Chavez to propose constitutional reforms Changes expected to allow him to be re-elected indefinitely

[babsbunny]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070815/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_constitutional_reform;_ylt=AkSPyk5GNEbZo6j6Mmqh1PYUewgF

By CHRISTOPHER TOOTHAKER, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 5 minutes ago


CARACAS, Venezuela - President Hugo Chavez was presenting his blueprint Wednesday for sweeping constitutional changes expected to allow him to be re-elected indefinitely, a move his critics call a threat to democracy.

Chavez, who is seeking to transform Venezuelan society along socialist lines, announced late Tuesday that he would unveil his proposal before crowds of supporters at the National Assembly. He predicted it would bring renewed political upheaval to Venezuela.

[aquart]

1. Georgie's gonna be so envious.

"How come Hugo can do it, Poppy??? How come him and not meeeeee????"

[KaptBunnyPants]

10. It only works for Hugo because people like him.

I'd support the repeal of term limits for POTUS today. Let George run again. Please

[Colobo]

2. Had GWB tried that over here, DU would be on fire.

Chavez does it and he gets love from a huge number of idealistic DUers who think left-wing authoritarianism is fine.

[Kagemusha]

3. So why is Canada considered a democracy at all then?

The same PM and same party can be in power indefinitely provided they're re-elected.

[Colobo]

4. Do they have a PM who is against free speech? Where are the Canadians

who are fleeing the country because of political persecution? Who many Canadians have had their land and property taken away by the state to give it away to some people that never worked to earn it?

[KaptBunnyPants]

9. What bullshit you spout.

Chavez is pro-free speech. However, there as here, you are not allowed to call for the violent overthrow of the government, as that media station had done. No one is fleeing Venezuela for political persecution, they have no camps, no paramilitaries, you are just full of crap. And land reform needs to happen, in fact, we used to recommend that policy before the neoliberals took over in the 1970s. For an Obama supporter you are remarkable gullible and right wing.

[Colobo]

16. As a Latin American, I have little sympathy for the Lat. Am. left

and with reason. And, by the way, I guess you think the thousands of Venezuelans that are coming to Florida are coming here just because they like the sun over here. You need to talk to some of them... they will tell you what the Hugo the Clown won't tell you.

[eridani]

34. Good riddance to bad rubbish

The whiteys have no inherent right to continue to treat their Indio fellow citizens as disposable human garbage.

[sanskritwarrior]

37. Yes down with whitey.........

:eyes:

Oy vey the stupid in this thread burns.......

[KaptBunnyPants]

44. You think a country that is 10% white should be politically dominated by whites?

Are you sure you're a Democrat? I thought we got rid of the White Man's Burden.

[sanskritwarrior]

55. Hmm

I checked my voter ID card, it definitely said Democrat on it, but forgive me I have not properly worshipped at the altar of Chavez........ :eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

58. Voter ID card should not have party affiliation on it

:eyes:

[dugggy]

26. My wife has relatives in Venezuela

and the stories we hear from them do not jive with yours.
But then you must have better spy network in Venezuela so
your views must be closer to the truth.:sarcasm:

[KaptBunnyPants]

27. I'm sorry your wife's Apartheid supporting family is having to share their country

with the indigenous population. My heart bleeds for them. It must have been nice to have 80% of the population living without electricity, health care, or wealth of any kind while your family benefited from the plunder of their natural resources under corrupt colonial governments. How unfair it is, to have natural resources wasted giving savages these things, as if they were people.

By the way, don't use the sarcasm tag. If you do sarcasm right, you won't need it.

[eridani]

32. If you're so concerned about free speech in Venezuela--

--just go down there and start your own radio station. It's perfectly legal as long as it's low-power, unlike in the US where that sort of thing is known as "pirate radio" and gets the FCC on your ass big time.

No one ought to have property rights if asserting them amounts to indirect murder. If Bill Gates could afford to buy all the water in the Pacific Northwest and use it for the world's biggest outdoor swimming pool in Eastern Washingon, would it be OK if he did that? No? Then why should elite thugs in Venezuela be able to own vast tracts that they don't use for growing food? Growing food on land is "working to earn it"; inheriting it from ancestors who committed genocide to acquire it in the first place is not.

Property rights will shortly to cease to exist in a world of 6 billion unless public regulation places very strict limits on how much any individual (or corporate entity) is allowed to own. Make the category of property owners numerous enough, and there will be a constituency for defending property rights. Otherwise not.

