Since the civil rights movement and race have been used to put the McClurkin issue in "perspective"

[wndycty]

I have a question for everyone and I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but I want to know the opinions of DUers, especially those who can approach this from an historical perspective.

First the setup. Many of those critical of Obama in his handling of the McClurkin debacle (and I think the overwhelming majority of us agree it was a stupid move on his campaign's part) have drawn parallels to race and the civil rights movement. While I'm not sure if its comparing apples to oranges it is a comparison that is often used.

Obama has consistently spoke out against homophobia and voted in support of many policies that are meant to protect or benefit the LGBT community, yet for some this McClurkin issue overshadows his record and gives others justification to call him a homophobic bigot.

THE QUESTIONGiven the parallels that are being drawn to race and the civil rights movement and the standards Obama is being held to, should the following individuals/and or organizations be considered racist bigots because they have not always been pure on the issues of race and the civil rights movement:

Abraham Lincoln
The Democratic Party
Senator Robert Byrd
John F. Kennedy
Robert Kennedy
Bill Clinton

I have consistently maintained the Obama campaign f'ed up, and I respect those who choose not to support him as a result of this mistake, but I take issue with those who seek to paint him as a homophobic bigot.

[mondo joe]

1. I don't think he's a bigot. I think he has a comfort level with bigots that I find

unacceptable.

[wndycty]

5. Its funny that you are so quick to pounce on Obama again without addressing the question

That is very telling. Let's not ignore the mistake Obama made by associating with McClurkin, but lets put it into perspective versus the likes of Abraham Lincoln, the Democratic Party, Bill Clinton, John F. Kennedy, Robert Byrd, Robert Kennedy, etc.

Talk to me about those guys, how should we view them considering that were not too pure on issues related to race and/or the civil rights movement.

[IndianaJones]

6. he answered the question. nt.

[mondo joe]

7. The question doesn't apply. I didn't say Obama was a homophobic bigot.

You're asking me to apply a standard to others that I didn't apply to Obama to begin with.

[wndycty]

11. OK since you didn't apply those standards, I will rephrase for you . . .

. . .should Obama be held to a separate standard? And if yes, why?

[mondo joe]

13. I don't have a separate standard - except 1 which is not Obama-specifice.

The one separate standard I have is time.

I don't expect FDR, for example, to have come out for same sex marriage, because that wasn't even an issue in his time.

With regard to Obama, I'm okay compromising on civil unions in this day and age because I think its the best we can do on the political front, would mark progress and would be a boon to people who need those benefits NOW, imperfect as it may be.

[illinoisprogressive]

2. This was being driven here by people who were anti Obama to begin with.

it had no bearing on facts or any real ideas discussion. it was pure flaming by anti Obama people with their agendas.
Look at Edwards and his discomfort with gays. I'm not knocking him as he is my second choice.
hillary has been endorsed by homophobic people as well.
hardly any candidate is pure. period.
This was purely a reason for the anti obama people to flame and trash him. Not anything substantive or any intellectual discourse on the matter.

[mondo joe]

3. If you want to completely discount the response of gays and lesbians, it is your right

to do so. But you're not making a very convincing case by perpetuating the offensiveness of the incident.

[MH1]

9. "Intellectual discourse"?

Methinks you're at the wrong website for that. ;)

[NMMNG]

18. I'm one of the people who has been "driving" the issue

And I was not anti-Obama, as you put it, before. Until he decided to do his 5 homophobe gospel tour I thought he was OK.

As to Hillary, I don't like her either, and not just because she cozies up to homophobes.

[sniffa]

20. you're such a Liar hiLLroid

wyndy has me on ignore so i'm gonna taLk about him since he can't see.

shouLd i go get my obama pictures for this thread? :hi:

[NMMNG]

27. Bite me

I got your picture right here



Mr. sniffa goes to Boston

[undercoverduer]

28. Obama never called anyone a curse. . .

. . .this is some self loathing bullshit.

[sniffa]

31. seLf Loathing?

if seLf now means, "obama supporters" then yes, that's an accurate depiction.

[undercoverduer]

37. Self loathing is you wanting to believe that Obama is calling homosexuality a curse, when he is. . .

. . .clearly not. This whole "Obama hates me because I'm gay" is some self loathing bullshit. He screwed up by bringing in that gospel singer but he was not at all calling anyone a curse.

[NMMNG]

33. You know what he means

Don't play coy.

[sniffa]

35. yeah, you Like that seLf Loathing comment?

:eyes:

[NMMNG]

40. Notice how it's only thrown at gay people?

How very. :puke:

[sniffa]

47. it's a great way to insuLt and defLect at the same time

hmmm, seLf Loathing obama supporters?

[undercoverduer]

38. I'm not playing coy. . .the gospel singer is a legitimate issue. . .

. . .but to infer that Obama is calling homosexuality a curse is self loathing. And to take a sign to an Obama rally accusing him of saying its a curse is a cry for attention, as I told that poster down line its time for some meds.

[NMMNG]

41. Obama praised McClurkin

He called him "my favorite singer".

He had the man emcee his gospel concert.

He let him do a 1/2 hour sermon against gay people.

AFAIC he condoned McClurkin's statement that gay people are a "curse" so anybody who wishes to can hold him to it. And your definition of "self-loathing" is way off.

[undercoverduer]

42. And how do you feel about Hillary's SC campaign chairs?

:shrug:

[undercoverduer]

43. One standard for Obama, another for Hillary. . .

. . .that is obvious. . .

[NMMNG]

44. Blah blah, Hillary, blah blah

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3679585&mesg_id=3680264

[terrya]

21. Here's what all of this is boiling down to, basically, from I'm seeing around here.

Obama did something that was "f*kd up". But other candidates essentially do the same thing, so therefore it's nothing more than supporters of other candidates stirring this up, so we basically need to get over it, because Obama says he's for GLBT rights, and we should be satisfied with that, so we whiny homos should just shut the fuck about it, because everybody else is sick of hearing about it.

Is this about right?

[undercoverduer]

22. Not at all. . .its that all candidates should be held to the same standard

No need to shut up, just be objective. Why does one candidate get the brunt of criticism when the others do essentially the same thing.

[wndycty]

23. Exactly. . .

. . .not sure what was said that you just responded to, however I think the gay community has every right to speak up, but I question it when one candidate is targeted and the others are not, especially when those other candidates have essentially the same record.

[NMMNG]

45. HILLARY!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3679585&mesg_id=3680264

[NMMNG]

30. Because what the other candidates do/did

Wasn't essentially the same thing. That's been explained a brazillion times but nobody seems to be listening or understanding.

[sniffa]

19. yeah, keep saying that

maybe it wiLL magicaLLy come true this time.

[Solon]

25. Your hit and run posts are tiresome, grow a backbone and confront your detractors. n/t

[Bluebear]

36. Holy trolly. As another poster says, stop with the hit & run posts.

[IndianaJones]

4. Robert Byrd is a bigot of the highest order. nt.

[rucky]

8. If he admitted fault, would it kill him & his campaign?

or would not admitting fault hurt him worse?

That's the box he's in.

Politicos and people tend to view admitting to a mistake as a sign of weakness, and in a competitive environment they get pounced upon for it. I think it's a damaging and inhuman (and uniquely American) value to never, ever admit fault unless you're cold-busted and facing immediate consequences (vitter).

I wish we could allow people to be upfront about their mistakes and not have it destroy him. But this is the environment created by the bloodthirsty media and culture here.

[wndycty]

10. Its funny everyone is avoiding the question. . .should we view the examples I gave. . .

. . .as racist bigots? Its a simple question. By the standards everyone is holding Obama to, shouldn't these same individuals and organizations be considered racist bigots?

[mondo joe]

14. I still don't get the question, but I'm trying. It might help if you could say in

objective terms what are the "standards" you think Obama is being held to.

[wndycty]

15. The standard I'm raising is the belief that a negative incident should overshadow one's overall. .

. . .record.

I don't believe it should. I believe that Obama is deserving of criticism for his association with McClurkin, but I don't like how that association is being used by some to define him as a homophobic bigot. Additionally, the other day the McClurkin issue was used to justify attacking him on the issue of gay marriage, while ignoring the fact that other candidates were also not in support of gay marriage.

[mondo joe]

16. I see. Well, I don't hold to that standard.

But I do have my own standards that can ultimately be crossed. Obama did that for me.

[hulklogan]

12. Obama himself is not a bigot

He was pandering to / associating with / giving a platform to bigots.

The same standard applies to all of the names you mentioned, and they're all just as guilty as Obama (or worse in some cases).

It's too bad that some people have had to resort to hyperbole on this issue by calling Obama a bigot, but it should be expected when the supposed progressives on DU repeatedly try to diminish the real offense that some people felt or continually excuse Obama's lack of concern for the GLBT community on this one issue.

[iverglas]

17. the apples and oranges are thine own

And there are several varieties of citrus in your basket.

Abraham Lincoln
There is little point in "judging" anyone who is long dead by any standard that would be applied to someone now living and acting. By the standards we adhere to today, virtually anyone who lived before the last century would be regarded as an insane barbarian.

The Democratic Party
Which one? The one comprised of people who died before the last century? The one people here support federally in the US? The ones that existed in various places in the US in the last century? Can a collective entity have any set of common characteristics other than those that expressly define it as an entity?

John F. Kennedy
Robert Kennedy
Did they use performances by known, outspoken racist bigots to raise money?

Maybe they did, I dunno. And then we'd be back to judging dead people by standards we apply to ourselves.

Bill Clinton
I don't know what you have in mind here. Did he use performances by known, outspoken racist bigots to raise money, and permit them to use their shared platform to express their bigotry to an appreciative audience, in order to get their votes?

And of course, as others have said, not a lot of people here actually called Obama a homophobic bigot. So for them (including me), the answer to your question, which boils down to:

If Obama is a homophobic bigot, was so-and-so a racist bigot?

is necessarily "Mu". The question is loaded with a false premise: the opinion that those being asked it did not express.

I still wonder, though. I'm not a huge fan of Bill Clinton, whom I regard as smack in the right-wing mainstream of US politics. But what might he have done that is actually COMPARABLE to what Obama has done?

[Solon]

24. Abe Lincoln wanted to initially kick the blacks out of the country and send them "back" to Africa...

Racist? You better believe it. Though, later on in his Presidency, when he actually started to know some African-Americans, particularly Fredrick Douglass, he softened on the issue.

The Democratic Party, for much of its history, was pro-slavery, pro-Jim Crow, and pro-Segregationist, so bigoted in the past, yes. Today on GBLT rights, its still bigoted.

Same for Senator Byrd.

JFK and RFK are a little more difficult, JFK was most likely a racist, viewing Civil Rights as politically expedient. However, his brother, on the other hand, seemed to have actually worked to eliminate his own prejudices, so I don't think its accurate to call him a racist.

Bill Clinton, on GBLT rights, is a bigot, DOMA anyone?

[undercoverduer]

26. I don't think the OP is calling any of them bigots. . .

. . .but if you extract moments in their careers and judge them by the same standards you judge Obama they would be bigots.

[Solon]

46. Exactly, I don't see why people would have a problem with that...

Of course, the advantage of looking back at dead people is that you can determine whether they learned anything new or overcame their bigotry within their lives. RFK and Lincoln are two that come to mind.

[sniffa]

29. then why single out obama!!!1!!?

it's not fair. :cry:

don't worry, he can't see this.

[undercoverduer]

32. LOL you seem kind of obsessed with him ignoring you. . .

. . .may I recommend better meds so you can get over him ignoring you, since you obviously seeking attention.

[sniffa]

34. sorry, it's the seLf Loathing

[undercoverduer]

39. I enjoy the sarcasm. . .

. . .I'm not saying don't criticize Obama for the gospel singer, however I think we you ignore the rest of his record that is some serious bullshit.