"You need to embrace Christ precisely because you have sins to wash away"

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

This speech by Senator Obama is not offered as a positive or negative. I am posting it, without editorial comment, only because a portion of the quote in this post's headline ("You need to embrace Christ") has appeared in several different threads today without any context or link, so this post answers about 12 different requests for source and context from those threads. (Since it's text of a speech from a Senate web-site I don't think the four paragraph rule applies, but this is still just an excerpt. There is much more to the speech at the link.)

'Call to Renewal' Keynote Address
Wednesday, June 28, 2006

. . .

For one thing, I believed and still believe in the power of the African-American religious tradition to spur social change, a power made real by some of the leaders here today. Because of its past, the black church understands in an intimate way the Biblical call to feed the hungry and cloth the naked and challenge powers and principalities. And in its historical struggles for freedom and the rights of man, I was able to see faith as more than just a comfort to the weary or a hedge against death, but rather as an active, palpable agent in the world. As a source of hope.

And perhaps it was out of this intimate knowledge of hardship -- the grounding of faith in struggle -- that the church offered me a second insight, one that I think is important to emphasize today.

Faith doesn't mean that you don't have doubts.

You need to come to church in the first place precisely because you are first of this world, not apart from it. You need to embrace Christ precisely because you have sins to wash away - because you are human and need an ally in this difficult journey.

It was because of these newfound understandings that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ on 95th Street in the Southside of Chicago one day and affirm my Christian faith. It came about as a choice, and not an epiphany. I didn't fall out in church. The questions I had didn't magically disappear. But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side, I felt that I heard God's spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth.

That's a path that has been shared by millions upon millions of Americans - evangelicals, Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Muslims alike; some since birth, others at certain turning points in their lives. It is not something they set apart from the rest of their beliefs and values. In fact, it is often what drives their beliefs and their values.

And that is why that, if we truly hope to speak to people where they're at - to communicate our hopes and values in a way that's relevant to their own - then as progressives, we cannot abandon the field of religious discourse...


http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal/index.php

[Colobo]

1. He said that to himself. He's talking about his conversion

to Christianity. I don't understand what are some people trying to "prove" or "accomplish"...

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

6. It was not my intention to be unfair. I added more of the context.

(I had it clipped tight because of the four paragraph rule, but that probably doesn't apply to this, being from the Senate web-site)

[H2O Man]

78. I think it was. n/t

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

84. This comment says it all. It is now "unfair" to post the man's speeches without comment

[Bluebear]

2. Holy moly. nt

[elizm]

16. Read the freaking speech!!

Or are you not capable of comprehending it? Are you only capable of resonding to flame bait?

[PurityOfEssence]

52. Did YOU read this sanctimonious bilge-water?

In the end, it's a call to inject more religion into government and have the government endorse more religion. I don't say this lightly, but this reminds me of the Ronald Reagan approach: the big, broad smile and the "what's the big deal" approach. Everyone knows religion's a good thing. People are really hollow and lost without it. Okay, I'll tolerate those who haven't seen the light or have seen the wrong light, but we all KNOW what's really right, don't we?

Here, parse this quote:

It is doubtful that children reciting the Pledge of Allegiance feel oppressed or brainwashed as a consequence of muttering the phrase "under God." I didn't. Having voluntary student prayer groups use school property to meet should not be a threat, any more than its use by the High School Republicans should threaten Democrats. And one can envision certain faith-based programs - targeting ex-offenders or substance abusers - that offer a uniquely powerful way of solving problems.

Bull fucking shit. I walked out of the Presbyterian church at the age of six, and mercifully had an enlightened Dad (still alive and still a believer) who supported me on the decision. Mom, a believer to her dying day didn't, and it was a source of strife right up to that point. My one sibling is very christian, and we're in good contact and always have been.

I felt disgusted and brutalized having to say that damned thing; I simply skipped the two offensive words when doing it. Maybe that's because I didn't "mutter" the phrase; I actually like to believe in what I'm doing and saying. Perhaps this is part of the problem: lazy and sloppy affiliation with peer pressure.