[ima_sinnic]

51. your ignorance is stunning (nt)

[billyoc]

6. Well, a lot of countries don't have term limits. I wouldn't mind getting rid

of the 22nd amendment. I always thought it was a little undemocratic.

[IndianaGreen]

13. Chavez's proposal has to be approved in a national referendum. Let's put the war to a referendum!

Our Congress doesn't trust the American people to decide anything by national referenda.

[Semper_FiFi]

8. I've asked myself the same thing whilst reading pro-Chavez posts here on DU

as well. I don't get it either.:shrug:

[JDPriestly]

17. It must be the enemy of my enemy theory. Chavez is like

a pop idol, and he may have done some good things. But he is sowing the seeds for future dictatorships. He has amassed too much power in his own hands. The Soviets used to call the kind of relationship he has with people "cult of personality." His power flows too much from himself and too little from the people in my view. I don't question his sincerity. I question what he is sincere about. I do not think he is nearly as devoted to further democracy as he is to furthering himself as a popular idol. If he were in this country, he would have a TV show. He probably would not be a politician at all.

[KaptBunnyPants]

23. Name one usurped power.

He is popular and well supported politically. The fact that he won't accept a geopolitical order in which brown people are our slaves is what you really hate, which reflects poorly on you as a human being.

[JDPriestly]

30. I don't see him as building democratic institutions.

I realize that is difficult, but I think his personal popularity is enough for him. I don't have a sense that his vision goes beyond his lifetime.

[Bongo Prophet]

66. I hope the clinics and schools and universities outlast him. And the land reforms and jobs and...

If Chavez did nothing but build statues of himself, I would agree with you.
I am not extreme lefty by ideology, but judge "by the fruits of people's actions" -- and there have been MANY direct positive actions taken.
He is not a rock star to me. I don't really care that he bashed Bush or not.
What is he doing for his fellow Venezuelans?

Now, by building free universities, he threatens the paid universities.
By land reform, he threatens land owners who have passed down generations of oppression.
By giving people food and bricks, he "buys" their love.
And so on.
One makes enemies with such drastic changes.
The propaganda is thick, and takes time and research to get through the fog.

If we just stay out of countries' business, at LEAST by not doing covert destabilization, the PEOPLE might have a chance at a future past the OIL age.
If they don't do drastic reforms now while oil is priced high, yet still plentiful, they will perhaps NEVER have a chance.

Globalization SUCKS if you are the little colony slave labor worker.

[ProudDad]

69. You're not paying attention

Chavez is ALL ABOUT building democratic institutions.

He knows that is the only way the Bolivarian Revolution can out last him...

The central points of Bolivarianism, as extolled by Chávez, are:

1. Venezuelan economic and political sovereignty (anti-imperialism).

2. Grassroots political participation of the population via
popular votes, referendums and Communal Councils (participatory democracy).

3. Economic self-sufficiency (in food, consumer durables, et cetera).

4. Instilling in people a national ethic of patriotic service.

5. Equitable distribution of Venezuela's vast oil revenues.

6. Eliminating corruption.

[eridani]

35. Does singlehandedly accounting for half the world's murders of union organizers--

--sow the seeds of dictatorship? That's what happens in Columbia, though the Pavlov's dogs who slobber on command when the MSM mentions Venezuela never seem to notice this. Or one of Venezuela's other neighbors--guess who?

A tale of two countries--which is which?
Hint--both are in South America.

A. Granted its president the right to rule by decree in limited areas in April 2007.
B. Granted its president the right to rule by decree in limited areas in January 2007.

A. Its president blocked the renewal of the broadcast licenses of two TV stations and three radio stations in April 2007.
B. Its president blocked the renewal of the broadcast licenses of one TV station in May 2007 amd has made threatening noises about a second.

A. During its last election cycle, its president was elected with 51% of the vote.
B. During its last election cycle, its president was elected with 67% of the vote.

A. Almost nobody but hard core internets tubes users know anything about what's been happening in this country recently.
B. A lot of users of regular media in the US and elsewhere have heard the name of this country and worry that it might become a dictatorship if it isn't already.

A. On the subject of this country we hear from the US House, the US Senate, and leading presidential candidates--crickets.
B. On the subject of this country we hear from the US House, the US Senate, and leading presidential candidates--thundering and righteous condemnation.


Vanna--the envelope, please!

