Lets do this once and for all: The word "Shrill" is not sexist

[Joe the Revelator]

Definitions of shrill on the Web:

* piercing: having or emitting a high-pitched and sharp tone or tones ; "piercing screams"; "a shrill whistle"; " a shrill gaiety"
* strident: being sharply insistent on being heard; "strident demands"; "shrill criticism"
Shrillness denotes the harsh, strident quality a sound has. Some instruments, like the piccolo have a shrillness in the upper register; thus notes there are mostly used for ornamentation. In the human voice, shrillness relates to the degree in which a vocal sounds like a scream. ...


None of those definitions apply only to woman or are derogatory. Hillary has a shrill voice. I know a number of women who do not.

I have a Shelti, his bark is very shrill.

Hillary's voice is shrill. It is the best adjective I, and many others, know to describe. I will not be afraid to use the english language because some people have decided to vilify a perfectly acceptable word.

[Evergreen Emerald]

1. It is absolutely sexist

Your definition does not account for the use if it in our society.

[Joe the Revelator]

2. Give me some examples of clear sexism surrounding the word.

It's an adjective. It would be like saying a man has a booming voice or even a whiney voice. Would I take offense to that based on sexism? Of course not.

[Evergreen Emerald]

10. No, it is different than your examples.

It has been historically used to demean women. Instead of talking about issues or concerns with the person, they reduce her to nothing more than her physical attributes. Her looks, her sound, her clothes. "Shrill" is used to demean and belittle the female.

[Joe the Revelator]

14. Ok give me examples. If its "historically" been used this shouldn't be so hard.

[Evergreen Emerald]

20. I just did.

[Joe the Revelator]

24. Telling me your opinion of why you think the word is sexist is not the same as giving real examples

Thanks for playing.

[Evergreen Emerald]

30. CONTEXT

a noose by itself is not racist--lots of people use nooses. But, hung outside a black man's house it takes on new meaning.

Using the word Shrill is HISTORICALLY used to demean women--to put them in their place to reduce them to physical attributes.

It is CONTEXT. Get it?

[Joe the Revelator]

33. When has it "historically" been used to denigrate woman?

Thats what I'm asking you to prove. You have assinged meaning to a common adjective to further your agenda. It's disgusting.

[Evergreen Emerald]

39. ohmygod...

I am sorry. I cannot give you every board room, every election, every attempt at women to break the glass ceiling and to be confronted with Shrill / or fat ankles


Just as I cannot give you specific examples of the use of "uppity" or "articulate" used to describe African Americans.

This is cultural. For you not to know this, is amazing to me.

[Joe the Revelator]

43. Your using a boogyman in a closet, that you have no examples of, as the basis of your opinion..

its not out of line to ask you to back that up.

[Evergreen Emerald]

46. You obviously choose to be ignorant on the matter

you want proof: educate yourself. Get a book on American culture and language. Get a book on how woman have been held back and demeaned over the centuries.

[Joe the Revelator]

53. Yes, because of the word shrill, woman have always been denegrated

We've broken the case colombo. 200 years of American sexism boiled down to one word. Thank god we had this conversation.

[Evergreen Emerald]

59. That is not what I am saying.

Language is one way to attempt to denigrate women. But there is alot more than just language--or just one word...But shrill is certainly in the arsenal.

[Joe the Revelator]

63. See, I think its just a convenient, ambiguous word, that you've latched on to to deflect valid

criticism from Hillary. But thats just me.

[Evergreen Emerald]

65. You can choose to remain ignorant on the subject, or learn from

the well learned people on DU.

[noamnety]

73. I think if you check the OP's profile

you'll understand why it is they are blissfully unaware of this.

"I don't find it sexist, I have no clue what you are talking about. This doesn't match MY experience ... therefore you are wrong."

The OP is clearly in a better position to determine what is demeaning to women just as white people are the best authorities to determine that something isn't offensive to people of color. :D

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

80. Here's how it's sexist

Please tell me the adjectives that the press uses to describe the voices of the other candidates?

Oh wait, the other candidates do not have adjectives described to their voices? Or only "positive" ones?

I'll wait for the list of adjectives.

