Obama's embrace of McClurkin is F'ed up, attacking the entire Black faith community is SHAMEFUL

[wndycty]

This type of shit sickens me. While Obama deserves to be criticized for his embrace of McClurkin, this attack on the entire Black faith community is shameful and it quickly shows how what is a serious issue can be quickly trivialized and turned into DISGUSTING AND PATRONIZING attack on the faith community. I'm not at all religious, but I'm Black and I take offense to posts like this:

To black gays and lesbians and those on the down low
You have my undying respect for often having to brave a religious culture that demeans you, dehumanizes you, attacks you, demoralizes you and tells very fundamental lies about who you are.

They try to render you invisible, but it is not working.

You are true, unsung human heroes.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3629834

[Solon]

1. I think you just stretched things to the breaking point here...

Talk about a weak defense of homophobia.

ON EDIT: By the way, What the fuck is "Black Faith" the last woman I went out with was Black, and Buddhist, and a full GBLT supporter.

[wndycty]

3. Who is defending homophobia?

That post was not an attack on Donnie McClurkin, it was an attack on the entire Black faith community.

[Solon]

6. No it wasn't, and stop conflating the two...

Besides that, you pigeonhole the "entire Black faith community" that doesn't exist anyways. The fact of the matter is that Black folks, just like everyone else, is divided on homosexuality, especially among younger generations.

[wndycty]

9. I know that, I'm Black. . .

. . .but the post I was referring was an attack on the entire Black faith community and you know it. I'm disgusted by the level of homophobia in the Black community, especially as it relates to the church, however to attack the entire Black community is shameful.

I aint backing down. . .LOL

[Solon]

13. Sounds like you are putting words in Ruggerson's mouth...

Ruggerson:

There are black churches that don't preach homophobia, but they are drowned out by the overwhelming voices that do.

Your Response:

Homophobia wrong and intolerable, but your implication that all African American churches are homophobic is just as wrong. You don't fight bigotry with bigotry.

Now tell me where ruggerson said ALL and I'll shut up, until then you are wrong.

[wndycty]

17. Unless he edited his original post that is not what he said in the OP

I quoted Ruggerson directly.

[ruggerson]

18. He's quoting exactly from an exchange you and I had below

n/t

[wndycty]

20. Well I'm only talking the OP that I referenced. . .

I can be focused like that, I don't let other stuff distract me.

[ruggerson]

21. Great, focus on the word "often" which you apparently missed

before you wrote your OP

[wndycty]

22. I didn't miss it, I saw it. . .

. . .but the bigotry of your attack is that you are singling out the Black faith community, what about the larger faith community. Why are just attacking the Black faith community? Many in the the entire faith community are homophobic (not just the Black faith community) but there are a ton of people in the faith community who are not homophobic (regardless of race).

I will repeat what I said in the OP for you to attack the Black faith community is shameful.

[ruggerson]

23. Because this discussion re: Obama is ABOUT parts of the black faith community

he isn't going into white churches with this bigot performing for him.

I have spent my entire lifetime fighting a lot of white churches and their bigotry.

This discussion, however, is about some churches in the African American community.

[wndycty]

24. You never said "some" you made a bigoted statement against all Black churches

Whether you are Black or white, straight or gay, using bigotry to fight bigotry is wrong. You my friend used bigotry and I called you on it, live with it.

[ruggerson]

25. Nice try

but if you have no reading comprehension skills, don't blame me, blame whatever school system fucked you up.

[wndycty]

27. I call out your bigotry so you insult my intelligence and reading comprehension. . .

. . .way to attempt to read an argument.

[ruggerson]

28. Because there is no bigotry in calling out black churches that preach homophobia

Sorry. It's reality. Deal with it.

[wndycty]

30. You called out all Black churches. . .

To black gays and lesbians and those on the down low
You have my undying respect for often having to brave a religious culture that demeans you

You didn't say "sometimes demeans you" or even an acceptable "the majority of which demeans you"

[ruggerson]

32. You're again disregarding the word "often"

No where did I call out all black churches. You can keep writing it till the cows come home and it will be as untrue then as the first time you typed it.

Lying about what someone wrote is very, very uncool.

[Solon]

26. The fact of the matter is that...

A majority of churches and denominations in the black community are homophobic in nature, that position is weakening, but on social issues such as gay marriage, they are much more conservative. Do you deny this?

[ruggerson]

2. Get over it

the word "often" in the sentence means just that. Too OFTEN, african american churches preach homophobic crap.

There are black churches that don't preach homophobia, but they are drowned out by the overwhelming voices that do.

Your OP is bullshit.