[IndianaGreen]

12. Unlike Venezuela, where Chavez is following the Constitution, the US has a unitary Presidency

The measure to eliminate term limits for the Presidency, which is how our own Constitution was until a Republican Congress put term limits for fear of another Democratic Roosevelt, has to be passed by the National Assembly and then has to be approved by the voters on a national referendum, a point that seems to have been missed by the AP writer.

In America, the Democratic Congress has surrendered all powers to Bush (remember Pelosi's "impeachment is off the table"). Bush is a unitary President. Bush has all the powers of the sovereign: he is the legislator, the judge, and the executioner! A far cry from Constitutional Venezuela, or the old American Republic.

[Bongo Prophet]

63. You think Obama should invade or teach em a lesson? Or just talk and trade peacefully?

I THINK Obama would be willing to discuss trade and human rights with them.
Of course, there might be a human rights issue with rendition to secret gulags that a 3rd world dictatorship always does.
And they can start with closing Guantanamo.
Oh wait. That's us.
Chavez sends dissenters from outside countries to the AIRPORT - WITH THEIR BAGS. "Good day, sir!"
We put them in cells and torture them. Who is the devil here?
Our buddies in Colombia chunk people out of choppers, or chop them up with chainsaws. Yet we give them $$$

But I am SURE Obama will end CIA renditions, and Guantanamo too, right?
I hope so.Heck, even McCain said he would close Guantanamo!


And he SURELY wouldn't invade or let CIA/USAID destabilize our neighbors to the south, or support Death squads in Colombia, right?
I sure hope not!

As a supporter of Obama, do have any info on this?
I am having a hard time finding anything.

[Robbien]

5. FauxNews and O'Reilly are going to love this. They will repeatedly

say how very bad Chavez is and we the big bad USA should go over there and bomb Venezuela back to the stone ages and take over OUR oil that that damn uppity Chavez believes belongs to the stupid brown skinned potential illegal alien Venezuelans.

[KaptBunnyPants]

7. In other words, he's pushing for a repeal of term limits.

A threat to democracy, what chutzpah. Term limits are an affront to democracy as they deny people the choice of reselecting the current government. The only reason we have them is because business was afraid of FDR.

[IndianaGreen]

11. Misleading AP story. The entire measure will face a national referendum.

The measure is to eliminate Presidential term limits. It has to pass the National Assembly, and then the measure will be presented to a national referendum.

Having the voters decide whether an elected office is going to be term limited or not, is the essence of democracy. We have done the same thing in Indiana.

Remember that the GOP kicked itself in the ass when they term limited the Presidency, not knowing the Ike and Reagan would turned out to be so popular.

Constrast Chaves with the coup plotters who, after taking power from Chavez for a brief time, suspended all civil liberties and abolished elections.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

40. But not a free or fair one.

Chavez'z personal control of the media and most of the apparatus of state, and his enthusiasm for (ab)using them to support his personal agendas, will make that impossible.

The irony is that Chavez quite possibly *could* win a genuinely free and fair referendum. But he doesn't see any reason to try and do so, when he doesn't have to.

[IndianaGreen]

49. You been watching too much Faux. The bulk of Venezuela's media is in opposition hands

We have too many uninformed Democrats, but we also have those Democrats like Kerry in 2004 and Hillary in 2007 that have aligned themselves with the Venezuelan elites.

You stop reading the State Department's pronouncements on Venezuela. They lie about Chavez just as they did about WMD in Iraq.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

52. Remember when

the members of this message board were smarter than the average FOX News viewer?

[Bongo Prophet]

64. I remember thinking so, at least. Maybe I was wrong.

Or maybe the growth of DU has pulled us down the bell curve toward reactionary end.
The quality of thinking, the willingness to argue from fact, rather than taking a quick AP glance, then trashing and mischaracterizing, etc. - are all out of style now.

Maybe it's just---
Primary season, whoohoo!

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

75. I think growth may have something to do with it.

Also a lot of people here are still scared of the Republicans. Kind of like a wife who is scared of an abusive husband. "If a don't make too much noise or too much of a fuss about certain issues, he/Republicans might leave me/us alone. A lot of these people are willfully ignorant about subjects like Chavez and socialism. Forget them! They are, in my opinion lost causes. Then there are those who deep down know it's bullshit. However, they fear how others will see them. They see reports like this on the Fox News Channel and think of the people in "Middle America" who watch Fox News. They think about all the people on Democratic blogs and message boards who don't believe it or dig below the surface to find out the truth. They say to themselves "we can't allow folks in the heartland to believe this is what Democrats think". What they don't realize is Repubs will attack them no matter what. It doesn't matter what you say Republicans will twist your words. It doesn't matter who you nominate (Kucinich, Hillary, Holy Joe, Zell Miller), the Fox News audience will see that person as the face of everything they despise (Socialist, terrorist sympathizers, and godless secular humanists all rolled into one!).

