Which candidates will fight to count all our votes if we have another Ohio 2004 situation?

[eridani]

Edwards for sure. Also Kucinich. Biden and Dodd have shown some fight on the FISA issue, but I'm not sure of them, especially since Dodd was behind that gawdawful HAVA bill. Gravel? Not a clue one way or another.

Richardson, given his disgraceful performance in NM in 2004, definitely not. I guarantee you that Clinton and Obama will cave instantly, Clinton to protect the BFEE and Obama out of concern for "unity".

[jgraz]

1. Doesn't it suck that we can't trust our candidates to fight for the most basic of rights?

This should be a no-brainer. Before Chimpy, don't you think that ANY candidate would have fought to the ends of the earth in the face of a blatantly stolen election like 2004? Now we're not only worrying about our candidates accepting a fraudulent election, we have to worry about them pardoning war criminals, denying habeas corpus and supporting torture. How far we've fallen.

[ColbertWatcher]

2. The real question is...

...what will we do?

We are expecting it, but are we doing anything? Besides blogging about it? (http://wikiality.com/Solitarity)

Will we insure voter rolls are legit?
Will we make sure machines without paper trails are decertified?
Do we even know which states are vulnerable to republican manipulation?

And, on election night, will we demand justice with as much force as republicans will show to prevent it?

I remember the footage of the paid republican goons during the 2000 election, I always wondered where our side was. A leader certainly needs to be out there, but someone has to back them up.

In action, not just sound.

We know the train-wreck is coming. What are we going to do?

[eridani]

5. Good point. We need to start organizing on this now n/t

[ColbertWatcher]

42. Help out at this link...

...I started this on my journal, please stop by and post your ideas.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=487939&mesg_id=487939

Thank you.

[Tom Rinaldo]

3. Yeah right, "Clinton will cave instantly"

The person who on one hand gets blasted around here for supposedly having a ruthless ambition to become President is now going to "cave instantly" if someone tries to steal the office away from her. The amount of logical disconnects that go on here about Hillary Clinton is staggering. I hope I'm not the only one who sees how many of the attacks that are made on her continually contradict each other: "Hillary will do absolutely anything to win the nomination/ Hillary will roll over and play dead if the election is stolen". Uh huh.

[eridani]

4. Kerry worked pretty damned hard to get the nomination in 2004

He gave up, but Edwards wanted to fight. Can you point to any indication at all that Clinton is interested in election integrity or fighting vote suppression?

[MonkeyFunk]

7. How about this?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/03/10/voting/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Bob Graham called Wednesday for a paper trail to back up electronic voting throughout the country.

The Democratic senators told reporters a bill they have drafted calls for every jurisdiction to have machines that produce paper records that would enable recounts.

or this?

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/07/senator-clinton.html

The Senate Committee on Rules and Administration will hold a hearing in D.C. this Wednesday to discuss Senator Dianne Feinstein's Ballot Integrity Act (or S. 1487) -- the Senate bill that would federally mandate a paper trail on all voting machines, among other things. The list of witnesses invited to speak at the hearing includes Senator, and presidential-hopeful, Hillary Clinton as well as election officials.

[eridani]

15. A start--but auditability means exactly jackshit unless you actually AUDIT

And what about voter suppression?

[Tom Rinaldo]

10. Supposedly Kerry didn't think he could win that fight

Supposedly Kerry wanted to stay viable to run again in 2008. I am not saying that I buy it, but that is how the story is told by some.

Do you think Hillary Clinton will be worried about hurting her chances to run again in 2012 if she fights against a stolen election. Do you honestly think that the couple who have a damn large axe to grind after the Republicans tried to retroactively steal the 1996 Presidential Election by nullifying it through impeachment, will smile and wave if the G.O.P. tries to cheat Hillary out of the White House in 2008? Bully for John Edwards, but I would put Hilary right up there at the top of the list of people who will not let the White House be stolen from them without a fight.