This one paragraph I quote shows him to be cynical in the extreme: not seeing the danger of incorporating the supernatural in attempting to solve chemical dependencies and behavioral problems, and DEMANDING that others not only put up with this brainwashing but PAY FOR IT.

This is bullshit. This speech is bullshit. For all the truly decent sentiment here that discourse on this level shouldn't be off limits, he JUST DOESN'T GET IT. This crap is an intrusion into the rest of our lives, and when endorsed by the government, makes the rest of us little more than serfs. I don't want to cram my beliefs down their throats, and I feel it's nothing more than the base level of human decency to expect the same in return.

No, this person is just another who wants it both ways: to be seen as tolerant while insidiously and subversively inundating our lives with group tyranny and state-sponsored fantasy.

Any policy that can't be explained or justified in purely secular terms simply doesn't need to be enacted. It's as simple as that. If the advantages and disadvantages can't be described without resorting to fearful dark fantasies or joyous bright delusions, the project in question isn't needed or justified.

The argument often brought by the religious is a spurious one: they depict a binary split between either the sacred or the secular. This is probably because christianity (and islam) both grant their believers the right to force their way into people's lives and aggressively scare or tempt people into their mindset. The choice is really this: religion, non-religion or anti-religion. The absense of religion (secularism) is not a statement against religion, whereas an evocation of faith, when endorsed by the government IS an aggressive attack against other presumptions, and is the equivalent of anti-religion.

He's probably sincere in his faith, and there is a fine line between campaigning and governing, but he goes WAY too far. His great big snake oil show in South Carolina is a classic example: he wasn't just being one with the community and fostering a feeling of belonging, he was reminding them that he's closer to them than that white woman and if they have this odd habit of hating the homos, that's all okay in the eyes of god, too. Just to prove the point, even if he will accomodate the degenerates by bringing in a non-hetero, it won't truly be one of the group, it'll be a white guy. It's the same primitive tribal crap that reeks from virtually all organized religions: there's an "us" and there's a "them".

He's using religion, he's using it cynically and he's using it with the "given" that it's something we all really need anyway.

He's much more than crossed the line, and it's an affront to the rest of us and an insult to our perception to try to gloss over the obvious.

People who believe are not superior to those who don't, and just because they try to be somewhat inclusive, if they demand to have their delusion used as a valid reason for doing or not doing something, they're being domineering and intolerant. This is crap, and this speech is a classic, cynical, pompous, self-satisfied demand for some sort of ideological aristocracy based on glorified fantasy.

[NMMNG]

56. If only I could recommend this post

It is so worthy.

[Maven]

73. Wow.

Wonderful, wonderful post.

[October]

80. Standing Ovation

That was an excellent post -- very articulate and spot-on.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

82. an ironic but heartfelt AMEN

[sufrommich]

95. Great post! And this:

"Any policy that can't be explained or justified in purely secular terms simply doesn't need to be enacted. It's as simple as that. If the advantages and disadvantages can't be described without resorting to fearful dark fantasies or joyous bright delusions, the project in question isn't needed or justified."

should be such obvious truth to fellow Dems. I'm not attacking Obama,I resent all the Democratic candidates mixing religion with politics.Dems should be countering the infusion of religion into politics,not legitimizing it.

[Bluebear]

60. Yeah, I only resond to flame bait, whoever the hell you are.

:eyes:

[CnAnPB]

3. "you have sins to wash away"

Guess that's why Obama threw unapologetic Gays under his GObama bus

[Colobo]

4. I bet Hillary believes Jesus's blood washed

the World's sins away. After all, she's a Methodist.

[wyldwolf]

9. perhaps you can post a quote.

[Colobo]

10. Is she a Methodist, wyld?

[wyldwolf]

12. do you have a quote, katz?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

14. pretty much all christians believe that... I'm sure Methodists use conventional christian language

[wyldwolf]

19. that isn't the point. Has Hillary used that language in a speech? Katz seems to think...

..that believing something and stating it in public to curry political favor is the same thing.

[Colobo]

15. A quote of what? That's general knowledge, dude.

Is Hillary a Methodist, yes or no? If she is, then she believes in Jesus as Savior of mankind, and those who believe in Jesus as Savior of mankind believe in that stuff.