[wndycty]

5. I'm not getting over shit. . .

Homophobia wrong and intolerable, but your implication that all African American churches are homophobic is just as wrong. You don't fight bigotry with bigotry.

Attack McClurkin, attack Obama for his embrace of McClurkin, attack every homophobe out there but don't attack the entire Black faith community.

[ruggerson]

7. Well you better, cause your premise is totally fucked up

No one attacked the entire black faith community. That is why the word "OFTEN" is in my OP.

Are you trying to tell us that homophobia is not propogated by elements of the black faith community?

Is that the proposition you're actually trying to defend? Good luck with that.

[wndycty]

11. You never made a distinction. . .and I laugh at you telling me what I better to. . .

:kick:

[ruggerson]

12. I'm glad you think this is funny

you're about the fifth person today who has tried to make light of bigotry.

Tells me all I need to know.

[wndycty]

33. I'm not making light of bigotry

:kick:

[ruggerson]

34. Why are you spending time on this idiocy

instead of on the threads where a number of Obama supporters were making overtly homophobic remarks while defending this gospel singing bigot?

If we are to believe your concern for GLBT people, black and white, it would be easier if there were a couple of instances to point to of you taking Obama supporters to task for their blatant homophobia.

But you haven't.

[wndycty]

35. So now you are telling me how I should spend me time?

Are you going around looking to see what I have said? I have actually reached out directly to some friends in the Obama campaign and expressed my disappointment in the campaigns relationship with McClurkin.

You want to change the subject of the OP which was addressing your bigotry towards the Black church, by questioning my commitment to my friends in the GLBT community.

[jefferson_dem]

36. Is it idiocy because you've been busted

for using the sort of negative stereotyping you claim to deplore?

Perhaps you could demonstrate your concern is genuine if you were to point to some instances where you have called out some Obama-bashers for their hate and bigotry against faith communities.

***

[wndycty]

37. The reality is Obama fucked up and he definitely needs to be called out, however. . .

. . .the fact that many of those who are piling on back other candidates is not lost on me.

[ruggerson]

40. You must have missed me piling on Hillary for the exact same thing

n/t

[wndycty]

41. How many threads did you start on Hillary for the same thing?

1, 2, 3, 4,????

[terrya]

42. I would condemn any candidate who would do this.

Clinton, Edwards, Richardson...as well as Obama. Any candidate who would do this deserves to be called out. Again, people who would peddle bigotry of any kind...including homophobia...have no business in electoral politics. And most definitely NOT in a Presidential campaign.

The Republicans do this crap. Not us.

[ruggerson]

39. Is your position that much of the black faith community is not rife with homophobia?

Is that what you're really trying to tell us>?

Because, if so, you don't have a friggin' leg to stand on.

Unlike you, for me this is not about some fucked up kneejerk defense of a candidate who's gotten himself in hot water. This is about human rights.

[wndycty]

43. I won't disagree with you on that point, but you implied it was the entire Black faith community

:kick:

[dsc]

45. again where oh where was your outrage when this was posted

So you'd have to equally condemn EVERY Democratic candidate who appears at a black church
Edited on Sun Oct-21-07 01:04 AM by cryingshame
Cause let me tell you, many black Americans are pretty homophobic.

I didn't believe it either. It defies logic.

But Catwoman pointed me to a bunch of links showing the awful truth.

So if Obama and every Democratic candidate was going to not appear where there are Democrats who also happen to not be enlightened when it comes to gender issues-

they are going to be ignoring a huge part of our constituency.

People who agree with a lot of other things. A lot of issues.

I'd say it's important for Dem candidates to work on getting the point across that supporting gay rights is working for social justice just as working to ensure that blacks can vote.
Except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it. Psalm127:1

end of quote

and yes I am going to repeatedly ask you until I get an answer.

[wndycty]

People want to tell me when I where I should be outraged. . .

. . .can I do the same for you. If there is something that pisses you off, but I don't think you responded strong enough, can I call you out on that?

[dsc]

49. You have every right

to point out if I am calling one person a bigot and letting another skate for the exact same thing. That is exactly, precisely, and completely what you did to Ruggerson. Clearly your problem with Ruggerson is that he dared take on Obama and not what he said about Black churches. After all the post I quoted was far, far worse in that regard.

[wndycty]

50. My problem with Ruggerson is not about Obama its about his generalizing of Black churches

:kick:

[dsc]

52. Then why no problem with the several Obama defenders who

went even further than he did in those generalizations?

