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justinaforjustice Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 08:20 PM
Original message
My Life in Venezuela: Care at New Public Clinics
Although I've longed worked as a lawyer in the U.S., for the last five years I haven't had any medical insurance. Why?

I couldn't manage to pay for it and make a hefty mortgage payment and put a child through college, even a state college. Something had to go, so I gave up the insurance with a prayer that I wouldn't get sick. I was lucky, I didn't get sick. Many people in the same situation aren't so fortunate.

In February of this year, I retired from law to begin a new, less stressful career, that of teaching English as a foreign language. I choose to come to Venezuela to teach because I wanted to see at first hand what the "Bolivarian Revolution" was all about.

I've been here for eight months, and what I've seen here has impressed me. One area in which Venezuela has seen enormous success is in the provision of health care to its citizens.

I've had occasion to need to see a doctor on two occasions since moving here. My first visit to the free medical clinic, Barrio El Dentro, located in a freshly painted old colonial hospital building in Merida, came about because I had run out of a medication proscribed in the Hawaii and needed a new prescription.

I had learned about Barrio El Dentro after touring the clinic last year with the Global Exchange program the previous year, and had been impressed with its cleanliness, modern equipment and the wide range of services it provided, including acupuncture and even aromatherapy.

As a foreigner, I was initially reluctant to burden the El Barrio clinic with my minor needs, but after trying without success to locate an English-speaking private doctor, I went to the Barrio El Dentro clinic where, after a 5 minute wait, my blood pressure was tested by the nurse and then I was shown into the office of a young Venezuelan doctor who spoke fluent English.

After a ten minute chat about my drug needs and medical history, then on how he came to learn English and how I came to Venezuela, I left the clinic with my needed prescription. The charge? Nada (none).

My second visit to the clinic a few months later was occasioned by a dizzy spell. After a ten minute wait, I was tested by the nurse and then shown into the office of a lovely, cheerful female Venezuelan doctor who did not speak English.

Somehow, with my poor Spanish, I managed to answer her questions about my symptoms. She ordered a blood test at the clinic's laboratory for the next morning, telling me to return in the afternoon to see her.

At seven o'clock the next morning, I arrived at the clinic to find a line of folks waiting for tests but, after about a half an hour, my blood was taken and off I went. The charge? Nada.

When I returned that afternoon, after being duly tested by the nurse, the same doctor reviewed all of the tests with me, which were thankfully normal, questioned me further about symptoms, examined me and then wrote out a prescription.

We then chatted for another five minutes about her need for English in using the computer and my need to improve my Spanish. It was extremely friendly and relaxed, very unlike all the rushing around that was a doctor's life at Kaiser. The charge? Nada.

Was I happy with the service? You bet, especially as I hadn't been left naked and freezing in a treatment room for ages with only a paper doily on, as was par for the course at Kaiser.

And I didn't have to pay out thousands of dollars in insurance, not even any co-payments. That was a shock to my Americanized system, but I managed to gratefully survive the shock!

Today I had a conversation with one of my students, a thirty year old married woman who works as a graphic designer for a major Christian religious group. She and her statistician husband are preparing for a trip to the U.S. where they will be working temporarily with another church group in the mid west.

This woman is very much involved in her religious group and is by no means political, but she told me that before Chavez was elected, the medical system in Venezuela was just awful. There were very long waiting lines at the private clinics, the services were poor, the places were dirty and ambulances virtually non-existent. For poor people, there was virtually no access to medical or dental care at all.

Now she goes to the local public clinic near her home and is highly satisfied with their no fee services, which include medications. She mentioned that a friend has a heart condition that requires a thousand dollars worth of medication a month, but he now gets all his medication with no charge at the clinic.

She told me that since 1998, the medical services in private clinics have improved as well, apparently the new public clinics have set the standards that the private clinics are now emulating.

The American economy generates more than enough money to pay for good medical services for all its citizens. This is a Constitutional Right here in Venezuela. We must make it a a legal right in the U.S. as well and not accept anything less that fully free medicine and drugs.

If Venezuela can do it, so can we!

I might add that Dennis Kucinich is the only presidential candidate with a universal government-funded health care plan. If we can get Dennis elected, the U.S. will have a health care program that covers everyone, with no "profits" getting siphoned off to insurance companies. Why should we accept less?

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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for your story
It is what I've heard from several others who visited Venezuela.

Healthcare and Education is where our Billions should be invested instead of throwing it away on the defense industry and uber-rich tax cuts.
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ooga booga Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. agreed
We need accounts like this to keep the healthcare reform movement on the front burner.

As Ben Cohen points out with his oreos on www.truemajority.org, we can make some headway on this and other issues by idverting a small percentage of the lavish defense budget.

What really chaps me about the opposition to healthcare reform is that it's made up of people who all seem to have "gold standard" healthcare coverage but don't feel that anyone else should have it. (Sorta like the hawks and chickenhawks who are so in favor of the war in Iraq but who don't feel duty bound to actually send themselves or their kids to fight.)
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Health care is one area that absolutely does not require more taxes
As Kucinich always says, "We are already paying for universal health care; we just aren't getting it." Instead, Kucinich proposes raiding the Pentagon budget for college tuition.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well,I hear they suck as much Iran and Cuba,and I always believe my media.
They haven't lied to me yet. ;)
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
59. Yup...
the M$M is *always* on the up and up when it comes to stories about leftist countries.
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks for sharing!
:kick: ed & Recommended
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RadiDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thanks - K&R - I'd love to move there
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. There is noting better than a first hand report Thanks n/t
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. I hope other Chavez supporters follow your example and move over there.
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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. america: love it or leave it
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Not at all. This is all about Chavez.
Edited on Wed Aug-15-07 10:06 PM by Katzenkavalier
justinaforjustice is a person that has talked the talk and walked the walk. She supports the guy and is there enjoying the system.
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12string Donating Member (443 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. America
Change it or Lose it.
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
22. Umm, no
I am an AMERICAN. If you have some kind of problem with that, well keep it to yourself. Gawd knows I don't care.

No, I say we reform OUR country to reflect some of the ideals Mr. Chavez has been a champion of in HIS. That would be an improvement, wouldn't you agree?
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BornagainDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
32. You mean "cut and run"? That's what Rove and other fascisti do
when the going get's rough, as in Iraq. We need to stay and change America.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #6
60. Nice!
:eyes:
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
76. So USAmericans don't deserve Universal Health Care, eh?
Gee, it only took 6 posts to hear from the lunatic right-wing of the (alleged) "Democrat Party"...