[spooky3]

96. you got it - and are any male voices or behavior

described as "shrill"? In fact, Clinton has a relatively low voice for a woman, which makes it even clearer how sexist "shrill" is.

Many DUer women who are professionals have been dismissed with words like this; we recognize it when we see it.

[Maven]

110. Bingo. nt

[KittyWampus]

3. No, it's not. I googled the word this morning. PLENTY of hits referring to men and groups.

True, it's NEGATIVE. But it's not sexist as it's not used exclusively for women and thus not sexist.

[Fovea]

22. Does not follow

that because something is not *exclusively* used to denigrate women, that it is not sexist.

That is like you not minding that I have a 12ga. barrel stuck up your nose, once I explain
that it is loaded with birdshot.

[KittyWampus]

109. the word isn't used exclusively for women and it doesn't denote women.

And your analogy is a nonsequitor.

The word is used as a NEGATIVE.

The only way you can make it sexist is if you want to say ALL negative word usage is by extension sexist/associated with femininity.

[Fovea]

115. And its connotation?

What say on that?

As I said in another post, the association with shrillness as practiced as a stratagem against men is documented all the way back to the Canterbury Tales and the Wife of Bath's prologue.

It is as though calling an African American a 'boy' is not a racial slur because you use the same term for pre-pubescent whites.

And my previous example was not a non-sequitor, you just didn't understand it. My hypothetical shotgun is a negative. The fact that you are not a bird, in no way diminishes that I have the barrel up your nostril, making it an instrument of assault, and assault is a thing you cannot do to a bird, per se.

But again, the key is whether you have adequately described a term by simply giving its denotation.

[cosmik debris]

4. Please share your definition with us. n/t

[cosmik debris]

49. Asking nicely got me nowhere

Perhaps if I was as shrill as the other debaters I would have gotten a response.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

9. Yep. One the most intriguing aspect of Sen Clinton's run is the deep roots of

sexism being exposed. I'm seeing it personally with quite a few men, and a few women (!), whom I know and seeing it pop up all over the corporomedia and even here, on our usually more enlightened message board.

It's fascinating and a bit discouraging and hopefully a step forward to further discuss those deep seeded POV's. MKJ

[Evergreen Emerald]

18. I was astounded to see such sexism on a progressive board

But the more I am exposed to the people here, the more I understand it. It is very disappointing.

I truly believe that the main reason there is so much emotion surrounding Clinton is the sexism. And of course people will deny it, but it is there. It is insidious and rampant in our culture.

And more accepted than racism. Not one person could get away with anything racist about Richardson or Obama--but everyone piles on with the sexist comments of Clinton.

No wonder America is spinning down the porcelain bowl.

[AllieB]

16. 99% of the time it is used in refereance to women

Mitt Romney used it in reference to his opponent, Shannon O'Brien, in the 2002 election. No one ever doubted that it was meant to be sexist and demeaning.

[Armstead]

94. They used to call Howard Dean "shrill"

[hlthe2b]

95. Yes.... RWers trying to emasculate him....

Which is what they do to liberal progressive men, since so many still buy into the notion that to be feminine is somewhat to be less worthy, to be sensitive or value others -- is to be less than masculine.

[hlthe2b]

5. Yeah, sure it isn't

:sarcasm:

Get a clue or maybe wake up to how it is used in society to denigrate women, NOT men.

[Joe the Revelator]

7. Show me some of examples of the word used to denigrate women....

and not used as an adjective to describe someone with a high pitched voice.

[hlthe2b]

19. Those who persist in using terms that stereotype or denigrate

based on gender, race, or sexual orientation, rarely can be persuaded otherwise, I've found. See previous discussions of the word "cackle" on this board and elsewhere. Not worth my time...

[Joe the Revelator]

29. So what you're really saying is that you can't back up your point.

Thanks for playing, join evergreen in the consolation room. Anyone else who can't back up their stance will be joining you.

[hlthe2b]

35. Abusive replies to me & others won't cut it... I have done so in other

postings on this thread if you are courteous enough to read...

[Joe the Revelator]

47. I've read every response to this thread. You havn't backed up your point.

And absusive replies? Quit being a baby.

