Obama's Actual Argument about the Baby Boomer Generation

[obamian]

Obama recognizes the accomplishments of the baby boomer generation.


From the Audacity of Hope:

“In the back-and-forth between Clinton and Gingrich, and in the elections of 2000 and 2004,I sometimes felt as if I were watching the psychodrama of the Baby Boom generation — a tale rooted in old grudges and revenge plots hatched on a handful of college campuses long ago — played out on the national stage. The victories that the 60’s generation brought about — the admission of minorities and women into full citizenship, the strengthening of individual liberties and the healthy willingness to question authority — have made America a far better place for all its citizens. But what has been lost in the process, and has yet to be replaced, are those shared assumptions — that quality of trust and fellow feeling — that bring us together as Americans.”

He wants to move past the arguments of the baby boomer generation.

Meet the Press:

"I think, I think the categories we’ve been using were forged in the ‘60s. You know, I think the arguments about big government vs. small government, the arguments about, you know, the sexual revolution, military vs. nonmilitary solutions to problems. I think, in each and every instance, a lot of what we think about is shaped by the ’60s, and partly, you know, the baby boomers is—are a big demographic... Our politics isn’t that different, and my suggestion is that—take the example of big government vs. small government.
“My instinct is that the current generation is more interested in smart government. Let’s have enough government to get the job done. If, if we’re looking at problems, if the market solution works, let’s go with the market solution. If a solution requires government intervention, let’s do that. But let’s look at what are the practical outcomes. And I think that kind of politics is what the country’s hungry for right now."

http://www.counterpunch.org/donnelly01182007.html

He realizes when he was born, but he is still not of the baby boomer generation.

From a recent Interview With Andrew Sullivan:

Obama, simply by virtue of when he was born, is free of this defensiveness. Strictly speaking, he is at the tail end of the Boomer generation. But he is not of it.

"My mother, you know, was smack-dab in the middle of the baby boom generation. She was only eighteen when she had me. So when I think of baby boomers, I think of my mother’s generation. I was too young for the formative period of the ’60s—civil rights, sexual revolution, Vietnam war. Those all sort of passed me by. So I really came of age in the ’70s, ’80s and early ’90s.

The battles between Gingrich and Clinton were battles that took place in dorm rooms between young Republicans and young Democrats 20, 30 years ago. And that’s part of what we have to transcend. We’re re-litigating sex, drugs, rock-and-roll, Vietnam. And that’s part of why I think it’s so important to use this election to finally settle some of those arguments.

Because—here’s the interesting thing, Andrew—I think that the American people, in their own lives, have actually moved beyond these arguments. I think the American people recognize that, listen, it is both a good thing that women are liberated and gays and lesbians are treated with dignity and respect, and there’s nothing wrong with the virtues of monogamy as an aspirational goal.

Or, that it was a mistake for us to, after Vietnam, think that America could do no right and that there was never appropriate times for military action. But on the other hand, it still makes sense for us to be measured and thoughtful when we use our military and understand that the most important tool in ensuring our safety is the tools of diplomacy and our political and cultural power, and economic power.

So, you know, they’ve moved beyond a lot of these arguments. Politics has not."

http://www.theatlantic.com/audio/200712/obama.mhtml

Obama believes he can do a better job than Hillary Clinton of getting past those arguments.

"I think there is no doubt that we represent the kind of change that Senator Clinton can't deliver on, and part of it is generational," "I mean, Senator Clinton and others, they've been fighting some of the same fights since the '60s, and it makes it very difficult for them to bring the country together to get things done."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/11/08/obama-hits-generational-d_n_71729.html

He doesn't think no one over 50 should run for president as the Clinton campaign is responding. Although there is a generational difference with some of the other candidates, (Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, and Bill Richardson), they don't represent the battles of the baby boomer generation as much as Hillary. Sullivan argues:

"Clinton will always be, in the minds of so many, the young woman who gave the commencement address at Wellesley, who sat in on the Nixon implosion and who once disdained baking cookies. For some, her husband will always be the draft dodger who smoked pot and wouldn’t admit it. And however hard she tries, there is nothing Hillary Clinton can do about it."