Thanks for your account.

There's a lot of unsubstantiated anti-Chavez bullshit been posted lately, it's nice to hear from someone who knows what's ACTUALLY going on there.
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Muddy Waters Guitar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
8. Thanks for this account, Justin
I'm almost amused at the wingnuts who get such a kick out of trashing Chavez and Venezuela as though it were a despotic Socialistic mess, when in fact by many accounts, this relatively poor South American country has its act together much better than we do here!
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. you don't even have to leave DU to find these wingnuts of
which you speak.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
61. Nope, you sure don't. n/t
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ptolle Donating Member (423 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-18-07 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
98. old story
Have you ever gotten to tracking the sources of much of the Anti-Chavez BS that shows up here and elsewhere. I've done some and you'd probably not be surprised to know that considerable numbers of the old Iran-contra pro-death squads gang are still involved.Otherwise, as usual, you get a lot of the wingnut knee jerk squawking, the unthinking bleating out what their masters have told them to think and say.
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
12. Somebody had to pay for your medical expenses which cost you "nada"
Who was it? Must have been the rich corporations?
Or the rich individuals who were taxed? Or was it
Chavez himself? But then Chavez does not have a money
tree in his backyard from what I have heard, so where
did he get the money?

And this money spent on "you", could it have been spent
on something else to benefit some other person?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Actually, Chavez does have a money tree in his back yard
Other folks call it "oil".
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Some nerve getting sick. n/t
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. You're funny.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Funny peculiar or funny ha ha?
Is it 7th grade in here tonight or what?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Ha Ha funny.
duggy makes me laugh,and that's who I was responding to. :shrug:

And the 7th grade? Flatterer! :P
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. It was taxes and the selling of that nation's natural resources
And Chavez is using the income from those things to benefit the people in that country. All of them. You sound as if you think that's a peculiar idea. Would you care to explain why?
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Isn't it just awful...
a country's natural resources being used to the benefit of the citizens rather than just allowing a few privileged individuals and foreign corporations to reap all of the profits? I mean, the nerve!

:sarcasm:
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Seriously GGM
Who would have thought we'd have to explain this to someone on the the Democratic Freakin Underground?

The world is mad. I can no longer abide........
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
38. What Chavez is attemting has already been tried in other countries
For example in Cuba, health services have been subsidized by the
government for a very long time. In China & USSR everyone was
guaranteed a job and income and it was illegal to become rich
by any means. In India the government owned Steel, Railroad, Banks,
Insurance, Telephone, Cement, Airlines, and power generation lock
stock and barrel. No private ownership was allowed in those industries.

Let us honestly examine the results.

Cuba is one of the poorest countries in the America's.
China and USSR had one of the worst economies anywhere except
very poor 3rd world countries.
India needed foreign aid year after year simply to feed the starving.

Look at what is happening today.
Cuba is still one of the poorest in America's.
Russia now allows private capitalists and Russian economy & the Ruble
are doing just great.
China now allows private industrialists & wealth accumulation and
China has a booming economy, on track to become the world's largest
overtaking US in 15 short years.
India privatized or allowed private competing industries in many of
those previously owned and run by the government. Result? Indian
economy is now growing by double digits for the last 5 years and
continuing to expand and now has the largest middle class of any
country except perhaps China.

In my honest opnion, Venezuela under Chavez is on track to become
Cuba II.

Amongst the candidates ruunning for president, only Hillary Clinton
has the best policy towards corporations, taxes & healthcare.

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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Your argument is ridiculous.
Every modernized nation has some form of government subsidized health care system, and universal coverage. Except the US of course. Why don't you mention Canada, or France, or Sweden, or whoever? Nope, you throw in Cuba as your shining example of why it doesn't work, all the while ignoring the fact that Cuba's health care system has nothing whatever to do with it's financial woes.

I won't bother with the rest of your "argument", it's equally inane. You do know how much oil and other natural resources Venezuela has right?
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. I do know one thing for sure
That the oil in Venezuela (Vz) won't last more than 20 to 40 years.
In that time what Vz needs to do is develop its industrial and service
business base so that there will be wealth after the oil is gone to
afford health services. And you can't develop a production base if
the resources are used to subsidize the needy with no investment
for future sustainability.

The middle-east is in the same boat. You do not hear much about
goods & services being exported from Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran,
Libya etc. A few others in the M-E however are doing a better job of
developing an industrial base.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #42
64. Other ways of not developing a production base...

... is 10% of the population owning 90% of the land and letting it lie fallow.

Starvation? Definitely not good for your production base.

Sickness? Again, not good for your production base.

You know what all that gets you instead of a production base? A communist revolution that conquers most of the nation while the leaders hunker down in the their cities. Fortunately for Venezuela they also had a US trained general who deposed the leadership, took the Venezuelan armed forces out into the countryside, routed the communist forces, found mass starvation everywhere he looked, confiscated warehouses of food waiting to be exported (because that 10% could make more money selling the food grown in Venezuela outside the country than to the starving masses inside the country) and fed the people.

Now which do you suppose put a complete end to the communist revolt? Dispersing their guerrila forces in a single battle, or feeding the people so they would have no more need for the communists?

You accuse Chavez of short term thinking? Rightwing every-man-for-himself thinking is a heck of a lot shorter.


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irislake Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #41
68. Yes what about Canada?
Edited on Fri Aug-17-07 12:53 PM by irislake
We wouldn't trade places with Americans for anything. Especially now when your economy is going belly-up!

And as for Cuba, Cuba might be doing better if you didn't forbid trade --- impose sanctions. I question whether the poor in Cuba are as badly off as the poor in the U.S. Not as many babies die for starters.

Canadians love to go to Cuba on vacation. I have never been but the picture I get from friends who have gone, and "would go back any day", is that Cuba isn't the horror that Americans believe it is.

As for Chavez I would prefer him to Stephen Harper and I agree with him 100% about Bush. Bush IS the devil incarnate with the odour of sulpher all around him.

Love how Bushie is putting death row prisoners on a "fast track". Amazing the little things that get his attention. To hell with bridges and miners but let's fast track the prisoners on death row! Does he have his priorities right? You betcha.