[hlthe2b]

74. That mirror on your wall...

don't let that reflected image scare you....:eyes:

[noamnety]

86. Wow.

Here we have a man telling a woman to quit "being a baby" - in response to a woman stating that something is sexist.

[hlthe2b]

91. and we thought it was just RWers who were so "irony-challenged"

:eyes:

[Fovea]

106. The conceit that a woman's voice when upset is

unbearable to men goes back as far as Chaucer's wife of Bath.

[KittyWampus]

17. So after I post some hits on google, you'll admit you're wrong?

Discounting the many hits that are defining the word shrill, the first several pages yield:

Paul Krugman > shrill
Bible-thumpers > shrill
Campaign (in India) > goes shrill
navy Sonar >shrill
Ralph Smith > shrill
Robert Rubin (written by Paul Krugman,btw) > shrill

It took me about 3 pages to get to a mention of a woman being shrill.

[hlthe2b]

23. Hardly.. Those men upon whom it is used are almost uniformly

being accused of being effeminate and the word shrill is meant to emasculate. I find it often used against gay men as well, where the "feminine attributes" they supposedly possess has long been used in homophobia campaigns. That it is a double slam against women, is all the more the point. It amazes me that supposed liberal progressives don't see that.

[KittyWampus]

111. Paul Krugman is trying to say Robert Rubin is effeminate? Not likely. The word is NEGATIVEE

and that is all.

Unless you want to say that all negative word usage is by extension sexist, you've no argument.

[Fovea]

117. are you aware of the meaning of the term taxonomy?

Among the genus insult(negativee?) are the species
RacialTauntus
GenderDenegrationii
AdHominumIgnoramus
AdHominumPervertii
AdHominumPharma
EvilDoii

And all of these specific species have their own insults both denoted terms, and terms that connote a pejorative. Krugman might have decided to call Nancy Pelosi an Uncle Tom, but that fact would in no way remove the association between that term and African Americans.

[hlthe2b]

121. It seems, CS that your argument is in the extreme minority...

Few here are buying it...

[jefferson_dem]

6. You are correct. That word is not sexist, in my view.

n/t

[zabet]

8. Why not just say

her voice is irritating to
you, it grates on your nerves,
her voice is like fingernails
on a chalkboard? Plenty of other
ways to say it and still convey
the point you are trying to make.
Political correctness aside, if
if bothers enough of the members of
DU and you have any respect for the
members of this community, you should
attempt to state your opinion in ways
that will not be considered sexist or
inflammatory.
Just for the record I am not a Hillary
supporter.

[Joe the Revelator]

12. Because "shrill" is perfectly acceptable, concise adjective

Why should I be afraid to use the language because of a minority of people being overly sensitive to a word that has no sexist undertones?

[zabet]

25. It is acceptable and

you should not be afraid to use
it. I personally have no problem
with you using it. I choose not to
on DU because it bothers some of the
other members. It is no skin off of
my nose to show a little respect to
my fellow DUers in this way.

[slackmaster]

69. Oh, you mean like Randi Rhodes?

I get really TIRED of her rising inFLECTION when she starts getting STRIDENT.

[zulchzulu]

11. It depends on the soundbite, but I certainly have found that to be the case...

shrill (shrl)
adj. shrill·er, shrill·est
1. High-pitched and piercing in tone or sound: the shrill wail of a siren.
2. Producing a sharp, high-pitched tone or sound: a shrill fife.
3. Sharp or keen to the senses; harshly vivid: shrill colors.
v. shrilled, shrill·ing, shrills
v.tr.
To utter in a shrill manner; scream.
v.intr.
To produce a shrill cry or sound.

It is not "sexist", it is a characteristic of a sound.

[Joe the Revelator]

15. "Charateristic of a sound"

exactly.

[Fovea]

13. Both you and the first commentor are correct

Depending on whether the denotative value or connotative value of the term is being employed- which of course is a contextual call on the part of the recipient.

Bastard, after all is a term of art if referring to the fact that I don't know who my biological father is.
Call me that in a bar, and I suggest you run.

[Tom Rinaldo]

34. "A shrill voice". A potent phrase...

