Let's discuss immigration, but leave emotions at curb

[William769]

Hillary Clinton may get hammered by the American public for her comments during Tuesday's debate about New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer's move to grant driver's licenses to illegal immigrants.

Other Democratic candidates for the White House certainly tore into her.

Here's what she said, in part: "Do I think this is the best thing for any governor to do? No. But do I understand the sense of real desperation, trying to get a handle on this? Remember, in New York we want to know who's in New York. We want people to come out of the shadows. He's making an honest effort to do it. We should have passed immigration reform."

That will lead some voters - as former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina did - to accuse her of speaking out of both sides of her mouth.

She's not, though. Instead, Clinton perfectly mirrored the dilemma facing the country: It's deeply troubling that millions of people have entered the United States illegally. At the same time, that reality has to be dealt with. Refusing to give illegal immigrants driver's licenses makes it harder for police to handle traffic accidents, among a host of other problems that lack of identification creates. Indeed, that's why retired Des Moines Police Chief William McCarthy favored the change.

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071102/OPINION03/711020350/1110

[LakeSamish706]

1. It sure would be nice if the Federal Government would step up to the plate...

and do the job that they are supposed to be doing with respect to Illegal Aliens. If they secured the borders and got tough on companies that hire illegals, New York would not be faced with this problem.

[Virginia Dare]

5. What would the repubs do to stir up their racist xenophobic base then?

repubbies got to have their wedge issues you know.

[BridgeTheGap]

24. It ain't just republicans...and this issue is splitting them like nothing else

Because the business community wanted the cheap labor, it kept the repubs turning a blind eye. Now their chickens have come home to roost...serves them right!
It also makes them look like idiots for not securing the borders after all the "terror" hype - either that or they know that the terror threat ain't what its cracked up to be.

[Virginia Dare]

25. Of course they know that...

as evidenced by Rumsfeld's "snowflake" memos, in which he reiterated over and over again to keep hyping the threat of extremism and terrorism. There's no "there" there.

The chickens HAVE come home to roost, and in typical repub fashion, they're trying to turn the debate around onto the Democrats. Will it stick? Hard to say, but I'd love to see the Democrats take the lead on immigration reform, much like they did with civil rights back in the 60's. It's become a social issue now, and it will only get worse.

[DU9598]

16. Illegal Aliens?

Really? What criminal code did they violate that can lead to a criminal conviction? And alien; where are they from, Mars or Jupiter?

Undocumented human being is a more accurate term for our common man who our current xenophobic laws exclude from the same opportunities given to all of our grandparents, great-grandparents.

[rodeodance]

2. I would to have a discussion without getting bashed for having an opinion

[FormerDittoHead]

3. No emotion - what ADDRESS does an illegal resident put on their license?

...do you REALLY think people who KNOW that they're PRESENCE here is an illegal act will come forward and identify themselves and give a REAL address where they could be found at some time in the future?

What's the point?

[rodeodance]

4. I would like to know that all persons on the road have had some drivers education

[Rockholm]

6. Illegal aliens should not get a drivers license.

I can't go to Germany or England and get a drivers license if I were to decide to stay there for any length of time other than a holiday.
And another thing. That an pregnant illegal can enter this country, drop a child and that kid becomes a citizen irks the poop out of me. My brother-in-law lives in The Netherlands. His wife is Austrian. Both of their kids, born in The Netherlands have dual citizenship....American and Austrian, not Dutch.
Legal immigration should be relaxed a bit in my opinion, but illegals who enter this country should be sent packing.
The real challenge is what to do with millions already here. I have no answer for that. There a many ideas and this is going to be another big challenge for the country to work on.

PS: This is not intended for flame-bait, but I am sure it will rile up a few. In advance, i am sorry, but this is MY feeling on the illegal alien issue. I personally do not like interchanging immigrant and alien. Different animal.

[LakeSamish706]

8. I agree with you and don't understand why people have such a problem...

with the definition of "illegal".

[awoke_in_2003]

14. I agree, but too many here don't

They come here to get a job, I don't blame them one bit. But the problem is is that they come here and get exploited by greedy corporations because, after all, what can they do about it? Also, the influx of cheap labor makes it harder for people here legally to get decent paying jobs. And, to top it off, most here illegally are sending the majority of their paychecks home, taking the circulation out of our economy where it does no good for the American worker. Oh well, better put on my flame proof suit.