For a devil incarnate that is!
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
77. Nor do you mention that Cuba's Health Care system
Edited on Fri Aug-17-07 02:48 PM by ProudDad
is substantially better than that in the U.S.A.

Nasty old Commies...

--------------------

http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/checkup/

SiCKO: Cuba is one of the most generous countries in providing doctors to the third world.

* "WHO statistics show that the incidence of AIDS in Cuba is the lowest in this hemisphere, and there are now more than 800 Cuban doctors in Haiti alone working to control the AIDS epidemic. President Castro has offered an almost unlimited number to be sent to Africa, to be paid by the Cuban government with only a small stipend from the host countries." "President Carter's Cuba Trip Report By Jimmy Carter," May 21, 2002.
http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc528.html

* "The close friendship between Cuban leader Fidel Castro and Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has netted Venezuela a loan of 20,000 Cuban health workers -- including 14,000 doctors, according to the Venezuelan government -- who work in poor barrios and rural outposts for stipends seven times higher on average than their salaries at home. Castro has vowed to send Chavez as many as 10,000 additional medical workers by year's end." "As Cuba Loans Doctors Abroad, Some Patients Object at Home," Boston Globe, August 25, 2005.

* "President Evo Morales on Friday heeded the wishes of six visiting U.S. senators by acknowledging the positive effects of American aid in his country - but added that Cuban doctors had had a greater impact on Bolivia than their U.S. counterparts… n a Friday interview with Bolivian radio network Fides, Morales said the assistance of Cuban leader Fidel Castro - who has sent Bolivia some 1,700 doctors and paramedics this year alone, setting up free hospitals and eye clinics throughout Bolivia -- outshines the United States' own medical aid." "Morales Says Cuban Doctors top U.S. Medical Aid," Boston Globe, December 29, 2006.

SiCKO: In the U.S., health care costs run nearly $7,000 per person. But in Cuba, they spend around $251 per person.

* United States health spending per capita is $6,697 per person according to Catlin, A, C. Cowan, S. Heffler, et al, "National Health Spending in 2005." Health Affairs 26:1 (2006). As with the number of uninsured, the number continues to increase and is projected to be $7,092 per capita in 2006, $7,498 per capita in 2007 and reaching $12,782 by 2016, according the Department of Health and Human Services Center for Medicare and Medicaid Expenditures, National Health Expenditures Projections 2006-2016,
http://www.cms.hhs.gov/NationalHealthExpendData/downloads/proj2006.pdf

* The 2006 United Nations Human Development Report says Cuba spends $251 per capita on health care. (Human Development Report 2006, United Nations Development Programme, 2006. http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/indicators/52.html)

SiCKO: In Cuba, access to health care is universal.

* "Cuban dissatisfaction with their personal lives does not mean they are negative about the revolutionary government's achievements in health care and education. A near unanimous 96 percent of respondents say that health care in Cuba is accessible to everyone. Gallup polls in other Latin American cities have found that on average only 42 percent believe health care is accessible." Gallup/ Consultoría Interdisciplinaria en Desarrollo, "Cubans Show Little Satisfaction with Opportunities and Individual Freedom Rare Independent Survey Finds Large Majorities Are Still Proud of Island's Health Care and Education," January 10, 2007.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brlatinamericara/
300.php?nid=&id=&pnt=300&lb=brla

SiCKO: Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate and a longer average lifespan than the United States.

* The 2006 United Nations Human Development Report's human development index states the life expectancy in the United States is 77.5, and is 77.6 in Cuba. Human Development Report 2006, United Nations Development Programme, 2006 at 283. http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/pdfs/report/HDR06-complete.pdf.

* According to the United Nations Statistics Division, Population and Vital Statistics Report, the rate of infant deaths per thousand in Cuba is 6.2 per thousand, and in the United States is 6.8. "Table 3, Live births, deaths, and infant deaths, latest available year, June 15, 2007."
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/products/vitstats/serATab3.pdf
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Aussie leftie Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #38
91. Australia also has a Federal Healthcare system
Economically we are doing very well thankyou. Our current right wing government would scrap the system tomorrow if they thought they could get away with it. "User Pays" is their philosophy. I have had a few unexpected medical problems lately, and the treatment I have received (including surgery) has not cost a cent. Everybody is entitled to reasonable health, rich or poor.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-18-07 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #38
95. Coorelation does not imply causality. n/t
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KaptBunnyPants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #12
26. Well, my hard right friend, that was paid for by taxes.
You see, people band together to form these things called societies. To keep things running orderly, we create governments, which need to collect taxes in order to provide services. In a representative democracy like Venezuela, people choose representatives who decide how much should be taxed and what services should be provided. Like all sane countries, Venezuela has nationalized their health care system, so that all people get access to health care. One day, we will join Venezuela in doing this, as it is far cheaper and more effective to deal with health issues at a group level rather than as individuals. We would be already, except a whole bunch of dumbasses out there keep wanting to fight for the broken system we have, in spite of the fact that it is unnecessarily killing tens of thousands of Americans each year in missed preventative care. Do you understand now - did that help?
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. Do you always brand any one who has a different viewpoint as "hard right"?
Why is it always right Vs left? Is there not a place for
discussion of issues from all viewpoints?
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KaptBunnyPants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Only when they talk as if all taxes are theft.
That was your point, right? That Chavez was taking money from hard working people to spend on something frivolous like health care for all. Nearly every country does it, and it works extremely well, much better than the truly awful system we've developed here. And there may be a place for discussion of issues from all viewpoints, but it's not DU. This is a Democratic/Left website, meant to help like minded people organize for progressive change, not an open forum for people from all political persuasions to argue issues. You certainly don't have to be a Party-line Democrat to post here, but you at least have to possess a world view which is on the whole progressive. Meaning that you must believe that economic inequality is an issue the government can and should address, as opposed to conservatives, who hold that economic inequality is a natural and good phenomenon which the government should not, and indeed cannot, address. Progressives hold a breathtakingly wide range of opinions in how the government should address economic inequality, but no progressive would ever argue that it is wrong to tax in order to provide a necessary service to the poor.
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Exactly, DU is a progressive club, but the flaw in your viewpoint
Edited on Thu Aug-16-07 06:02 PM by dugggy
is your assumption that the best way to achieve "progressive"
benefit to all and especially the poor is to have the government
run the system. You seem to be fully convinced that only a fully
government run bureaucratic healthcare system is the best. That
is where we part ways. I consider myself very progressive/liberal
in that I want the most individuals to derive maximum benefits.

