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Hillary to Obama: The President can't vote "Present"... great response by Hillary

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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:33 PM
Original message
Hillary to Obama: The President can't vote "Present"... great response by Hillary
Edited on Mon Dec-03-07 06:43 PM by SaveElmer
This is the Hillary that is going to gut the Republicans next November!!!



Hillary Clinton's Remarks Today on Her Experience and Vision for a New America

Hillary Clinton delivered remarks in Clear Lake, IA today about her experience and vision for a new America. The following is an excerpt from her speech:


"A couple of my leading opponents, directly and through surrogates, have spent months criticizing me without having to answer any of their own questions. They've been attacking my character. As I have said repeatedly, I really would prefer to attack the problems of the country and let my opponents run their own campaigns.

"But I have to set the record straight. Because often what you don't know can be far more important than what you do know. The people of Iowa, I know, are good people who are trying very hard to make the right decision in this caucus. But people can only act on what they know. And I've heard a lot of talk about turning the page, but what about the action to back it up?

"When it comes to health care, one of my opponents believes it's acceptable to leave out 15 million Americans. That would be 100,000 here in Iowa. Leave them out from his health care plan because universal coverage might be too hard to achieve. I disagree. I don't think we should start by giving up on 15 million Americans. That's why my health care plan covers everyone

"When it comes to Social Security, one of my opponents uses the Republican talking points and has been open to raising the retirement age and cutting benefits. Now he says he is for lifting the payroll tax, which would be a trillion dollar tax increase. Again, I disagree. I don't think we should fix Social Security on the backs of our seniors and the middle class. I have always fought for Social Security, I have always stood up against privatization, and as President, I'll restore fiscal responsibility so we can keep Social Security as a sacred promise to our seniors.

"When it comes to Iran, I took a stand for aggressive diplomacy. One of my opponents made a different choice: He didn't show up for the vote. He didn't speak out during a presidential debate that night. And finally, he decided to play politics and claim that the vote he missed - a vote for diplomacy - was really a vote for war. Well if he really thought it was a rush to war, why did he rush to campaign and miss the vote?

"Now, there's been a lot of talk about yes or no answers to complex questions. But most people don't know that for legislators who don't want to take a stand, there's a third way to vote. Not yes, not no, but "present" - which is kind of like voting "maybe." Well, in the Illinois State Senate, on issue after issue, my opponent voted "present," instead of yes or no. Seven of those votes were on a woman's right to choose. Two of those votes were on measures to protect families from gun violence - one of which was a measure about firing guns on or near school grounds.

"A President can't vote "present." A President can't pick and choose which challenges he or she will face. My opponent's campaign said that voting "present" was a strategy to provide political cover. The Chicago Tribune said the present votes were the equivalent of taking a pass. Instead of looking for political cover or taking a pass, we need a President who will take a stand and stand there and do whatever is necessary for their country.

"Standing up for America's values and protecting our country and our people is the first job of the President. Bringing us together to end the war, fixing our economy, and taking on big challenges like immigration, health care, energy independence, climate change and so much else is what I will do.

"A President can't dodge the big fights, can't find political cover, or have words speak louder than actions. A lot of words we have these days aren't matched by action. And much of the actions I see, I simply disagree with. I have a very clear record on all of these issues. A record of 35 years of fighting for children and families, fighting for working people, fighting for our future - and as President, I will keep on fighting. But I'm running on more than just my record and my experience. I am also running on my vision and agenda of a new beginning for America.

"We need a new beginning on health care. We need to stand up to the drug companies and the insurance companies and provide health care for every single man, woman and child, at a price that people can afford and we're going to give them the help to do that."

...

“Now there is a funny argument in fashion these days – it goes something like this — those of us who have been fighting and winning these battles are not the right ones to push our country forward. The argument suggests that people like me, and Governor Richardson, and Senator Dodd and Senator Biden, are somehow disqualified from making the changes that American needs, even though we’ve been doing that for decades.”

“The idea goes that, if you want change, you need to get someone with less – not more – experience in actually making change happen. Well, I respectfully disagree. Experience and change are not opposing values. I think they go hand in hand – it takes strength and experience to bring about change.”

“I don’t think people want a lot of talk about change; I think they want someone with a real record, a doer not a talker. After eight years of incompetence, they don’t want false hopes, they want real results.”




http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/12/3/163255/921

on edit: Forgot the link
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. Those last few lines are great
“Now there is a funny argument in fashion these days – it goes something like this — those of us who have been fighting and winning these battles are not the right ones to push our country forward. The argument suggests that people like me, and Governor Richardson, and Senator Dodd and Senator Biden, are somehow disqualified from making the changes that American needs, even though we’ve been doing that for decades.”

“The idea goes that, if you want change, you need to get someone with less – not more – experience in actually making change happen. Well, I respectfully disagree. Experience and change are not opposing values. I think they go hand in hand – it takes strength and experience to bring about change.”

“I don’t think people want a lot of talk about change; I think they want someone with a real record, a doer not a talker. After eight years of incompetence, they don’t want false hopes, they want real results.”
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. It's the basic reason she's my girl
Real results
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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
147. Like the invasion of Iraq for instance.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
115. "After eight years of incompetence, they don’t want false hopes, they want real results.”
Clinton/Richardson!
I'm going to move Clinton up a spot in my rankings :thumbsup:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. Didn't'fighting Hillary' see a need to oppose Bush the last 7yrs the way she sees Obama
My gosh, if she gave any other Democrat that kind of back up when they were out there taking the hits for opposing Bush for all those years, some of us might BELIEVE her now.

Hillary's a Dry Powder Democrat who was saving it all up for her Dem primary opponents.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
29. Another Hillary Hater who can't defend Obama
All they have is hate, so they can't defend Obama. That would require some positivity
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #29
123. can't refute the post so attack the poster...
and you fling the word hate around? hypocrit... look up the word.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #29
127. Why should we pretend Hillary was FIGHTING Bush the last 7yrs just because you do?
Ain't gonna happen, sunshine. Many of us BOTHERED to pay attention as concerned and RESPONSIBLE citizens.
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LSparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. But a president can veto a bill and make Congress override it
It's not all "yes or no" "good or bad", Mrs. Clinton. That's Bushian "logic" and, in actuality, there ARE shades of gray in many issues.