[ruggerson]

46. No I didn't

I was very clear in what I wrote. If that's what you GOT from it, rest assured, I don't think that. I understand that there are some loud voices in the black faith community that speak up for gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. Coretta Scott King herself was a shining example, But, unfortunately, until now, they have been drowned out by a chorus of bigoted preachers who sound exactly like their white baptist counterparts.

Let's both work to change that in the future.

Peace?

[jefferson_dem]

44. self delete.

Nevermind. It's really not worth it.

Cheers!

[ruggerson]

48. back atcha

n/t

[ruggerson]

4. And listen up

Faith does not automatically equal homophobia, as your OP implies.

I am objecting to bigotry, not to faith.

There are TONS of gay and lesbian people of faith and many of them are black.

STOP PRETENDING THEY CANNOT AND DO NOT EXIST.

[wndycty]

8. I was only quoting your words which were:

To black gays and lesbians and those on the down low
You have my undying respect for often having to brave a religious culture that demeans you, dehumanizes you, attacks you, demoralizes you and tells very fundamental lies about who you are.
-snip-

You didn't make any distinction, you made a generalization. Now you are welcome to correct yourself.

[ruggerson]

10. Often, repeat the word after me: Often

Get it?

Here let me rewrite it for you: You have my undying respect for having to brave a religious culture that often demeans you, dehumanizes you, attacks you, demoralizes you and tells lies about who you are.

[jefferson_dem]

14. You are correct.

Sadly, GLBTs are demeaned and ridiculed in all sorts of communities, especially by those who use religon to justify their hate-filled bigotry. To paint African-American faith communities with such a broad-brush as the OP did is totally wrong and ... is actually akin to the sort of negative sterotyping the poster claims to be so outraged by in the first place.

[wndycty]

15. Thank you, however I wish you weren't an Obama supporter. . .

. . .because no one will view your support of statement as being objective.

[jefferson_dem]

16. That's their fucking problem ... not mine.

I just call 'em as I see 'em.

:bounce:

[wndycty]

19. I appreciate that

:kick:

[DURHAM D]

29. SHAMEFUL

Your OP attacking another poster over something he/she did not say is SHAMEFUL.

[wndycty]

31. Bigotry, be it based on race or sexual orientation is shameful

:kick:

[dsc]

38. where oh where was your outrage here?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3628257&mesg_id=3628666

The post quoted is well before the one you complained about.

So you'd have to equally condemn EVERY Democratic candidate who appears at a black church
Edited on Sun Oct-21-07 01:04 AM by cryingshame
Cause let me tell you, many black Americans are pretty homophobic.

I didn't believe it either. It defies logic.

But Catwoman pointed me to a bunch of links showing the awful truth.

So if Obama and every Democratic candidate was going to not appear where there are Democrats who also happen to not be enlightened when it comes to gender issues-

they are going to be ignoring a huge part of our constituency.

People who agree with a lot of other things. A lot of issues.

I'd say it's important for Dem candidates to work on getting the point across that supporting gay rights is working for social justice just as working to ensure that blacks can vote.
Except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it. Psalm127:1

[Forkboy]

47. You and ruggerson are on the same side on this.

I like both of you so I hope you guys can resolve this peacefully.You're both fighting for the same thing.

[wndycty]

51. Not really an unacceptable generalization was made about Black churches. . .

. . .homophobia is wrong, so is bigotry against the Black church.

[dsc]

53. unless that bigotry is expressed by supporters of Obama to defend what he did

then it is hunky dory.

[Rhythm and Blue]

54. The black faith community is generally extremely intolerant of homosexuals.

So are rural evangelical churches. There are exceptions, sure, but they're not the rule. *shrug*

I grew up in a predominently black community. It's true. I wasn't aware that exposing systematic bigotry was in and of itself bigoted.

[zulchzulu]

55. Fleetwood Mac members are drug addicts, divorcees and hard drinkers...

The Clinton campaign needs to apologize for using their music for past events in the past. Are they promoting drug addiction and divorce?

Where is the outrage?


:sarcasm:

[dsc]

56. Given your cadidate's admitted cocaine use

I am not sure I would go there even with sarcasm.

[zulchzulu]

58. See how low you go...

Your "point" is duly noted.

[dsc]

60. as a recovering alchy myself

I am not terribly appreciate of the notion that drug use is evil which your joke perpetuated.

[illinoisprogressive]

57. condeming the whole black faith community is as bad as those on the far right with

their stupid thinking. I don't like this guy, which I have not read about it yet much, but, I don't approve of this singer, however, I am not going to over the edge, condemn everyone who is religious or try to label all religious people as bad. that is just as screwed up as the right wing and how they behave.

[ruggerson]

59. Yeah

what a bummer for you that no one did that.