It looks like Biden doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell in these primaries

[inthebrain]

Much of what I'm about to post here is anecdotal. Some of it and some of it isn't.

His Bankruptcy Bill vote and the viscous manner in which he voted down amendments to that bill will hang as the biggest albatross around his neck. For those that think people who only follow politics closely are aware of it better think again. Massachusetts may be Democrat central but even people here who moderately follow politics are aware of his actions while that bill was being debated.

Him being from Delaware is not going to excuse that robber baronesque rationale either.

His votes and complete ignorance in regards to partial birth abortions and why they are performed hasn't been easily swept under the rug either. Before right to life groups started making hay over this the medical procedure always was performed in cases when the mothers life was in jeopardy. The right used this as their biggest whip to drum up anti choice sentiment throughout the land. Biden, being the smart guy that he is, I am sure was well aware of this when he casted his votes.

Partial Birth Abortions have always been an extremely rare procedure. Anyone who's remotely studies the stages of pregnancy will tell you that ambivalence towards the pregnancy ends during the first trimester. Mom has already decided to keep the baby after the twelfth week.
No excuse for ignorance on this issue.

Appearances being everything in a campaign, Biden's recent bate of ignorant statements are not going away either. The latest in regards to immigration where he claims Mexico has a "corrupt culture" is not selling well in the hispanic/latino community. It may not be getting any press but those in the community that have heard are royally fucking pissed off about it. He utters that again and it will get press, more will hear of it and he can kiss his campaign goodbye.

His recent statement to Obama where he says Obama can be his civil rights council was trudging a line he has been famous to cross. Rationalize it as you will but the statement was not meant as a compliment. The problem here is that Biden either trudges that line or absolutely crosses it.

I could go down the line here where Biden has absolutely pissed off each sect of the Democratic Party's base at one time or another. Running a campaign right now claiming to be the only candidate that can work with the other side is not going to float. The other side is full of nutters and guess what?

IT"S BEYOND FUCKING CLEAR THAT THEY DON"T WANT TO WORK WITH YOU!!!!!

It took this guy six years to figure out he can't work with Bush. How long till he figures out the rest of the Republican party? That strategy does not work in todays political climate. Furthermore, both parties working together has resulted in the Alito appointment, Patriot Act, Iraq War and Biden's stinker of a Bankruptcy bill. America voted Democrat in 06 because they don't want this party to work hand in hand with Republicans.

They want an ass kicking.

It aint just Biden though and I should clarify that. The only issue I really have with him in the race is that he's trying to set himself up as an alternative to the front runners. On many issues that are important to Democrats he's either as bad or much worse. He's not much of an alternative. Overall, in a year where Republicans are flat on their backs we are stuck with the same triangualting bullshit we've always been stuck with. Rather than getting candidates that advance a real traditional Democratic agenda we are stuck with this crap. And the only candidate up their that does advance a real Democratic agenda is Kucinich.

[saltpoint]

1. You shouldn't offer a reconsideration of an event before it has or

(from the media's viewpoint, arguably) "hasn't" taken place, especially when the schedule itself kind of jumbled up people's initial expectations.

You say to yourself, if you're eligible to vote, "Can this have happened in the same way twice?" Well, I don't mean 'twice' as two separate times, but 'twice' as in who is actually selecting the candidate.

So a reconsideration of who's selected is nowhere near the same as a nomination race where the candidates are (in the first instance) 8 strong -- PLUS the distant but still mathemetically possible chance of a brokered convention -- ok, what used to be called that -- a delegate freeze in the first ballot so that no one of our 8 has enough to clinch.

Enter ________ ? Again -- is that thing happening again, which is to say, happening "twice" ? That's what some people may say to themselves if it happens.

And then, whose name goes in that blank? This is Denver, remember. Almost a year from now. High above sea level. New airport. Bad year for the Broncos. But a trend toward blue Democrats.

Hart? He's FROM Colorado, after all. Not officially running, but consistently qualified to serve. Biden, same breadth of command in foreign and domestic policies -- a point of some power unless you're a lurking freeper who doesn't like any Democrat. And may God save your wretched, demon-throttled soul from the hot blue blazes of hell forever and ever amen for voting for George Bush.

George Bush the Poppy and George Bush the Chimpy. Bush twice. "Twice."

[inthebrain]

2. ?

[saltpoint]

11. At the risk of not even understanding the question behind your question,

I'll blabble away on this a bit.

Some of the themes involved are the Denver Broncos and the Bush family. Not that I am a big Broncos fan, mind you. Some people hate them, but what's the point, exactly, of my saying that versus not saying that? There's a duality there, even if it is just at the football level of discussion. On one hand (1. Once) it doesn't matter whether I like the Denver Broncos or not. I do prefer their old logo 'D' on their helmets, as far as logos are concerned, over the hyper-gay horse they switched to. Having said that, I think it would be great if John Elway came out of the closet, that is, if he's gay. If he isn't gay, I still respect him as an athlete no matter what, but if he were gay and came out, I think most progressives would celebrate him, and shame on their bigoted butts if they don't. That's just my opinion.