I'll take Obama's "present" on this issue over her "YES" any day.
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journalist3072 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I just love Obama apologists. Obama's not even bothering to vote, is t he ultimate act of
political cowardice.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. I just love it when people call people they don't agree with apologists
Personally, I prefer sycophant. Kerry-krishna is good too.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. Then what do you call those who won't defend?
They only attack and deny. Talking about "grey areas" is not a defense. It's a denial of a problem.

Yes, there are more options than "Yes" and "No". There is also "Present" and Obama's record shows a large number of those on important issues. So, for once, let's hear a defense of those "Present" votes. Why did Obama vote present on abortion several times?
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. He's not my guy
I'll wait with you.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #31
117. See post #116...
and let's hear some defense of Hillary's health insurance and Social Security fixes. :crazy:
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #117
119. Another Obama supporter who can't defend Obama's
Your #116 contains no defense of Obama It is entirely about Hillary
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #119
121. Looks like you don't know what you are talking about...
I am NOT an Obama supporter. And, I see that you are another Hillary supporter who cannot defend her positions.

What's the matter, cuke? Are you, like Hillary, afraid of answering the questions?

Tick, tock, tick, tock............
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #121
124. You must have a sight problem
I responded to your #116
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #124
126. And, I responded to your non-response. nt
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. It's not just that he didn't vote...
He made no attempt in committee or on the floor to kill or alter it...said nothing in the debate that night...and in fact didn't utter so much as a peep until 9 hours after the vote when he finally decided it would help him politically!!!

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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
145. Ever missed a day of work?
Ok, thats what I thought.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. That would be a No vote by the President then.
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. Love it. Where is it from?
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journalist3072 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. Great minds think alike...I was just about to post! You know, Obama's been MIA in the Senate too
Not even bothering to vote on whether to hold a no-confidence vote on Alberto Gonzalez. Not even bothering to vote on Kyle-Lieberman.

Lowest voting record of the presidential candidates in the Senate.
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Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
51. Let me guess.
This is the "Bitch about Obama" Thread.

Well, when your candidate is in freefall, you knock her opponent for being a five-year-old and not mentioning that Harry Reid moved the date of the vote so he couldn't vote.

Bitch, bitch, bitch away babies!

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
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sundancekid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #51
113. BINGO - we have another winner - yea, THAT Harry Reid, whose son works for Hillbots
and Harry did that not-so-swift move AFTER he has assured Obama otherwise, so Obama went to NH ... nothing like people of their word
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zazzle Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
152. Obama voted YES to confirm Condi Rice!
but my biggest reason for not choosing Obama is his drug use.
Bush also used cocaine and there are many pressures in the White House...

Go Edwards!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Nap time...

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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. What a fine spokesman for your cause you are.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. My main cause is against Hillary
She gets worse by the day and you just justify, rationalize or ignore. It's sickening.
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ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. seriously
you're cracking me up. So are you saying 'bama DIDN'T vote "present" as State Legislator and DIDN'T miss nearly 80% of the votes this year in the Senate? Although both sets of facts are on State and Senate Records?

:eyes:

your anger is amusing, though.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. They can't defend Obama
All they have is denial and attacks
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ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. you think for supporters
of an undisputed "front runner" who's going to run away with the Election because everyone loves him so much, they'd have more. Oh well.
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Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #32
56. DEFEND HILLARY, CUKE!!!!
RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW!!!!!!

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. No problem - Hillary has a much lower # of present and absent "votes"
Now explain why Obama has so many?
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Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #59
78. What does voting present have to do with
becoming president?

Before you jump on me for not defending his non-votes, how many votes has your candidate missed or voted present?
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #78
122. Voting present is a way to duck an issue
Presidents can't do that. They either have to sign it or veto it (ie doing nothing (pocket veto) is a type of veto)

And my candidate has missed fewer votes than yours. Every other candidate has missed fewer votes than Obama

And of course, still no defense for Obama's missed votes
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #59
100. Defend this:
This was posted shortly after the last Iraq War Appropriation


"Bunker Boys" is a pejorative term used to describe the cowardly behavior of certain types, usually field officers, during Vietnam. These individuals would cower inside reinforced bunkers while the bullets were flying and the mortars were dropping. AFTER the action was over, they would make an appearance prancing around the battlefield pretending to be brave heroes, posing for the cameras, and recommending themselves for medals. The grunts in the holes knew them for what they were.


Dodd, Kerry, and Feingold STOOD UP and fought DURING the battle.

Clinton and Obama hid behind their SILENCE during the real fighting. Hillary actually RAN from the question at a press conference on Wednesday.
Clinton & Obama stood up ONLY AFTER the battle was over.
They will now parade around showing off their "NO votes like a badge of courage, and some of their campfollowers will applaud them. But the grunts in the holes know the truth.


Is THIS the type of leadership American needs?

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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #56
86. Good lord
Chill out. Don't blow a gasket.
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desi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
8. Our Girl is very well aware...
that she was referring to an empty suit. And we all know what an empty suit has done to our country in just seven short years.

K&R for no more empty suits...
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rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
158. Irony of this... seriously... IRONY!!!
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
11. Thank you Hillary. The people need to understand the differences in Obama & Clinton's records
Clinton may not always vote the way people on DU want her to, but at least she votes and takes a stand on tough issues.
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zazzle Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
153. Obama endorsed Lieberman - Bill Clinton campaigned with Lieberman! nuf said
John Edwards campaigned with Lamont!
Go Edwards!
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. Then she shouldn't not vote on bills like the bankruptcy bill either!
They both have this "vote parsing" problem... That's why I think the third alternative of Edwards is needed!
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. She was at Bill's side for a medical procedure for the bankrupcy vote. (nt)
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
35. The Clenis strikes again
Even when ill, it is all-powerful
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ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. real smooth
if it were Michelle or Elizabeth who found themselves on the operating table with their husbands nearby, you wouldn't dare be snide or dismissive about it. Sometimes -- in certain situations -- it's best to leave politics (and all the bitchy sniping) at the door and remember these are people with families we're talking about.

Had she left for the vote, I suspect you'd be accusing her of being cold and heartless and unloving? :eyes:

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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. My apologies
I left out the sarcasm smilie
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ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #48
68. tee-hee
I'm tired and cranky, so my apologies as well. Oh, DU, you're gonna be the end of me someday, I think. :evilgrin:
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. When Edwards was in the senate
He missed far more votes than either of them. And the votes he DID vote on, he usually voted in favor of corporate interests.
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zazzle Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
154. Stop LYING about John Edwards!
Edwards was from a red state - and his voting record is for The People.