This is like finding a quote of Romney saying "I believe in what Joseph Smith said". We all know he's a Mormon and for instance believes in the teachings of Smith.

I know politics is all about playing gotcha, but c'mon.

She's Christian, right?

[wyldwolf]

17. come now, Katz. You know the OP is not about what one believes but about using religion to pander

Obama clearly does it.

Now, do you have a quote by Hillary similar to Obama's?

[Colobo]

20. I never claimed I had a quote of Hillary saying anything.

But most Christians, including Methodists, believe in sins being washed with the blood of Christ. Hillary and Obama, if they are both Christians as they claim to be, believe in that stuff.

[wyldwolf]

23. I never said you claimed it. But since the OP is about a quote from Obama, to remain relevant you..

... must have something comparable said from Hillary, not something you suspect she believes. Do you?

[Colobo]

25. Why would I have such thing?

In the end, my point is that Obama shouldn't get hell for believing the same thing most of our candidates believe as well. It's ridiculous.

[wyldwolf]

30. why would you reply to an OP about something Obama actually said with something...

... you suspect Hillary believes. It is completely irrelevant. Obama is using religion to curry political favor.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

21. The OP is about context

Many threads today had a cryptic "Obama: You must embrace Christ" without attribution, so I googled it and read the speech and thought it was interesting enough to post.

I really don't think this speech hurts or helps Obama... it is what it is. It's a good speech. If I were a Christian I would find it moving.

[wyldwolf]

26. right. The OP shows a quote from Obama. To remain relevant in the conversation, Katz would have...

... to quote something similar Hillary said, not something he suspects she must believe if she's a Methodist.

[PurityOfEssence]

54. What's that got to do with playing politics with gay rights to appease bigoted christians?

That was the gist of the post preceding your response; care to address it instead of deflecting?

By the way, that's part of the problem: being a "good christian" is a blank check for all sorts of bad behavior, and the atonement to the big boss doesn't heal the wounds to others that gets caused by such behavior, it only saves the ass of the atoner.

[PurityOfEssence]

55. Unintentional duplicate

An answer would be nice, though...

[RichGirl]

63. It's not about...

...who believes what. I don't care if they believe peanut butter will wash away their sins. I just don't want to hear it in a political speech.

[Bluebear]

5. And why he "trusts women" to pray before having an abortion.

We just had two terms of religion in the White House, please, no more.

[PurityOfEssence]

57. What's that got to do with appealing to anti-gay christian bigotry to sleaze a big bloc of votes?

That was the gist of the post preceding your response; care to address it instead of deflecting?

By the way, that's part of the problem: being a "good christian" is a blank check for all sorts of bad behavior, and the atonement to the big boss doesn't heal the wounds to others that gets caused by such behavior, it only saves the ass of the atoner.

[ORDagnabbit]

7. sorry I'm one of the "others" and do not have original sin.....

bye bye mister obama you just lost me....

[Kurovski]

8. Guys named Jesus are always welcome to step into the shower with me.

Hell, Obama too. Let's do some sin-washin'.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

11. I don't care for this stuff, myself, but it's a perfectly good speech.

I found it interesting in terms of where he at least thinks he's coming from with some of the religious statements, and a full presentation of a viewpoint is more valuable than selective snippets.

[1corona4u]

13. And yet...

this "church" is known to be a black separatist church. Only blacks are allowed to attend. Not very Christian-like if you ask me...

http://216.144.232.220/media/press/07/pr_03-06-07.php

Here'a another interesting article from that pastor, regarding Obama, and children;


http://216.144.232.220/media/press/07/pr_07-31-07.php

[jefferson_dem]

24. Bullshit.

All you do is link to two hateful commentaries from BOND, a rather scurrilous organization led by cretin Jesse Lee Peterson. "Interesting"? In whose world? Please check your sources before dragging sleaze in here.

[1corona4u]

32. LOL...

He's not the only one that thinks that...and it's a fact. People can go to the church website and see for themselves.

[dsc]

34. then maybe you need to link the church's website

instead of an anti Hispanic nut.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

35. very fine suggestion!!

