Scenario: Kucinich wins the nomination and the presidency in 08. By 2016,

[JackRiddler]

his presidency will be described as ___________,

(You fill it in...)

[McCamy Taylor]

1. imaginary?

[JackRiddler]

2. No more so...

than those who are trying to imagine us into predetermined conclusions with respect to Clinton or Obama.

[Kiouni]

3. missing the mark.

While I admire Kucinich for his comprehensive plans I think he goes too big and honestly too big doesn't get passed now a days. If he gets it great but I don't see congress getting on board.

[redqueen]

13. Why would congress not get on board?

:shrug:

[Selatius]

4. His presidency will be described as The Third Deal

In the tradition of the Square Deal and the New Deal.

In all honesty, if he ever got that close to the presidency, I think he will be killed by a gunman.

[JohnnyBoots]

12. Sad to say, but that was my first thought too. n/t

[HughBeaumont]

40. Not just ANY gunman -

A corporation and/or government-funded one.

[Yukari Yakumo]

5. "Bush-like, if he was a Dem"

Kuch's stubbornness and extreme-left stance will make him into a left-wing version of Chimpy. It may sound good to some, but trust me, it isn't.

[JackRiddler]

9. this the new talking point?

You saying Kucinich will be opening new Guantanomos and tapping your phone lines as part of his Crusade for Peace?

Or you just hurling vague defamations for kicks?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

49. I agree.

If Bush is vanilla, Kucinich is just French Vanilla. Essentially the same flavor with a different twist.

[NoPasaran]

6. Orwellian

Although actually speaking the word would result in the unfortunate utteree being seized by the jack-booted thugs from the Ministry of Peace and shipped off for "re-education".

[JackRiddler]

8. A joke, I presume?

Engaging in what you take to be exaggeration (what I view as outrageous misrepresentation) in compensation for all the abuse hurled your way because of your candidate's support for nuclear war with Iran?

[JTFrog]

7. 42

Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

[cobalt1999]

10. paralyzed

Nothing significant ever passed through congress, what was passed was vetoed. Unable to implement any his ideas/plans combined with an administration that was inexperienced and, at best, ineffective.

Luckily, it doesn't have the remotest chance of occurring.

[redqueen]

14. What was passed was vetoed? Pray tell... who vetoes it, in your... scenario?

:wtf:

You already know who'd be in his administration?

[cobalt1999]

15. I just don't see Dennis as willing to sign off on..

what will inevitably be watered down versions of his bills after they come out of congress. So, instead of accepting a partial win, I see him vetoing anything that doesn't get him what he wanted.

What he would propose wouldn't make it through congress, the watered down versions he'd veto...thus my description for his presidency...paralyzed (maybe stalemate would have been better)

[redqueen]

18. So you HONESTLY believe he'd veto everything

that didn't come out EXACTLY as he wanted it?

[cobalt1999]

20. I'm not talking about minor tweaks to his bills.

Many of his ideas have no chance of coming out of congress without MAJOR changes. Yes, I don't think he'd sign those bills.

I haven't seen much in his track record to show lots of compromise in Dennis. He's been dedicated and passionate to his ideals, which is why many here like him. That is also why I don't see him working well with congress.

Honestly.

[redqueen]

21. Which ideas? What kind of major changes do you think

would cause him to veto the bills?

Didn't you say something about his administration? Has he said who'd be on it, or was that point that you made something we should just stop talking about now?

[cobalt1999]

23. Well, his health care plan for example

That isn't going anywhere in congress. He'll get something that looks more like a Clinton or Edwards type package from congress. IMHO, yes, he would veto that.

As for his administration, of course he hasn't said who'd be on it. The whole point was to project into the future. I see Dennis filling his administration with people that have similar ideals and similar passion over people experienced with dealing with the organizations like they'll be managing.

Hey, I like many of his ideas, I just don't believe he is the guy to get them implemented. Just my opinion.

[redqueen]

26. Isn't going anywhere? Why is that, do you think?

He's got at least 80 co-sponsors... and it's what the rest of the world has PROVEN will work... and it's what the American public supports.