I'm sorry, but I do not start with a presumption that Democratic leaders are disinterested in election integrity and vote suppression. Maybe one or another hasn't fought hard enough for it in the past, but being disinterested in losing their election because of it? Nonsense. Vote suppression by the way often targets Black communities and both Bill and Hillary have strong alliances with many Black community and church leaders. Hillary will be counting on Black turn out to win if she is our nominee.

[eridani]

16. There are some fights you have to fight even if you lose

--just because it's the right thing to do. The Clintons did nothing in 2004. Since then she's gotten on Kerry's case because of that misunderstood joke.

[Adelante]

23. Edwards has done nothing either

He's had three years to make a case for a stolen election in 2004. If he's made it, I've missed it.

[Tom Rinaldo]

27. How do you feel about the work RFK Jr has done on the stolen 2004 election?

He didn't stop at saying "we should have fought harder". Did you see the investigative piece he wrote that Rolling Stone published on it. I can go back and do a DU search if you want but I seem to recall this place exploding into ovations for the work RFK Jr did to wrip apart the cover up.

He endorsed John Ed... No wait, correct that, RFK Jr endorsed Hillary Clinton for President. He must have changed his mind about caring for the integrity of elections since everyone knows that Hillary Clinton "will cave instantly" if someone tries to steal an election from her.

[Clark2008]

29. The adverse is amazing, too.

Edwards gets a pass... yet, when actually faced with possible election fraud in 2004, he did nothing.

I know, I know, Edwards fans - he's written (later) that he lobbied Kerry to fight for the votes, but, as with anything else he's said and done, he's been known to change his mind/stretch the truth/re-write history to suit his political expediency.

[Kucinich4America]

43. Perhaps her "lethal ambition" is just to secure the nomination.

You have to admit that the actions (or rather inactions) of the DLC in 2000 and 2004 make it look like they were deliberately taking a dive both times. Some would say they did so just so Hillary could be President. But those interests which the DLC serves win either way, as long as a real Democrat isn't nominated.

[Peace Candidate]

6. Damn Good Question!

We need hand counted paper ballots before the next presidential election, before the next primary really.

I know Ron Paul's supporters are preparing to infiltrate and observe the election process, I wish we had a team assembled on our side. At the very least there should be independent exit polls taken at each precinct.

[AtomicKitten]

8. "I guarantee that ...... Obama will cave instantly."

I vote no on your OP.

[eridani]

17. He's been awfully upbeat about being nice to Repubs, no?

Will he fight them if he has to?

[Quixote1818]

9. I have been giving the Richardson thing some thought

I think the reason he shut down any investigation in New Mexico is because he was afraid they would find that some crap went down and he didn't want to look like he didn't have control of the state. He has a reputation for micro-manage everything so his ass is covered.

Thats my take anyway.

[CitizenLeft]

11. doubt that it will be Ohio, it can't happen again here...

...at least not in the same way. We have a Dem governor now.

But Florida... Florida is still the worry. That's where there might be a problem, though I thought I read that Cris is not as likely to try anything as Jeb Bush, but only Floridians can speak to that.

But for Ohio... I believe that if Ohio is lost, it'll be fair & square this time. And if it's not, we've got a Dem Sec. of State and AG who will go after fraud this time.

[eridani]

18. Cause for hope. Also Bowen in CA

The poster who said it is up to us is right, but I think that only the DNC actually has the resources to do the necessary organizing.

[Truth2Tell]

12. DK and Dodd.

The others... not so sure.

Edot to add: How could I forget Gravel! He'd claw their eyes out. :)

[eridani]

19. Dodd was great on FISA. Still waiting for him to change his mind on HAVA

He played a major role in inflicting this unauditable crappy electronic stuff on us in the first place.

[PurityOfEssence]

13. Clinton "cave instantly"? Where'd ya get that?

Even though I can't stand her, one thing that's pretty damned obvious is that she will do just about anything to win. She's got a fierce tenacity and a hunger for it, so I doubt she'd just let it go.