[Virginia Dare]

27. I agree with all of your points..

however, if they are truly doing jobs that Americans "won't" do, then there is clearly a problem. If they were paid a fair and prevailing wage, along with workers comp and benefits, my guess is the "problem" would go away.

The current situation is a win-win proposition for political leaders here and in Mexico and Central America. We get our cheap labor, and they ship out their underemployed citizens by the millions. Local politicians get their wedge issue. Not hard to figure out how we got stuck here.

[Rockholm]

48. Here in Boston, many of the those jobs are just like that.

Just ask Mitt Romney. The landscapers he used for many years hired many illegals. Most companies require an I-9 which declares an employee's legality to work in the US.
Small companies do exploit illegals.
I used to work for a large Boston hotel and all of the housekeepers and stewards were LEGAL immigrants. They were the hardest working people I had ever met.

[Tellurian]

7. Yes, I agree with Sen Clinton's analogy...It's a Federal problem the States are having to deal with.

The licensing of illegal aliens is already being dealt with the same way as Spitzer suggests in Texas and Florida. It's nothing new.

[William769]

9. Whats new is the candidates that tried to use it against her failed miserably.

We are now seeing desperation from the candidate's themselves.

[Tellurian]

44. With so much moderator bias showing, why aren't the Dems screamimg about this?

Russert's POV is 100% neocon. If that doesn't work, have a Dem moderator for Repug debates.

[Capn Sunshine]

45. Yet she couldn't commit to one side of the argument

because she needs to triangulate first.
Or so it would seem

[Tellurian]

51. Hillary stated it's a Federal problem..

1. that Bush refuses to deal with.

2. No, she doesn't agree that states should need to take drastic measures such as issuing (3?) driver's licenses. (because of #1)

3. She agrees with Spitzer because something has to be done to identify over a million+ illegals in the State of NY
for several reasons. One major reason IS They drive autos and are unlicensed and uninsured. (because of #1)

4. What Hillary didn't get a chance to say is two Bush states already have implemented this plan because of the influx of illegals in Texas and Florida. (because of #1)

Hopefully I've added some clarity to her answer, if you choose to understand what she was saying.

[Adelante]

10. What is John Edwards's position on the driver's licenses?

I haven't seen it.

I agree with the Register article, though, that Clinton was expressing a dilemma, a reality, not speaking out of two sides of her mouth.

[LeFleur1]

37. Speaking Out of Both Sides of Mouth...

I believe Hillar was stating (in answer to Tim Russet) exactly what is happening in the country today. It takes thought to look at all sides of a matter. Thought about issues is something that has been totally lacking today. It is no wonder when a thoughtful answer is given those who don't think at all would not recognize it as such.

[Adelante]

39. I thought, particularly for her, it was a bit clumsy

But that's in comparison to her usually perfect performance. The substance of what she said never escaped me, though.

[Solon]

11. I want to leave, does that count?

:hide:

[William769]

12. Is there anything stopping you?

[Solon]

13. Money, or the lack of it, wouldn't mind moving to GB or Ireland, Canada or...

Sweden or Germany.

[William769]

15. Good choices, with the exception of the weather.

:scared:

[Solon]

17. Not so bad, the weather in most of those places is mild, depending on where...

you choose to live IN those countries. Of course, if I wanted warmer weather, well, let's see, south of France, Spain, Italy, Greece, some smaller island nations of the Caribbean, etc.

[William769]

19. I live in South Florida.

Those sound more tempting.

[Solon]

20. I live in Missouri, I bet Great Britian is enjoying higher temps than I am right now.

28 fucking degrees Fahrenheit.

[William769]

21. Sunny windy and about 79 here.

Thats cold.

[Solon]

23. See, that's why I hate you...

Just Kidding!

[Blaze Diem]

28. I'm flying to Omaha t visit my daughter for Tksgvng. No Fly List?

Guess I'll find out then. I too have thought of countries I could move to. France is appealing, but it always has been of particular draw to me. No idea why.
I'm checking their visitor status today.
UK may be better simply because of the language thing, but I'll check a few countries out.
That is, if the no fly list clears my name.
This is so much B.S. anyway.
I'll take serious the "terrorist threat" when Bushco takes serious our ungarded southern border. Wonder if France would give me a drivers license?