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200712/obama/2

You can agree or disagree with what Obama is saying, but please don't misrepresent his arguments.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cuke]

6. I'm not the one breakiing the rules, calling others names

[jefferson_dem]

9. Good point. Fixed now.

Sorry about that. <--- See. :toast:

[cuke]

2. Obama talks with forked tongue

We already know he will say one thing and do another. Pointing out more of his double talk doesn't help your case

[durrrty libby]

4. True dat. That ship has sailed

[polichick]

3. Yes, these are some of the disturbing quotes we've been talking about. nt

[Colobo]

5. They aren't disturbing. They are accurate.

[durrrty libby]

8. and disturbing

[polichick]

10. Well, I don't want to cover ground already covered in other threads...

But I'll point out one little tidbit just for fun ~ if Obama's mother was 18 when he was born in 1961, he is a baby boomer but she was not.

[cuke]

14. Very disturbing

"The victories that the 60’s generation brought about — the admission of minorities and women into full citizenship, the strengthening of individual liberties and the healthy willingness to question authority — have made America a far better place for all its citizens. But what has been lost in the process, and has yet to be replaced, are those shared assumptions — that quality of trust and fellow feeling — that bring us together as Americans.”"

Exactly what "quality of trust and fellow feeling" did we have while denying equal rights to millions of blacks and women? While blacklisting anyone who might be a "commie"?

These "shared assumptions" like white supremacy, american exceptionalism, and using our military to oppress people overseas under the guise of "spreading democracy" are the basis of our imperialism and militarism.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

7. I don't see any meaning here... it's extended slogans and straw man arguments

For instance, "we" did not think after Vietnam that America could do no right, or that there was no possible use for military force (though his eagerness on that point is pretty chilling)

He is talking about a fantasy "we" in his head. America was never unified on the straw man position he posits, or on any other position.

And which really cool wars does Obama think we failed to fight because of our Vietnam hangover? I think we've fought plenty, thank you.

I used to think he was a nice, charismatic man in a little over his head. Now I am starting to see that he's a trivial egomaniac and a complete fool.

Is he so naive that he thinks Newt Gingrich would not have tried to undo a half century of progress if Bill Clinton wasn't opposing him?

This is the same self-centered, thoughtless "unity" gibberish we've been getting from David Broder for decades. Just the usual call for capitulation.

[polichick]

15. You said it:

"I used to think he was a nice, charismatic man in a little over his head. Now I am starting to see that he's a trivial egomaniac and a complete fool."

It makes me sad more than anything else.

[cuke]

16. That's exactly what I find disturbing about it

He thinks "we" think America can't do right. That's what the repukes say!!!

If you read carefully, those quotes are a call to abandon our principles and agree with the repukes and that we should take the blame for the bitterness of the last few decades

[goodgd_yall]

11. I can't relate to this guy Obama.

And Andrew Sullivan's quote just makes matters worse.

[Imagevision]

36. With Hillary's backing of big biz I must agree with Obama that she will be Bushlite...

[mark414]

12. good post, he is absolutely right

what i really don't understand is why people are having such a fit about this and taking it personally as if obama himself called them up and said "hey boomer, fuck off!"

obama is not talking about you, and neither am i.

though i think it is mostly accurate to say that those making the most noise about this probably aren't and never will be obama fans anyways...



(waiting for the post that takes it personally and argues about how my post does not apply specifically to them)

[cuke]

17. If he's not talking about boomers, the who is he talking about?

[mark414]

19. i mean he's not talking about YOU

people on this site are very apt to get righteously outraged and offended by every little thing. most of the reactions to this ridiculous distraction seem to come from people who are taking it completely personally, as if obama was somehow referring specifically to them when he "said" things that are being completely distorted and used by people who never supported him anyways as another excuse to attack. people need to stop being so thin skinned and take a look at the bigger picture and realize that it's bigger than just them.

which is exactly what he IS talking about, and the irony of it all flies right over the heads of those who have an ax to grind.

the truth hurts, and obama is telling the truth.

[cuke]

23. How does this not apply to my parents?

"Senator Clinton and others, they've been fighting some of the same fights since the '60s"

My parents were some of those people fighting some of the same fights since the 60's.

[mark414]

25. my parents too, and they agree with obama

which is why they're voting for and donating to him.

when i first caught wind of this (oh heavens!) "scandal" i sent it along to my dad, who rightly laughed it off.