It's too bad, a lot of Democrats(on DU, and in Washington) still have a "2003" mindset. Tiptoeing around issues, not wanting to stir anything up, or take what they believe might be an unpopular position on any issue. If this past election proved anything, its that Americans, even those in "red" America were not satisfied with the direction the Republicans were taking the country. Democrats overcame a huge margin in the house, with all the redistricting of the '90's that's something that doesn't happen by accident. People, many just a few years ago would never think of voting Dem did so, giving the party control. If the Democrats rest on their laurels they won't be in the majority for long. (I understand this paragraph has veered from the original topic, but it's important to note.)

Bottom line, I believe Democrats from every level of government should tell the truth. Tell the truth and let the chips fall.


Sorry about the form and structure of this reply, you deserved a reply and I was only able to type it at work.

[ProudDad]

70. Oh, right....

:sarcasm:

"Chavez'z personal control of the media"

"Most of Venezuela's mass media are privately operated and derive most of their revenues from advertising, subscriptions, and sale or distribution of copyrighted materials. A small proportion of the Venezuelan television, newspaper, and radio markets is controlled by state-owned outlets."

Don't you knee-jerk anti-Chavistas check ANYTHING????

"The irony is that Chavez quite possibly *could* win a genuinely free and fair referendum. But he doesn't see any reason to try and do so, when he doesn't have to."

He's already won 4 elections and an attempted coup in the last 8 years. How many fucking elections does he have to win for you to even notice through the M$M right-wing fog in the brain, eh?

[JDPriestly]

14. He is popular, but has no sense of democracy.

George Washington served one term.

[rjones2818]

20. You have no sense of history.

Washington served two terms: www.nps.gov/revwar/about_the_revolution/george_washington.html

:evilgrin:

[JDPriestly]

28. woops! I thought he served just one term. Sorry.

[JDPriestly]

29. It's Adams who served only one. I thought he served two.

[KaptBunnyPants]

24. FDR served four terms. What a scumbag.

Do you have a reason for supporting term limits?

[cmkramer]

62. He served three complete terms

FDR was elected to four terms, but he died at the beginning of his fourth term.

[Forkboy]

15. Things seem totally shitty down there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3452848

[Semper_FiFi]

25. You should move to Caracas

I hear life is wonderful there right now. You'd love it!

Send us all a post card when you get there.:hi:

[Forkboy]

31. I'd do it if I could.

I'd love to live in some other countries and experience their culture.Lord knows I've experienced enough of ours,which seems to consist of Big Macs and Carrot Top.

[eridani]

36. At least one DUer already has, and is sending back reports

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3452848

[ProudDad]

71. Ah, Amerika, love it or leave it

take it here: www.freerepublic.com

Send us all a post card when you get there. :hi:

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

21. Stalin approved of torture, and the US approves of torture

Now, who is the Stalinist? Using your perverted logic, perhaps we should take ourselves out!

[Forkboy]

22. You've become one of my favorite posters in such a short time.

Comedy was becoming scarce around here.

You're real big on sacrifice so perhaps you should get yourself a ticket and go do the deed yourself."We must sacrifice",and all that...so you first.

[althecat]

42. Good lord Orin Hatch has come back to life!

[tkmorris]

47. Chavez is a Stalinist?

That has got to be the dumbest thing I have seen written on these boards in a long time. Ignorance is not a thing to be proud of my friend. It may be comforting to have so many friends, but that group is still stupid.

Take a chance. LEARN something.

[Bongo Prophet]

67. I think Democratsin08 is a parody, but it is hard to tell. Pat Robertson "take him out" talk

We should just "TAKE OUT" anybody we want, dammit!

Let's roll!
On the floor
covering our ears
gouging out our eyes
cutting our nose
to spite our...something.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

74. Placing a reply here for future reference. -nt

[justinaforjustice]

19. A.P.'s Anti-Chavez Attacks Are Baseless.

President Chavez, who has won four democratic elections since 1998, is giving his speech about constitutional reform right now on my TV set here in Merida, Venezuela. The democratically elected National Assembly has given his proposals repeated standing ovations. Polls put his support at 62 percent. Even before he can finish his speech, the Associated Press is condemning his proposals.