[Solon]

29. I believe there is such a thing as an international driver's license...

Basically you take one written test for some common standards in most nations of the world, and then, when you move there and get a driver's license in a host country, its easier. Don't quote me on that, I don't know for sure. I went to Mexico for Senior trip in high school and rented a VW Bug for 30 bucks, for the day, to drive to Cozumel, never had legal problems, and that's with a Missouri Driver's license.

[Blaze Diem]

32. Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Would be good to find out though.

May help to speak the language of the country tho, for this esp. If it is true.
I was told that in some coutries if you fail their drv test you have to wait 6 months (varies with countries) or longer to retake the test. They were amazed that here in the US You could reschedule the test the next week.
Thanks for the info..but like a previous poster said, most Euro countries have better mass transptation than the US..Good rail system for travelling throught Euro. Unless that's also changed since george started this whole terror/war thing.

[Solon]

35. Actually, that isn't really true, I think it varies by state...

on the Driver's test at least. Also I think it depends on which part you failed on, written or driving.

[Blaze Diem]

38. Yes that is true, guess my point was that they were suprised by

the short wait time between retakes, as compared to other countries.
I think it may be up to states tho.
Too mush to keep up with anymore. Bush has changed a lot of things that made sense at one time.

[Solon]

40. Hell, its been over a decade since I initially took the test...

Hard to keep track of all the ups and downs of it unless you have a teenager who's old enough to drive.

[Blaze Diem]

41. Yep, & the written had me in a brief panic a few yrs ago.

Moved to a State that required the written for out of stste license holders to acquire one in their state. It was on a computer monitor, compared to the paper multi-choice I had taken, also yrs ago.

There a few trick questions and visual only questions that can trip you up. I felt really stupid tho I had driven in major cities in a few states. Far more driving exp. than I had when I took the original one. Tho that was in 1969. ha

[izquierdista]

22. If you want to leave

Just pack a big suitcase and go. Everything you need and more can be found in your new home, wherever you decide to land.

It helps to have some money in the back so you can rent a place of your own, but in no time, you can find jobs that pay the rent. And if you pick a normal country that has decent public transportation, you will be off of the treadmill that consumes a frightening amount of Americans' income, the personal car.

It's not that difficult.

[Solon]

26. You know, I was thinking about marrying a Canadian...

Just for the health benefits.

[CTyankee]

18. THANK YOU. I've been complaining about the lack of interest by DU on this issue

ever since the debate last week. Nobody responded to HRC's comment by offering his own ideas about immigration reform. It was all about her ambivilant stand on Spitzer's drivers license plan. Fine. But can't we have a debate on the issue at hand?

First of all, let's have the suggestion of a plan from one of the candidates. Then let the debate rip on the various parts of that plan, how to implement it, how to fund it, etc.

We live in a paradoxical state in this country on illegal aliens. We need them in our work force, but we hate them for getting a pass on living here illegally.

Thank you for getting the ball rolling, or attempting to, on DU!

[Blaze Diem]

30. I dont think its cuz of a lack of interest, but a lack of wanting to repeat

the same DUers who threaten to put you on ALERT & collectively try to set you up to get you kicked out of DU.
Yep it has happened.
I know who a few of them are.
Same answer to every point you try to make with them. They are incorrect on some of their arguments, and when I have pointed that out, their response is with flame. They are ready at that point to hit the ALERT key.

I won't bother with them anymore.

I am impressed today with the direction of this post, however. Its a touchy issue and one that should have been handled long ago & by the Fed.
Bush has made it a free for all as long as his corp base is protected.
I would bet Bush is quite amused by it all. Distracts from uniting the nation against his stupid war-for-profit fake presidency and adds to his mission of dismantling the American government system.

What an effin mess.

[CTyankee]

43. Things are getting touchy here. Mostly on Hillary right now.

I've been toying with the idea of starting a post entitled "How many people have you put on ignore because of Hillary?" But emotions are running just too high for that, I think.

I come to DU for information mostly, but also to understand some issues a little better. Too bad we can't touch some of them without searing our flesh off!

[izquierdista]

31. Angels dancing on the head of a pin

One has to go back a long way in history to find a debate which is more foolish than the current one on "illegal immigration". In the 1960 Presidential campaign, Quemoy and Matsu were vigorously debated, only to fade into obscurity a few months later. Unfortunately, this causes of this debate are not about to blow over that soon and it will continue to occupy the national attention. Many non-citizens are illegally working in the United States, and none, absolutely none of the policies debated will do anything about it.