Shrill is not intrinsicly sexist. It is used instead of strident in some contexts. But it is important to start by understanding that "shrill" almost always carries a significant negative emotional association with it, it is virtually never positive. And factor in that "shrill" noises are literally high pitched and that most female voices are higher pitched than male voices. But you can't stop making associations there. The phrase "a shrill voice" is often used to negatively characterize the content of the message that a participant in a public debate broadcasts. So if a writer chooses to say that Hillary Clinton literally has "a shrill voice" it is hard to blindly accept that that writer at least subconsciously is not evoking a negative political archetype. And in fact there is a history of just that type of negative sexist double entendre being used against women when they, quite literally as well as figuratively, "speak up".

[Fovea]

50. Further

Compare Clinton's speaking voice to say, Pelosi's.
I don't find her voice shrill, and I generally don't agree with what she is saying.

OTOH, I played flute and sopranino recorder, and I didn't like hearing the term applied to my instrument
depite that the fact that they made our cat's eyes water.

Note that while stentorian, a term denoting a too loud for conversational voice is mildly pejorative,
it is not as loaded as shrill. And is loaded differently, suggesting a voice that is more forceful, and used in a more effectual way than shrill.

The terms hot and cold are sometimes used by writing instructors signify this loading, but I think color terms might work better, being less manichean and more multi-axis descriptors.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

26. bullshit. It's sexist alright. n/t

[Joe the Revelator]

37. No it's not.

I'll give you just as much substance as you give me.

[cali]

57. sure it is. And there's an excellent post that explains why on this thread

The poster explains that it's akin to using the word "uppity" about a black person.

[C_U_L8R]

27. by the same linear logic, the word 'uppity' is not racist

sorry but language does not work in the nice neat formula proposed here.
Words carry strong inferences and emotional meanings... and both parties
use them to great effect. "shrill" as the republicans use it connotes "bitch".
which in turn implies all sorts of other imagery and reactions.
Communication is not made up of definitions, but rather, messages.

[cali]

31. thank you!

thank you for providing the proper context. And let's face it, the use of "shrill" to describe Clinton, right here on DU is often used to connote bitch as well.

[Evergreen Emerald]

32. exactly.

[TwilightZone]

54. Excellent comparison.

Of course, the meaning of language is all about context and intent. In many cases, the people using "shrill" in reference to Hillary are intending it to be gender-identifying.

[Occam Bandage]

62. Excellently said. Kudos, five stars, A+++ WOULD BUY FROM AGAIN.

[Cameron27]

85. Exactly

[nashville_brook]

88. we have a winner.

[Maven]

112. Well done.

[KittyWampus]

113. Just googled 'uppity' and it's used for women and blacks BY women and blacks

So it was used as a slur and NOT just a negative.

And blacks and women took the word and reversed the spin.

However, I found NO usages in the first several pages where the word was race or gender neutral.

UNLIKE THE WORD SHRILL.

[BadgerKid]

28. self erase

[Triana]

36. Of course not, it's just used ALL THE TIME to describe outspoken women..

...that's all.

Of course WORDS are not sexist. ATTITUDES are -- and when particular WORDS are consistently used to illustrate those attitudes, then the words by association can be termed "sexist". But no, the WORD isn't sexist. The ATTITUDE behind its consistent use to describe women IS sexist, though.

The problem is the ATTITUDES behind these words which cause them to be consistently used the way they are, not with the words themselves. It's how and when they're USED that is the problem.

Trying to detract from the ISSUE by arguing about the WORDS used, is just - well, a distraction.

And there's a word for this type of attempted distraction tactic: crazymaking

Have you been taking lessons from Republicans? This is one of their ruses. I'm surprised (well, maybe NOT) to see it used so often on DU.

[noamnety]

38. It just refers to a high pitched voice.

Of course the fact that women's voices are higher pitched - and thus more likely to be viewed as shrill ... just coincidence, right? ;)

And the fact that we hear those tones as annoying ... well, that's just coincidence, too, right? It's nothing to do with us being conditioned to view low men's voices as authoritative, calming, etc., and being conditioned to view women's voices as annoying, when they are speaking loudly to be heard above a crowd. Nothing to do with us being conditioned to have a negative reaction to women in authority.