[eridani]

20. Depends on what Murdoch and Penn say, no? n/t

[Tom Rinaldo]

30. No. Which camp has RFK Jr backing it? n/t

[Kucinich4America]

44. We know why Bobby is endorsing Hillary.

He wants his Daddy's senate seat.

[DFW]

14. After 2000 and 2004

Any Democratic candidate who does not challenge defeat-by-fraud
didn't deserve the nomination in the first place. Besides, Howard
Dean has that high on his list of "things I hate," and will help
lead the charge if necessary--and if our campaign, whoever the
nominee is, is well-run this time, it shouldn't be necessary--
not this time.

[Perry Logan]

21. We already know Gore wouldn't.

[Adelante]

22. Obama: Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation Prevention Act

This is a press release quoted in full:

Obama Legislation Would Protect Voting Rights

Senator introduces proposal to ban 'deceptive practices'

People For the American Way President Ralph G. Neas praised Senator Barack Obama’s introduction of legislation intended to crack down on deceptive practices and bring greater accountability to the electoral process. Senator Charles Schumer is the principal cosponsor of the legislation. In response, Neas issued the following statement:

“In 2006 as in so many years before, we saw examples of unscrupulous political operatives trying to mislead and deceive voters, and attempting to hold down voter turnout for political gain. Some voters were told the date of the election had shifted. Others were told that their polling place had changed. Some were given misinformation about voter I.D. requirements. Others were the victims of inaccurate or misleading campaign flyers, or annoying robo-calls with deceptive information.

“Enough is enough. Americans deserve elections that are clean and fair. We may not be able to stop dirty tricks in campaigns, but we can make it harder for them to succeed—and we can make the consequences very serious for those who carry them out. Senator Obama’s bill is an important step forward. His Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation Prevention Act proposes strong, effective procedures to prevent deceptive practices in the future, and to ensure that the individuals responsible for such practices are held to account. Senator Obama should be commended for introducing this legislation.

“Senator Obama’s bill would criminalize egregious deceptive practices that keep voters away from the ballot box. It would provide immediate accountability before the election and encourage citizen participation by making it easier to report voter intimidation tactics and seek justice through the courts. And it would require the Attorney General to investigate every reported problem and make the findings public. The bill is an important component of the comprehensive election reform that Americans are demanding after suffering an avalanche of problems in the 2006 elections—most notably the inexplicable disappearance of 18,000 votes in a congressional race in Sarasota County, Florida.

“I encourage all senators to take a close look at this legislation, and I hope that they will recognize, as Senator Obama has, the crucial need for reforms to ensure that every American’s right to vote is protected."

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=23479

[eridani]

40. Obama is clearly on top of vote suppression

Would he fight counting irregularities?

[Adelante]

24. Obama Calls for Ouster of Justice Department Official

Washington - Senator Barack Obama said the leader of the civil rights division of the Justice Department should step down after suggesting that minority voters were not widely disenfranchised by laws requiring photo identification because many members of minorities died before reaching old age.

"This administration has shown very little interest in making sure that all people have equal access to the ballot box," Mr. Obama said in a telephone interview. "It's important for all of us to embrace the basic notion that we should try to make voting easier, not harder."

Mr. Obama, an Illinois Democrat who is seeking his party's presidential nomination, was responding to a remark made by John Tanner, the chief of the Justice Department's civil rights division. In a speech to a Latino group earlier this month in Los Angeles, Mr. Tanner said that a disproportionate share of elderly minority voters did not have identification, but added that it was not a widespread problem because of their life expectancy.

-snip

Mr. Obama, who is the only black senator, has been an advocate for voting rights issues before Congress. As a presidential candidate, while seldom speaking about race while campaigning, he has frequently called attention to minority concerns through statements from his campaign or Senate office.

In an interview Friday night, Mr. Obama urged presidential candidates from both parties to call on Mr. Tanner to be replaced. He also criticized Mr. Tanner for his recent approval of a Georgia law requiring voters to show photo identification before voting.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/102207N.shtml

[Adelante]

25. Obama stands against Bush FEC appointee over voter protection

Leading Senate Democrats, including Barack Obama (Ill.) and John Kerry (Mass.), say they will not allow a slate of nominees to the Federal Election Commission (FEC) through the Senate in the days before congressional adjournment, threatening to freeze during a presidential election year the agency tasked with policing campaigns.

If the Senate does not confirm the four-person slate in the next several days, the recess appointments of three commissioners will expire at the end of the year, leaving only two members on the commission in 2008.

As a result, the FEC would not be able to certify public funding for presidential candidates such as Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and former Sen. John Edwards (D-N.C.). Nor would it be able to investigate complaints of rule-breaking or issue advice on what tactics cross legal lines.

-snip

Obama and Kerry, as well as Sens. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.) and Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio), have placed holds on the slate because one of the nominees, Hans von Spakovsky, a GOP appointee, has come under fire because of his record while at the voting section of the Department of Justice.

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/democrats-threaten-to-block-fec-nominees-possibly-paralyzing-panel-2007-12-11.html

[Adelante]

28. In Chicago

As the first black president of the Harvard Law Review, Obama had his pick of top law firms. He chose Miner’s Chicago civil rights firm, where he represented community organizers, discrimination victims and black voters trying to force a redrawing of city ward boundaries.

-snip

Obama was part of a team of attorneys who represented the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) in a lawsuit against the state of Illinois in 1995 for failing to implement a federal law designed to make it easier for the poor and others to register as voters.

A federal court ordered the state to implement the law.

-snip

And Obama was part of a team of lawyers representing black voters and aldermen that forced Chicago to redraw ward boundaries that the City Council drew up after the 1990 census. They said the boundaries were discriminatory.

After an appeals court ruled the map violated the federal Voting Rights Act, attorneys for both sides drew up a new set of ward boundaries.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/02/20/obama_got_start_in_civil_rights_practice/

In 1992, he got a taste of the relationship between organizing and electoral politics when he led a voter registration drive that helped Carol Moseley Braun become the first black woman ever elected to the Senate. By 1995, he laid out his vision of the agitator-politician in an interview with the Chicago Reader: “What if a politician were to see his job as that of an organizer, as part teacher and part advocate, one who does not sell voters short but who educates them about the real choices before them?”

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/bobamasunlikelypoliticaledu.html

In 1992 Obama took time off to direct Project Vote, the most successful grass-roots voter-registration campaign in recent city history. Credited with helping elect Carol Moseley-Braun to the U.S. Senate, the registration drive, aimed primarily at African-Americans, added an estimated 125,000 voters to the voter rolls–even more than were registered during Harold Washington’s mayoral campaigns. “It’s a power thing,” said the brochures and radio commercials.

http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/archive/barackobama/

At the University of Chicago Law School, courses Obama taught:

* Constitutional Law III: Equal Protection and Substantive Due Process
* Current Issues in Racism & the Law
* Voting Rights & the Democratic Process

http://www.law.uchicago.edu/faculty/obama/courses.html

In the Illinois Senate:




Also in the United States Senate co-sponsored:

S.195 - A bill to provide for full voting representation in Congress for the citizens of the District of Columbia

S.1257 - District of Columbia House Voting Rights Act of 2007




---------------------

I've posted a good amount of information showing that Barack Obama has been fighting for voting rights his entire adult life. I could go on, but I don't have all day.

Please explain how you determined that Barack Obama would cave - it's an astonishing statement. Kucinich, I will give you, but what the hell has Edwards ever done?

[Adelante]

32. Obama co-sponsored Caging Prohibition Act

There is evidence that caging lists were assembled in Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania during the 2004 elections, possibly intended as the basis for massive voter eligibility challenges. The Florida incident made headlines again earlier this year during Congress’s investigation into the firing of several U.S. Attorneys, when allegations resurfaced that Tim Griffin, the former RNC opposition researcher then serving as an interim U.S. Attorney in Arkansas, had been involved in an effort to cage voters in Jacksonville. In June, Whitehouse and Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) called for a Justice Department investigation into allegations that Griffin and others at the RNC may have engaged in caging during the 2004 elections.

The Caging Prohibition Act would prohibit challenges to a person’s eligibility to register to vote, or cast a vote, based solely on returned mail or a caging list. The bill would also mandate that anyone who challenges the right of another citizen to vote must set forth the specific grounds for their alleged ineligibility, under penalty of perjury.

Senators Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.), Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), Russ Feingold (D-Wis.), Bill Nelson (D-Fla.), Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio), Amy Klobuchar (D-Minn.), Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), John Kerry (D-Mass.), Bob Menendez (D-N.J.), Barack Obama (D-Ill.), Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), and Chris Dodd (D-Conn.) joined Whitehouse as cosponsors of the Caging Prohibition Act. To date, the bill has also been endorsed by the Brennan Center for Justice at the New York University School of Law, the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, and People for the American Way.

http://whitehouse.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=286772&

[Adelante]

33. Obama: Voter Advocate and Democracy Index Act

This is a press release quoted in full:

Obama Introduces Bill to Rank State Election Practices and Performance


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Washington Contact: Ben LaBolt [phone]

WASHINGTON - U.S. Senator Barack Obama (D-IL) today introduced the Voter Advocate and Democracy Index Act to help inform voters and state officials about the election processes in their states. The bill would create a scorecard to rank states on a set of standards designed to measure the ease of exercising the right to vote.

“We are all familiar with the problems of long lines, lost ballots, and voters improperly turned away from the polls during recent elections,” Obama said. “To prevent these problems, we need nonpartisan, objective information about how well election processes around the country are working.”

The concept is based on a proposal that Yale Law School Professor Heather Gerken published this January in the Legal Times. In that article she points out that a “Democracy Index” – a public ranking of election performances around the country – would force states to take concrete steps to make voting easier.

“Without a single, additional federal regulation, this scorecard could provide a powerful incentive for states to improve our democracy,” Obama said.

For the 2008 elections, the bill would conduct a pilot program in selected states to test the performance measurements in the Democracy Index and gauge the value of the information gathered. Lessons learned from this pilot would be applied to the national collection of data for the Index in subsequent elections.

Summary will follow press release.

###

Summary of the Voter Advocate and Democracy Index Act of 2007

The Democracy Index

A new Office of the Voter Advocate within the Election Assistance Commission would develop a Democracy Index requiring the states to report on basic performance metrics such as:

* The amount of time spent by voters waiting in line;
* The number of voters incorrectly directed to the wrong polling places;
* The rate of voter ballots discarded or not counted along with an explanation;
* Provisional voting rates and the percentage of provisional votes cast but not counted;
* The number and description of election day complaints; and
* The rate of voting system malfunctions and the time required on average to get the systems back online.

Creates an Office of the Voter Advocate

The Act would establish an Office of the Voter Advocate that would:

* Collect data from the states to create a Democracy Index;
* Make grants to eligible entities to institute programs to improve performance; and
* Make recommendations to the states on how to improve their performance in the administration of federal elections.

2008 Pilot Program and Subsequent National Rollout

The Act would direct the Office of the Voter Advocate to conduct a pilot program in selected states in 2008 to test the metrics and gauge the value of the information gathered. Lessons learned from the pilot would be applied to the national application of the index and a requirement on all states to report data in subsequent elections.

http://obama.senate.gov/press/070301-obama_introduce_11/index.php

[Freddie Stubbs]

26. Edwards for sure?

How vocal was he last time, when he was on the losing ticket?

[joeybee12]

31. You got nothing, I tell you, nothing...

...I think all candidates learned from last time. And, Bill urged Al Gore to fight in 2000 moer aggressively...you can damn well be sure he'll do that in 2008 for Hilary if we find ourselves in that situation.

[bluedog]

34. Clinton "cave" on recounts?.........think again

shes one hell of a fighting machine.....and she'll fight for every last vote to get in the WH..for which any candidate should!

[LWolf]

35. That's why she's fought so hard for paper ballots

since the 2000 selection and the '04 debacle, right?

Right?

She sure is one hell of a fighting machine, alright.

:sarcasm:

Or perhaps you are trying to say that she'd fight a bad vote count if it were votes for HER in question, but otherwise?

[bluedog]

36. S. 450 [109th]: Count Every Vote Act of 2005

*********some Democrats tried to get this bill on the floor .but bill never cameout of committee,........and who held the majority in this session?





Legislation > 2005-2006 (109th Congress)
S. 450 <109th>: Count Every Vote Act of 2005
A bill to amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require a voter-verified paper record, to improve provisional balloting, to impose additional requirements under such Act, and for other purposes.

Overview Summary Floor Speeches Other Info

Bill Status
Sponsor: Sen. Hillary Clinton show cosponsors (6)
Cosponsors
Sen. Barbara Boxer
Sen. Mark Dayton
Sen. John Kerry
Sen. Frank Lautenberg
Sen. Patrick Leahy
Sen. Barbara Mikulski
Cosponsorship information sometimes is out of date. Why?
Bill Text: Summaries (CRS)
Full Text
Status: Introduced Feb 17, 2005
Scheduled for Debate -
Voted on in Senate -
Voted on in House -
Signed by President -

This bill never became law. This bill was proposed in a previous session of Congress. Sessions of Congress last two years, and at the end of each session all proposed bills and resolutions that haven't passed are cleared from the books.
Last Action: Jul 20, 2006: Introductory remarks on measure. (CR S7981-7983)
Show All Related Votes
Other Titles: -- Civic Participation Act of 2005
-- Federal Election Day Act of 2005

Committee Assignments
This bill is in the first stage of the legislative process where the bill is considered in committee and may undergo significant changes in markup sessions. The bill has been referred to the following committees:

Senate Rules and Administration
Related Legislation
See Also
Related bills identified by Library of Congress staff.

H.R. 939 <109th>: Count Every Vote Act of 2005 (Status: Dead)
Other Bills with the Same Title
The list below shows legislation in this and previous sessions of Congress that had the same title as this bill. Note that bills may have multiple titles. Often bills are incorporated into other omnibus bills, and you may be able to track the status of provisions of this bill by looking for an omnibus bill below.

106th Congress: S. 2666 (Status: Dead)
107th Congress: S. J. Res. 21 (Status: Dead)
108th Congress: H.R. 5191 (Status: Dead)
109th Congress: H.R. 939 (Status: Dead)
109th Congress: H.R. 1579 (Status: Dead)
110th Congress: S. 804 (Status: Introduced)
110th Congress: H.R. 1381 (Status: Introduced)
110th Congress: H.R. 2628 (Status: Introduced)

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-450

[Alamom]

37. Thanks for clearing that up. nm.

[LWolf]

39. Would it make a difference if there were a Dem majority?

If so, why haven't we seen action on HR 6200, which was introduced in the House in '06?

Was it re-introduced after the '06 election? Why not?

Why not make it an immediate priority, knowing the stakes in '08?


Where is the "fighting" for this bill?

[Onlooker]

38. I think Obama would be tough

Hillary would probably cave because she's so beholden to corporate interests. Edwards might cave because he's a lawyer and might see it through only that perspective. Obama on the other hand might be enough of a leader to try to fight on, even if the fight became risky. Kucinich of course would fight. No doubt about that.

[hayu_lol]

41. Ohio has been a problem state. The new gov. may fix some of the problems...

Diebold Corp. makes the machines in Ohio. When has Dennis gone after Diebold? Or ES&S?

This is Kucinich's back yard...and he has DONE nothing.