Removing term limits on re-election of the political leader will put Venezuela on par with such other horrible dictatorships as Canada and Great Britain.

The Chavez government, strictly according to the dictates of a Venezuelan law passed years before Chavez was elected, declined to renew the broadcasting license of the privately owned RCTV corporation because, among other things, it had repeatedly violated laws against broadcasting pornography, cigarette and liquor ads, then refused to pay the fines for the these violations.

Much worse, the owner of RCTV, Marcel Granier, had used his TV stations to support the illegal overthrow of the democratically elected government and actively participated in the coup which kidnapped President Chavez and fly him off to a small island off the coast of Venezuela. Marcel Granier was physically present at the declaration of would be dictator, Pedro Carmona, who thereupon abolished the National Assembly, shut down the Venezuelan Supreme Court and arrested other duly elected Venezuelan representatives.

When millions of Venezuelans took to the streets to demand the return of their president, Granier's TV stations didn't report that fact for two days, showing Hollywood movies and cartoons instead of reporting the news and showing the massive public demonstrations by Chavez supporters. Months later, Granier participated in fomenting an oil strike, led by the former CEO of the PDVSA oil company. A strike which was not about labor issues, but which was purely political, like the U.S. supported strikes against President Allende in Chile in the 1970's, it was intended to bring down the democratically elected government.

As late as 2006, RCTV was announcing that the 2006 election was fraudulent, a week before the vote, and called upon the population to take to the streets to depose President Chavez after the vote. Despite the fact that the election had been closely monitored by international observers and the Carter Center, who all reported that the election was honest, Granier's RCTV still keep broadcasting accusations of fraud and calling for the population to rise up against the democratic vote.

After all this, did President Chavez put Granier in jail, where he most assuredly belonged? No. He was never prosecuted. Five years after the coup events, and after numerous violations of the broadcasting code, the Venezuelan version of the "FCC" declined to renew RCTV's broadcasting license. They turned his frequency over to a public TV corporation, similar to our Public Broadcasting System.

How terribly undemocratic President Chavez is, he followed the law, as Granier certainly had not.

Eighty to ninety percent of the numerous newspapers in Venezuela are privately owned and openly and actively oppose Chavez. Their frequently inaccurate reporting on actions of the Chavez government provides the grist for the U.S. State Department's bellicose attacks on Chavez, or, just as likely, the U.S. State Department writes the news articles castigating Chavez which are then published by the local opposition press.

RCTV had only 6.6 per cent of the viewing public. Refusing to renew its license hardly shut down free speech in Venezuela, especially as RCTV is now distributing its very skewed views via a cable channel here. It has already violated the Venezuelan cable requirements by refusing to register as a Venezuelan network.


President Bush bombed the office of the Al Jazeera news network in Afghanistan, shot down one of their best news reporters in Iraq, and was all set to bomb the main office of Al Jazeera in Quatar until stopped from doing so by the consternation of Tony Blair. No one from the United States has standing to complain about attacks on the free press by President Chavez. He is not a dictator, that is what Bush wants to be.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Donald Ian Rankin]

38. Does anyone still seriously claim Chavez will ever willingly relinquish power democratically?

It is undeniable that Chavez currently has a democratic mandate.

There is, however, also no doubt that he is taking steps to ensure that it will never be possible for anyone to challenge him by democratic means.

If he died or left power today then his legacy would, on balance, be a positive one, I think. I think we can be pretty much certain that as time goes on his popularity will wain, he will have to resort to grosser and grosser abuses to stay in power, and this will cease to be the case.

Supporting Chavez simply because he says nesty things about Bush, and presents himself as a "man of the people" as far too many DUers do, is unforgivably naive. Chavez cares about his own power first and everything else second.