Also, I want to know what person of either or any political party or candidate choice is going to go up to someone like Marv Levy and call him a stupid ass. Good luck on that project, because Marv Levy was an expert in history. Most U.S. 18-year olds can't find the Mississippi River on a map and most Republicans couldn't find it if they were on a boat on it and in it. Marv Levy could. I'm always distrustful of people who don't consider jocks smart. Marv could kick people's ass on a football field and he could kick their ass on JEOPARDY as well. Go, Bills.

On the other hand, (2. Twice), the theme is often mentioned in political discussions on DU about the Clinton/Bush prevalence in recent U.S. elections. Some like it. Some don't. I don't. I'm not a Clinton Democrat and far less a Bush Republican. This is DIFFERENT than being a Broncos fan. Or not. This is different from liking Denver as our Convention site. This is different from the Dubya foreign policy. For that matter, it's different from the Dubya domestic policy.

You could argue on the (Twice) side of the debate that Dubya doesn't HAVE a domestic policy. You could NOT argue that the Denver Broncos don't have a defense. If you are a quarterback sacked by the blitzing Broncos defense, you by god will be mumbling about the sheer reality of the Broncos defensive unit as the nice people from the ambulance service cart your ass to the emergency room. The same circumstances would not be so of George W. Bush and his alleged foreign policy and his nonexistent domestic policy.

Point being, some people are sick to damn death of the duality. This Once/Twice construction doesn't work for them because they're trying to live between paychecks. They're trying to watch a damn football game on Sunday afternoons after a long week of work. They don't care if Denver has a new airport or if Colonel Sanders slept with farm animals. They have a family to feed and they aren't the chief beneficiaries of Bush's corporate windfall tax-break America the way people like Ken Lay were/are. Obviously Ken Lay is dead, or if he isn't dead, for all we know he's hiding in the boiler room at the Denver Convention Center where our nomination process will begin less than a year from now.

Once / Twice. Bush / Clinton. There isn't a way through that woods without a far more detailed assessment of the players.

And that's whether or not someone is even a Broncos fan, a football plan, or -- and you know this is so -- a registered voter.

[WheelWalker]

58. I follow that, and I think you make a good point.

[saltpoint]

62. You are most gracious to say so, and do not appear to be aptly screen-named.

The pilgrim who searches for ancient knowledge is the truest traveler of all.

Thank you for undertaking that journey.

[aquart]

16. I had the same reaction.

[AngryAmish]

44. total timecube post, dude

[saltpoint]

56. I love it when people on DU call me 'dude.'

:evilgrin: :hi:

[Steely_Dan]

3. I Hope That This Helps

As a free service, I am offering the following suggestions with regard to your post:

The term “baronesque” does not appear in the dictionary. Perhaps you are referring to another term from a different source. Can you enlighten us?

The term “nutters” is also missing from the dictionary. I assume you mean like a “crazy person” or someone “off his nut.” Perhaps this is a colloquialism indigenous to your area.

“triangualting” is spelled “triangulating”

You use the term “in regards to” at least five times in your post. Other than being redundant, it is not exactly the correct usage. I might suggest dropping the “s” from “regards” or simply replace it with “concerning” or “about.”

IT"S BEYOND FUCKING CLEAR THAT THEY DON"T WANT TO WORK WITH YOU!!!!!

There are several problems with the above sentence. First, I would assume the use of quotation marks where the widely accepted apostrophe would typically go is a typo. However, it appears twice in the same sentence. I suppose that would be two typos? Or perhaps you are quoting the missing letters. In that case, you need to add closed quotes.

The term “aint” of course is also missing from the dictionary. I assume you mean “isn’t” or “is not.” Anyway, you could use the optional apostrophe between the “n” and the “t.” Or perhaps you could continue to use a quotation mark in its place. Once again, be sure to include the closed quotes where appropriate.

“IT’S BEYOND FUCKING CLEAR” I’m not sure that there is actually anything technically wrong with this fragment. However, I think you’ll agree that it is awkward at best. Perhaps you can rewrite this so it reads: “IT’S FUCKING CLEAR” or “IT’S CLEARLY FUCKING BEYOND” or “IT’S FUCKING OBVIOUS.” Something along those lines.

Finally, it is unusual to use more than three exclamation marks (or any other punctuation marks like question marks, etc.) when emphasizing a point. In this case, you have used five. While technically incorrect, the extra two exclamation marks do emphasize that “IT’S BEYOND FUCKING CLEAR.”

“The latest in regards to immigration where he claims Mexico has a "corrupt culture" is not selling well in the hispanic/latino community.”

In the above sentence, we find one of the “in regards to,” which was addressed earlier. My attention is drawn more to the term(s) “hispanic/latino.” It is BEYOND FUCKING CLEAR that both Hispanic and Latino need to be capitalized in that they refer to a group or organization.

There are some additional issues with the composition, but I really don’t want to be too picky.

I hope that this helps to improve your posts.

-P

[gateley]

4. Steely Dan, you forgot this:

And the only candidate up their that does advance a real Democratic agenda is Kucinich.