[1corona4u]

38. I'll do better than that...

from the church website;


We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.
A congregation preaching SALVATION.
A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

Trinity United Church of Christ has been called by God to be a congregation that is not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that does not apologize for its African roots!

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

A black separatist church. No whites, Hispanics, Asians, etc. Again, not very Christian-like. Oh, but it's also Oprah's church too.

Just saying....

[dsc]

41. it says no such thing

Where does it say no white, no hispanics etc? Being proud of African roots is entirely different from saying no white allowed. I went to the MCC for awhile. It is an unapologeticly gay church but we let straight folk in.

[1corona4u]

42. Yes, it does, and they don't dispute the

fact that they don't allow anything but blacks. Call them if you like.

They specifically make no apology for being dedicated to blacks only;

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

[dsc]

44. and the MCC said much the same about gays

but we let straights in. Black worship doesn't mean all the people are black, it means a certain style of worship. My brother went to a very similar church to this for a time, he was probably the sole white person there, but he was welcome.

[CnAnPB]

45. If a Southern "White" church said the same thing except

said white where they say black and European where they say African it would NOT be kosher, now would it?

[JVS]

92. How about the Slovak Evangelical Lutheran Church?

They're white. They make no apology for their Slovak heritage.

Nor does the Greek Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, Byzantine Catholic Church (Ukrainian's and unabashedly so), Polish National Catholic Church, Episcopalian (i.e. Anglican), Serbian Orthodox Church, Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Church, Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church, or the Dutch Reformed Church.

[ellacott]

74. That is very inaccurate

and a little disappointing. The church does not discriminate and does not allow only blacks. If that were the case their would have been a much stronger outcry from his dissenters.

It's ironic that Obama has been dogged by the question, "Is he black enough". If your allegations were true and would basically put to rest that question.

It would have been so much better if some research would have been done regarding this issue before making inaccurate claims. This is one link I found after a short time on google:


Despite what one sometimes hears, Wright and his parishioners – an 8,000-member mingling of everyone from the disadvantaged to the middle class, and not a few shakers and movers in Chicago – are "keepin' the faith." To those in range of Chicago TV I'd recommend a watching of Trinity's Sunday services, and challenge you to find anything "cultic" or "sectarian" about them. More important, for Trinity, being "unashamedly black" does not mean being "anti-white." My wife and I on occasion attend, and, like all other non-blacks, are enthusiastically welcomed.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070402/26665_Keeping_the_Faith_at_Trinity_United_Church_of_Christ.htm

[knitter4democracy]

75. I worshipped at a similar church once, and it was fine.

I'm white, our whole youth group was white, and they were fine with us coming in and helping put on a Vacation Bible School. We were the only white people, and we were made more than welcome--they even fed us on our last day there when the church ladies realized we'd been hungry all week while working during the days at a men's homeless shelter. They had very little and yet gave out of that little to us. It was a humbling experience, let me tell ya.

I've worked side-by-side with people from Black churches in the ghetto, in work-and-witness teams, and I have worshipped next to them in joy of the Spirit. There's no exclusion--unless you want to start talking about the administration of some evangelical churches and how the higher-ups treat those Black congregations.

[ellacott]

76. Thank you for your first-hand account n/t

[jefferson_dem]

37. Thinks what ? In my book, if Jesse Lee Peterson is against it...i've gotta support it.

Prove me wrong. Make your case. Otherwise, we'll let your slander stand on its own (lack of) merits.

[1corona4u]

39. Slander is spoken word...

not written word...and since it's all true, libel is not applicable either.

[cuke]

36. I'm afraid to click on those links

No name, just an IP address. You're brave. I'll give you that

And wasn't the whole "Obama goes to a black seperatist church" a right wing smear? I can't remember. And is BOND that rightwing group that came up wt=ith the smear?

[1corona4u]

40. You can read above what I posted right from the church's website....n/t.

[dsc]

27. You might have looked a little more carefully at the website before you decided to post from it

http://216.144.232.220/media/press/press_releases.php

Stop Hispanic-On-Black Killings In Los Angeles!