I think a better system would be to foster competition amongst
healthcare providers by empowering the individual to shop for them.
Those who can not afford healthcare should be paid tax credits or
outright cash awards.

I spent half my life in government and other half in industry, and
I am not at all convinced the government is the best for running
any system except for areas involving national security, defense,
and law enforcement.
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KaptBunnyPants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. So then you are a libertarian.
That's fine, but it's not a progressive* political philosophy because libertarians don't believe that the government can effectively address issues of economic inequality. No matter how superficially a libertarian may match up with a progressive on some issues, ultimately, you're still on the other team as economics trumps everything. A progressive hates bad government but still believes in good government, so while we can team up with libertarians to attack poorly run programs of dubious value, our ideologies are simply incompatible when it comes to issues of general governance. Libertarians are considered by most to be to the right of the Republican Party, and since Republicans can't post here, I'm not sure that libertarians can either. Not that I'm going to alert on you or anything, just fair warning that this website was really made for people who believe that it's possible for the government to do good and that some problems are so large that only the government can effectively address them. There are a group of people who identify as left-libertarians, (I believe Marcos of DailyKos, for example), and these people are progressives, but they differ dramatically from standard libertarians in their willingness to use the government as a tool to solve social problems.

*I use the term progressive here as a general term for all political viewpoints which fall to the left of the political spectrum, as I believe that is how the term is meant to be applied in the DU rules.
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-18-07 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #48
93. If I was a libertarian, I would not want the gov't to pay a single penny to
any one. If you read my post again, you may learn that
I want every penny of health expense paid by the gov't
(which means taxpayers) for those who can't afford it.
What I am against is that the decision making power of
who gets what treatment when can not be entrusted to
bureaucrats.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
78. Then why don't you
Edited on Fri Aug-17-07 03:01 PM by ProudDad
join the Libertarian Underground?

"I am not at all convinced the government is the best for running
any system except for areas involving national security, defense,
and law enforcement."

That's the classic Libertarian position...

"You're on your own, bunky, don't ask for any help from me!"

That's NOT the Left-Progressive position...


I will defend you on one level, DU was a strongly left-leaning board when I originally joined in '02 but it appears to have moved way to the right now that the corporatist Dems smell republican blood in the water...

So, welcome to the new "devolved" DU :hi:


On Edit: I remember you now. I just re-read your post and this jumped out:

"I think a better system would be to foster competition amongst healthcare providers by empowering the individual to shop for them. Those who can not afford healthcare should be paid tax credits or outright cash awards."

WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN for the last 35+ years. That's exactly the BULLSHIT that has been tried in this selfish excuse for a country and things are worse for more people every year!!!!

I say again, take that Randian crap to Libertarian Underground!!!!
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-18-07 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #78
94. Obviously you don't understand libertarian philosophy.
In simplest of terms, libertarians are against ANY
payment by the gov't to ANYONE. I am just the opposite.
I want the gov't to pick up every penny of healthcare
expenses for the indigent. But I am totally against the
rationing of healthcare entrusted to gov't bureaucrats.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-18-07 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #78
96. I must say,ProudDad...
that I have noticed that also.

"DU was a strongly left-leaning board when I originally joined in '02 but it appears to have moved way to the right now that the corporatist Dems smell republican blood in the water..."

Just had to concur with your assessment. Not wanting to start a subthread or anything. :)

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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-18-07 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #96
100. Yep, it's gettin' a little deep
my waders aren't enough on some days... :)

:hi:
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irislake Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #43
69. I can never understand why
Edited on Fri Aug-17-07 01:02 PM by irislake
"taxes" make Americans run for the hills -- from the Boston tea party on you have over-reacted. You should have negotiated with the British instead of having a danged Revolution! Taxes PAY for stuff, yu know!

I would object to paying for wars --but that's just me.

If you hadn't had your cotton picken Revolution you'd have health care now and lots of other goodies!
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #69
79. Unfortunately
over 1/2 of our income taxes go to pay for the Empire's war machine - past and present...

We're fucked...
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. Must be nice not to need healthcare that you can't afford, duggy.
Knock on wood lest you find yourself lost in the land of the uninsured and uninsurable.

Myself? Medical collections hang off of me like big old ticks on a stray dog.

Ah, well, better knuckle down and get back to work, head towards the carrot and away from the stick, I'm feeling a bit anemic.
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. "justinforjustice" has a good job In Venezuela...hardly one of those
Edited on Thu Aug-16-07 05:10 PM by dugggy
who could not be responsible for paying his own health bills.

Let us get one thing straight. I am all for taking care of those
who are truly indignent. Their bills must be subsidized by the tax
payers. I am also for the tax payers picking up the tab when you
are faced with catastrophic medical bills and in danger of going
bankrupt due to medical bills.

I am just against a government bureaucracy running the entire
healthcare system and dictating who gets what treatment at what time.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #39
50. I'm not "indigent." That's the damn problem.
A bit of bad luck, a roll of the dice, the kind of thing that can't be prevented, and my wife and I are tossed into a financial world where we can't get adequate medical insurance and chronically can't pay our medical bills. I go through periods where I pay over $500 a month for meds -- just meds -- not doctors, not hospitals, not therapists, or anything else. Our medical costs regularly exceed our mortgage. We've been in this situation for so many years now I no longer see any end to it until California or the United States establishes some sort of universal health care system.

It would be a hell of a lot easier to give up and get ourselves declared disabled than what we put up with now, especially for my wife.

Nobody wants to be "taken care of." I believe that ordinary and reasonable medical care is a basic human right, a right that allows everyone to contribute and participate in this society to the limits of their own abilities.

Your claims of "responsibility" are simply part of the toolkit ruthless and politically powerful people use to stomp down the human rights of others. Don't buy into it, because you might find yourself crushed beneath that same boot someday, and it really doesn't matter to to the health care industry if you have been "responsible" or not -- you could find yourself sharing a place of humiliation, worthlessness and utter despair with someone you once believed "deserved it." To the health care industry you become yet another sick loser with no money. It doesn't matter to the big health insurance companies how you got that way.

Basically what you claim with your calls of responsibility is the authority for someone else to judge who is worthy in your society, and who isn't.

