We are long past the need for a draft. Shoulda been done already

[sampsonblk]

Regardless of you we feel about the "war," what does it say about the USA if we can't maintain an army of 160,000 for more than a few years? That's pathetic. What we're really talking about here is that GW Bush has insisted on keeping the horrors of this mess under wraps. So instead of exposing wide numbers of people to the realities of Iraq, he keeps sending the same few - over and over again.

If we had a draft a few years ago, virtually every American would have to finally put some serious thought into whether or not occupying Iraq is a good idea.

In any event, good idea or not, some day a necessary war will come. We need to have measures in place to make a real effort. What we have now is not worthy of this nation. Only 160,000? That's ridiculous. We can put more soldiers than that in the field.

Edit: mainly typos.

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. Might bring the freeps to their senses about what it means to try

& occupy a foreign country long term. Up till now it's all been on the back a a few hapless volunteers who mostly were just looking for a way to a better life.

[Heidi]

2. Where did you get the 160,000 figure?

My understanding is that the US (regular) Army as of March 2007 had 507,082 troops. Including the Army National Guard (333,177) and the US Army Reserve (189,005),that's a combined strength of 1,029,264.

Why do we need a draft when, US troops from all military branches total 2.3 million (including 53,000 paramiltary and more than 858,000 reserve troops)?

[Liberty Belle]

3. How dare you suggest stealing my kids for a war based on lies!

There's nobody wanting to volunteer because the causes are not just, period.

There were plenty of volunteers for our military before this moron in charge began invading countries for no reason and sending kids home in pieces!

I opposed this war from day one. I am livid when people suggest murdering my kids, 18 and 20, who are totally innocent, in order to provide endless cannon fodder for this war.

We need to end the invasion, bring our troops home, and have the US return to being a force for GOOD, not evil.

Then we'll be overrun with volunteers, believe me!

[BootinUp]

11. Your reaction is completely valid...I expect many more

would feel the same and it would lead to the correct foreign policy decision.

[Liberty Belle]

29. Excuse me, but I've already been marching in the streets of DC for years now.

My kids should not be put at risked and used as pawns by people like you just because some others still support this war. For you to suggest taking other people's kids makes you no better than the Republicans.

I urge you to rethink this senseless position, which is akin to the Democrats who say we'll just keep the war going because getting reelected is more important than doing what's right.

What's RIGHT is to say not one more child will be sent over there, and to do not one more thing to enable Bush/Cheney to keep this war going.

Democrats can end it easily by simply cutting off funds. Handing Bush the ability to draft our kids is just plain wrong!

[AndyTiedye]

4. If We Had a Draft, We'd Be Invading IRAN Already!

We already thought about it. We already said NO. 70% of us.

They aren't listening to us.

[sampsonblk]

12. No, we'd be back to a real foreign policy

If GOP voters had to face the prospect of putting their own blood where there mouth is, we'd be using diplomacy and common sense instead of invading everyone we don't like.

[AndyTiedye]

28. If 70% Opposition to the War Isn't Enough, What Is?

The 25% who still support the war think it's the next Crusade and they'd be happy to make their kids go.

[JTFrog]

32. They don't have to put their own blood

where their mouth is. The privileged buy deferments and Winnebago's to help with daddy's presidency. However, I don't have the money to buy my three teenage son's safety for the ten years it would take for a draft to have any effect on a war.

Talk like this makes my blood boil.

[fed-up]

5. and how many draft eligle children/relatives or friends do you have??? hell NO, my kid Won't go! nt

[sampsonblk]

13. The draft is not new in American history

Are you better than Civil War era Americans? WWII generation?

[AndyTiedye]

30. This is What Happened When They Enacted a Draft During the Civil War

[Totally Committed]

6. With all due respect to you...

You've lost your mind.

I hope your opinion is such only out of ignorance for what this would mean. Maybe you are too young to remember what the draft did to this country, and the young people it conscripted, sometimes against their will, to kill and maim others in the name of this country.

We don't need more soldiers in the field, we need less "fields". We don't need more war, but more PEACE. When they run out of soldiers, there will be no other choice but for them to sit down and make that peace. Why give them more fuel? WHY?

I can't believe I've read this, seriously proposed, on this board.

TC

[sampsonblk]

14. With all due respect to you...

your point is overly influenced by Vietnam. The draft is not new in American history, nor was it invented just for the Vietnam conflict. This country was not meant to have a large standing army. If we have a war, we draft people to fight in it for specified period of time. Then, when its over, they all go home.

So Vietnam sucked. Who didn't know that? But that doesn't bear on whether or not having a national draft is a good idea. Its more than a good idea, its common sense.