I think he probably meant to use "there", but perhaps I'm being too picky, too.

Kucinich would be so proud.

[Steely_Dan]

5. Dang...

You caught one that I missed.

-Paige

[KittyWampus]

31. If I were a troll, I'd probably pretend to support Kucinich. It gives so much space to attack

ANY Democrat.

[foo_bar]

6. you missed "viscous"

Not that Biden isn't coarse and sticky, as in "Biden's recent bate of ignorant statements". "Robber baronesque" is at least precedented (with a hyphen) if not standard usage. "Nutter" is indeed a colloquialism meaning "crazy person", oft heard in New England but indigenous to Original England, where the term appears in various dictionaries.

[Steely_Dan]

7. Very Good n/t

[inthebrain]

12. Just too bad none of you can hit the issues.

Sorry, but I just read cowardice and the desire to have this stuff swept under the rug in responses like this.

I would think Biden would want you to debate the issues.

[1corona4u]

25. We've hit the issues 2000 times, and given you the facts...

and yet, you ignore them and carry on with your irrational diatribe. You just don't get it, and I suspect, you never will. But, frankly, I don't care what you think. If you think YOU can bring down Joe, with all of your myopic, hatefilled post, then knock yourself out. It just makes you, and the others posting this irrelevant crap, look like someone who has a giant chip on your shoulder because no one is listening to your little pip-squeak, wanna be, Dennis. And, that is the reality.

[inthebrain]

26. All I see is attack the messenger

Everytime I see Biden supported on the issues he advocates he looks more and more like a Republican to me. When that fails you go after the poster.

Brush it under the rug, pick non sequitor stances and attack the messenger.

I can pick a candidate apart on the issues all day long.

I don't care if a candidate I support is picked apart on the issues either. They should be. I'd rather that than play sychophant for a candidate all day long.

And if you think my posting on a message board is going to take down a candidate then you really should reevaluate your campaign strategy. Seriously.

You've gone beyond obsessed.

Nothing posted here is going to effect the real world anymore than a candidate is going to "save us all".

[1corona4u]

20. That, was fucking priceless...

Thanks for the morning humor...LOL

[greyl]

8. He'll be fine. nt

[Froward69]

9. Obviously you cannot find anything else to bloat about.

"His Bankruptcy Bill vote and the viscous manner in which he voted down amendments to that bill will hang as the biggest albatross around his neck."
I must add, those issues you pointed out do not resonate with the majority of Democrats. in so far as my take on the subject:

I am a self employed small business owner. I am a landlord. I have an 11 unit building. When all is full after all the bills i make about $700 per month. when someone skips or does not pay the rent. I try to be reasonable and allow the tenant to try to catch up... 9 of 10 times the tenant simply moves out owing 1-2 months rent. ok I spend around $200-$400 to turn over a unit. in those instances, I never saw the rent, nor the expenses of turn over. as well as the unit may stand 1-2 months vacant. Under the old rules the amount owed (simply rent) was just dismissed in bankruptcy. I was never even notified the tenant was in bankruptcy. now I receive letters asking me how much I would accept to settle the overdue amount. I am placed on the same plain as the banks and credit card companies. so all you are saying to me is it was ok for me to be stiffed. reckless spending and abuse of the system was rampant I was simply left out of what was owed to me. Under the new rules this abuse of the small business owner has been curbed. if you were fired or quit and started your own business wouldn't you want to be paid for your services? living on the edge is a way of life for Us on our own. I for one am happy Joe Biden helped make the small business owner equal to The banks and credit card company in court.

Small business is the backbone of the democratic party.

the absolute focus of your constant posts is all about Your Fear of Biden. much like The Republicans.

[inthebrain]

10. You're not the back bone of this party

If you can't screen your tenants then that's your fault. Plain and simple. Most landlords do a thorough credit check on their applicants.

The majority of democrats don't own small businesses.

The majority of Democrats are not landlords.

You already have one party of business owners and landlords. They've been fucking up the country for years with their trickle down economics. Mostly a bunch of wealthy people that can't take responsibility for their own shit.

If you can't properly credit check your tenants you deserve the stiffing. And no, benkruptcy court is not rampantly abused and this bil doesn't do anything to prevent abuse of the system.

[Froward69]

14. here we go again.

I realize you are only here to piss people off...
http://progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=202&topic_id=6258
to answer your asinine statement.
so as someone who DOES check criminal histories, no so much as credit. I have a safe Building. eliminating a potential tenant simply because of their credit is just stupid... I learned this lesson the Hard way. A guy with stellar credit moved in and burglarized and raped another tenant. why did he have stellar credit? because he was in prison for ten years!!! you have just revealed yourself as someone without a clue. Giving accolades to credit reports while railing against banks and credit card companies is hypocritical at best. thus your angst at the bankruptcy bill? you would rather declare bankruptcy than have a stain on your credit report? guess what, bankruptcy stays on your credit report far longer than simply closing out the credit card and not making payment. Is this why you are so upset?
so to you non payment of debt is a good thing? thats very Republican of you look at the NATIONAL DEBT!