"who takes themselves seriously enough to be pissed off about this?" said my pops the boomer.

it is laughable that some people are actually offended by this. get over yourself, you are not as important as you think you are(not you, in the general sense).

and neither am i. i am a peon of the world who will pass through history in the blink of an eye. i don't have the time, patience or vanity for self-righteous indignation. grow up and move on, and look at the real problems. look at the real picture, all at once instead of piece by piece. and you'll see why obama needs to be the democratic nominee.

[cuke]

27. Good for them

My mother disagrees. You said she shouldnt be personally offended. Why not?

And it's not a scandal. It's just a piss poor strategy that disrespects an entire generation. This guy is running for president. Why should I ignore his lack of respect for the sacrifices others made, particularly when without those sacrifices Obama would not be running. He wouldn't have even gotten into law school

[mark414]

he didn't say that at all

but i know i won't change your mind. so i won't say anything more.

[cuke]

33. Here is what he said, in quotes

"it makes it very difficult for them to bring the country together to get things done."

How does my mother, and people like her, make it more difficult to get things done?

[mark414]

41. forgot the first part

"they've been fighting some of the same fights since the '60s, and it makes it very difficult for them to bring the country together to get things done."

he is referring to the atmosphere brought about by these arguments, not the people making them.

again, much ado about nothing. he's saying something that obvious to everybody.

the current political scene, and greater societal scene in general is "run" by baby boomers and in a big way they control the message and the means. the political atmosphere is so poisonous because of these long standing rivalries that this makes it difficult for people to get things done.

it is dishonest to pretend that obama is personally insulting people.

okay, NOW i won't say anything further

[eallen]

39. It depends on how much you are vested in the fight rather than the cause.

There's a subtle distinction there.

:hippie:

[durrrty libby]

30. His truth is in another dimension

[bettyellen]

40. he's talking about sterotypes that symbolized the era- archie and his meathead nephew

and they are so exagerrated as to be meaningless. i agree that no one should be offended.
but this is all marketing... he wants to take the icky idealogical fights out of politics. it's almost cute!
i'm sure he can sell this to people, but not the ones who actually give enough of a fuck to vote.


and how are you? loong time, no see.
:hi:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

46. Thank you! He's talking about symbols, cultural references, and proxies.

I don't know where these people were in the 80s and 90s, when the very things that Obama is referencing were a huge part of the political dialogue. The Republicans swept into power in '92 in no small part by characterizing Democrats and liberals as draft dodging, pot smoking, hippie throwbacks. This isn't personal because those were bullshit memes with no basis in reality. But Obama is right that Clinton brings all that stuff up again. It's not her fault but it just is what it is. People better realize that if she's the nom we are going to go through that same cultural argument again.

[jefferson_dem]

20. They know what he meant.

The point is to create doubt by stirring up shit.

[itsrobert]

13. Thanks, it's nice to see someone post actual quotes

I'm not totally sold on Obama, but I can respect the man. I don't think he ever intended to bash boomers (and he didn't) like some other candidate supporters are trying to make it out to be.

[durrrty libby]

34. Excuse you for poor interpretation

[cali]

18. it's not a terribly impressive way to draw a distinction

shorter obama: those are old tired people representing old tired idea and fighting old and no longer germane battles. I'm young and vibrant (think Kennedy in 1960). I like Obama, but this is not a relevant distinction.

[Mend]

24. He's no John Kennedy and I am profoundly offended by his slurs to my

generation. If he can't sell himself to America on his issues and stop putting down other candidates, he should go shit in his hat.

[durrrty libby]

29. Bravo....Well Done

:woohoo: :applause: :applause: :woohoo:

[AtomicKitten]

21. I think most here are comfortable with the MSM misrepresentation of this.

Not conducive to honest debate, but it rallies the detractors to pile on. They only notice the Media Heathers reindeer games when it steps on their candidate's toes. And so it goes.

[madrchsod]

28. oh smack!

......"media heathers".... :applause:

[DURHAM D]

37. What MSM misrepresentation?

This is a case of Obama bringing trouble to himself going back at least a year re: January 21, 2007 article in NY Times. He did not recently say anything in the heat of the moment or make a casual comment. This is what he believes.

What I don't understand is why someone didn't jerk him by the short hairs a year ago and tell him that while he may not intend to offend an entire group of people he was indeed offending a whole group of people.

I for one take this personal. Early activists didn't hang out in the dorm rooms (well, maybe the status quote jerks stayed in their rooms) as Obama suggested -the 60s and 70s activists were in the streets and busy attending speeches. We didn't have Republican vs. Democrat discussions as he suggested. We had arguments about right and wrong - I don't ever remember having a discussion about party affiliation or platforms. The activists were a minority. It was rough. We were working against a very strong establishment. But we thought things needed to improve, to change.

Some picked the right side back then and have stayed on the unfinished journey.

One side was right - the other wrong. And now it seems not to matter.

[Pirate Smile]

22. Marilyn Quayle from the 1992 Republican Convention keeps springing to my mind during this back and

forth - "... not everyone demonstrated, dropped out, took drugs, joined in the sexual revolution or dodged the draft" blah, blah, blah.

[Pirate Smile]

32. I found an interesting article on this issue - the real one, not the made up one:

The Hippie Era Just Won't Die
Paul Waldman
December 13, 2006

Paul Waldman is a senior fellow at Media Matters for America and the author of the new book, Being Right is Not Enough: What Progressives Can Learn From Conservative Success (John Wiley & Sons). The views expressed here are his own

-snip-
Still Fighting the Hippies

The current incarnation of the culture war didn’t just begin in the sixties—it is, to this day, about the '60s. That decade divided the country in two: you were either cool or square, with it or a stuffed shirt. Which side of that divide you placed yourself—whether you grew your hair long or cut it short, supported Vietnam or opposed it, thought free love would lead to the decline of civilization or thanked your lucky stars it came along while you were still young—continues to determine how people who were around at the time look at not only the '60s, but today’s politics as well.

Consider this piece of public opinion data, courtesy of the National Election Studies carried out every two years since 1952 by the University of Michigan. One of the NES questions asks respondents how liberal or conservative they think the candidates running for president are. The ratings given to Bill Clinton by people calling themselves conservatives would have made him the most liberal presidential candidate of the last half-century—more liberal than Hubert Humphrey, or Walter Mondale, or Michael Dukakis or even George McGovern. Now if you think Bill Clinton is more liberal than George McGovern, you’re living in a strange fantasy world. But the conservatives of 1992 and 1996 rated him as more liberal than the conservatives of 1972 rated McGovern.

Why? Consider that avid culture warrior Newt Gingrich once called Bill and Hillary Clinton ‘counter-culture McGoverniks,’ as though they spent the Summer of Love driving to Haight-Ashbury in their VW Microbus, dropping acid all along the way. Anyone who has seen photos of Hillary from that time knows that she was more than a few steps from ‘counter-culture.’ As for Bill, he didn’t even know how to inhale. In fairness, the two did work for George McGovern in 1972—but Bill, the recent law school grad, was in charge of McGovern’s Texas campaign, a staff position that probably necessitated the wearing of a tie.

The facts of their not-so-misspent youth are beside the point. The Clintons came to embody everything that conservatives hate about the '60s. For better or worse (and there’s a case to be made for each), a general election in which Hillary is matched up against a Republican will almost inevitably see one more smackdown between the hippies and the squares. (And if you think which Republican it is matters at all, consider the drubbing war hero John Kerry took from draft-dodgers Bush and Cheney over Vietnam.)

There’s no doubt that Barack Obama is hoping that voters, particularly those in the Democratic primary, will be looking for a respite from the 40-year war that began when his opponents were young adults and he was in elementary school. "Although his instincts were right on target," Obama recently told The New York Times , speaking about Bill Clinton and the bitter disputes of the '60s, "and I think, intellectually and pragmatically, he understood that America wanted to move beyond those categories, in some ways he was trapped by his biography." In other words, the fact that Clinton was a baby boomer meant he had no way of transcending the culture war—Obama is attempting to make the case that he can.

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/12/13/the_hippie_era_just_wont_die.php

[madrchsod]

26. he`s right

"I think there is no doubt that we represent the kind of change that Senator Clinton can't deliver on, and part of it is generational," "I mean, Senator Clinton and others, they've been fighting some of the same fights since the '60s, and it makes it very difficult for them to bring the country together to get things done."

if we do not learn from our mistakes we will doom the next generations to failure

[illinoisprogressive]

31. As usual clinton and her supporters are being overwrought

[durrrty libby]

35. No they are .honest. Try it sometime

[Capn Sunshine]

47. Honestly assinine

I can't recall in the past six years here when I've seen so much slanderous bullshit in the name of a candidate. Ever.

[CyberPieHole]

38. "Strictly speaking, he is at the tail end of the Boomer generation."

He may think "he is not of it". But Obama is full of it.


More waffling and parsing from Senator Obama.

[rufus dog]

42. let's follow your logic

We will ignore the context and his actual words, but using your logic since he was born in '61 he is a baby boomer and he is full of it and waffling! So if he was white and born in Alabama back country is he KKK? Even if he said he disagreed with the message and methodology! And before going off on some idiotic Hannity/O'Reilly rant, please consider his context and intent.

p.s. I used an idiotic comparison for a reason.

[CyberPieHole]

43. How can I consider his "context" and "intent" when it changes all the time...

I have a feeling you used an "idiotic comparison" for lack of any other.

[girl gone mad]

44. I agree with him 100%.

It's time for the boomers with this mentality to get off the stage. This country is ready for new ideas.

[Texas_Kat]

45. Thanks for these

What he's said and what he MEANS BY IT is worse than I thought.

[kelligesq]

48. Will the real Obama show himself - well maybe he is beginning to - he's

an inexperienced arrogant bag of hot air.

I haven't liked him or trusted him from the git go.

How dare he speak about Vietnam and what it did to this
country.  He wasn't there. It was the growing up of America
and we havent trusted our governments since, only we never had
a govt THIS BAD before

If it wasn't for the boomers,black and white, rioting and
getting shot and getting their heads cracked open for his
freedom, he'd still be riding in the back of a bus today, not
being a presidential candidate. that jackass.

And if he thinks the matters of gay and lesbians and
racism are settled and the past - I'd like to know what planet
he's living on.

Out of touch, inexperienced, young, arrogant jackass.

His generation gave us Reagan and Gingrich.  What do you think
he's going to do for you?

[BootinUp]

49. Sullivan is an ass

talking about Clinton's pot smoking thing but apparently forgetting Obama's own admission about drug use.

[PatSeg]

50. I've overlooked and forgiven a lot of things Obama has said,

but his references to "baby boomers" and the sixties was just too much for me.

I've tried to convey to my children the way life used to be in that "golden era" of the fifties - a time when birth control was illegal, abortions were performed by hacks in dark corners of society, drinking fountains and washrooms could be designated "colored" and "white", schools were segregated, women could be refused a job or a promotion because she might get pregnant, a landlord could discriminate against a person because of race, religion, or nationality, and all positions of power politically and in business were held by white men.

No generation is perfect and there were mistakes made, but the changes that came about in the cultural revolution of the sixties and seventies are now taken for granted by those who were not around to see how they came about.

To my mind, Senator Obama has alienated a huge segment of voters. His statements trivialize the changes that were made, changes that give him the opportunity to be a viable candidate for president of the United States. I am offended and I think I have that right. I was there and he wasn't. Any appeal he had for me is lost now. I will be angry for a long time.

[Texas_Kat]

51. Yeah, this is the kind of long-lasting impression

that changes careers. And not in a good way. At least till most of us who fought in the 60s for the right for him to run as president die off.

[PatSeg]

52. I'm really pissed

My generation has been trivialized, as if our accomplishments were insignificant. I remember the things my children's generation has only read about. Obama has shown a poor grasp of history. In his attempt to bring down an opponent, he has brought down an entire generation, a generation who VOTES. God help him, because I won't.

[kelligesq]

54. Agreed, changes career. This is his "mukaka" . Doubt Oprah will be

endorsing anyone anytime soon again.

[killbotfactory]

53. Wow

Obama is saying that the baby-boomers are right, that Americans accept the changes that have taken place during the baby-boomer generation, and that despite this politicians are still arguing over them? He dare suggests that generations see things differently from each other? Oh. my. god. I am about to pass out from fury.