"Progressives" love what they profess to hate when it comes to Obama

[wyldwolf]

Like Clinton, Obama has a homing instinct for the middle -- maybe too much of one. To read his book "The Audacity of Hope" is to be struck by his constant desire to understand -- even more, to respect -- conflicting views on whatever issue he happens to be discussing.

This is impressive until it becomes, finally, exasperating in its seemingly compulsive even-handedness. "I'm not unsympathetic to Justice Scalia's position," Obama, recovering law review president that he is, writes about the debate on constitutional interpretation. "Like many conservatives . . . I believe we ignore culture factors at our peril," he writes about the values debate. "Not all these fears are irrational," he writes of anti-immigrant sentiment.

Obama fits himself explicitly into the Clinton mold. "In his platform -- if not always in his day-to-day politics -- Clinton's Third Way went beyond splitting the difference," he writes. "It tapped into the pragmatic, nonideological attitude of the majority of Americans."

Obama is like Bill Clinton in his natural ease with people and his ability to win them over. A New York Times story about Obama's law school days described how Obama "cast himself as an eager listener, sometimes giving warring classmates the impression that he agreed with all of them at once." As they debated whether to use the term "black" or "African-American," "students on each side of the debate thought he was endorsing their side," the story said. " 'Everyone was nodding, Oh, he agrees with me,' " said professor Charles Ogletree.

Sounds like everyone who's ever emerged from a meeting with Bill Clinton.

If Obama is the Clintonian figure in the race, Hillary Clinton may be Al Gore, more disciplined policy wonk than natural politician. Like Gore, Hillary Clinton can be more adroit intellectually than politically; both face the challenge, fair or not, of convincing voters of their "authenticity."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/30/AR2007013001653.html

[polichick]

1. Obama the natural politician, and Hillary the policy wonk...

Yep, that's a good description of their styles ~ but both are too beholden to the ways of Washington to create the kind of change we so desperately need in this country.

[Bread and Circus]

2. Obama and Hillary are both trimmers... however the difference is...

one is likeable...
one is not...

one seems like a natural born leader...
one is not...

one would be a fresh start with no previous WH baggage...
one would not...

one is charismatic...
one is not...

one speaks clearly and pleasantly...
one does not...

[wyldwolf]

3. Like Bill Clinton and Al Gore... yet not a day goes by without an anti-Clinton screed

[Bread and Circus]

7. Al Gore wasn't a trimmer, however he did let himself get sullied by

Clinton.

But yes, overall Clinton has more charisma than Gore. However, he is full of a lot more horseshit too.

But either way, you opened yourself to the critique of Hillary. If according to you no one is better than the other on paper, then how about we go with the one that is likeable?

[wyldwolf]

8. now now, let's not revise history

I believe it was Gore who "sullied" Clinton.

[polichick]

16. How so?? nt

[wyldwolf]

19. this is how so

Al Gore, who was in on the earliest meetings of the DLC (not Clinton) was Clinton's point man on NAFTA and welfare reform. In fact, as several books on the Clinton presidency mention, Gore was very insistant that he be given the job of crafting welfare reform after the '92 election. The Clintons had hoped the issue would fade away.

[Bread and Circus]

17. That's the biggest crock of shit ever... let's compare a cigar to a nobel prize

...shall we?

Which one smells better?

[wyldwolf]

20. Now THAT'S the biggest crock of shit ever

We're discussing Senator and Vice President Al Gore from the 80s to 2000.

[Bread and Circus]

22. Um.... I'm not quite sure you have the license to define the terms of the debate..

but at least you don't argue that Hillary is unlikeable so we are in agreement there.

[wyldwolf]

23. um... the OP defines the terms of the debate..

The article in the OP was referring to Al Gore the presidential candidate in 2000.

[Bread and Circus]

25. I didn't know the Al Gore we are referring to is more than one person...

and all along I thought he was one guy.

/end sarcasm.

Dude, you are just being ridiculous and again can't stay on topic.

[wyldwolf]

26. It is you who can't stay on topic! LOL!

:rofl:

Al Gore, who encouraged Bill Clinton to push welfare reform, who was the point name on NAFTA, there's your topic.

[Bread and Circus]

28. yeah... so now you are blaming Clinton's bad moves on Gore...

This is like Hillary who never knows when her campaign manager is doing something stupid or outrageous.

That's just pathetic.