Edwards courageously voted against war funding, Blackwater, and reconstruction funding in Oct. 2003.
Obama couldn't wait to get in the senate to begin voting with Repubs to fund the war he "opposed", vote against timetables, fund Blackwater, and whatever Bush wanted for Iraq.
Hillary did the same!

Only after they announced their candidacies for president - did Obama and Hillary vote against the war - and then they did it in secret!!


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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Lame in the extreme...
If Michelle had had Heart surgery on the day of the Kyl Lieberman vote we would have let that slide...

In any case Hillary made a stronmg floor ststement in opposition to the Bankruptcy Bill...


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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
54. Her husband was in the hospital. So does the doctor's note give her a pass?
:eyes:
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
89. Hmmmm?
Let us review. Her husband was having major surgery at the time.

Care to try again?
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. excellent
Hillary is going back on the right course now, those guys are in big trouble, don't mess with Hillary! She rocks, quite simply.
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Prayingforrain48 Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. Although I'm an Edwards/Kucinich supporter...
I must say that that was actually a pretty good speech from her. I wonder, do you other DUers perceive Hillary or Bill to be more progressive/liberal?
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
38. My own perception
Hillary is more progressive than Bill.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #38
76. I agree with that. nt
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #38
104. I think so too.
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rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
160. No Vision.. how could that be progressive?
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ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
22. oh ... SNAP!
THAT'S gonna leave a mark, 'bama.

See? Missing all those votes to campaign, shake hands, buy politicians with your PAC $$$ and raise more for the kitty SEEMED like a good idea -- certainly an easy one -- at the time. But when you start playing in the Big Leagues, little things like not earning your paycheck by missing nearly 80% of the votes or voting "Present" like a political coward with his finger in the wind occasionally do come back to bite you on the fanny.

Oh well. Looks like that halo has a bit of tarnish now. Bound to happen eventually.
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Nailzberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
23. The "present" argument failed miserably in 2004.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/07/obama-abortion-.html
ABC News
When Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., voted "present," rather than "yes" or "no" on a handful of controversial abortion votes in the Illinois state senate, he did so with the explicit support of the president and CEO of Illinois Planned Parenthood Council.

"We at Planned Parenthood view those as leadership votes," Pam Sutherland, the president and CEO of the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council, told ABC News. "We worked with him specifically on his strategy. The Republicans were in control of the Illinois Senate at the time. They loved to hold votes on 'partial birth' and 'born alive'. They put these bills out all the time . . . because they wanted to pigeonhole Democrats."



IL Planned Parenthood President Said Anyone Who Thinks A Present Vote Is A “Duck” Doesn’t Understand How the Process Works.
Chicago Daily Herald, 3/10/04
“There is a presumption, if one is not familiar with the mechanics of the General Assembly, that a present vote is a “duck.” Pam Sutherland, the CEO and President of Illinois Planned Parenthood said of Hull argument: “I think it’s not well-based…I think it’s somebody who doesn’t understand how the legislative process works.”

Director of the IL Council Against Handgun Violence Said Criticizing Present Votes Indicates “You Don’t Have A Great Understanding Of The Process.”
Chicago Tribune, Zorn, 3/9/04
“‘Criticizing Obama on the basis of ‘present’ votes indicates you don’t have a great understanding of the process,’ said Thom Mannard, director of the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence.”




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ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. spin it how you like
it still looks bad if you're in an Iowa audience and learning someone doesn't show up to do his job or doesn't appear to take it seriously enough for a "yes" or "no" vote.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. Note the headline: Obama Abortion Dodges Blessed by Planned Parenthood
Edited on Mon Dec-03-07 07:11 PM by BeyondGeography
If the very groups that Hillary says are harmed by Obama's "present" votes support them, that's not spin, and its certainly not dereliction of duty.

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ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. okay
Edited on Mon Dec-03-07 07:14 PM by ccpup
that's not what other politicians are on record as saying, but, in any case, I wish I could live in that nice bubble of yours. Must be nice.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. That said, it's a slightly better line of attack than the ambition/kindergarten essay
Anyway, the "present" strategy was desinged to frustrate Republicans, a goal I'm sure you support. Here's what the head of Illinois Planned Parenthood had to say about it from the same article:

==..."The Republicans were in control of the Illinois Senate at the time. They loved to hold votes on 'partial birth' and 'born alive'. They put these bills out all the time . . . because they wanted to pigeonhole Democrats."

Speaking to ABC News as Obama was preparing to join Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., and the wife of Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C., in addressing Planned Parenthood’s national conference in Washington, D.C., Sutherland said Obama approached her in the late 1990s and worked with her and others in crafting the strategy of voting "present." She remembers meeting with Obama outside of the Illinois Senate chambers on the Democratic side of the aisle. She and Obama finished their conversation in his office.

"He came to me and said: 'My members are being attacked. We need to figure out a way to protect members and to protect women,'" said Sutherland in recounting her conversation with Obama. "A 'present' vote was hard to pigeonhole which is exactly what Obama wanted."

"What it did," she continued, "was give cover to moderate Democrats who wanted to vote with us but were afraid to do so" because of how their votes would be used against them electorally. "A 'present' vote would protect them. Your senator voted 'present.' Most of the electorate is not going to know what that means."==

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/07/obama-abortion-.html
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:25 PM
Original message
Better than this?
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
58. Or this?
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ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #47
72. so how do these decisions
to "protect" the Democrats from having their votes used against them electorally square with Obama's Politics of Hope and Change?

To listen to him slam Hillary for votes she chose to make (instead of hiding under the covers on the campaign trail like some did), you'd have a hard time believing he's sensitive to the difficulty one can have with a tough vote. But there he was, working out a way to offer cover to fellow politicians with a tough vote in front of them.

Ah, that 'bama. Full of surprises, but still somehow manages to keep his rosy smile and glowing halo.

:sarcasm:

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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Other members remember no such arrangement...and in any case...
It wasn't a parliamentary strategy but done for political cover...allegedly to allow Democrats in conservative districts to shield themselves from political reprisal...of which Obama was not one...no political harm would have come to him had he voted...he took the chance to dodge it knowing it might harm him when he ran for higher office...