I agree the majority of Dem's are not business owners. those of us who do strike out on our own are villains?
small businesses IS the backbone of Dem's here. as Unions are in the northeast.

You already have one party of business owners and landlords. They've been fucking up the country for years with their trickle down economics. Mostly a bunch of wealthy people that can't take responsibility for their own shit.

If you can't properly credit check your tenants you deserve the stiffing. And no, benkruptcy court is not rampantly abused and this bil doesn't do anything to prevent abuse of the system.

Thats a contradictory statement. spelled ="bankruptcy" by the way. (rampantly abused and abuse of the system) ARE THE SAME STATEMENT You Really don't think you should pay your debts or child support do you? I agree, abuse of bankruptcy court was and still is rampant. only now you actually have to live by a budget, and pay what you owe. without retaining assets you would otherwise get to keep without paying for... Thats theft. Under the new rules the judge can take into account extenuating circumstances and rule accordingly. Actually being considered equal to Big business and credit cards is a good thing. If you are owed for services rendered.


I really Hope one day You grow the balls to step out on your own... Then get stiffed. so you know just how it feels. I agree Big business is mostly predatory, however budget education as to how to avoid the pratfalls in HIGH SCHOOL would go far as to keeping the American public out of bankruptcy court.

[inthebrain]

22. All you've proven is that you don't know how to read a credit report

Someone in prison for ten years is going to have absolutely no revolving credit for ten years.

All that stuff shows up on the report when you do a credit check.

You deserve to get stiffed. Small business owners (petty bourgeoisie) are just tiny admirers of their large corporate counterparts. Even so I can find you just as many small business owners and petty landlords that find this bill despicable.

Biden did nothing on the Bankruptcy bill but stiff the little guy and offer bankruptcy protections for the fat cats. He strengthened their ability to homestead their assets while ensuring that the working stiff lose theirs.

Me being "out on my own" has no bearing what-so-ever on this discussion. It is quite obvious that it hasn't done anything to smarten you up. You aren't capable of reading a simple credit report. It seems that you're inability to read a simple document is your excuse for applauding this bill. Meanwhile, it does nothing to stem bankruptcy abuse or bankruptcy in general.

It's typical when the greedy bastard want to get theirs that they play victim and exagerate minute abuses and paint the whole with it. This was evident in regards to welfare recipients and is today on the issue of immigration and bankruptcy. Last I checked MBNA/ Bank of America have been cleaning house with profit.

Reminds me of when insurance companies play victim. If their was no profit these people wouldn't have gotten into the game in the first place. One would have to be extremely naive and fucking stupid to buy any of this crap.

Of course, like Republicans, Biden supporters are out to play the same game on this issue.

And speaking of child support payments. What of the single parent who gets stiffed and needs protection. This bill does nothing to protenct her/him in lieu of missed child support payments. Then again, Biden is famous for slipping and supporting shitty backdoor legislation that doesn't exactly protect those he claims.

Take his child predator bill which is nothing more than an invasion of privacy on the part of big business against the little guy.

I really doubt this guy wins the nomination. He's worse than Lieberman and even if he did win, would outright lose the support of the left in the general. They won't come to the polls for this snake. If the turnout for 2000 was thought to be bad 2008 will be much worse.

His bankruptcy bill support hurts people the most in states where Democrats have a tough time winning in the general. Those red states and borderline states like Ohio and Florida. Those folks will vote the devil they know every single time.

[Froward69]

32. Begining to End

"Someone in prison for ten years is going to have absolutely no revolving credit for ten years.

All that stuff shows up on the report when you do a credit check. blah blah blah I dont have a clue blah blah...

His bankruptcy bill support hurts people the most in states where Democrats have a tough time winning in the general. Those red states and borderline states like Ohio and Florida.

first of all incarceration DOES NOT show up on a credit check. having no credit history is why you got that Credit card the day after your 18th that you are having a hard time getting out of. DUH!
second You are the ONLY one who takes issue with this. In those "red" states this is not an issue. at all!
Third The left does not win elections. it may help. however, overall the Undecided voters are the citizens who win elections. Their is more important things in this world than your aversion to paying your bills.
lastly you are so wrong about child support. http://biden.senate.gov/newsroom/details.cfm?id=234426&&

on edit = I am done feeding you tumor, you have NOTHING constructive to say so why do you say it? I have work to do. maybe if you got a job you could pay that credit card debt you are crying over.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aquart]

18. Excuse me? Got a link to the survey?

I'm guessing you don't know WTF the Democrats are...or what we do for a living.

I'm guessing you know nothing about small business or the strength it takes, while being seen as a cash cow by all local governments with taxing power.

If Biden did one decent thing in his life and alleviated the burden on small business people, I thank him. I don't forgive him for Anita Hill, but I do thank him.

And here's something else. ANY ONE of our candidates is good enough and smart enough for this crushing job. They actually are. And every one of them will still make catastrophic mistakes because it's a new ballgame and the disaster is endless. We aren't going to have the resources to save us all. We won't.