[Lil Missy]

7. A draft would be good for this reason

A draft would affect the rich and the sons of Senators and COngressmen alike. Would make bush/cheney supporters think twice about authorizing and supporting a war.

I believe it was Charlie Rangel a few years back promoted the idea of a draft for these very reasons.

[sampsonblk]

15. Exactly

And he's a Vietnam vet, and he certainly understands the advantages of having a draft.

The Vietnam conflict would still be going on today if citizens had as little connection to it as we have to this Iraq occupation.

[Hippo_Tron]

18. If a Democrat wins in 2008, the troops will be out in 2009

And the conflict will have lasted less time than the Vietnam War.

[IndianaGreen]

22. You haven't been paying attention to the Dems that are talking about a residual force

in Iraq, Occupation Lite if you will.

Kucinich, Gravel, and Richardson are the only Democratic candidates that will pull all US troops and personnel out of Iraq, and they won't keep any basis there either.

[Hippo_Tron]

23. As far as I understand, a residual force isn't going to be propping up the Malaki government

Mostly just making sure that the mess we made doesn't cross the borders.

[IndianaGreen]

24. It is an evil plot to reduce the profile of the war, taking it off the headlines, but continuing it

and the occupation. USA will end up with an occupation similar to Israel's.

There is no difference between the GOP neocons and the Dem neolibs. They are both imperialists!

[Hippo_Tron]

25. I don't agree, but I guess we won't know for quite some time

Even if a Democratic President wanted to continue Bush's failed occupation, it is political suicide. If the troops keep coming home in body bags, they won't get re-elected.

I'm not entirely sure that a residual force is a good idea, but I don't think it is going to be a continuation of the occupation. I also don't think that it is going to be propping up the Malaki government, either.

[AndyTiedye]

31. A Residual Force Does Not Require a Draft to Maintain It

If they say they need a draft to maintain the "residual force", it's not a residual force.

If they say they are getting out in a couple of years, they don't need a draft —
By the time you drafted them and trained them, the mission has gone away.
If they say they need a draft, they are not really planning on leaving Iraq.

[Hippo_Tron]

17. The rich will always find a way out of it

[JTFrog]

33. You mean the same rich guys

who avoided the draft their time around? Puuuuuuuuuuuhleeeeeeeeeeeeeze.

[Telly Savalas]

35. Why would Senators and Congresspeople pass a law to send their own kids

to war?

You honestly believe a draft wouldn't have a loophole to allow them to get out of it? If so, you're dreaming.

Moreover, those of you who are so gung-ho about shipping other people's kids off to Iraq, should enlist and go there yourselves. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[welshTerrier2]

8. the OP is drawing bad conclusions from accurate information

the OP is correct to conclude that the number of troops used to fight and occupy Iraq was far from adequate. the OP is also correct to highlight how badly those troops have been treated. the endless stop orders that have them recycled over and over and over is an outrage. troops who only serve a single tour often suffer a lifetime of mental anguish. what's been done to them by making them serve so long without adequate rest is both criminal and inhumane.

but to call for a draft to remedy this problem, however well intended, is a tragic error.

the solution is NOT to provide more troops; the solution is to, as Kucinich frequently says, "wage peace." we find ourselves at war so frequently because we have yet to find a way to rein in the entrenched powers that promote US imperialism abroad. As the saying goes, "if you want peace, work for justice." what is needed is NOT more cogs in the war machine; what is needed is a foreign policy that reflects the values of the American people instead of the greedy pursuits of multi-national corporations. The OP said "someday a necessary war will come"; I do NOT accept that premise.

what we have today is a situation where troops are cannon fodder to enrich Big Oil and Big Defense. No, it isn't fair to the troops we have. If we instituted a draft and had more troops, it still would not be fair. We should never empower a corrupt corporate cabal to have power over the lives and deaths of America's children. Only when those who lead this country are truly noble and value peace over war and value all human life over human greed should such ideas be worthy of consideration. And even then, not so much ...

they have taken our own country from us; they have stripped America of its soul; they have shown the rest of the world that we are an outlaw nation not concerned about the global community; they have shown the world that we will take whatever we want using a widely disproportionate share of planetary resources with no concern for its impact on other global citizens or on environmental catastrophes like global warming. with all that, are these the people to entrust with the lives of America's children? Toward what purpose would their lives be spent?

The draft may seem like a remedy for the horrible treatment our troops in Iraq have received. It may seem like a better course for "military preparedness." The real remedy is to take power away from the corporate-controlled madmen whose greed is only exceeded by their own inhumanity.