[KaptBunnyPants]

41. If he is ever defeated democratically, then yes.

He has followed the law to the letter. And please state the steps he has taken to make it impossible to "challenge him by democratic means", if you have any argument besides innuendo. Finally, thank you, oh sensible Democrat, for telling me that I am naive and an idiot who gives support to political leaders because I am stupid enough to be satisfied with platitudes. It couldn't be because Chavez is the first native Venezuelan to ever hold the office of President. It couldn't be that Chavez's administration is bringing electricity and health care to vast swathes of the Venezuelan population which had before been living in huts. And there's no way it's because Hugo Chavez is using his nation's oil money to help poor nations settle their debts to predatory neoliberal organizations like the world bank, which normally use those debts to force nations into accepting ill-advised privatization schemes that serve to drain all the remaining resources out of the country. No, you're right, I blindly love him because I heard him insult Bush once.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

45. Let's see...

Taking personal control of the media.

Using that control for fairly consistent personal propaganda.

Ordering the expulsion of foreigners who criticise him.

Removing all constitutional obstacles to his remaining president as long as he wants

Giving away state oil to foreigners for the sole purpose of increasing his personal reputation abroad.

Keeping the turnover in his cabinet very high, preventing anyone else establishing any form of recognition or power base.

Use of the national guard to supress opposition protests and demonstrations, leading AI to write to him to express concern about the level of brutality involved.

Removal of oversight of his government.


These are not the actions of a man committed to Democracy.

It may be that you've been taken in by his short-termist economic policies (if it were possible to continue to do what he's been doing on a long-term basis, there'd be a lot to be said for Chavez's economics, but unfortunately it isn't) rather than by his contempt for Bush. It makes little odds either way, frankly.

[KaptBunnyPants]

46. Taken personal control of the media, for God sake, the hyperbole never stops.

He shut down one station, legally, and for good reason. And wanting a repeal of term limits is a crime against Democracy? Replacing subordinates is a crime against Democracy? How are term limits even democratic? As far as his "suppression" of demonstrations, he didn't have them shot nor do anything which is out of character for a modern Democracy. There were some conflicts between groups of protesters, and civil tensions were rising, but at no time did he have them attacked. And remember, this is after a real, US backed coup attempt against him, so the restraint he is showing in his response is quite remarkable. I keep waiting for him to do something bad, like I would expect from a world leader. But if all his opponents can say about him are exaggerated quibbles like this, I am left with the hopeful feeling that he may be the real deal after all.

Oh, yeah, don't count on Venezuela running out of money soon. They have huge deposits of untapped oil, which were previously too expensive to mine. But in our global energy crunch, which doesn't appear to be going anywhere for a long time, Venezuela will do very well.

[eridani]

54. There was NO shutdown of any TV station

Geez, it really smarts when supporters of Venezuela use that meme. Et tu, Brute?

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/081507D.shtml

Most consumers of the international media will be surprised to find that the controversy over Venezuela's oldest TV station, RCTV, is still raging. We were repeatedly informed that President Hugo Chavez "shut down" the station on May 27th. But in fact the station was never "shut down" - since there is no censorship in Venezuela. Rather, the Venezuelan government decided not to renew the broadcast license that granted RCTV a monopoly over a section of the publicly-owned frequencies.

This is a big distinction, although the U.S. and international press blurred it considerably. Jose Miguel Insulza, the head of the Organization of American States, noted last month that the "Venezuelan government is empowered to do what it did (non-renewal of the license)" and cited Brazilian President Lula Da Silva's statement that not renewing RCTV's broadcast license was as democratic an act as granting it. Insulza added that "democracy is very much in force in Venezuela."

These comments were not reported in the U.S. or other major media. Nor was Lula's original statement of the same argument. Nor was the statement of Lula's top foreign policy advisor, Marco Aurelio Garcia, who said "there are few countries in the world with as much freedom of the press as in Venezuela."

RCTV has not laid off any of its 3000 employees, and may reach as much as half the population through its cable and satellite operations. But the station is now battling the government again, claiming that it should not be subject to government regulation - including the law, which pre-dates Chavez, that domestic stations carry the president's speeches - because it is an international station. The government argues that RCTV is a domestic outlet because almost all of its production and audience are in Venezuela.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KaptBunnyPants]

43. Announcing you're defeat before you leave?

I guess you know you're wrong and don't want to take the time for one of us to prove it. Mighty courtious of you, although it does seem a little pathetic.

[tkmorris]

48. And yet no one who opposes Chavez ever has an argument

They just post snarky crap talking about how the DU groupthink likes him so to oppose him is foolish.

Oh wait, let me check your post. Yep! Fact fucking free! Do you have an argument to make or is that too much hassle?

[sanskritwarrior]

56. Don't have to post facts

people that truly love liberty recognize Chavez for the Fascist in Progressives clothing that he is......