NBJC Boycotting The Jesse Lee Peterson Radio Show

Liberal Black Leaders Accused Of Using ‘Jena 6’ Case To Spread Hate, Raise Money, Register Voters

Blacks Are Being Terrorized by Illegal Aliens From Newark to Los Angeles, Says Rev. Peterson

Blacks Are In A State of Emergency Due To Their Immorality, Says Controversial Talk Radio Host

Those are the first five press releases on their 2007 page I could go further but I really don't think I need to.

[jefferson_dem]

31. Jesse Lee Peterson is the worst of the worst.

Buddy of Sean Hannity and BillO...and critic of all things "colored" and progressive.

[dsc]

33. under the four paragraph rule

I had to stop where I did but it gets much worse as you go down the page. He clearly is a right wing whacko. Incidently, I am a Disciples of Christ member, or was until recently, and I am thus familiar with the UCC. It isn't, by any means, black seperatist.

[1corona4u]

43. LOL.....

yeah, ok...

[dsc]

46. I linked the whole page

you can look. It had one press release that was glad Bush vetoed the Hate Crime bill, one that was glad SCOTUS ruled against desegregated schools, and one saying Obama shouldn't be around children. All of them fell below the cutoff point.

[Kucinich4America]

61. Who pulls Peterson's strings anyway?

That man is obviously an idiot. And I don't mean in the Reagan or Chimpy sense either, Jesse Lee Peterson is literally not a mentally competent individual. I don't believe that he writes one word of the crap he spews out on FAUX. He isn't capable of doing so. Seriously, I've never seen a more profoundly stupid person on television, aside from characters on Howard Stern's show.

So who controls this puppet? Heritage Foundation? Murdoch?

[kurth]

18. I couldn't care less if they believed in Mary Poppins

as long as they do their job and don't shove their shit down other people's throats.

[1corona4u]

29. Or start wars....

because God told them to....such as Bush claimed....unfortunately their character is entwined in it , and I doubt it can be disconnected. I'm not into any organized religion, and I have my own views, but I really think people shouldn't choose a candidate based on their religious beliefs. And, let's face it, a lot of people do.

[Alexander]

22. Obama also said "We are a nation of nonbelievers".

See, I can take things out of context and post bullshit, too.

[durrrty libby]

28. I loathe preacher politicians

[0007]

49. Me too! In a way they are like herpes, they just keep coming back.

[glowing]

47. To me a Christ-like state of being is the same goal as becoming

enlightened. Man has tinkered with the word in all world's religions to fit a common thesis.... But in all world religions the common depiction is to live in peace with yourself, your neighbor, and with the earth.

As I studied science, I realize there is a lot of philosophy that comes into play. Yes, there are tangible numbers and studies, but there is this profound world that we barely know or understand, yet, we mess with all the time. I think science has lead me to embrace all of humanity better and it has given me a greater understanding in myself. It has helped define what is important and has given me this understanding that we are all connected through time with this universe. An understanding that there are different dimensions and possibly parallel universes happening on top of each other on different time strands. It is amazing to realize that my little bit of energized matter is part of this vast unknown. It is also amazing to realize there is still so much we don't understand.

I do know this though... I can be listening to gospel music, a meditation, or be at my friends Hindu prayers... they all bring me to the same place.. they bring me to peace of mind, love in my heart, and restoring energy. So, for me.. I do believe we are collectively part of this grand universe. We are connected by a flow of energy. And everything is alive... just in different states of being. Its absolutely fascinating.

I beleive, in my heart, that when Christ said to believe in him and have ever-lasting life was to mean that to believe in him is to follow his words and love one another and ourselves to create a Heaven on Earth. I don't believe that you can go to church on Sunday and say Please forgive me of my sins and then sin all week. The true understanding is to follow his steps. Through those steps, you will achieve the peace you wish to.

[jefferson_dem]

48. Wonderful post.

Thanks for sharing.