The details of personal choice are just that. Biden blotted his copybook for me on Anita Hill. Hillary on the IWR because she's my senator and I expected better. Even though I'm pretty sure why she did it. I chose Edwards because I think he has the best understanding of America's labor issues and they have to come first before anything else will get moving. That's me. I don't ask that any other person vote or think like I do. I will cast my ballot and see who stands with me. If no one else does, I will vote for the majority choice, even if it's Oprah's rock star.

And, again, I thank Biden for one decent thing. Is there anything else in that bill that isn't horrible?

[Tejanocrat]

13. Why single Biden out? You could say the same of Richardson's, Dodd's, Kucinich's or Gravel's chances

[inthebrain]

23. I didn't single him out.

You didn't read the whole post.

[Tejanocrat]

34. My bad.

[zulchzulu]

15. I wish Biden's campaign the best as well as his supporters

We'll see what happens.

[1corona4u]

19. Why, yes, we will.

[Steely_Dan]

24. Thanks...

I always enjoy reading your posts on other threads.

-P

[momto3]

17. Biden must really be doing well to warrant such attacks.

If he was doing poorly, why waste all of this effort?

Peace.

[1corona4u]

21. LOL, I know, right...

perhaps they saw the SC numbers, LOL...

[flpoljunkie]

27. Biden says on This Week he'll "quit the race if he fails to finish in Iowa's top three."

This Week: Biden calls for special counsel to investigate CIA tape destruction, calls Bush White House “the Nixon Administration without the competence.” Says he’ll quit race if he fails to finish in IA’s top three, though he’s made a “serious television buy” to begin Tuesday.

http://thepage.time.com/2007/12/09/on-the-sunday-shows-5/

[gateley]

28. He's said that since the beginning. nt

[Debi]

60. He'll stay in if he comes in fourth and all four are bunched together n/t

[Tejanocrat]

64. Why? Whether they are bunched or not, 4th isn't a result that'll boost fund-raising or New Hampshire

prospects.

On January 4, there will only be as many viable candidates as Hillary plus the candidates who beat Hillary in Iowa.

If Hillary wins, it's over and the news will be about her coronation.

If only one candidate beats Hillary, it will be reported in all the media as a two candidate race going into New Hampshire. Neither the 3rd place finisher nor the 4th place finisher will get a bump or any favorable news coverage or any new funds.

If two candidates beat Hillary, the 4th place candidate will get no exposure and no funding windfall because the top three will get all of that attention and money.

If three candidates beat Hillary, the story for the next five days culminating in the New Hampshire will be Hillary's collapse and the insurgence of whichever second tier candidate beats her.

Whether Biden, Kucinich, Richardson, or Dodd comes in 4th will be a complete non-story because all the media oxygen will be about either (1) Hillary's coronation or (2) how the top tier's performance in Iowa will affect their performance in New Hampshire. Even if Biden, Kucinich, Richardson, or Dodd comes in 4th place by a whisker, 4th place is just not news because no will be surprised if Biden or Richardson comes in 4th and no one except me and the other Kucinich fans will care if Kucinich comes in 4th (same is true for Dodd).

If Biden is going to make it real, now's his chance, and he has GOT to beat Hillary in Iowa to get any real news coverage and any fund raising bump. I hope he can do it.

[Debi]

67. I'm only repeating what Biden said - not helping organize his campaign strategy

or handicapping the race.

Have you thought about what happens if 1/2 or 2/3 or 3/4 are tied?

Does a candidate drop out of the race if 3rd brings in 15% and 4th brings in 14%?

[Tejanocrat]

70. Thanks for clarifying. My misunderstanding. Do you have a link? I thought Biden said he'd withdraw

if he didn't finish in the top three, no?

With regard to the handicapping, I don' think any ties are going to matter because the nature of the post-Iowa bump has historically been media generated.

If Edwards and Hillary tie for 1st, Obama will be crucified in New Hampshire just the same as if Obama and Hillary tie for 1st, Edwards would be crushed in New Hampshire if that happens.

If a second-tier candidate finishes 4th with 14% and the 3rd place candidate gets 15%, it won't matter that the second-tier candidate came pretty close. The Pyhrric victory inherent in the 4th place finish will will be drowned out by the media scramble over the next 5 days of reporting on Hillary and whoever will be her rival(s) in New Hampshire (especially when you consider that there will also be equal coverage of the Iowa results on the Repub side).

I want to remove this discussion from the context of Biden because I know that you feel strongly about him (that a nice quality).

Let's just assume that Omaba's use of Oprah backfires badly (it won't, but just assume), and Edwards wins, Biden comes in second, Hillary third, and Richardson comes in fourth, just 1% behind Hillary.

Richardson's 4th place finish would be a huge win for him, but it still wouldn't make much news. The news will be all about "will Hillary bounce back?," and "will Biden or Edwards become Hillary's chief challenger?," and "WTF happened to Obama?" Plus, the news will also be about "Giuliani, Thompson, and McCain fizzle" and "will Huckabee's win in Iowa catapult him past Romney in New Hampshire?" There just won't be enough oxygen for the media to cover the plucky Richardson campaign which fought to a valiant 4th place.