[Evergreen Emerald]

9. It is not a draft we need...people understand that the governement

is not keeping up with the bargain. Inlist and we will use your life only as a last resort. That was the deal. We don't need a draft. We need a government who will keep up their end of the bargain.

[sampsonblk]

21. The government goes as far as the people allow

The public needs to contantly stay on top of things. But in this environment, the public doesn't even pay attention to what's going on. And why should they?

I bet if more people actually had a chance of being involved, they'd friggin pay more attention and we wouldn't have some of these problems.

Newpaper readership is at an all-time low. WTF is going on here? People don't care about what's going on. Unless it affects them directly.

[BootinUp]

10. I agree, it would force a real commitment

or an acknowledgment that we should completely change the strategy toward diplomacy.

[Hippo_Tron]

16. How do you know that a necessary war will come where we need a large ground force

The last time that happened was World War II and we were not a superpower back then like we are today. MAD has basically made it so that we don't pick on anyone even close to our own size for fear of the conflict becoming nuclear.

[IndianaGreen]

20. What is a "necessary" war? We need your oil so we'll just take it?

The Founders did not believe in foreign entanglements and they saw permanent standing armies as a threat to freedom. It is long overdue for America to return to the Republic it was envisioned to be, not the cruel empire it has become.

[IndianaGreen]

19. Enough of this militarism! A draft will keep the GWOT going for decades!

I want the war in Iraq, and the phony GWOT, over and the troops returned home on a permanent basis.

[sampsonblk]

26. Please try to see past the current problems

I am talking about a long-term strategy so we won't find ourselves in this kind of situation again.

When Bush first proposed this garbage, many on our side were frightened to even openly oppose him. We have to avoid this in the future. But we also have to be able to muster enough troops when the time arrives. A draft, which I still maintain is common sense, solves both problems. The public will have sufficient skepticism and we will have the troops needed if there is a real threat.

War is a big deal. A VERY big deal. It should not be something supported by the many and waged by the few. If we go in, we all go in. Or else no war. As it should be.

[DutchLiberal]

27. The US already spends more on its military than all other nations combined.

The US, its society and its economy are being held hostage by the military industrial complex, like Eisenhower warned us of. Maybe you are looking for Republican Underground or War Mongering Underground?

[HughBeaumont]

34. Great. Your kids first.

One of those "Peace simply isn't possible at all, now or ever, so just DEAL with it" people, are you?

Funny thing about fishing, it never works out so well for the bait:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3445117#3447206

:eyes:

[sampsonblk]

36. Did my time already

My family has served in almost every war we've had. And I have done my time also. For a legitimate cause, I'd go again in a heartbeat.

When push comes to shove, as it often does, someone has to go. We can't all be pious free riders.

[JTFrog]

37. And there is the

caveat of your statement right there: FOR A LEGITIMATE CAUSE.

[sampsonblk]

39. Well, YEAH...

I am not advocating that everyone sign up to go to Iraq. Rather the opposite. If we had a draft in place, we would be in Iraq at all. But we would be prepared in case of a legitimate war. That's my basic point.

[NaturalHigh]

38. No way.

You don't get to steal my kids away for war, sampsonblk. I don't care if you're a neocon or a liberal trying to make a point. I've served my time too, and I didn't serve to give up my kids to you or anybody else.

[sampsonblk]

40. We are no better than Americans of years past

Do you think we are better than everyone else who had to send their children?
Well, we're not. If our time comes, its only right that we make the sacrifice.

[NaturalHigh]

43. You feel free to make the sacrifice...

of sending your kids off to war. Maybe you should ask their opinions first?

If you're talking WWII, maybe I can see your point. If you're talking Vietnam or it's remake, Iraq, I will reiterate that the government is not stealing away my kids to fight in some useless war.

[sampsonblk]

44. NOW we agree...

"...to fight in some useless war."

Now we are on the same page. If we had a draft available today, in the information age, the days of useless wars would be over. People would pay attention out of necessity, and the information would be available.

[USA_1]

41. Same Old Shit ...

Thread after thread on the same old shit.

Are you people ever going to listen, read, or learn?

How many more times must people like me tell you that we do NOT need a goddamn draft?

If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.

Since you won't read, let me post that again for your good:



If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.


If you want to stop another fucking war, all you need to do is to impose a 100 % excess profits tax on all war profits.




Did you read it?

Shall I repeat myself, again??

[USA_1]

42. Not One of The Pro Draft Loonies Replies ...

... like I said, same old shit.

When are these idiots going to wake up?

Could it be that maybe they are actually Republicans who want to keep the White House and Congress under their control??