I disagree that congress will be allowed to pass for-profit, leave-no-insurance-executive behind legislation. He will have the bully pulpit and will use the American people's needs and desires as a stick to bash those fucking soulless corporate whores with. Let them try to water it down to include profit for fatcat insurance executives... I dare them.

What are you basing your assumption of his choices for cabinet positions on? When the passion and ideals are backed by the opinions of the majority of the American public, the bully pulpit becomes more than just an opportunity to stand in front of a backdrop. It becomes an opportunity for an HONEST, STRAIGHT-TALKING president to connect directly with those people who are sick and tired of seeing corporatist congresswhores sell the public interest out at nearly every opportunity.

Sorry you don't have any confidence in his ability to change the tone significantly once he gets in the WH. I see it entirely differently, obviously.

[Nederland]

33. This is why

If Bill Clinton the most talented politician in the last 50 years couldn't get his health care proposal through Congress, what makes you think a politically inept person like Kucinich could pull it off?

[redqueen]

36. The most talented politician?

How the hell do you figure that?

And what was the makeup in congress when they finally got around to trying to figure out some way to 'fix' healthcare while still keeping some profit for their insurance industry benefators in the picture? Was it during the first two years, while we had congress?

[Nederland]

45. Exactly my point

If Bill Clinton couldn't get it through a Democratic Congress, what makes you think DK could? After all, let's face it, DK has a lousy record of getting legislation passed.

[redqueen]

46. Bill didn't TRY while there was a democratic congress...

that didn't happen till later in his presidency.

[Nederland]

47. Not sure what you are talking about

Clinton's health care initiative was presented to Congress on November 20, 1993--well before the Republicans took control of Congress. It was an issue he campigned extensively on, and was his major focus for the first two years of his first term.

[redqueen]

48. Oops oops oops yes sorry, you're right...

It didn't get defeated until the next year... but that was still with a Dem congress.

So okay, yes... point taken.

[cobalt1999]

38. We obviously see reality differently.

No matter the president, they WILL have to work with congress, Congress WILL water down proposals, and the "bully pulpit" is NOT that powerful.

However, this is all just huge "what if" scenario anyway...fun to speculate that's all.

[redqueen]

42. Exactly... all speculation...

Thanks for the chat. :hi:

[cobalt1999]

44. Back at you!

:hi:

[Yukari Yakumo]

57. See: SCHIP {nt}

uguu

[MH1]

16. Like he vetoed SCHIP. n/t

[redqueen]

17. Do you know what "veto" means?

[MH1]

30. Yep. The turn of phrase is used on purpose.

How is Kucinich voting against SCHIP morally different than Bush vetoing SCHIP?

Particularly if he doesn't change his vote for the override vote. But if he does change his vote, than he won't be standing firm on principle, will he?

Edit to add: the context of this thread is if Kucinich BECOMES PRESIDENT. Based on his NO vote on SCHIP, of course he would VETO the same bill as President.

[redqueen]

31. Because Kucinich knew it was going to pass anyway.

His vote was symbolic... much like Snowe's on Habeas. She wouldn't have voted that way if there were any chance it would actually pass... and it's possible (likely, even) that Kucinich wouldn't have voted against it if there were any chance it wouldn't. And besides, Bush vetoed it anyway... so it might even be just posturing for many of the more conservative members who voted for it.

[MH1]

32. Has he issued a statement that he will vote "yes" on override?

Unless he has, or until he actually votes that way, I won't believe it.

I think his "symbolism" in this case (if that's what it is) is a pile o' crap and undermines his credibility. JMHO though.

[redqueen]

35. Yeah, well I'm no psychic, so I'm just guessing...

A statement would be great...

Thanks for the chat. :hi:

[bluedog]

37. so..........is he happy bush vetoed it?

did he issue a statement,.....that he agreed with bush?.....Dennis said it didn't go far enough.Bush says it went too far...so both should be well satisfied......it didn't go NoWhere!!