[glowing]

51. Thank you. There's this odd sense out there that if you are a scientist,

you are some paid pundit by the Repugs to think that there is something beyond what we can grasp in our tangible 3 dimensional world. There are way to many things that are unexplained. To tell you the truth the best professors I had were people who uderstood this. Normally, older scientists who weren't taught on by a standardized text books... the one's who sat out under the stars or staring into the vastness of the ocean wondering about everything and wanting to know more. They didn't enter their profession thinking how much money can I make working for Bayer like most of our scientists do now... Its not about that. Some get it. Sadly, most do not. They stick to the text book like it was their bible and don't realize that science should bring you to a closer understanding about humanity and that one question answered only leads to more unanswered. I hate seeing so many young people snowed. Science should never have a text book. Its like art. There are some general disciplines that guide you, but the rest is up to you to discover. And realizing sometimes you are wrong is the greatest gift to yourself in the discovery process... its more exciting than the expected.

Oh, and with music.. we do know that plants and children in the womb that receive bountiful amounts of classical music, are better soothed and are healthier, than those listening to rock n' roll or rap music.. The earth likes a symphony of sweet harmony.

[DemBones DemBones]

71. Last time I checked, there was no published research

that supported the idea that classical music makes plants (or children in the womb) healthier or "better soothed."

In a previous post, you indicated that plants feel pain but I've never been able to find published research on that topic, either.

Ever since the 70s, these ideas -- that plants feel pain and that plants are affected by music -- have been floated around and every now and then an article will appear in a newspaper citing "new scientific research" showing one or the other, or both. I've never been able to track down such research, not even with the help of an excellent reference librarian who searched all the databases available at the time. The newspapers seem to just print these factoids without checking them out.

The topic interests me because I taught biology and other science courses in public schools, supervised a lot of science fair projects, and also judged a lot of science fairs. Kids often chose topics such as "How Music Affects Plants" but there was no scientific literature to back up their results, in addition to the fact that their results were usually flawed to begin with because they used too small a sample of plants, didn't control conditions carefully, etc.

Science doesn't know everything but I don't know of any science that indicates that music affects plants, or that plants feel pain. Do you have a reference for those claims?

[scarletwoman]

79. Did you ever come across the book, _Secret Life of Plants_?

link

I haven't read it myself, but back when it first came out (published in 1973) it caused a fairly big stir, so I heard lots about it. (I was in my early 20s at the time, so this is part of my contemporaneous memories of the past 50+ years of history)

Anyway, I think alot of those ideas you're talking about have their roots in that book. I have no idea what the quality of the authors' research was, I just know that it was after that book appeared that the idea of plants responding to injury (NOT "feeling pain" -- I think that's an distorted characterization of what the research was positing), and responding to certain types of music, came to be part of the collective conversation.

And it's funny you should mention school science fair plant experiments. My own youngest son did a variation of that in 8th grade. He raised two sets of bean plants, one of which he daily took aside and spoke lovingly to, and the other of which he daily took aside and hollered angrily at.

Other than that, both sets of plants received the exact same amount of water and sunlight (in the same window). I supervised, and loving science and precision as I do, did my best to guide him in keeping the conditions as carefully controlled as possible.

Well, it DID turn out that the plants who were "loved" grew 1/2" - 1" taller than the plants who were hated on. He won second place in the science fair.

I'm not claiming anything, of course, just relating a personal anecdote. My main point was that if you're not familiar the Secret Life of Plants book, you might find that it answers some of the questions you've raised. Or not.

sw

[DemBones DemBones]

85. I know the book but it offers no proof,

and, as I said, there was never anything in the scientific literature to support "plant consciousness."

But I'm sure thousands of bean plants have been yelled at or cooed to in the course of science projects. :D

[thegreatcause2]

50. Machiavelli

endorsed religious role-playing as a tool of power achievement and maintenance.

[Basileus Basileon]

53. He's clearly talking about himself and his own experiences, and is not suggesting

others must follow his path.


That's a path that has been shared by millions upon millions of Americans - evangelicals, Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Muslims alike; some since birth, others at certain turning points in their lives. It is not something they set apart from the rest of their beliefs and values. In fact, it is often what drives their beliefs and their values.

And that is why that, if we truly hope to speak to people where they're at - to communicate our hopes and values in a way that's relevant to their own - then as progressives, we cannot abandon the field of religious discourse...

[goodgd_yall]

58. What is a "Call to Renewal" ?

Apparently, it must have some connection to spiritual beliefs of members of congress. I don't understand the context of the speech.

[Adelante]

69. Nothing about congress

You've heard of Sojourners? It's an anti-poverty, social justice through faith and personal responsibility organization. Sojourners and Call to Renewal were two groups initially, but are now one. He is speaking before a conference they held.

I am not religious myself, but I think the group does good work and I understand the speech in context of the conference.

[Didereaux]

59. k/r

[Cameron27]

62. It's more than I ever want to hear about his beliefs,

we're not voting for Preacher of the United States.

[rucky]

64. If what Obama is trying to accomplish...

his messages of faith and compassion actually get through to some of these people influenced for years by RW Value Voter nutjobs. If Obama can actually change some opinions about faith, about values, and about Dems, then I'm willing to let him talk without expressing my personal offense.

I know that if you want to persuade somebody, you have to be speaking their language. To me, it's a foreign language, but he seems to know what he's doing.

[bunnies]

65. Thanks for the context.

I dont even know how to respond. But thanks.

[asdjrocky]

66. Sorry everyone,

Sick and tired of Jesus.

[LeftyMom]

67. If he wants to play on 'the field of religious discourse' he can get a job as a preacher.

As a senator he's getting paid by all of us, and not to bang his bible.

[DemBones DemBones]

68. We pay our senators but we don't own them.

They have a right to free speech like anyone else. Free speech includes speaking freely about religion.

[Bluebear]

83. You said it. nt

[Adelante]

70. I hope everyone in the thread reads the full speech

He is addressing a group of Christian progressives. I'm not remotely religious, but even to me, this is a terrific speech on matters of social justice that can unite religious and secular progressives.


As Democrats, we shouldn't surrender the values issue over to the Republicans:

For some time now, there has been plenty of talk among pundits and pollsters that the political divide in this country has fallen sharply along religious lines. Indeed, the single biggest "gap" in party affiliation among white Americans today is not between men and women, or those who reside in so-called Red States and those who reside in Blue, but between those who attend church regularly and those who don't.

Conservative leaders have been all too happy to exploit this gap, consistently reminding evangelical Christians that Democrats disrespect their values and dislike their Church, while suggesting to the rest of the country that religious Americans care only about issues like abortion and gay marriage; school prayer and intelligent design.

Democrats, for the most part, have taken the bait. At best, we may try to avoid the conversation about religious values altogether, fearful of offending anyone and claiming that - regardless of our personal beliefs - constitutional principles tie our hands. At worst, there are some liberals who dismiss religion in the public square as inherently irrational or intolerant, insisting on a caricature of religious Americans that paints them as fanatical, or thinking that the very word "Christian" describes one's political opponents, not people of faith.

Now, such strategies of avoidance may work for progressives when our opponent is Alan Keyes. But over the long haul, I think we make a mistake when we fail to acknowledge the power of faith in people's lives -- in the lives of the American people -- and I think it's time that we join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy.

Common ground between the religious and the secular to defeat sectarianism:

So the question is, how do we build on these still-tentative partnerships between religious and secular people of good will? It's going to take more work, a lot more work than we've done so far. The tensions and the suspicions on each side of the religious divide will have to be squarely addressed. And each side will need to accept some ground rules for collaboration.

While I've already laid out some of the work that progressive leaders need to do, I want to talk a little bit about what conservative leaders need to do -- some truths they need to acknowledge.

For one, they need to understand the critical role that the separation of church and state has played in preserving not only our democracy, but the robustness of our religious practice. Folks tend to forget that during our founding, it wasn't the atheists or the civil libertarians who were the most effective champions of the First Amendment. It was the persecuted minorities, it was Baptists like John Leland who didn't want the established churches to impose their views on folks who were getting happy out in the fields and teaching the scripture to slaves. It was the forbearers of the evangelicals who were the most adamant about not mingling government with religious, because they did not want state-sponsored religion hindering their ability to practice their faith as they understood it.

Moreover, given the increasing diversity of America's population, the dangers of sectarianism have never been greater. Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers.