[wyldwolf]

34. uh, no, it's documented these were Gore's babies

This is just like a "progressive"* - no knowledge of history.

[Bread and Circus]

35. interesting, because I have other Clinton dittoheads claiming that...

NAFTA was given birth by the Republicans and George Bush senior and only ratified by Clinton. No mention of Gore, there.

You guys better compare notes.

Oh and one more thing, Gore's not running so why the fuck are you trying to slime him?

I thought this was a slime Obama cuz he's somehow like Hillary thread :shrug:

[Bread and Circus]

37. Oh this is rich...

Nafta Wiki....


History of the implementation
NAFTA was initially pursued by corporate interest in the United States and Canada supportive of free trade, led by Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, U.S. President George H. W. Bush, and the Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gortari. The three countries signed NAFTA in December 1992, subject to ratification by the legislatures of the three countries. There was considerable opposition in all three countries, especially among intellectuals who stated that it was an ill-conceived initiative. In the United States, NAFTA was able to secure passage after Bill Clinton made its passage a major legislative priority in 1993. Since the agreement had been signed by Bush under his fast-track prerogative, Clinton did not alter the original agreement, but complemented it with the aforementioned NAAEC and NAALC. After intense political debate and the negotiation of these side agreements, the U.S. House passed NAFTA by 234-200 (132 Republicans and 102 Democrats voting in favor, 156 Democrats, 43 Republicans, and 1 independent against).<5> and the U.S. Senate passed it by 61-38<6>

--- end snip ---

Yes, the fact that Clinton put Al Gore out there to spin on NAFTA does not make it his baby. Was Gore an idiot for being Clinton's pawn? probably. Was he a bigger idiot in running w/ Lieberman? for sure. Like he says himself, Gore is a bad Politician and has played nice with some creepy people. I think he's somewhat recovered from the nightmare.

[wyldwolf]

39. yes it is, so let's continue it. I'll even put it in a simple to understand timeline for you

Vice President Gore on NAFTA

"It's a choice between pessism and optimism. It's a choice between the status quo, leave things as they are, enact new tariffs on Mexico and I don't know who else or move forward into the future with confidence. We're not scared. We're not a nation of quitters. We're not a nation that is afraid to compete in the world marketplace."

--------------------------------
1988: Leading up to the presidential campaign of 1988, "Gore has positioned himself as a moderate who believes in deficit reduction, free trade, and a strong defense."

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1988/03/14/70305/index.htm

1991: Al Gore, considered a presidential candidate for the '92 campaign, appears with the DLC as they draft an agenda that endorses the notion of giving Mr. Bush "fast track" authority to negotiate a free trade agreement with Mexico.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CEFDD1331F93BA35756C0A967958260

<--- 1992: Bush I pursues and signs NAFTA

1993: Bill Clinton made its passage a major legislative priority in 1993, adding in NAAEC and NAALC (labor and environmental protections)

1993: Gore assembles the NAFTA sales force - Mickey Kantor as US trade rep, Bill Daley as "NAFTA Czar."

1993: Gore convinces several environmental groups to support NAFTA: The Environmental Defense Fund, the Audubon Society, World Wildlife Fund, National Wildlife Federation, and National Resources Defense Council. Gore uses these endorsements to lobby Congress for NAFTA's passage.

1993: Al Gore debates Ross Perot live on CNN. Gore's strong performance and Perot's meltdown changed the dynamic of the NAFTA debate. The pact passed the House 234-200. (ontheissues.org, Inventing Al Gore, p.283-5 Mar 3, 2000)

(I can quote you a book passage stating Al Gore asked Clinton to put him in charge of NAFTA during the '92 campaign if you want me to.)

[Bread and Circus]

42. I'm sorry, who was Gore working for? Clinton, oh yeah... that's right.

I love how the Clinton Dittoheads try to pawn off everything on everybody else whenever anything is bad but try to take ALL the glory for the economic boom (aka bubble) of the 90's.

[wyldwolf]

43. I'm sorry, before '93 only himself (that was when he came out for NAFTA)

:rofl:

Next.

[wyldwolf]

38. psst. Ever think it could have been THIS way...?

NAFTA is cooked up by Bush I.... Clinton fast tracks it and Gore, who still supported as late as summer 2006, wanted to be the guy who worked on it in the Clinton admin? Ya think? Well, that WAS how it happened! :eyes:

Oh and one more thing, Gore's not running so why the fuck are you trying to slime him?