If Hillary dodged a vote for political expediency she would be roasted alive...

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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #44
53. He was playing the Republicans!
Jeeze.

These were bogus votes designed to make Democrats look like careless baby killers. He made sure the bills got as few votes as possible. Planned Parenthood approved. If you think Sutherland is bullshitting, sick the HillHub on her.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. He ducked 10 votes in this manner...
For political cover...if Hillary had done this you know damn well what the reaction would be here...

And it is a pattern Obama is repeating as a U.S. Senator
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
92. So it doesn't matter if the "present" votes were the right thing to do
as long as voters cvan be made to think it was the wrong thing to do? Lying about someone's record to get votes isn't a very good sign.
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Nailzberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
93. I'm not spinning anything. I don't do that anymore.
Edited on Mon Dec-03-07 08:56 PM by Nailzberg
I never really debate people on this forum about their candidates. I'm not out to change anyone's mind here, most DUer's have their horse picked by now. I'm just talking tactics. I admire tactics, regardless of who's team made the play, I'm a fan of the sport.

Anyway, having worked in Springfield, I am familiar with the politics of the state.

Here's why I pointed out that tactic failed before. Present votes in the Illinois GA are a common vote. The majority party floods the floor with meaningless bills to force the minority into a vote that will cost them public opinion. For instance, someone pointed out HB3793 from the 90th session. That bill was an unfunded mandate that every public school "teach pupils honesty, kindness, justice, respect for others, and moral courage...for the purpose of lessening crime and raising the standards of good citizenship." Pretty ridiculous. BUt if you vote against it, you open yourself to the attacks of "Sen. X is soft on crime", "Sen. X doesn't believe in kindness and honesty."

Yeah, that's how it works everywhere, distortion and omission are par for the course in campaigns. I know. But why I believe this is a risky move by Sen. Clinton is this. In the IL GA, members frequently coordinate these present votes with the expressed approval of the public interests groups and lobbies. What Sen. Clinton has done is open the door for Planned Parenthood, labor, educators, and any other advocacy group that has coordinated with present votes, to publicly defend Obama.

Now, maybe that won't happen. But it's a pretty risky move given its history.
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ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. more info for you:
Chicago Tribune: Sen. Obama’s explanation for 'present' votes is questionable; 'few of the other Democrats who voted ‘present’ on abortion bills recall such a strategy' as Sen. Obama did. Sen. Obama "said he worked out an arrangement with abortion-rights advocates to encourage Democrats to vote ‘present’ on some bills if they feared a ‘no’ would look insensitive and endanger their re-election. But few of the other Democrats who voted ‘present’ on abortion bills recall such a strategy. And, like Obama, they weren't politically vulnerable."
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
41. Yes.
But now he's running for President of The United States of America.

It's a different ballgame.
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
27. Decades of Experience = Dodd, Biden, Richardson, Kucinich
Unbelievable that she continues to suggest that being married to a former governor & president somehow equals to running/winning elections and serving as an elected candidate. Crossing the line into complete bullshit is unbecoming behavior after what we've been through the last 7 years.
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ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. yeah
she spent all her time just married to Bill.

"Clinton co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families, a state-level alliance with the Children's Defense Fund, in 1977. In late 1977, President Jimmy Carter (for whom she had done 1976 campaign coordination work in Indiana) appointed her to the board of directors of the Legal Services Corporation, and she served in that capacity from 1978 through the end of 1981. For much of that time she served as the chair of that board, the first woman to do so. During her time as chair, funding for the Corporation was expanded from $90 million to $300 million, and she successfully battled against President Ronald Reagan's initial attempts to reduce the funding and change the nature of the organization.

Following the November 1978 election of her husband as Governor of Arkansas, Clinton became First Lady of Arkansas in January 1979, her title for a total of twelve years. Bill appointed her chair of the Rural Health Advisory Committee the same year, where she successfully obtained federal funds to expand medical facilities in Arkansas' poorest areas without affecting doctors' fees.

Hillary Clinton chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee from 1982 to 1992, where she sought to bring about reform in the state's court-sanctioned public education system. One of the most important initiatives of the entire Clinton governorship, she fought a prolonged but ultimately successful battle against the Arkansas Education Association to put mandatory teacher testing as well as state standards for curriculum and classroom size in place. She introduced Arkansas' Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth in 1985, a program that helps parents work with their children in preschool preparedness and literacy.

And a bit of stuff from the White House years:

Along with Senator Ted Kennedy, she was the major force behind the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, a federal effort that provided state support for children whose parents were unable to provide them with health coverage. She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses and encouraged older women to seek a mammogram to detect breast cancer, with coverage provided by Medicare. She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.

The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome. Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice. In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady."

sexist and misinformed much?
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #33
50. Well Then
there's no need to run for office as long as your spouse did.

Look, I know what she did when she was first lady of Ark and US, but it's a damn stretch to include herself in the same bunch of people that actually ran, won and were elected lawmakers in office for DECADES. She's done that, but she hasn't reached the decade part, has she?

I bet Senators Dodd, Biden, Congressman, Aambassador, Secretary of Energy & Governor Richardson, Mayor, Congressman Kucinich are even having a chuckle over that claim by Hillary.

And why is it necessary to include your little snippet personal attack at me personally? Sexist, hardly, I'm a feminist from way back when. Misinformed, not that either.

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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #33
61. Excellent Post #33. Kicked and Recommended.
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. Yeah, Wikipedia & Offical Bio Plus Insults
Edited on Mon Dec-03-07 08:06 PM by otohara
posts should be recommended.
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ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. if you can disprove the facts
go for it. She certainly has done more for children and education than some on the campaign trail.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #73
80. It's the usual "attack the source" response they use...
Nothin new there...
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #73
91. Post Says I'm Sexist & Misinformed
both of which aren't true. So there!

Who am I to argue with the official bio of Hillary Clinton. But to put herself in the same club as Biden, Dodd, & Richardson. First Lady does not equate to being elected lawmakers who have served for DECADES. I think these men probably would disagree.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
134. I thought the exact same thing.
"Decades of experience" is quite a stretch. To imply she has the experience of Biden or Dodd, especially, is delusional. Or, in your words "utter and complete bullshit".