Without the media during the especially short Iowa-to-New Hampshire window, Richardson won't get the funds he'd need to raise his prospects for Big-Tuesday. The difference between 4th place and 8th place is really nothing more than pride. Hell, if Hillary comes in 2nd, the difference between 3rd place and 8th is just pride. Even worse, if Hillary wins Iowa, it will hardly matter who comes in 2nd because she'll likely run the table after coming into New Hampshire as "the return of the comeback kid."

[Czolgosz]

71. Did you ever get a link?

[Tejanocrat]

72. Not yet, but the poster knows her stuff about Biden so I presume she is correct and I am mistaken.

[1corona4u]

73. Here's your stupid link...

I think we're all getting a little tired of doing everyone's homework for them...not that I genuinely think you cared at all.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/10/16/biden_eyes_close_fourth_in_iowa/
And here is a more recent one;

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view.bg?articleid=1049040

Happy Now?

[Tejanocrat]

74. Thanks for the link. It was the Sept. 3 statement referenced in your first link which I was

recalling:

Biden told The Associated Press on Sept. 3 that he needed to finish "first, second or an indistinguishable third (in Iowa). To tell you the truth, if I don't, then this has been a nice exercise and I'll see you again when you come to visit Washington."

You may not appreciate this fact, but I DO care because if I am expressing doubts about a candidate, I make an effort to be accurate and to focus on issues rather than smear (my only objection to Biden is ideological -- I think he's a fine person and I'd support him if he got the nomination).

I had represented that Biden said he'd get out of the race if he came in fourth in Iowa. Debi, who seems very well informed about Biden, said otherwise. I wanted to know if Debi was correct so I could apologize, correct any mistake, and stop repeating an error if I was mistaken.

Now I see that my recollection of Biden's Sept. 3 statement was accurate, but that Biden has since refined his view. That is good to know, and I will refrain from saying that Biden intends to drop out if he comes in fourth in Iowa.

Just because we disagree about Biden, you need not assume that I don't have a preference to be accurate in my understanding of Biden's past statements. You have said some very harsh things about my preferred candidate, and yet I have not questioned your motivations.

[hvn_nbr_2]

29. Looks like Biden has passed the "first they ignore you" stage, with some at least. nt

[KittyWampus]

30. Who gives a fuck about your thoughts on the race OR Biden? You've contributed nothing of value

to any discussion on DU that I'm aware of.

I've never even seen you start threads lauding Kucinich.

The ONLY thing you seem to do is slam Biden. And your posts aren't well thought out or written.

[inthebrain]

36. I guess I'm not fair and balanced

and these posts are going to derail Bidens campaign.

[Froward69]

37. sorry

crusty. you are Otiose.

[1corona4u]

38. Man, you really have an inflated

sense of self importance, don't you. Too bad that doesn't match your intellect, or your self esteem.

[inthebrain]

39. Note your inability to detect sarcasm

Duly noted.

[1corona4u]

41. The why do you waste all of your time posting stupid shit...

I really do think you think you can change people's minds. Problem is, we're not buying what you're selling. It seems to me your time would be better spent in anger management classes. Seriously, this anger is going to eat you alive. You don't own a gun, do you?

[inthebrain]

43. It ain't so stupid as you have a real hard time tackeling it.

Again, all it is with these threads is attack the messenger. When you do defend the candidate you come off looking extremely ugly yourself.

There's nothing more valuable than stripping down the candidate on the issue and their supporters showing their true faces. I suppose you have nothing to say to the fact that if Biden becomes the nominee he will lose all base support. He's pissed off just about every sect of the base on the issues or in statement at one point or another.

If you're campaigning for this guy in the real world as you do on this board this candidate is going to have serious problems. The difference here is that I can take on a candidate on the issues and all the Biden supporters have is to attack the messenger.

At the end of the day I am not running for office. OTOH I like a good discussion about the candidates on the issues. It sure as hell beats parading photo ops and putting across the illusion that the guy really gives a fuck about working folk. All I have to do is go down the board on his record and past statements.

Biden is either worse or just as bad as the top three on the issues. If anything he's republicanesque and just as bad as they are on a whole host of issues. The Bankruptcy issue and issues of class has you just as bad as the Bush supporters.

There is also such a thing as healthy skeptism on what the candidate says or does that seems to be really lacking amongst Bidenites. I've witnessed about seven years of this crap from Bush supporters and behaving like a sychophant on these things serves no good for anyone.

Not even you or the candidate.

It is fascinating to see all this take place after all these years of politicians lying to the public about a whole host of issues. It's even worse when the guy who's supposed to be an expert on these things claims he was duped when others that are lesser in the know, know better.

How is it that so many other folks knew not to trust Bush when Biden didn't? These folks all served under Nixon and believe in the same ridiculous bullshit he did.

Paul Oneil caught on much quicker than Biden did. As well as Richard Clark.