1. The author quoted in the OP brought up Gore.
2. Point out facts ain't sliming.

[joeybee12]

32. Al Gore ran in 1988 (I believe) saying he was the most conservative

Democrat on the ticket...no, he trumpeted it. Not everything he's done is ok in my book, although he seems to have changed...and that cange started when he becamse Clinton's running mate.

[Bread and Circus]

36. Well if we are going back decades, let's go back to when Hillary was a Republican

[wyldwolf]

40. ...or when Bobby Kennedy worked for McCarthy? Or when Howard Dean called himself a conservative?

...or win Dennis Kucinich used racial stereotypes in campaign material against his black opponent?

[Bread and Circus]

41. exactly!

[maddiejoan]

18. I think Hillary is more likeable

But then likeability is subjective.

:shrug:

I also think Hillary is better on paper.

[Bread and Circus]

24. Hillary is about as likeable to most people as that movie, Amelie

...not very

Likeability may be subjective but it is is also predictable.

More people are going to like eating ice cream than rotten tomatoes.

[maddiejoan]

27. You can slam Hillary all you like

But when you slam Amelie --then by god --you have gone too far!

[Bread and Circus]

33. :) I liked Amelie, actually

[Rock_Garden]

4. We need a policy wonk to exorcise each and every demon that Bush has conjured.

[Evergreen Emerald]

5. There is certainly a double standard here

I do not understand the attraction to Obama. Other than charisma (which, I have to tell you, has not affected me) he is empty.

And for some reason, he is getting a free pass.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

14. free pass ?

from whom? there have been tons of negative email chains and MSM articles about him. he gets skewered on this forum daily, which, as much as I hate it at times, is a good thing. we need to probe our candidates as much as possible.

[Forkboy]

6. This "progressive" doesn't like either of them.

[Blue_In_AK]

21. Ditto. n/t

[Stop Cornyn]

45. Ditto. Ditto

[Cameron27]

9. What culture factors can't we ignore,

and why aren't some of these fears irrational?

[sniffa]

10. thank god i'm not a progressive

i'm a liberal. they both suck.

now, off to read the other 500 threads about the only 2 candidates running, and the nasty bits inside them.

[DrFunkenstein]

11. Obama's Language Embraces Vs. Clinton's Policies? I'll Take

Someone who helps conservatives understand that liberal ideas are common sense by speaking their language, not someone who tosses progressive principles out the window with triangulating policies.

[Cameron27]

12. Sorry, Sen. Obama knows the art

of triangulation himself.

[Tellurian]

15. Yes, and anyone who compliments the Federalist Judge Scalia is unsuitable for this presidency..

[William769]

13. K&R!

[ulysses]

29. "love"? no.

I consider him marginally more appealing as a candidate than Clinton, which isn't saying all that much.

[sniffa]

30. indeed

i'm appalled to see anyone claiming to be a lefty supporting her.
Obama's no prize himself, and he's pretty much dead to me, but i will admit he's better than her.

[MasonJar]

31. This argument is untenable at best. We have fine candidates; the GOPers

do NOT. And that is PERIOD!!!! Why must we constantly demean our democratic presidential stars. They are all wonderful and will beat the ________ out of any PUG running, but especially the regime we have suffered through for almost 8 long and miserable years: Bush/Cheney, the cabal supreme. Now it appears that W's dad as the director of the CIA was a real bad actor; no wonder Georgie would not let the records out. Let us concentrate on removing the GOPers. They are killing the country, the environment and the world. THEY MUST GO!!!! No more a__hole judges! No more tax breaks for the wealthiest, the sensible of whom do not even want these benefits at the detriment of society and the planet. You dems choose; I will work unceasingly to see your choice is elected; however, in turn if my favorite is not yours and she/he wins then I expect the same committment from you. The Supreme Court and thus the country cannot survive another Pug pres; the world is also looking for relief from our obnoxious behavior. If we do NOT get this election right, I hope they impose it on us. The US official position at the Bali Earth Summit is embarrassing and unresponsive to the needs of the planet Earth. This is no longer just another attempt to stop the neo-cons; this is an entire environment in desperate peril. THIS IS THE MOST SIGNIFICANT ELECTION IN US HISTORY.

[AX10]

44. "Progressives" will give their annointed one a free...

pass.

[ingac70]

46. Neither Hillary nor Obama deserve to be Pres. n/t.