So we have this word that refers to a quality that is associated with women's voices, high pitched = shrill, and now it's morphed into also meaning overly emotional obsessive harping on a single subject/nagging (another negative stereotype associated with women). When someone writes that Paul Krugman is shrill, they don't mean that his voice is high pitched. They mean he is acting in a way they perceive as being associated with all those other negative behaviors that people with shrill voices (women) display.

If you approve of a person's message, you describe them in terms used typically to make them sound masculine: impassioned, persistent. If you are trying to give a negative impression of the same person, you flip those words into qualities that are associated with women: hysterical, shrill.

The fact that we use sexist terms to put down men doesn't mean those terms aren't sexist. It just means that as a culture we've learned to insult men by implying they are feminine.

[Onlooker]

40. How does the media describe mens voices?

Words like shrill and cackling are regularly used with Hillary, as if they're relevant to who she is as a politician. If they're not sexist, then what are similar words used against men? Hillary is being judged as woman because her voice is higher, her laugh is higher -- and sexist terms are being applied. Shrill is sexist.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

41. Guliani has an incredibly annoying, whiny and nasal voice.

I never hear anyone in the media, with the exception of comedy shows like SNL and the Stephanie Miller show on AAR, making an issue of it.

[incapsulated]

105. BINGO. They don't.

No matter how annoying, mens voices are rarely commented on.

This is sexist because any woman who "speaks out" in public is subject to this shit, there is an underlying hostility coming through.

[KittyWampus]

114. Sorry, just found Guiliani called shrill- editorial on Huffington Post

"At the South Carolina GOP debate the other night, Rudy Giuliani's shrill response to Texas Congressman Ron Paul over the war in Iraq made me wonder if America's Mayor wasn't going to break down and cry right there."

[incapsulated]

119. Is is a constant complaint?

I'm sure I can find occasional examples of anything, we are talking about what has become a standard criticism in the MSM by now.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. You Can Use All The Sexist Imagery You Want...You Can't Demand That Enlightened Folks Approve Of It

Rush doesn't care when he calls female reporters "news babes" or feminists "feminazis" so why should you be concerned?

Go for it...

[sniffa]

44. but is the salutation "Mrs." sexist?

priorities people.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. We already determined it is, little sniffa

Ergo:


When you google the word "Miss," the first page includes entries such as Miss Universe, Miss World, Miss America, Miss 60, Miss Saigon…yet when you google "Mrs." Or "Ms.," you do not get any beauty pageant entries at all. As a matter of fact, instead of Miss Universe, you get Mrs. Field's cookies! At a right-wing Christian website called "Fathers for Life," a writer laments, "You can not refer to a woman by the color of her hair. You can not use Mrs. Or Miss. The indistinguishable Ms. is to replace both." It is interesting who wants gender neutral language and who doesn't. And why.

http://users.resist.ca/~kirstena/pagemissmsmrs.html

[sniffa]

58. oh right

my bad, little DSB.

[Elspeth]

45. "High pitched" describes the female voice, in comparison to males, and shrill is GENDERED

as insults go.

[MethuenProgressive]

51. More sexist negativity from ObamaNation.

:puke:

[rucky]

52. Google "Kucinich shrill"

and see how often it's used to describe his voice.

[Tom Rinaldo]

56. How often has it been implied that Kucinich isn't "manly" enough to be President do you figure? n/t

[rucky]

97. Good point. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

55. This is absolutely too good to pass up:

[Joe the Revelator]

60. HA!

:clap:

[cali]

61. Great find, but I guarantee you the OP will sitll stick to his sexist crap n/t

[Joe the Revelator]

64. I don't get your post. What does one have to do with the other?

[Madam Mossfern]

71. I am certainly not a Hillary supporter

and she is just about on the bottom of my list. But...I must say that the use of the word "shrill" attached to her definately has a sexist tone. It's important to stick to the issues. I just think she's downright nasty at times.

[slackmaster]

102. But if people just stuck to issues rather than appearance, style, personality, jewelry, etc.

There wouldn't be nearly as much fun stuff to argue about.

[hlthe2b]

72. re: you don't get it....Somehow, I doubt many of us are surprised..

[Occam Bandage]

66. I'm sure. And it's interesting, because

no matter what you believe, you can appreciate that. If you believe the word is valid, the humor is obvious.