Right now we ration medical care in the United States every damned day, and people die and are crippled by that, especially the people we silently judge unworthy of medical attention such as "illegal" immigrants (who may have worked all their adult lives in the United States), mentally ill homeless people, the working poor, people who simply can't afford appropriate medications... the list goes on. The safety net is full of holes.

The United States has the most expensive, and the poorest quality medical system in the so-called first world.

Why is it our medical system is so dysfunctional, killing poor people and wealthy people alike, and throwing so many ordinary middle class people into bankruptcy? It's not because it's controlled by a government bureaucracy, it's because it's controlled by greedy amoral corporations who really don't give a damn about anything but profits, who do everything they can to throw unprofitable people with chronic medical problems off of their gravy train.
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. I absolutely agree with all your points except one....
and I just don't want a bureaucrat in DC rationing out my
healthcare needs, and you bet it will be rationing since even
the almight government does not have unlimited funds.

What I think will be a better system is for the government via
either IRS or SSA to pay for your bills when your expenses exceed
a certain percent of your income or if your income is already at
the poverty level. And the government pays the bill for your health
insurance when you can't afford it. But you still have the power to
choose your insurance company and your healthcare providers.
That way only the best providers stay in business, the best insurance
outfits stay in business and the bad go by the wayside.

The funds for this coverage will come from medical tax paid by all
based on their earnings. This tax will take place of medical insurance
costs paid by tax payers who can afford it now.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. The most profitable insurance companies will be those that avoid unprofitable clients
Profit defines the "best insurance outfit" in a market economy.

People who have chronic medical conditions will be bounced around like ping pong balls in a lottery machine, and the people who are rarely ill will be treated to lobster dinners and champagne and give testimonials on TV.

And the worst part will be the private enterprise scammers who grab up all the people without the means to chose which "insurance outfit" is "best" to collect their "benefits."

Stuff some pills in a crazy homeless guy, or the rude demented old lady nobody cares for, put 'em in a group with some incompetent drunken Bible-thumping therapist, and collect your government check.

Profit!!! Free Markets!!! :woohoo:

Nope. I'm holding out for a government run universal health care system. I have no faith at all that private enterprise can run a national health care system. We've already let those drunken free market clowns drive the bus, and they crashed it.


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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Have you ever had to deal with the IRS? Or the INS? or the DOE?
I had to with all three. All of these involve complex
situations, unlike say SSA which basically just cuts checks
for beneficiary's. And my experiences with above three
gov't agencies borders on a nightmare.

I never really cared for the HMO insurances. We dropped
out of it as soon as we could. I have had very good experience
with PPO type insurance. They pay anything and evrything
the doctor orders.

The main reason people are not happy with insurers is
because your employer chooses the insurer. Most likely it
is simply the low cost provider, without any regard to
quality of service. If you could shop for the insurer of
your choice, it would be different. The most profitable
initially won't remain profitable for long if people start
dropping them. When I had my HMO thru the employer, I had
few choices and could change only once a year.

Currently you are correct in that many poor quality
insurers are the most profitable since people can't always
choose whom they want.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #54
85. Take it over here
Edited on Fri Aug-17-07 03:15 PM by ProudDad
www.freerepublic.com

Geez, libertarians... :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:


I just had occasion to deal with Arizona's Motor Vehicle Department for re-registering my vehicles and getting a new Driver's license.

It was all quickly, efficiently, courteously and cheaply done...

I wish my interactions at Home Depot or the local for-profit hospital could be nearly as positive as that was.
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-18-07 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #85
92. Drivers License or registration issuance is a million times less complex
Edited on Sat Aug-18-07 01:17 AM by dugggy
than a bureaucrat deciding upon your medical needs and
solutions and options. The former is straight forward,
simple process of printing out a certificate of registration.
If you can't see the difference in complexities between the
two, I am afraid you will never grasp the issue.

And there are more errors in your presumption.If I was a
true libertarian, I would want the gov't to be totally
out of the health services business. If you bother to read
my posts, you may learn that I want the government to pay
for indigent people's health insurance AND their medical
bills. What I do not want is the gov't deciding who gets
what treatment at what time.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-18-07 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #92
101. GOD DAMN IT
Edited on Sat Aug-18-07 09:02 PM by ProudDad
READ THE FUCKING THING OR SHUT THE F*CK UP!!!!!

Medicare works beautifully with about 2-3 percent overhead, "privatized insurance" -- less coverage for 20-30 percent overhead.

That's all Single-Payer is, Medicare for ALL...a FUNDING Mechanism...

"What I do not want is the gov't deciding who gets what treatment at what time."

"a bureaucrat deciding upon your medical needs and solutions and options."

WHAT PART OF THE HEALTH CARE DELIVERY SYSTEM WILL BE ABLE TO PRACTICE MEDICINE INSTEAD OF BLOCK CARE AND FILL OUT TONS OF PAPERWORK DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND????

READ THE FUCKING BILL, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!

----------------

http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_hr676_2.htm

Brief Summary of HR 676

· The United States National Health Insurance Act establishes an American national health insurance program. The bill would create a publicly financed, privately delivered health care system that uses the already existing Medicare program by expanding and improving it to all U.S. residents, and all residents living in U.S. territories. The goal of the legislation is to ensure that all Americans will have access, guaranteed by law, to the highest quality and most cost effective health care services regardless of their employment, income, or health status.
· With over 45-75 million uninsured Americans, and another 50 million who are under- insured, the time has come to change our inefficient and costly fragmented non health care system.

Who is Eligible

· Every person living in or visiting the United States and the U.S. Territories would receive a United States National Health Insurance Card and ID number once they enroll at the appropriate location. Social Security numbers may not be used when assigning ID cards.

Health Care Services Covered

· This program will cover all medically necessary services, including primary care, in patient care, outpatient care, emergency care, prescription drugs, durable medical equipment, long term care, mental health services, dentistry, eye care, chiropractic, and substance abuse treatment. Patients have their choice of physicians, providers, hospitals, clinics and practices. No co-pays or deductibles are permitted under this act.

Conversion To A Non-Profit Health Care System

· Private health insurers shall be prohibited under this act from selling coverage that duplicates the benefits of the USNHI program. Exceptions to this rule include coverage for cosmetic surgery, and other medically unnecessary treatments. Those who are displaced as the result of the transition to a non- profit health care system are the first to be hired and retrained under this act.

Cost Containment Provisions/ Reimbursement

· The National USNHI program will set reimbursement rates annually for physicians, allow for "global budgets" (annual lump sums for operating expenses) for health care providers; and negotiate prescription drug prices. The national office will provide an annual lump sum allotment to each existing Medicare region; each region will administer the program.

· The conversion to a not-for-profit health care system will take place over a 15 year period. U.S. treasury bonds will be sold to compensate investor-owned providers for the actual appraised value of converted facilities used in the delivery of care; payment will not be made for loss of business profits. Health insurance companies could be sub-contracted out to handle reimbursements.

Proposed Funding For USNHI Program:

· Maintaining current federal and state funding of existing health care programs. A modest payroll tax on all employers of 3.3%. A 5% health tax on the top 5% of income earners. A small tax on stock and bond transfers. Closing corporate tax loop-holes, repealing the Bush tax cut.
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irislake Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #52
70. Insurance companies want to make a
PROFIT! The more profits the better.

Government waste? You exaggerate. Waste on the scale of Halliburton and those private companies in Iraq -- now that's waste!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #39
62. Does Venezuela's system have gov't bureaucrats dictating treatment?
That's kind of a right-wing lie, there, you know.

Every single-payer system around the world that I've read about has medical people calling the shots... the gov't just takes the place of the insurance parasites... sorry, industry.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #39
84. Your libertarian position
is the same old, same old tired Randian bullshit...

Everyone is responsible for themselves alone. No one should be FORCED to help another human person. The ONLY function of government is war, police and prisons.

Bullshit!!!


What a bleak sort of world you libertarians inhabit.


What part of Community do you not understand? Do you think you built the physical and spiritual infrastructure ALL ON YOUR OWN!!! You don't owe anyone in the community anything?

Damn, I think I hate libertarians more than I hate republicans...

------------------------

Health Care is a NATURAL are for EVERYONE to contribute according to their means so that EVERYONE can benefit according to their needs.

Do you REALLY want to say that some people who are saddled with bad luck in the gene pool lottery should be penalized for that? That's what your policy says.

=============

"I am just against a government bureaucracy running the entire
healthcare system and dictating who gets what treatment at what time."

WHO THE FUCK IS ADVOCATING THIS????

HR 676 DOESN'T ADVOCATE the government takeover of Health Care Delivery!!!! Single-Payer is a FUNDING mechanism that cuts out the for-profit leeches -- NOT the government takeover of Health Care.

Got that!!!!

Good!!!!

It's about fucking time!!!!
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
46. You may have misunderstood my viewpoint...
In MHO EVERYONE must have access to healthcare. It is the most
basic and humane thing. But I do not think the best way to achieve
that is to setup a huge bureaucracy run by the government. Please
read my nearby post for details.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #46
65. I agree 100%.

Everyone should get medical service no questions asked. Unfortunately, you will never convince the Conservatives of that. They will insist that gov't provided healthcare include a huge bureaucracy so we don't have "appendicitis queens" having an appendix removed two or three times a month.

But I am with you. We don't need no stinkin' bureaucracy, public or private.

However, this does bring us full circle. The OPs description appears to fit exactly what you asking for. S/he went to the doctor and received immediate treatment. There was certainly no rationing of medicine in this example.


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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #46
86. I'VE READ ALL YOUR POSTS
AND YES, I'M SHOUTING BECAUSE YOU DON'T HEAR US!!!!!!!

One Last Time!!!

HR 676 and SB 840 (in California) and the Single-Payer systems in the entire CIVILIZED INDUSTRIALIZED world (except Great Britain) DO NOT "setup a huge bureaucracy run by the government"!!!!

They set up the same efficient payment system that we have in Medicare (for which I'm sweating out 1 1/2 more years until I can join) and cut out the for profit leeches in the health INSURANCE industry while allowing the decisions about health care to be made by the HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS!!!!

WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO READ HR 676???

WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO READ OUR POSTS?????

I know the answer - You've made up your libertarian "mind" and refuse other input.

Bye for good!!! :hi:
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BornagainDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
31. Congratulations! Another winner of the Origin of the Specious award!
The author of the OP IS contributing to Venezuela. He is a teacher. But I guess you'd rather not remember that. :eyes:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Origin of the Specious
LOL...that's a keeper. :rofl:
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
17. Great story! Welcome to DU and thanks for sharing it.
We need to keep at it with these first-hand stories that knock down all the baloney about how universal health care here just wouldn't work. It will work. It can work. It should be classified as a public utility and publicly funded. And we'd have all the money in the world to do so if we could only stop the damned war.
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KillCapitalism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
18. Viva Chavez!
Great story, K&R!

I don't know if any of you here listen to Radio Nacional de Venezuela online or not, if you know Spanish, you should check it out. One day I tuned into a Chavez speech and all I could hear was what sounded like thousands of supporters chanting "Tenemos el socialismo!" Translated that means "We have socialism." I was so moved by this that I was nearly in tears, not because I was sad, it was that I was happy for those people since they have a very bright future ahead of them as a nation.
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BornagainDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. Great name. I wish I had thought of that. Welcome to DU!
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democrat2thecore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
49. Not that I'm not sympathetic, but....
Edited on Thu Aug-16-07 06:43 PM by democrat2thecore
I wonder what John Edwards would think of your using his face as your avatar and your username being, "KillCapitalism"? Capitalism has been pretty good to Senator Edwards.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-18-07 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #18
97. I totally agree with you...Viva Chavez! However..
re: your statement..."I was happy for those people since they have a very bright future ahead of them as a nation."

You can bet your booty that they DO NOT have a bright future. The US of A will insure that that does not happen. Name me one country where their government has tried to provide for the PEOPLE that the US hasn't put a stop to it. Well, I suppose Cuba is an example, but they've had to suffer mightily for it for decades.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
25. So glad to see this first-hand account. I thought you were posting an article
you found somewhere else, and before ending the article, I was looking at the bottom of the comments to see who the source was. Discovering it was a person whose posts I've seen here before was exceptional.

Bookmarking it, for sure! Thank you.
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BornagainDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
29. Man I love this quote from your great post:
...This woman is very much involved in her religious group and is by no means political, but she told me that before Chavez was elected, the medical system in Venezuela was just awful. There were very long waiting lines at the private clinics, the services were poor, the places were dirty and ambulances virtually non-existent. For poor people, there was virtually no access to medical or dental care at all....

Viva Chavez!!

Please watch "Sicko" if you havent' seen it then re-read this post. The Venezuelan system is what we neeeeed in the US!
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
34. We must demand healthcare as a priority or we will never get it! Will we? That's the question.
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BornagainDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
35. Hey Justin, do you know any other ex-pat Americans down there?
Wouldn't it be cool to get some more first hand accounts of what is going on in Venezueal from a US ex-pats perspective.

We should open a forum for it!!
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
36. Great post!
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
45. Well, Chavez has now just gotten rid of term limits for the presidency.
I just don't feel comfortable with your post. It feels too much like Chavez propaganda. As much as I am for universal health care, I wouldn't want it for the price of freedom, which is what has happened in Venezuela. I doubt Chavez would put up with anti-Chavez blogs for long, would he, given the way he has consolidated the media under his control there.

We'll get universal health care in America our own way, and keep the U.S. Constitution intact. I do not see Venezuela as a role model for anything.

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Oh, good grief...
:eyes::crazy::eyes:
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KaptBunnyPants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. Why do you support term limits?
They are anti-Democratic in nature. If people like the current government so much that they would gladly keep voting for it, they should have that right! We only have them because of fears by the business community of FDR, probably the greatest President who ever lived. They wanted to minimize the good that a politician could do by artificially restricting their term in power. Why would you support that?
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #51
81. Okay, let's get rid of them right now. Care for 4 more years of Bush? n/t
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KaptBunnyPants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #81
90. If the American people are dumb enough to allow 4 more years of Bush.
I believe in democracy. If people really wanted this guy in, so be it. But he has never won a presidential election legitimately, so he's not really a good example for a question about democratic institutions. Chavez, by the account of all observers, has legitimate public support and won his elections fairly. As long as that continues to be true, why shouldn't he be allowed to run for President?
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #45
55. You don't even have your facts straight. How much weight should we give your opinions?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #45
56. "...he has consolidated the media under his control there." Priceless!
You've gone to the trouble to inform us all that Venezuelans have lost their freedom in order to obtain desperately needed help in their lives like medical treatment, which many, MANY of them had never received in their lifetimes, and other tokens of affection from Hugo Chavez's administration for which they elected him.

That's probably stupid, isn't it? Can't begain to imagine where you get this drivel, and why you think adult Democrats would believe you.

Here's a good bit of information many of us have seen before:
Poll: Venezuelans Have Highest Regard for Their Democracy

Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 By: Gregory Wilpert - Venezuelanalysis.com

(venezuelanalysis.com)--Venezuelans view their democracy more favorably than the citizens of all other Latin American countries view their own democracies, except Uruguay, according to a new survey released by the Chilean NGO Latinbarometro last Saturday. Also, Venezuela is in first place in several measures of political participation, compared to all other Latin American countries.

According to the Latinobarometro survey, Venezuelans rank their democracy as being more fully realized than the citizens of all other surveyed countries do except Uruguay. On a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 means a country that is not democratic and 10 is a country that is completely democratic, Venezuelans, on average, gave their own democracy a score of 7.0. The Latin American average was 5.8, with Uruguay having the highest score, of 7.2, and Paraguay the lowest, at 3.9.

Similarly, Venezuelans say more often than the citizens all other countries except Uruguayans that they are satisfied with their democracy. 57% of Venezuelans are happy with Venezuelan democracy, which is the second highest percentage, with 66% of Uruguayans expressing satisfaction. The average for all countries surveyed was 38%, with citizens of Peru, Ecuador, and Paraguay, expressing the least satisfaction, of 23%, 22%, and 12% respectively.

For Venezuela, the percentage of citizens surveyed who indicated satisfaction increased more since 1998, the year Chavez was elected, than any other country. The percentage expressing satisfaction increased from 32% to 57% in those eight years.

In terms of political participation, Venezuelans indicate that they are more politically active than the citizens of any other surveyed country. Venezuelans have the highest percentage of citizens that say they discuss politics regularly (47%, average is 26%), who say that they try to convince others on political matters (32%, average is 16%), who participate in demonstrations (26%, average is 12%), and who say they are active in a political party (25%, average is 9%).
(snip/...)
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2179

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The original poster who contributed that excellent opening comment isn't the only DU'er who lives in Venezuela. There are others, and there are other DU'ers who go there on a regular basis other than "business." If you continue here long enough you'll be well advised to hear what they have to say.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #45
63. How does a single-payer system cost us our freedom? Or infringe on the Constitution?
Are you being serious here? Cause that's just... just... ridiculous!

And in case you haven't noticed, we're alraedy paying 'the price of freedom' ... for nothing.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #63
82. It doesn't. But I don't think Venezuela is a good example to emulate. n/t
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #82
88. Venezuela is not the issue... the OP was about healthcare.
We need single payer, that's it.

Only ONE candidate is proposing that.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
66. Would you please respond to someone?

Where in the world did you hear that Chavez consolidated the media under his control? The gov't refused to renew the license for ONE television network because that network violated nudity laws and refused to pay the fine. While I thought the "wardrobe malfunction" fine against CBS was wrong, do you seriously think CBS would still be broadcasting had they not paid that fine?

90% of the media in Venezuela is still owned and operated by people who want Chavez out of office.


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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #66
83. Think again:
Edited on Fri Aug-17-07 03:09 PM by beachmom
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1626151,00.html

In this extremely polarized society, media outlets have been known to behave more as political actors than objective observers. Still, other leading privately owned networks such as Venevision have allayed their criticism of the government. Local journalists say that a media law that increases penalties for slander has encouraged self-censorship. And even media owners soft on Chavez admit that the constant pro-government trailers and late-night slandering of the opposition on the main state-run channel, Venezolana de Television, is little more than propaganda. The international response hasn't been favorable either, as the European Union and the U.S. Senate have expressed concern.

Only hours after RCTV went off the air, the government was already threatening Globovision, the lone opposition TV holdout. Information minister Willian Lara announced Monday that the government would investigate the channel for allegedly inciting an assassination attempt on Chavez. As evidence, he showed footage of a 1981 assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II accompanied by Salsa star Ruben Blades singing "Have faith, this does not stop here." Lara also accused CNN of inciting violence against Chavez and "campaigning against Venezuela" by showing Chavez's image next to a picture of an al-Qaeda leader. On Tuesday, in a speech that all TV stations were obliged to broadcast, Chavez suggested Globovision "take a tranquilizer, that they slow down, because if not, I'm going to slow them down." Globovision president Alberto Federico Ravell denied the accusations, saying they "won't change our editorial line" and calling his channel "the last bastion of independent television."