[redqueen]

11. Charting a new course for America and the World.

A course not based on how much profit can be wrung out of those at the bottom to enrich those at the top.

[Colobo]

19. I'm glad my idea is so popular!

Let's do it for all candidates.

[JackRiddler]

24. Only fair, no?

[bluedog]

22. a doing nothing administration

he will not be willing to compromise with congress....it'll have to be his way or no way.....of his 7 years in the house he has gotten 1 bill out and passed out of 100,,,,,,,,,he does not work well with others.......

[JackRiddler]

25. Good for him...

I believe the world would have been far better off had Congress passed no new laws whatsoever in the last 7 years, and just maintained the budget and fiscal side as it was in 2000. Do you disagree?

[LoZoccolo]

27. That comparison is meaningless.

You're talking about a period of time where there was a Republican President and for much of the time, a Republican Congress.

[JackRiddler]

29. The post to which I replied, at least as I understood it,

was criticizing K. for having had almost no bills pass in the last 7 years.

[redqueen]

28. I sure as hell agree!

And the 'doesn't play well with others' thing reminds me of the quote in my sig.

Dennis's inability to 'fit in' in a congress that is so polluted that it positively REEKS of corporate cash is a GOOD THING and why anyone who really wants that shit to change needs to support him NOW.

[cali]

43. I like a lot of Dennis' ideas but he's shown no

ability in his years in Congress to go beyond big ideas and delve into the nitty gritty of getting legislation passed. In fact, his record in Congress isn't particularly illustrious. And before you say that he wasn't able to implement any legislation because most of the time he was in a repuke controlled house, consider Bernie Sanders, who during that same period, got more amendments passed than any other legislator, repuke or dem.

More and more, I see Dennis as someone who's more talk than action. He's cancelled his 9/11 hearings, and has yet to introduce a privileged resolution for impeachment. Regarding the latte, if he knew he wasn't going to be allowed to make the resolution, he shouldn't have said that he will.

[Nederland]

34. You'd make a good libertarian (nt)

[JackRiddler]

39. Labels are irrelevant...

Name three major laws that passed in the last 7 years that you support.

(For the purposes of this scenario, assume that the 2000 budget and fiscal just gets repeated every year.)

[rucky]

41. ahead of its time.

apparently, people are perfectly okay with replacing Democracy for Mediocracy.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

50. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Just like his tenure in Congress.

[MonkeyFunk]

51. It would be a period of great national mourning

because it would mean that every other natural-born citizen over the age of 35 had died.

[Ninja Jordan]

52. childish

[Joe the Revelator]

53. If his record is any indication, the word "failure" comes to mind...

Kucinich is worthless. He has a lot of pretty liberal talking points, but he doesn't know how to lead or get things done.

[rjones2818]

54. Heaven Sent!

Go Dennis! :woohoo:
http://dennis4president.com
Choose Peace!

[slick8790]

55. A one term disaster

that cost the democratic party countless congressional seats and a large amount of reputation.


Simply put, kucinich cannot and will not compromise. He deals in black and whites, and American politics is all shades of grey. if his SCHIP, and withdrawal timetables votes are any indication of how he would act as president, he would be willing to sacrifice results for principle. and that gets us nowhere, doesn't it? other than 8 years of republicans from 2012-2020.

[JackRiddler]

56. Not so certain...

The idea of a Kucinich victory is so far-fetched it would need to presuppose a transformation of epic proportions prior to the election - a political and economic apocalypse that redefines the political spectrum and the power balances in a way that one could only compare to the Great Depression and the American majority's willing turn to the New Deal of 1933, against the blind will of that era's seemingly omnipotent oligarchs.

Probably not happening - we'll be lucky if such a crash doesn't produce the other kind of 1933 under a President Giulianary.

[riqster]

58. DK is a self-righteous sonafabitch

...but he's OUR sonofabitch. He was my SOB in Cleveburgh, bless him.

We could do a lot worse than a sanctimonious prick in 2008.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

59. "Full of Elfen Goodness" (Not hating... just a joke!)