If you believe the word is sexist, you think, "Hey, look, the right slanders her (and her alone) with that sexist shit so often, Newsmax has actually made it one of their AdWords to lure anti-Clinton people to their site."

[bunnies]

67. !

:spray: :spank:

[sniffa]

68. pfft

:rofl:

[polichick]

70. Not counting Shelties, when was the last time any of us heard a male described as shrill??

[slackmaster]

75. Google "shrill Republican" - and besides Mary Matlin you will find several on the first page

Tim Pawlenty, Paul Craig Roberts, etc. Also descriptions of Republican ads as "shrill".

[polichick]

76. Maybe so, but in everyday life people don't call men shrill. nt

[slackmaster]

77. I have done so many times

Like the aforementioned Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, etc. All shrill. All men.

[polichick]

79. Well, you're nicer than I am...

I just call them pricks! :)

(Let's start a thread about that word ~ it ain't sexist, is it?)

[noamnety]

83. And do you think they are actually referring to those men's voices?

or do you think they are saying they fit highly gendered negative stereotypes of women?

How are they using "shrill" in those cases?

[Occam Bandage]

92. It's an attempt at emasculation. nt

[slackmaster]

101. Yes, I do believe shrill is an objectively accurate description of Rush's voice

Especially when he goes off on one of his high-pitched rants about liberals or whatever.

[KaptBunnyPants]

120. It's used as a slur for "whiney".

Which is a tone thing, so I suppose it is to do with their voices but also the content of what they say.

[KaptBunnyPants]

118. Paul Krugman.

[Enrique]

78. bitch isn't sexist either

it just means a female dog.

[slackmaster]

87. Good example, showing that context is essential

:hi:

[MethuenProgressive]

81. Lets do this once and for all: The word "Colored" is not racist.

Unless you use it that way.

[Tom Rinaldo]

82. And "shuffle" is a desciptive term. n/t

[joeybee12]

84. A pathetic, sexist post....

...shame on you...and double shame for trying to rationalize this.

[noamnety]

89. Thanks for being so blunt.

It's bad to use sexist or racist language out of ignorance. It's far worse to try to rationalize it after being confronted by its use - especially as a member of a privileged class using a word that demeans those in an oppressed class.

I guess women are too stupid to know that it's not a word that's been used to demean and belittle us as women. Good thing we have the OP, a man, to come to our rescue and let us know we've interpreted our own history and experiences incorrectly.

[hlthe2b]

93. .....

:thumbsup:

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

90. Have a look here

and hear the crickets chirping.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2478175

You said, "Hillary's voice is shrill. It is the best adjective I, and many others, know to describe."

So how do you describe the voices of other candidates?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

98. He edited his response six minutes after you posted the link. No surprise. He's revealed himself

here in this thread, though.

MKJ

[IndianaJones]

99. just like "you" nt.

[slackmaster]

100. Someone whose female champion you have tarred as shrill may call you sexist

Feigning indignity in an attempt to discredit you as insensitive or bigoted, when in reality they're reacting only because you have insulted someone they admire or support.

Nobody is going to call you sexist on DU for calling Phyllis Schlafly shrill.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

103. Actually, you don't know DU very well, then. With Coulter and Malkin, for instance,

there are many of us who will ask posters to desist from using anti-female pejoratives when discussing their hate filled statements.

MKJ

[slackmaster]

104. I've never observed that but will take your word for it that we have some ideological purists

I generally steer clear of discussions consisting only of weak responses to weaker attacks on peoples' personal traits.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

107. Asking people to stop calling women anti-female names is ideological purity?

Whether it's a RW or progressive woman? MKJ

[slackmaster]

108. I didn't mean it perjoratively

I meant to say people who are true to their ideology, rather than invoking it only when it suits a particular situation.

I think someone who care strongly about the sexism in calling a woman shrill, will react the same whether the subject of the slur was Maxine Waters or Anita Bryant.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

116. What you call ideology, I call common decency which should extend across all

spectrums.

MKJ

[Nailzberg]

122. Shrill? Sexist? I cackle at the notion.

[Catherine Vincent]

123. So sayeth a Hillary Clinton-hater.

:eyes: