Did the meme about 'change' switch from Obama to Clinton?

[babylonsister]

If so, why and how, or are you buying it?

[snowbear]

1. Haven't you heard?

She's a change agent..

[babylonsister]

4. She's DLC and I dislike the fact that she claims she's

the 'change' agent, cause she isn't. She's the corporatist/DLCer, despite how anyone tries to fix it.

[sniffa]

27. she's a CHANGENT

new word. :woohoo:

[ElizabethDC]

2. She'd been using the "strength + experience = change" thing since at least this summer

maybe before. I think all the candidates want to convey some kind of change message, given the current occupant of the WH.

[Stephanie]

9. She's always gotta have it both ways.

Now she the one with experience, but she's a new, fresh face! She's spent the last 17 years in Washington, but she's`the one who's going to change it, even though she hasn't yet. She's an insider, but she's an outsider! I've never seen an issue that she didn't take both sides of including herself!

[OHdem10]

3. All along Hilary has said one needs experience to make

create of effect real change. In fact she made a comment
similar to this in some early debates -- the implication
being she would be a better agent of change.

A few reporters pointed this out early on but not many
and it was not given much play.

[Stop Cornyn]

5. Neither has a record which promises any real expectation of change. I like Obama, but the idea that

he'd offer any meaningful change (i.e., he do anything different than Hillary or different from what Bill did) is just not inferable from his record. If we can't elect Kucinich or at least Edwards, Obama would be fine, but he'd be Clinton 2.0.

[sandnsea]

7. Check his record closer

He passed real racial profiling and death penalty reforms in Illinois. He stands up against the unfair mandatory sentencing laws and calls them racist, some of which Bill Clinton signed. He has said if he were starting from scratch, he'd probably prefer a single payer health care system. He made a priority of getting involved in weapons reduction. He most certainly is not Clinton 2.0 and it's a real shame people haven't bothered to take the time to look at what he's really done and not what his opponents have put out there.

[babylonsister]

8. 3 words. I LOVE you!

There are some real stars on DU, and when I agree with you, you're one of them. Thanks for not just this one, but all of your thoughtful posts. But more importantly, for being objective instead of reactive, as I tend to be.

[sandnsea]

10. Well when I agree with you

you're a real star too. :rofl:

And me, not reactive??? Okay, that gave me a laugh.

Thanks, and back at ya', you know that. :hug:

[Stop Cornyn]

14. I was a big fan of Obama's, I'm still a fan, but I hated "The Audacity of Hope." Here are some other

reasons I have been let down by Obama:

Heath care

Immigration

Protecting the middle class

Sabre rattling over terrorists

This is from Obama own Senate website:

Moderate approach

He chose a half-dozen or so mostly noncontroversial topics on which to carve a niche. And on those issues - which range from the government's preparedness for avian flu to destroying weapons stockpiles in the former Soviet Union - he has mostly crafted a moderate stance, often working closely with a Republican colleague.

He went to Russia and the Ukraine with Sen. Richard Lugar, R- Ind., to inspect weapons storage sites. He teamed up with Sen. Mel Martinez, R-Fla., to offer a "sensible center" proposal on the divisive issue of immigration reform.

And he joined Sen. Coburn on Katrina, where he generated considerable attention by visiting New Orleans and wading into the debate over whether the slow response was driven by racism. (That accusation, he said at the time, was "too simplistic," although he took the Bush administration to task more broadly for its policies toward the poor.)

Since then, Obama has focused his follow-up efforts on being a government watchdog as the Federal Emergency Management Agency doles out billions of dollars in reconstruction money.

He and Coburn called for a chief financial officer to oversee all the spending. Their proposal has stalled, but the two senators have continued to pound on FEMA in public and private on the issue.

Obama said his interests converged with those of Coburn, the conservative Republican. "Tom and I may not agree how money should always be spent, but we can agree that money should not be wasted," he said. "When you're allocating huge sums of money that's vanishing in no-bid contracts, that's hurting poor people as well as the taxpayers."

Obama's approach has mostly earned him rave reviews - from Republicans and Democrats alike - who say he is an open-minded, deliberative lawmaker.

Coburn called him a "phenomenal young man who will go to great heights," while Martinez said he hasn't seemed "dogmatic" or "ideologically driven" on any issue.

Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz. and a frequent maverick within the GOP, said: "He's very impressive, he's thoughtful, he's centrist."

Cautious on Iraq

Obama's voting record shows fewer signs of independence. He supported a GOP-backed bill to impose new limits on class-action lawsuits and also said yes to Condoleezza Rice's confirmation for secretary of state, even as some of his Democratic colleagues used that vote to object to the Bush administration's Iraq war policy. But he has otherwise mostly voted with his fellow Democrats.