Richardson and Kucinich, as well, but HRC is a senator, and that statement was an insult to Biden and Dodd. She's my senator, and I don't recall her doing anything at all that impressed me - and a lot of things that didn't. If she wasn't married to Bill Clinton she would never have been the "frontrunner", and I'd prefer she'd missed a few votes, in particular Kyl-Lieberman, than vote the way she did.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
28. Good for her.
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
34. Excellent speech
K&R
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
43. Actually Hillary, a President doenst have a vote at all
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ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. but a President DOES
have a responsibility to show up and do the damn job.

Voting "present" on important issues and then missing 80% of the votes as US Senator just this past year doesn't look good no matter how you guys want to spin it.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Well actually they do..sign or veto...nt
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
49. Wow. So Hillary just figured out how to distort a Senator's voting record...
The votes where Obama voted "present" also involved other legislators adding poison pills to the legislation. For all you Hillary supporters that could never get the grades to make it to college, that means legislation was added in a bill to make it unvoteable on principle.

If Hillary wants to play that little game, there is a treasure trove of votes where she "didn't vote for the troops", "didn't want a woman to have the right to choose", "didn't want kids to have food on the table"... She should know better than to stoop that low.

What she DID vote for, like the war in Iraq and the impending attack on Iran, are enough to sink her.

The power that she wants so desperately is slipping from her muddy, bloody hands.

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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. A version not corroborated by other legislators...
And in any case, Obama was not in political danger from his vote. The so called arrangment was designed to give political cover to democrats in conservative districts... of which Obama was not one...

He ducked 10 votes by voting "Present"

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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. So you're admitting it's much ado about nothing then...
Do you have links to the 10 votes you are referring to? I'd like to see them.

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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. Don't know where you got that from...
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #49
64. Voters will see through Clinton's distortions; She's playing negative, and Obama is playing positive
Edited on Mon Dec-03-07 07:47 PM by calteacherguy
People are looking for positive change.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Calteaherguy one short month ago...


“Pathetic response from camp Obama, given that he didn't even bother to vote.
"Hillary supporters will also note that Obama co-sponsored a bill designating the Iran Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization, though the Obama campaign has said that their objection to Kyl wasn't to that facet of it but to the fact that it blamed Iran for problems in Iraq."

“Sounds to me like the Obama campaign is looking for any sort of excuse they can muster to throw mud at Clinton, frankly. “



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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. Clark has disappointed me greatly. nt
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #71
75. That last line is YOUR comment...nt
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #75
81. I was defending Clark's choice, but I didn't believe any of it.
Edited on Mon Dec-03-07 08:06 PM by calteacherguy
Clark flip-flopped on Kyl-Lieberman. That really hurts. He lost some of his integrity.

I'm not going to lose mine.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. So you bashed Obama to defend Clark...
You really expect that to fly?
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. And hoping he would be VP.
Edited on Mon Dec-03-07 08:08 PM by calteacherguy
I had my priorities all screwed up.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Then how do we know your comments on this thread are genuine?...nt
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #85
90. How do we know yours are? nt
Edited on Mon Dec-03-07 08:10 PM by calteacherguy
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #81
133. "He lost some of his integrity. I'm not going to lose mine."
:rofl:
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
62. Go Hillary
:woohoo: :woohoo:
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
63. She's wrong about the Health Care Plan.
Edited on Mon Dec-03-07 07:45 PM by calteacherguy
Obama doens't "leave out" 15 million; he provides an ability for EVERYONE to have health insurance. While Obama's plan is realistic, Clinton has no clue how she will enforce politically unpopular forced mandates.

She's making the same kinds of mistakes she made before on Health Care. She seems to have an inablity to learn from her experiences of failure.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Wrong...
The key to lowering premiums is to get everyone in the system. Offset the healthy and wealthy with those not able to maintain their health for lack of coverage. Insurance works by making a bet that people will be healthy enough and paying premiums to offset the cost of health care. By including everyone in the system you increase those odds thus lowering premiums...

In addition Hillary's plan provides a hard cap on what prmiums can be as a percentage of income...

You notice Edwards has stayed out of this debate because his plan does the same thing...

Obama doesn't enforce full coverage because he believes it will be more politically expedient not to take that position...not because he believes it is the better way to go...
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #65
74. How is she going to enforce the mandates? What's her decision on that one? nt
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NewHampster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
69. You go girl
Woo Hoo Hillary finally lays it all out.
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
70. Brilliant on-point speech.
Edited on Mon Dec-03-07 08:02 PM by durrrty libby
"Seven of those votes were on a woman's right to choose.":wow:

No fucking excuse for that. I hope she gets that fact out to the masses, especially women
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #70
82. Do you know the details of the legislation? Ever hear of a poison pill? nt
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #82
114. It is crystal clear that Obama has along history of avoiding votes
and taking a stand, only after the fact.

This type of manipulative behavior is quite common in addicts and so-called ex addicts


It's a shame his enablers don't hold him accountable


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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
77. Oh Hell Yeah! Effin' Great!
:kick:
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
79. Excellent! I can see Obama's head spinning..
not knowing where to start, answering these specific charges!

best speech yet!

You Go Girl!

:woohoo:
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Hope And Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
87. I like Obama`s response to Hillary`s recent attacks
"Here's what I know,” Obama said. “Over the last couple of days, she has cited the supposed memories of my kindergarten teacher about my presidential aspirations. That is the level of silliness we've been hearing out of Senator Clinton and her campaign. I don't think that's what the people of Iowa are looking for right now."

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/12/03/494595.aspx
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #87
95. I think Obama
--showed a lack of a sense of humor.

as does anyone who thinks the Kindergarten essay was anything more than a glib joke.
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Hope And Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #95
111. We are not laughing...
Edited on Tue Dec-04-07 04:49 AM by Hope And Change
...with Hllary WE ARE LAUGHING AT HILLARY!

Obama 08!
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Krashkopf Donating Member (965 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #87
148. Obama's Response to Hillary's mean-spirited "now the fun begins" comment
Obama responded: "This presidential campaign isn't about attacking people for fun, it's about solving people's problems.... Washington insiders might think throwing mud is fun, but the American people are looking for leadership that can unite this country around a common purpose."