Read the whole thing here:

http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal/index.php

[DemBones DemBones]

72. What he says here is very good, especially:

"Democrats, for the most part, have taken the bait. At best, we may try to avoid the conversation about religious values altogether, fearful of offending anyone and claiming that - regardless of our personal beliefs - constitutional principles tie our hands. At worst, there are some liberals who dismiss religion in the public square as inherently irrational or intolerant, insisting on a caricature of religious Americans that paints them as fanatical, or thinking that the very word "Christian" describes one's political opponents, not people of faith."

(Sounds like he's been reading DU!)

"Now, such strategies of avoidance may work for progressives when our opponent is Alan Keyes. But over the long haul, I think we make a mistake when we fail to acknowledge the power of faith in people's lives -- in the lives of the American people -- and I think it's time that we join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy."


Religion is important to the majority of Americans, and those who vote are most likely to be those who go to church. The fact that the conservatives have won over so many religious people, when the conservatives do so much that is antithetical to any form of religion, shows how poorly Democrats/liberals/progressives are handling this debate.

Obama is correct. We need to wise up about the importance of religion and consider "how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy."

[knitter4democracy]

77. I am truly sorry for everyone here hurt by Christians.

I can understand why some here are so angry--they've been hurt in the name of a faith that says they shouldn't have been hurt in the first place. Growing up evangelical, I'm afraid that I most likely hurt people when I embraced that path so much that I refused to date in high school unless it was the right kind of Christian guy, and there weren't many of those.

Look, Obama is sharing here his personal story, his personal faith, and he's doing it to try to reach across the divide between liberal and conservative Christians. I'm personally fine with that. Heck, I'd be fine if he got up there and told of how Christians were hypocrites that hurt people, too. That's not his story, though, so that's why he didn't share that.

He felt a need to be washed and made new again. He's not the only one, and Christianity's not the only faith that requires that kind of conversion experience in some form. I don't think he's a bad Dem or a bad person for feeling that need and turning to faith to fill it.

[LWolf]

81. Obama speaks about his faith quite eloquently.

I have no problem with his faith. I do have two problems with what he is saying, though.

First of all, he is linking religion and politics. And he is campaigning on that link. As a staunch supporter of separation, that just doesn't work for me.

Secondly, he speaks eloquently about faith, and about religion, but he speaks as if the judeo-christian sects ARE religion, instead of just one of many faith systems.

He talks about how we are a religious people, but I don't hear anything about practitioners of Hinduism, Buddhism, Baha'i, Wicca, Shinto, or any of the various polytheistic faiths, for example.

Not that I expect him to run down a list of all world religions, of course.

I'd just like to see enough acknowledgment of and respect for the 1st amendment to be clear about valuing, and recognizing, all faiths equally.

All, or none.

[Chovexani]

86. Thank you!

There is more than one way to be religious in this country. His rhetoric isn't inclusive at all, and one of my biggest pet peeves is people both atheist and Christian treating the words religion and Christian as synonymous. There are wide swaths of people in this country who are religious and don't subscribe to the Abrahamic model of doing things. But since we're not a big enough voting bloc to these people as compared to teh Christians, they don't give a shit about us.

But I'm sure the Obama kiddies will just say the Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans and Pagans are a statistically insignificant minority, just like "the gays". :eyes:

[NMMNG]

88. But of course

But I'm sure the Obama kiddies will just say the Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans and Pagans are a statistically insignificant minority, just like "the gays".

Indeed. Atheists have already been declared statistically insignificant and disposable, at least as far as the election is concerned. Therefore I wouldn't be surprised if others were lumped in with them--particularly if the all-important evangelical votes are to be won.

[Chovexani]

93. We tolerate and accept everyone

Except those ones we don't like. :eyes:

[LWolf]

94. You're welcome.

I believe that's the whole point of the establishment clause, isn't it?

To make sure that no one faith system is given more power than another; that the minority is respected and protected under the law?

[Cameron27]

87. Very well said,

and I agree with all of it.

[frogmarch]

89. Oh, no

I used to think he was sensible. ;(

[JVS]

90. Oh Noes! " you are human and need an ally in this difficult journey."

Obama's choice of the word ally implies a non-monergistic theology scheme. I condemn this foul heresy!

[L0oniX]

91. n/t