Obama also has taken a cautious tack on Iraq. He campaigned strongly against the war last year, and many expected him to be a forceful voice on the subject.

But Obama waded into the fray over Iraq after there was already a deafening drumbeat of criticism from both Democrats and Republicans of the administration's conduct of the war. And his speech offered little new; his call for a phased draw-down of troops, for example, had already been bandied about by Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., and others.

"The war has been a big challenge" for him, said Ronald Walters, a political science professor at the University of Maryland. "Because he comes from a community that is opposed to the war, and from a caucus that has mixed views . . . he has to be careful." His stance is "symptomatic of his moderation," said Walters.

Walters sees such positions as politically smart, and he sees Obama as part of a "new generation" of African-American leaders who are "less strident, less demanding, less militant."

Obama said his view on the war has been consistent. He thought it was wrong to get in but that now the United States has a responsibility to see the conflict through, which is why he doesn't support a quick withdrawal. Obama said he doesn't think he's being too cautious - on Iraq or anything else.

His allies and several outside observers agree. Mooney, the University of Illinois professor, said it would be more out of character for Obama to strike a hard line than to craft moderate policies as he's doing.

"I don't see him doing anything different than he did in the state house," Mooney said. "He's not a knee-jerk ideologue."

In his short time in the Senate, Obama has moved well to the center since his liberal days before he was a national figure.

I'm not saying Obama isn't a great guy, but he seems a bit moderate for my taste.

[sandnsea]

15. regurgitated hit pieces

He's not far enough left, and yet you bash him for opposing immigrant discrimination. You quote some stupid nothing institute about the middle class, which is really about the upper class. You quote another distortion on his Pakistan and terrorism comments. You've done nothing but go out and cherry-pick a bunch of hit pieces. Most of us have been around the block a time or two, you're going to have to do a whole lot better than that.

[Stop Cornyn]

16. Regurgitated? I wrote it myself. Hit piece? Because I find Obama too moderate? Whatever ... back to

hit pieces between Hillary and Obama about who's campaigning dirty and who inhaled what -- I thought there might possibly be room for a substantive discussion of policy -- I'll take to GD.

[sandnsea]

17. You wrote all those articles? n/t

[Stop Cornyn]

18. EXCELLENT POINT! You won me over.

[sandnsea]

19. garbage in, garbage out

If you're basing your opinion on garbage, then there's nothing to debate.

[Stop Cornyn]

20. Fine. You win. Obama is a bed-wetting bleeding-heart liberal

who just happens to have a worse health care plan than Kucinich, Edwards, and Hillary, and who happens to oppose gay marriage while inviting anti-gay bigots to share his state at campaign events, and who supported Bush's 2005 energy bill which many Democrats opposed, etc. That works for me.

[sandnsea]

21. Not exactly

His insurance plan actually puts mandates on the insurance companies, not the people. His church performs gay marriages. Durbin, Levin and Stabenow also voted for that Energy Bill, so it isn't as if Obama was all alone on his vote.

If you want to look for reasons to hate somebody, you will find them.

[Stop Cornyn]

22. Which part of "I'm still a fan" and "I'm not saying Obama isn't a great guy" most effectively

conveyed the part where now I "hate" Obama because he's only my third preference for president?

[sandnsea]

23. Oh well that changes everything

:eyes: I will never understand why people do that. You post a slew of garbage to justify your viewpoint, then pick out a word and run off on a completely different tangent. Anyway, now that you know that you've based your "disappointment" on garbage, you can get back in full fan mode.

[babylonsister]

26. I'm going with my gut, and my gut tells me

different. I haven't had hope in a long while, and I get that from Obama. Anyone elected will be a big change from the current criminals, but to me, Obama provides me hope with that change.

And my gut is winning this one.

[TwilightZone]

6. Any of our candidates would be a significant change from the current administration.

Besides, is the "change" label only allowed to be applied to one of our candidates at a time?

Maybe it's like tag. Welcome to elementary school.

[babylonsister]

11. Baloney. Obama used it for his campaign, Clinton embraced it.

You're right. It's only a word, but it means a lot of different things to different people, and in my book, Clinton isn't one of them. She's 'establishment', he's 'change'.

[Stephanie]

12. Or stole it.

I dunno.

[babylonsister]

13. Yes, she did. nt

[earthlover]

24. Hillary's emphasis on change changed when polls in Iowa showed people prefered change to experience

Imagine that!

[babylonsister]

25. No way! Not Saint Hillary!

:hi:

[proudmoddemo]

28. She's a Chamelon N/T