How about the following, which is what most rational thinking countries do about the subject:

1) Don't let non-citizens work without the proper visas. That means not letting businesses pay them under the table, off the books, and seriously penalizing the businesses if they do.

2) Quit calling everyone who has come looking for a better job an "immigrant". I have chatted with many Hispanic day laborers and often I ask them why they came and if they plan to stay. To a one, the answer is (1)the economy is really crappy where I am from, so I came for the opportunity and (2) no, I don't want to stay, I'm sending money back to my family and after we get some saved up I can go home and be with them. Given the statistics on remittances sent to Mexico, I tend to believe my small sampling is indicative of the whole.

3) If you want to stem immigration from some country, quit trashing their economy! If people can make a decent living where they are, they are less likely to travel hundreds or thousands of miles to do so. Every time you see a Mexican cleaning up a yard with a leaf blower, you see someone who had to leave his village in Mexico because he couldn't make a living there, either growing corn on his land, or because the maquiladoras shut down and moved to China.

4) If you do decide to let foreigners stay longer than for just a tourist visit, treat them as guests and not as undeserving of basic human rights. If that means giving them a government issued document so that they can drive or use the library or enroll their children in school or any of a host of activities of modern life, then do it.

5) If people actively express an interest in living in the country permanently, then you can call them immigrants and offer to teach them, but not force them to learn English. For communities that have a high number of self-declared immigrants, provide basic English courses that are convenient through the local schools and community colleges.

The American system seems to take "penny-wise and pound-foolish" as its guiding principle. All the money in the world to build border fences and beef up "security" when a little development grant to impoverished areas in Mexico would stop people from needing to leave in the first place.

[Blaze Diem]

33. Common sense approach but you may encounter a problem with

#'s 4 & 5.

just saying..

[izquierdista]

34. The "I was here first" syndrome

Well, sure, everybody wants to shut the door behind them and not let anyone else in. And when someone new moves in, they look down their nose at them. Even in godforsaken shit-hole towns in the South that have nothing going for them, where the textile mill closed down long ago, they despise any Yankee moving in. :eyes:

[Blaze Diem]

36. Not the "I" or the Yankee anything. I just think your points in #4 & 5

are unrealistic expectations. In the ideal utopian world where everyone is grateful for everyone else, its fine.
But there are too many variables that go with this subject.

Not going to argue w/you. Its your opinion and your wish for immigration.
You do make some very good & reasonable points, however.

I personally would like to see our govt. address poverty and social issues in the US before overlooking them in a rush to show embracment of illegals, just in time for the upcoming political election.
My opinion.

[goodgd_yall]

47. Insightful post

Would #4 have been met with a guest worker program which had some (but not much) support? I thought that was a good idea.

[CTyankee]

50. How dare you make sense on this subject!

The fact is that we are all immigrants here, except for Native Americans. My Scottish ancestor came in 1790, as a result of the Clearances, in which the English moved Scots off their ancestral land and many came to America because their work and talent were needed. I have no idea whether he was legal or not. My other forbears escaped the 19th century poverty of Wales and again, I don't know what constituted "legal" when he got here. These people must have been pretty desperate to chance a crossing of the Atlantic in sailing ships. Who knows what jobs they "took away" from other Americans who were here before them?

Having said that, I really do think that immigration reform needs a defining plan, but probably it is a loser to try to do this in the midst of a heated presidential campaign. And I hope a Dem president will do it with great care...

[rinsd]

42. I rather give them licenses and start them on a path to citizenship

while addressing the economic concerns that cause such mass migration in the first place than round people up for deportation.

[ItNerd4life]

46. It's simple.

Step 1) Make it so no new illegal aliens can get in the country
Step 2) Up the number of legal immigrants to allow more people in, but legally
Step 3) Work on a plan to allow the illegal aliens to become legal

It's all I want, it's not too much to ask for is it?

I think most of the plans are only focusing on step 3 and pay steps 1 & 2 nothing but lip service.

[Mountainman]

49. "They" will cut her down no matter what she says. She can win if

she has he support of the Hispanic community and that is vastly larger than those opposed to giving illegals driving licenses. Why play to racists, fuck them!