Even Bidens stances on partial birth abortions and rationalizations for his votes are retarded. Even a lowly "bed pan cleaner" can tell he has no clue as to what he is talking about.

[inthebrain]

40. I should also note

if your going to question intellect, perhaps you might want to look at your candidate.

The guy who says abortion is not a right and Mexico is the second wealthiest nation in the western hemisphere. For a guy who's on the foreign relations committee he's really not that bright.

I am much smarter than him. Not to mention his sychophant supporters (especially the one that can't read a credit report).

[1corona4u]

42. God...you really have a problem....

Please get some help.

[laylah]

51. Sorry but when I see

the (un-)word "ain't", intelligence is not the first thought that comes to my mind :eyes:

[Froward69]

33. I disagree

I see A Definite "snow ball effect" happening with Biden. In so far as an Avalanche beginning to happen.
All down hill from here.

[K Gardner]

45. I see you're off your meds again. Its VERY important that you take them everyday ! On the other

hand, thank you for once again helping keep Biden's name visible and at the top of the forum! Go Joe !

[Steely_Dan]

66. LOLOLOLOLOL

[frogmarch]

46. Kucinch is better than Biden?

Have you seen this Dec. 5, 2007 article?

http://clevescene.com/2007-12-05/news/the-king-of-spin/#comments

[Stop Cornyn]

47. Why so much anti-Kucinich trash talk in this thread? Biden needs votes from Hillary, not Kucinich,

if he's going to reach his maximum potential in Iowa (I used to think 4th was his best case scenario, but I'm starting to believe that if Hillary falls far enough Biden could come in 3rd).

As a Kucinich supporter, I think there is little that Biden offers to Kucinich supporters, but Biden is a decent guy and I think there is a lot of Hillary/Richardson/Biden overlapping potential for supporters. Biden's done a great job stealing away much of Richardson's support, and it wasn't by attacking Richardson (nor will attacking Kucinich win Biden any support -- as if we Kucinich supporters were numerous enough to make a difference in Iowa -- I WISH!).

You guys ought to drop the anti-Kucinich talk and start making direct head-to-head issue comparisons between Biden and Hillary (who stole YOUR votes when she chose to run on EXPERIENCE).

Don't attack Hillary -- just show how anyone who supports Hillary because of what she says she brings to the table that they are better off with Biden because he has what she offers but he has more of it (isn't that how you have begun to take support from Richardson?).

[gateley]

48. It's interesting that you say Biden offers little to Kucinich supporters, because,

conversely, most of us Biden supporters REALLY like Dennis! In theory, I'm aligned with him very closely. I just feel Biden has the ability to work across the aisle better (amazing how that phrase has become part of my lexicon). I have a concern about Dennis being too inflexible, which is certainly admirable from an idealistic point of view, (the SCHIP vote is an example), but as much as it disgusts me, that's not how things get accomplished in DC. I think they both deeply want to do what's right and are willing to fight for it, albeit with a different 'war plan'.

[Stop Cornyn]

49. It seems like I often see Kucinich bashing from Bidenites (OTHER Bidenites, not you). Were you here

when the 2005 Bankruptcy Bill passed? If not, here are a few links to some of the discussion from back then:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3229091
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1647404
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1562586

Among the economic liberals (me included), there was GREAT consternation over the Democrats who were the bill's biggest supporters in the Senate (Biden, Carper, Johnson, and Nelson).

Many of those same people who were very upset about that bill are now Kucinich supporters (which makes sense to me). I'm assuming that those same people who were very upset with Biden, Carper, Johnson, and Nelson over the Bankruptcy Bill of 2005 and who now support Kucinich are not among those people who are most likely to switch into Biden supporters (but I could be wrong).

I'm not a one issue voter, and I prefer Biden to some of the other candidates. If Biden wins the nomination, I'll work my ass off for him. But I guessing that Biden appeals more to Democratic centrists rather than far lefties like me who support Kucinich (but I could be wrong).

[gateley]

53. Nope, wasn't here then, and believe me, the LAST thing I want to read about

is the 2005 Bankruptcy Bill. I'm really unhappy with Biden's vote on that, too - and I've yet to hear him explain WHY he voted as he did on some of those amendments.

I'd consider myself a far lefty -- hence my regard for Dennis -- but at this time, I guess, my priorities are getting our troops out now (and I know Dennis is for that, too), and mending our relationship with the world ASAP. I think Biden has more experience in that area - has developed rapport and relationships with the world leaders as a result of his position with the SFRC. Idealistically, I'm in agreement with Dennis's Strength Through Peace platform, but pragmatically, I think we need to get TO that place and I feel Biden can best achieve that goal.

You're right, I don't think I've EVER said a negative word about Kucinich -- I wouldn't, because I agree so wholeheartedly with what he stands for.

I guess my point was that I find it a little ironic that you said Biden has little to offer Kucinich supporters, but I, a strongly committed Biden supporter, am very much in line with Dennis's philosophies.


OR, God help me, maybe I'm becoming a centrist. :scared:

[1corona4u]

54. I don't know who you're talking to, but perhaps it's time for my

ceremonial BK post;

As I have posted many, many, times on this board, Joe voted for the BK bill, for women and children. Under the old BK laws, divorced women with children were the last ones to be paid, if the deadbeat dad filed a BK. Now, they are the first ones to be paid. If you ever question why Joe votes for anything, go look at the floor statements on his website. They will clearly give you an idea of where his interest were. Not in some bank, as has been previously speculated on. There's just no denying that Joe has stood up for women's rights, in a big way. As in the violence against women act, and now, the International violence against women act. But, no "bill" will ever work for all people. There are a lot of people who respect the revisions of the 2005 BK bill. I am one of them.

My best friend is about to reap the rewards of this bill. Her X has just filed a BK, after leaving her without ANY child support, for 2 children, 8 & 6, for 4 years, and just on Thursday of last week, thought that he could get out of paying her by filing a BK. Well, it's people like him that will not be able to get away with it now. He claimed to have lost his 135K yr. job, and had protested ANY request for documentation for his current financial status. Her attorney called for deposition, forcing discovery. Then came back and filed a BK. I know for a fact that he hid money, and that he is also still working, under the table. Under the new law, he will be fully investigated by the courts.

A Senator sometimes has to vote for a bad bill, if there is something in it they truly want. I believe that was Joe's dilemma on the BK bill. But you can look for yourself, and see his financial contributions from banks from 1998, and it's not very impressive.

JOSEPH R. BIDEN JR.: CAREER PROFILE (SINCE 1989)

Top Industries
The top industries supporting Joseph R. Biden Jr. are:
1 Lawyers/Law Firms $6,265,871
2 Real Estate $1,172,230
3 Retired $853,148
4 Securities & Investment $839,775
5 Misc Finance $499,470
6 Misc Business $462,641
7 Business Services $455,925
8 Health Professionals $382,275
9 TV/Movies/Music $364,666
10 Lobbyists $333,185
11 Finance/Credit Companies $294,650
12 Misc Manufacturing & Distributing $294,249
13 Pro-Israel $272,700
14 Commercial Banks $269,050
15 Education $249,725
16 Insurance $223,975
17 Retail Sales $186,400
18 General Contractors $175,550
19 Accountants $136,935
20 Democratic/Liberal $129,490

So, that's about a $563,000 bucks in 18 years. Or $31,000 a year in contributions. I doubt he did it for the banks, at all.





There.....that should do it. ;-)

[Stop Cornyn]

57. Promote Biden's bi-partisanship and his foreign experience, but his bankruptcy record is gag making.

You say "Joe voted for the BK bill, for women and children." That is so WRONG it s offensive!

Divorce is a leading cause of bankruptcy. Newly single mothers with children are the biggest part of this divorce-created bankruptcy epidemic. The failure to pay child support obligations is part of the problem, but bankruptcy is not a leading reason that "deadbeat dads" fail to pay their child support.

To the contrary, BIDEN ELIMINATED BANKRUPTCY PROTECTIONS FOR WOMEN WITH YOUNG CHILDREN WHOSE DIVORCES CAUSED THEIR FINANCIAL HARDSHIP!

For you to argue the opposite just shows that you are ill informed on this topic!

[inthebrain]

69. Women are amongst the hardest hit and Biden is lying his ass off

http://www.pirg.org/consumer/bankrupt/index.htm#women

Women Would be Among the Hardest Hit. Women represent the single largest group in bankruptcy, with households headed by women accounting for about 40 percent of all bankruptcies today. By creating new types of "nondischargeable" credit card debts, the bill puts banks in competition with women trying to collect child support from a former spouse after bankruptcy. This is why more than 20 national women's organizations have opposed the legislation. Supporters' of the bill assert that it "puts child support first" by making the payment of child support a top priority when distributing debtor assets in chapter 7 cases. This claim is highly misleading, since more than 90 percent of all chapter 7 debtors have no assets to distribute. But these debtors will have to pay back more money in credit card debts after clearing bankruptcy, leaving less money for child support and alimony.

[laylah]

50. Who pissed in your

cheerios? And wtf is it with you and your continuous anti-Biden posts? If you don't start your own thread, you hijack another.

[jillan]

52. Since you post about Biden every day - you really should find some new material

The same old crap you post is getting really, really boring.

[saltpoint]

61. Totally agree. New material's just what the doctor ordered. I for one would

love to read a retrospective on Wilbur Mills.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilbur_Mills

[inthebrain]

68. Funny, you post about me every single day.

[WheelWalker]

55. I have a theory as to how you came up with your screen name...

somewhere along the way, you took one - in the brain, that is.

[Stop Cornyn]

59. I'm surprised that a person posting under the name "The Village Idiot" chose to pick this particular

fight.

[Steely_Dan]

65. LOLOLOLOL

[Kat45]

63. Did you run out of Biden threads to break into with your barrage of insults,

that you had to start your own thread to do so?

[Stop Cornyn]

75. I'm thinking more and more that Biden could come in as high as third if Hillary collapses