Why post facts when one can just watch people trip all over themselves defending Chavez for the freedom stealing acts he commits?

Someone posts a link showing el presidente for life chavez stripping away a freedom from the people of Venezuela and the faux progressive crowd scream bloody murder denigrating the character of anyone that dares to challenge High Priest of the Far Left chavez........

I don't need facts when the behaviors of the fanatics prove my point for me quite nicely.......

[eridani]

57. Whose freedom has he stolen?

The United States has been stripping freedom away from the people of South America for the last 200 year.

[IndianaGreen]

59. Chavez has stolen the freedom of the ruling class to exploit the working class

Some people here see themselves as warriors of the ruling class as they wage war to keep themselves in power.

[eridani]

60. I sort of thought so myself n/t

[sanskritwarrior]

61. Lord

there is no talking with you if you truly believe that....... :eyes:

[eridani]

73. I suppose so

Pardon me if I don't join you in cheering the US supported terrorists who rape nuns and stuff the bloody underwear in their mouths, and chop the heads off of union organizers and leave them arranged on dinner plates for the further enjoyment of their families.

[Forkboy]

72. "I don't need facts"

Damn good thing because you never have any.

[IndianaGreen]

50. Why? Are you itching to go to war against the people of Venezuela?

Haven't we spent too many lives already in Iraq and, if Cheney has his way, in Iran?

[Bongo Prophet]

65. It seems a lot of people here are ready to go all Ann Coulter on Chavez. Except the religion is WTO

And I say CHAVEZ, because they speak as if they invade/overturn a PERSON they don't like, with little regard for the citizens themselves.

And the Bushlites say. "Just tell him to cut that shit out" while chomping on a dinner roll.
Pathetic.

And if you don't like that, you are a "worshipper falling down at the shrine of that guy we hate."
Either with us or against us!
Easier than thinking, I guess.

[ProudDad]

68. Ah, such a democratic suggestion

"American would do well to destabilize his regime again at the very least"

Oh, and that worked so goddamned well in Guatemala, Iran, Cuba, Iraq, Nicaragua, El Salvador, etc. etc. etc.

Take it here, they'd love your idea: www.freerepublic.com

As for Chavez, he's trying to do something FOR his people and for the Earth. I hope he succeeds.

It's unlikely though. He's going up against a lot of repressive, evil forces from the right-wing who would love to "destabilize" his efforts and the efforts of the People of Venezuela...

[Progressive Friend]

53. It is interesting that the Federalist Papers oppose term limits for the office of president

The Federalist Papers, written by James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and John Jay, opposed placing term limits on the office of presidency. They have some interesting arguments specifically for this.

I always like to point this out, when Americans are "outraged" when another country considers electing their president more than twice. Considering that the three men who did the most to encourage the adaptation of the US Constitution opposed term limits.

I also posted this message in the other thread about this very same topic.

[IndianaGreen]

76. Our pal Uribe in Colombia just got rid of term limits. Why the double standard with Chavez?

May I point out that our pal President Uribe of Colombia just changed the law and removed term limits from the Presidency in order to run for reelection. I don't see anyone accusing Uribe of being a tyrant since he followed the law in changing the law. Why the double-standard with Chavez?

It is disgusting how DLC/conservative Democrats parrot the Republican rightwing. And these are the same "Democrats" that are most opposed to impeaching Bush and Cheney. Their love for "freedom" is as genuine as Clinton's "love" for "that woman, Ms Lewinsky."

Colombia re-election ban lifted
10/20/2005 - Le Monde, Edicom, AP, BBC Mundo, BBC News

Colombia's Constitutional Court has ruled that President Alvaro Uribe can stand for re-election next year, overturning a single-term limit.

Opinion polls currently make the right-wing Mr Uribe a clear favourite.

Mr Uribe had argued for a change in the law, saying he needs four more years to implement his tough policies against Colombia's left-wing guerrilla groups.

Opponents of the move said allowing re-election in Colombia would give presidents too much power.

Mr Uribe is one of Washington's strongest allies in South America, where many governments have recently shifted to the left.

Judges took almost a month to reach the decision, after examining 18 challenges to the amendment.

"The court decided to declare as reasonable within the Constitution the legislative act allowing the re-election of the president of the republic," Constitutional Court President Manuel Jose Cepeda said.

http://www.educweb.org/webnews/ColNews-Oct05/English/Articles/Reelectionautoriseepourle.html