Ouch! I'm not the hughest Obama fan (I am an Edwards supporter) but ya gotta give Obama credit for hitting back where it hurts!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
88. Hillary voted "Yes" in support of Bush's war in Iraq, and Bush's war plans on Iran.
I would rather have someone vote present, than someone that always says 'Yes' to the warmongers among the neocons, the neolibs, and the Israel Lobby.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
94. New Yorkers, what do you think? She appears from Kentucky with
"no representation for many years, via McConnell, Bunning, Northrup (now thankfully dispatched) and most recently Guv Fletcher" that Senator Clinton has been a superior senator. She exposed the shoddy claims that Bush made that Ground Zero was safe. She has apparently done good stuff for parts of NY that are GOPer country. Is this true? Please, New York, can we hear from you?
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. Hillary has been a marvelous Senator for NY
I'm as happy with her as I was with Moynihan --and that's saying a lot.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #96
108. The more reason why Hillary should remain as a US Senator for NY
You guys keep her forever!
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-03-07 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #94
97. She has been diligent and mostly responsive
She also broke a lot of hearts with IWR in NYC, which is about 90-10 antiwar. She's a good Democrat on the bread-and-butter issues, a total adventure on foreign policy.
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. Thank you...
sort of...
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #98
109. LOL
I did my best.
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
99. You hit it out of the park, Hillary...
Great speech; right on point.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
101. Teacher's pet likes to show up for votes. nah nah nah
(joke)
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avrdream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
102. Finally!
I haven't been waiting for nastiness but I have been waiting for distinctions to be drawn between Senator Clinton and Senator Obama.

Strong but true words.

(And, no, I haven't read the rest of the thread - I just about can't stand to read some of the arguments that go on around here these days. It isn't as if we are going to seriously change each others' minds. Just sayin'.)
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Tactical Progressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
103. So Obama's a coward, in addition to being a liar and a slimer
Every day that goes by shows Obama to be the exact opposite of his manufactured image.

He's an incredible liar, not any kind of 'new politics' practitioner.

He's a slimer, like no one I've ever seen on the Democratic side. But never against Republicans. Odd.

He's a hypocrite, whose first instinct is to accuse others of his failings.

Now we find out he is a triangulating hack going all the way back even to his time in the Illinois State Senate.


He is, in short, the exact opposite of the phony image he has concocted for the media.
No experience, no integrity, no honor. That is Barack Obama's 'new politics'.
New for Democrats maybe.


All Hillary has to do is point out exactly what Obama does versus what he says, like she has done here.

You go girl! Tell it like it is.


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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #103
107. Don't believe what she says. Read my post below. nt
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Tactical Progressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #107
110. It doesn't show Obama for any great courage or accomplishment
Which isn't your fault - I went to the links thinking your post just didn't relay the refutation of Obama's apparent lack of political courage, and there wasn't any refutation there either. Just Obama supporters saying we don't understand the 'process' in the Illinois State Senate. What 'process' is it that you sidestep principled votes? Is this something unique to the Illinois State Senate?

In fact, it bolstered just the opposite case for Obama's lack of principled voting. The article pointed out that Obama was in a politically 'safe' district in Illinois. Which means he had the leeway to make principled votes. But he didn't. He voted 'Present' on divisive votes, presumably for his own political image. Leaving the hard votes to his compatriots who were probably in less safe seats.

Hey, maybe it's true that I don't understand the special circumstances of the Illinois State Senate, if that's really the case, but Obama has done the same thing in his very short tenure in the US Senate: skipping tough votes altogether and apparently voting 'present' there as well.

And one other thing I noticed. Obama had been in the Illinois State Senate for how long, 11 years? It doesn't sound like he had the 'leadership' skills he promotes all the time, to rise to a position of any kind of leadership position in that body. A decade in a state legislative body developing no leadership somehow gives him 'leadership' credentials for the Presidency of the United States? I'd like to see alot more about this. Anybody can say they're a leader.

And lastly, that article, using supporters to promote what he did in the Illinois State Senate, didn't sound like he did that much even from a non-leadership position. Sounds like he didn't do much but vote the right way on a couple of successful bills. It sounded like they came up with one or two co-sponsorships is all. Maybe that wasn't everything, but my overall impression is little leadership or accomplishment, even from a decade in a safe seat.
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Dawgs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #103
118. You know, you really should get informed before posting.
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
105. Corrrection: : Lame response by Hillary.
Background information on Barack Obama's record of fighting for Democratic principles and Hillary Clinton's "courage" on such issues as Iraq, Iran, NAFTA and ethanol:

IL Planned Parenthood President Said Anyone Who Thinks A Present Vote Is A "Duck" Doesn't Understand How the Process Works. "There is a presumption, if one is not familiar with the mechanics of the General Assembly, that a present vote is a 'duck.' Pam Sutherland, the CEO and President of Illinois Planned Parenthood said of Hull argument: 'I think it's not well-based...I think it's somebody who doesn't understand how the legislative process works."

Director of the IL Council Against Handgun Violence Said Criticizing Present Votes Indicates "You Don't Have A Great Understanding Of The Process." "Criticizing Obama on the basis of 'present' votes indicates you don't have a great understanding of the process," said Thom Mannard, director of the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence.

The "Dirt" On Attacks on Obama's Present Votes Is "All Over The Hands of Those Pointing The Finger." "This column has the dirt on the issue of state Sen. Barack Obama's 'present' votes on tough issues in the Illinois Legislature--votes that at least two of his opponents in the March 16 Democratic U.S. Senate primary say mark him as a coward... There's dirt here all right. It's all over the hands of those pointing the finger."

Obama Was Praised for Standing Up on Tough Issues In State Legislature – Because His Senate Seat Was Not Vulnerable, He Used His Position To Help More Vulnerable Senators Do The Right Thing. Zorn wrote, "Obama, however, was in a safe district and never faced a serious challenge for his legislative seat. He had no need to shy from hard-line stands on gun control and abortion rights. He actually took such

http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/12/03/fact_check_clintons_attack_on.php

Robert Reich, Secretary of Labor for Bill Clinton
Posted December 3, 2007
Why is Hillary Stooping so Low?

I'm becoming increasingly concerned about the stridency and inaccuracy of charges in Iowa -- especially coming from my old friend. While I'm as hard-boiled as they come about what's said in campaigns, I just don't think Dems should stoop to this. First, HRC attacked O's plan for keep Social Security solvent. Social Security doesn't need a whole lot to keep it going -- it's in far better shape than Medicare -- but everyone who's looked at it agrees it will need bolstering (I was a trustee of the Social Security Trust Fund 10 years ago, and I can vouch for this). Obama wants to do it by lifting the cap on the percent of income subject to Social Security payroll taxes, which strikes me as sensible. That cap is now close to $98,000 (it's indexed), and the result is highly regressive. (Bill Gates satisfies his yearly Social Security obligations a few minutes past midnight on January 1 every year.) The cap doesn't have to be lifted all that much to keep Social Security solvent -- maybe to $115,00. That's a progressive solution to the problem. HRC wants to refer Social Security to a commission. That's avoiding the issue, and it's irresponsible: a commission will likely call either for raising the retirement age (that's what Greenspan's Social Security commission came up with in the 1980s) or increasing the payroll tax on all Americans. So when HRC charges that Obama's plan would "raise taxes" and her plan wouldn't, she's simply not telling the truth.

Email
Print
Comment
I'm equally concerned about her attack on his health care plan. She says his would insure fewer people than hers. I've compared the two plans in detail. Both of them are big advances over what we have now. But in my view Obama's would insure more people, not fewer, than HRC's. That's because Obama's puts more money up front and contains sufficient subsidies to insure everyone who's likely to need help -- including all children and young adults up to 25 years old. Hers requires that everyone insure themselves. Yet we know from experience with mandated auto insurance -- and we're learning from what's happening in Massachusetts where health insurance is now being mandated -- that mandates still leave out a lot of people at the lower end who can't afford to insure themselves even when they're required to do so. HRC doesn't indicate how she'd enforce her mandate, and I can't find enough money in HRC's plan to help all those who won't be able to afford to buy it. I'm also impressed by the up-front investments in information technology in O's plan, and the reinsurance mechanism for coping with the costs of catastrophic illness. HRC is far less specific on both counts. In short: They're both advances, but O's is the better of the two. HRC has no grounds for alleging that O's would leave out 15 million people.

Yesterday, HRC suggested O lacks courage. "There's a big difference between our courage and our convictions, what we believe and what we're willing to fight for," she told reporters in Iowa, saying Iowa voters will have a choice "between someone who talks the talk, and somebody who's walked the walk." Then asked whether she intended to raise questions about O's character, she said: "It's beginning to look a lot like that."

I just don't get it. If there's anyone in the race whose history shows unique courage and character, it's Barack Obama. HRC's campaign, by contrast, is singularly lacking in conviction about anything. Her pollster, Mark Penn, has advised her to take no bold positions and continuously seek the political center, which is exactly what she's been doing.

All is fair in love, war, and politics. But this series of slurs doesn't serve HRC well. It will turn off voters in Iowa, as in the rest of the country. If she's worried her polls are dropping, this is not the way to build them back up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/why-is-hrc-stooping-so-lo_b_75191.html

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Think82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
106. I just hope these two tear each other down a bit so Biden can win.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
112. K&R!
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
116. This part is the biggest bunch of garbage...
"When it comes to health care, one of my opponents believes it's acceptable to leave out 15 million Americans. That would be 100,000 here in Iowa. Leave them out from his health care plan because universal coverage might be too hard to achieve. I disagree. I don't think we should start by giving up on 15 million Americans. That's why my health care plan covers everyone

"When it comes to Social Security, one of my opponents uses the Republican talking points and has been open to raising the retirement age and cutting benefits. Now he says he is for lifting the payroll tax, which would be a trillion dollar tax increase. Again, I disagree. I don't think we should fix Social Security on the backs of our seniors and the middle class. I have always fought for Social Security, I have always stood up against privatization, and as President, I'll restore fiscal responsibility so we can keep Social Security as a sacred promise to our seniors.
-------------------------

(And, cuke, before you start in on "attacking" instead of "defending," take a minute to READ what she said...it's an attack, and not a defense of her position. And, maybe you can try defending the position for her.)

Hillary says NOTHING about her health INSURANCE (not health CARE) proposal. What she does is MANDATE that the elderly and middle class bear the brunt of having to purchase health INSURANCE that does NOT equal health care. I agree that Obama's health insurance proposal isn't very good...but, Hillary's is worse. We need single-payer. Period.

As far as her social security ATTACK, her "plan" is "fiscal responsibility." Who is she kidding? Secondly, Social Security taxes are only paid on the first $96,000.00 of income. How is lifting the cap where Social Security is paid on all earnings fixing Social Security on the "backs of our seniors and middle-class?" That's just about as disingenuous as one can get.

In this speech, Clinton does attacking of her own, and STILL offers NO SOLUTIONS. Yep, she set the record "straight" alright. She is showing her true colors. And, they aren't pretty colors, either.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #116
120. Another Obama supporter who can't defend Obama's record
Your post contains no defense of Obama. It only attacks Clinton. Very predictable

"Hillary says NOTHING about her health INSURANCE (not health CARE) proposal. What she does is MANDATE that the elderly and middle class bear the brunt of having to purchase health INSURANCE that does NOT equal health care. I agree that Obama's health insurance proposal isn't very good...but, Hillary's is worse. We need single-payer. Period."

You must have a memory problem of some sort because Hillary has had a UNIVERSAL health care plan for several months now. And Obama's plan includes a mandate also so I don't see how you can have a problem with mandates and still how you can say Obama's plan is any better.

As far as SS goes, she is absolutely right, and Obama is repeating the right wing myth that there is a looming SS crisis. He even repeats the repuke line that "Kids today don't expect to receive SS when they grow old". Most economists agree with Hillary; There is no SS crisis and fiscal responsibility IS the way to solve any shortfalls in SS funding

And what Clinton is doing here is called a "counter-attack"
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #120
125. I didn't attack HIllary. I attacked her positions. And, I criticized
Obama's position, saying it wasn't very good, either...just better than Clinton's. You really seem to have a very hard time with your comprehension skills.

Secondly, I am not an Obama supporter. Therefore, you can quit playing your incessant childish claims about "another Obama supporter who can only attack, not defend." That's a load of crap, and you know it.

You still did not defend Hillary's supposed "universal health care" plan...which is not CARE. Her plan is mandated universal health INSURANCE (which does not equal health CARE.)

And, you didn't answer the question about Social Security. How is lifting the payroll tax CAP a tax increase on the MIDDLE CLASS?