I have nothing more to say. I am very skeptical of Chavez and this jingoism for him on DU is to me quite remarkable.

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irislake Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #45
71. Your constitution is not "intact".
And Chavez has a long way to go to be as dangerous as Bush!
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #71
80. Oh, so BUSH is now the standard we judge how countries should be run?
Let's be clear: I don't like authoritarian style presidents, even so-called benevelent ones. And I don't understand why a DEMOCRATIC site is spending time worshipping Chavez. I know someone who was in Nicaragua who told me first hand of the shenanigans Chavez has been up to to ASSURE that his friends get elected across Latin America, including Ortega, who was just elected in Nicaragua, including bribing officials with cheap oil. If you people want to worship someone like Chavez, be my guest. But then you've got no right to judge the Bushbots here.

And the way the OP sets things up, somehow VENEZUELA is better than America because he received free health care. Sorry, no dice from me on that score. I am not an economic leftist but a mainstream Democrat and I do not approve what Chavez has done in his country. It's only the oil revenue which has let him avoid economic collapse thus far. Pray the oil barons across the globe keep oil prices high to keep Chavez's country going.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-18-07 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #71
102. He's got a hell of a way to go
to be as dangerous as ObamClintWards...
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irislake Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #45
72. Hmmmm
I wonder what other country has got the media "under control"?

I read that where "free press" is concerned the U.S is rated 51st in the world. Not very impressive.
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BornagainDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #45
89. Freedom to do what?
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Spinzonner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
57. The problem is

That doctors take a Hippocratic Oath - which we hope they honor for the most part

Insurance Companies take a Hypocritical Oath - which they seem to honor quite rigorously

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AnotherGreenWorld Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #57
74. Very few doctors take the actual Hippocratic Oath anymore.
And if they did, most would be in violation of it.

The "profits over people" ethos isn't limited to insurance companies. Doctors care more about making money than helping people, too, and it adversely affects their practice. Most are too incompetent even if they did care. There are far too many unqualified doctors in the US.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
58. Why should we accept less? Cause we're told it's pragmatic.
Thanks for sharing your story. :)
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
67. That is just why the bushitlers are trying so desperately to topple him
If we don't start treating getting Murka back to America as a life and death issue we are doomed to repeat the worst and most despotic dregs of history.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
73. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
75. Kick
Edited on Fri Aug-17-07 02:38 PM by ProudDad
We could have the same or better here in the U.S. of A...

If we had an ELECTED President instead of an appointed pResident...and a Congress that wasn't in the pocket of the insurance companies and big pharma...

---------

http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_hr676_2.htm

Brief Summary of HR 676

· The United States National Health Insurance Act establishes an American national health insurance program. The bill would create a publicly financed, privately delivered health care system that uses the already existing Medicare program by expanding and improving it to all U.S. residents, and all residents living in U.S. territories. The goal of the legislation is to ensure that all Americans will have access, guaranteed by law, to the highest quality and most cost effective health care services regardless of their employment, income, or health status.
· With over 45-75 million uninsured Americans, and another 50 million who are under- insured, the time has come to change our inefficient and costly fragmented non health care system.

Who is Eligible

· Every person living in or visiting the United States and the U.S. Territories would receive a United States National Health Insurance Card and ID number once they enroll at the appropriate location. Social Security numbers may not be used when assigning ID cards.

Health Care Services Covered

· This program will cover all medically necessary services, including primary care, in patient care, outpatient care, emergency care, prescription drugs, durable medical equipment, long term care, mental health services, dentistry, eye care, chiropractic, and substance abuse treatment. Patients have their choice of physicians, providers, hospitals, clinics and practices. No co-pays or deductibles are permitted under this act.

Conversion To A Non-Profit Health Care System

· Private health insurers shall be prohibited under this act from selling coverage that duplicates the benefits of the USNHI program. Exceptions to this rule include coverage for cosmetic surgery, and other medically unnecessary treatments. Those who are displaced as the result of the transition to a non- profit health care system are the first to be hired and retrained under this act.

Cost Containment Provisions/ Reimbursement

· The National USNHI program will set reimbursement rates annually for physicians, allow for "global budgets" (annual lump sums for operating expenses) for health care providers; and negotiate prescription drug prices. The national office will provide an annual lump sum allotment to each existing Medicare region; each region will administer the program.

· The conversion to a not-for-profit health care system will take place over a 15 year period. U.S. treasury bonds will be sold to compensate investor-owned providers for the actual appraised value of converted facilities used in the delivery of care; payment will not be made for loss of business profits. Health insurance companies could be sub-contracted out to handle reimbursements.

Proposed Funding For USNHI Program:

· Maintaining current federal and state funding of existing health care programs. A modest payroll tax on all employers of 3.3%. A 5% health tax on the top 5% of income earners. A small tax on stock and bond transfers. Closing corporate tax loop-holes, repealing the Bush tax cut.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
87. It's already happening in California
"California Speaks": We Want Single Payer

http://www.californiaprogressreport.com/2007/08/california_spea_2.html

It appears that even the groppensteroidenfuhrer is wavering...

"Interestingly, and perhaps tellingly, later that same day, the Governor was quoted on a Fresno news station as saying he would sign SB 840 “as soon as we have the money for it”. Of course, the Lewin Report, studying the factors set out in the bill, has already shown how the plan will be funded. But, whether the Governor’s pronouncement signals a serious shift in his thinking, it certainly acknowledges the political momentum that SB 840 has garnered. I welcome the conversation on funding, because we’ve got the money. SB 840 can easily be achieved with our current health care spending, personal, employer and state and federal. It would use the money wasted by the insurance companies on denying care to provide it, to all Californians, without co-pays or deductibles, for one affordable premium each year. What we need is the political will to catch up with the will of the people of California."
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-18-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #87
99. You are my hero Proud Dad.
:yourock:
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cutlassmama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-19-07 05:57 AM
Response to Original message
103. What a total blessing it would be for America to have health care such as this
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