You are just another Hillary supporter who tries to "defend" Hillary by attacking those who criticize her positions as "Hillary haters." It's disingenuous for you to do that. And, you know it.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #120
130. What's wrong?
Have you decided that you can't defend these positions?
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #116
128. Good post...and you'll get the usual childish name-calling from you know who
Facts with them...not so much...

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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #128
129. You see how the usual suspect conceded the point
without a fight. I still haven't seen anyone adequately defend Hillary's positions on health care and Social Security. I have seen quite a few "shoot the messenger" posts, though.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
131. Kick their asses, Hillary! nt
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Michael101 Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
132. Gotta hand it to SaveElmer.....
So she showed up and VOTED FOR the Lieberman amendment.

VOTED FOR THE Peru, Panama & Colombia FTAs: NAFTA Expansion to the Rainforest and Beyond.

You think with those 35 years that she keeps bringing up, you would think she ought to know better. Oh wait, I think she does.

Gotta hand it to you saveelmer, you know how to start an issue about Obama without mentioning WHAT SHE VOTED FOR.

Don't get me started where her money comes from and WHO SHE SAID SHE WOULD BRING BACK TO THE WHITE HOUSE IF ELECTED (*cough) Collin Powell.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
135. "After eight years of incompetence, they don’t want false hopes, they want real results."
With the way Congress has been going this year, we will have to wait at least one more year for real results. And looking at the current crop of likely nominees, I dare say we will have to wait four, probably eight additional years after that.
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Carrieyazel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #135
139. Well stated. Hillary hasn't exactly given us real results.
Congress has been awful, and Hillary is a part of the problem. She's been there for seven years and has given us a lot of false hopes.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
136. Hillary is not perfect....but if given the op...She will do America WELL.
Obama is not ready for Prime time....shoulda stayed out and build a Senate record, maybe become Governor later....
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Carrieyazel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
137. Hillary's own voting record is being pored over as we speak.
That's the one area that any Senator is vulnerable to. So many things to rip apart. I don't see how Hillary gains by this.

And she has never served in executive office. That lack of experience is always a problem.
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
138. This whole thread is a good example of why the wars in our world never end.
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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
140. By next Sunday HRC will have the lead in the Des Moines
Edited on Tue Dec-04-07 02:23 PM by BenDavid
Registar poll and folks remember there are 12 polls being taken daily or every other day or weekly. Of the 12 HRC leads in 10. the two are the abc and now the registar giving obama the lead but within the margin of error. So, I am not too overly concerned but what I am concerned about is the msm reporting as they did from the 20th of November till the end of November this one poll obama was ahead on. (abc)

If you wanna truly know why obama is ahead in maybe 2 polls, I will give you the straight skinny.

the debate in pa. was October 30th. HRC messed up on the immigration question. From the end of the debate until November 15th there were no positive stories about HRC. All the positive press went to Obama and Edwards and other candidates.

Now the nevada debate took place on the 15th of November. All agreed HRC did herself good in that debate and from the night of the 15th till November the evening of November 19th HRC received positive press from the msm.

Now on November 19th abc produced their polling that showed obama had a lead. ( Note 1 poll out of 12 but these otehr polls were not talked about) Now from the 20th of November the msm reported negative stories about HRC and postive on Obama based on this one poll from abc. Even news organization did not report on their own polling that shown a different result HRC had a lead over Obama. Now this negative reporting kept up until this weekend and December 2 arrived and the des moines poll....but instead of showing only this one poll on december 3rd msn showed two otehr polls that hrc had the lead...

So do the math. October 31 till November 15th- 16 days of negative press.... november 16-november 19 4 days of postive press...
november 20th till Dec 2 13 days of negative press on HRC. 16 + 13 -4 = 25 days of NEGATIVE PRESS from MSM towards HRC.... BUT

thiswill change as HRC gears up to bring forth her IT'S THE ECONOMY, STUPID with the help of former Treasury Sec. Robert Rubin...

Ben David
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avrdream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #140
142. Nice analysis, Ben.
Pretty much true, too.

I know we have to have the "news" to find out what is going on in the world but I wish the MSM would keep their opinions out of it and just report the facts. It would make our lives easier when it comes to deciding who to vote for.
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Mrspeeker Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
141. Hum another corporate democrats vision for New America
I would Imagine the so called "New America" is the old Nazi Germany except for GM, IBM and Coke are in charge...Oh wait that was the old Nazi Germany, I guess I mean that Honda, Starbucks, and Walmart are in charge.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
143. That's a great speech by Hillary.
But I don't want her to come down too hard on Obama in her speeches.
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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
144. Yes, what brilliant ad-hominems
As though hrc has never abstained or missed a vote (or voted completely out of cowardice and ambition).

Once again hrc distinguishes herself from the pack by acting like a republican.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
146. "We need to stand up to the drug companies and the insurance companies and provide health care" How
can she do that when she take $$$$$ from their lobbyists? I've yet to see a politician who took bookoo bucks from a Corporate lobbyist and didn't give some kind of payback.:( I wonder how Hill plans on getting around that one?

Nice speech though!:thumbsup:
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
149. everything she says makes me sick to my stomach
God Bless Her though. The freepers will hate having her in the white house twice as much as I do!
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
150. Great line! nt
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
151. she's missed plenty of important votes herself
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #151
162. I can't get the link you've provided to work.
Ooops, no link. :wow:
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Flashman7 Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
155. well
it may be an incisive attack on Obama, but as far as touting her own self, it's all platitudes. when she says she's been working "35 years for the people of America", what is she talking about? she's been an elected official for all of 6 years, and in those few years voted FOR the Patriot Act, to give Bush the right to attack Iraq, the Kyle-________ amendment, just to name a few. what record is she talking about that she's running on? what important executive-type decision has she ever made?

that's right, none. not a single one.

i don't know about Obama's record, and she makes good points against him. but this little speech does nothing to build HER own self up. she remains as always spouting platitudes which barely deserve a serious mention.
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rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
156. They're both rubbish. pissing match between lackluster pollsters in polititians clothing.
Hows that?
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
157. Wait a sec. You're PROUD she votedon that res. condemning Iran?!?!
I''d prefer a non-corporate-whore, non-AIPAC-loving, non-warmonger supporting, non-for-profit healthcare candidate.
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rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #157
159. Dream on Buddy!! DLC owns you!
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-04-07 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #159
161. Don't own me! But they and AIPAC and corporations own Hillary.
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