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My train wreck. On uniting anger with love, truth with hope

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:34 PM
Original message
My train wreck. On uniting anger with love, truth with hope
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 04:52 PM by JackRiddler
This is prompted but is not a direct response to a thread William Pitt started today, in which he joked that those arguing the many Dean-Kerry-Nader angles need to have a train wreck as a reality check. Perhaps his wish came true, since I have been involved in those arguments (just like you, Bill, all the way...), and as it happens, I really had a train wreck (an emotional one, in the real world) yesterday.

It reminded me one can spend too much time at places like DU - constantly trying to prove oneself right about this question or that. So I agree as to the possible salutory effects of train wrecks.

I think the Dean-Kerry-Nader discussion is important, and I refuse to forget what has happened or to simply "move on." But by now everyone here has made their points, and there are bigger fish to fry than just what happens at DU.

DU has and will continue to serve its purpose of helping to vitalize and cause ferment. But everyone committed to DU who is not by now out there, in the streets and workplaces and meeting rooms, organizing real-world activities to challenge and change the system, whether these activities are driven by specific issues (my preference) or by an election campaign, just hasn't got the message.

I hope to see a unity of anger with love, and of truth with hope. The conflicts here often boil down to that.

There are those who value truth unvarnished - truth as they see it, of course - and who are often on the attack, often angry. They are outraged by a world of lies, they can hurt feelings, and they can go on jeremiads. I am among them. We can be essential in removing illusions that hold back and deceive people into making false choices. We can wear people down by arguing that a given solution is false. What's your alternative, damn it? is what we often hear. We may not have the solution, but they try to define the problem. But we may discover we don't even believe a solution is possible.

There are others, those who simply hope to see things get better and who want to fight for that, period. Who refuse to believe it may not be possible (it may be). Who are ready to compromise with what's called the pragmatic view (it isn't always). Who often push the desire for unity towards a requirement of uniformity. They want a solution, even if it doesn't fit the problem, and they do enormous work in reaching out and building for solutions. They have the can-do attitude and they want simple lines to be drawn and off we go. As contradictory and great as the people of this nation at their best.

One small testimony to the difficulties in reconciling the two views is in the complex of rules and procedures on this site - which at their worst can tend to a progressive totalism, with proposals for yet more rules like, "Should Nader supporters be banned? Should undecideds be banned? Should nonvoters be banned? Should everyone we should want to actually reach and influence be banned, leaving this as an echo chamber?"

The MODS are great people and I admire their work, fortitude and patience. I don't know who could have done a better job, they are the only mods we have and I thank them. They have always had to react to what the members do, to the problems that arise, and are forced to develop varieties of modus vivendi. They have found some solutions that I like and others that I don't, as one might expect.

I'm trying to define a problem here. I want to see the anger united with love, and truth with hope. I give no solution, I am just hoping myself for a reconciliation between these contradictions on a higher level, something better than the lowest common denominator or let's ban this-that-them until DU is reduced to a purely organizational entity, a way of passing memos.

This will be my last debate post here for a while... I hope it leaves a good seed, not a bad one, and I invite you to give your thoughts on this problem. For me there's plenty to do in my chosen part of the whole: the struggle for 9/11 Truth disclosure which may or may not be the skeleton key to a different future.

For all of you, I hope there is plenty to do in your political path than just posting here or unfreeping polls. If you haen't already (and I suspect many of you haven't) get out to your neighbors. Make copies of the articles you like and distribute them. Start and get involved with reading groups and network among groups, then get on into larger actions. We are ourselves, our society has become, and we fight a Beast, all at once. The transformation back to civilization is perilous. Its necessity translates into personal and political revolution, a word I hope no one here misinterprets. Be prepared to be wrong, be prepared to reach out to people you never thought you would, be prepared for experiences diametrically opposite to the normality of the last 50 years in America, irreversible things, things completely unknown to any of us. Know who you trust, keep preparing to make your stand, and do your best to keep reaching. We the People may be lost after all - the beast will not surrender or go away, and we ourselves will not stop being Beast, simply because we vote it so, though vote we should. We may be heading for our Tiananmen Square, whatever form it takes. And when that time comes, we must want to make sure the soldiers aren't shooting, but joining. We are all the people, or we are nothing.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Actually, Jack
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 05:55 PM by WilliamPitt
it was a joke in reference to all the other 'train wreck' threads. The fact that so many others have gone over the high side because of a marginally funny joke thread of mine speaks volumes about why this forum is a mess, why so many people argue with each other, why DU 'common knowledge' is anything but.

Or, in other words, ----> :eyes:
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Maybe it's really your thread that speaks volumes
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 05:58 PM by Eloriel
about why this forum is a mess, Will -- since you think it's a mess. That you don't see the offensive nature of your original post also speaks volumes -- except they're volumes I've already read. I was pleased, however, that a few more people got to see it this time.

You can continue to defend it, and that's fine. Some people will side with you, some of them out of habit. But none of that changes its essential nature and I believe even YOU understand it was offensive, wrong, and served to further degrade discussion and especially the toxic environment here at DU.

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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. My 'holier-than-thou' hat is still at the cleaners, sorry.
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 06:02 PM by jpgray
:D

Every long-timer here has posted some of the most petty foolishness I have seen. You are no exception, and neither is Will. Neither am I. What is tiresome is the constant masquerade of some folks who claim to hold the moral high ground. You don't. I don't. Will doesn't.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Eloriel holds the high ground
Don't tell her any different.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Oh, no, jpgray
I have participated just as much, and with as much venom as the rules allow. And will continue to do so as long as the venom still flows from others toward Dean and Dean supporters.

The DIFFERENCE is, I don't pretend it's a fucking JOKE, including lying to myself about it. If that makes me "holier than thou" in your book, so be it.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. It is a fucking joke
and furthermore is fodder for fucking jokes. DU is not America. Go out and get some fresh air.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Yeah, that's it
I'll take the lion's share of guilt for the fact that Dean people were obnoxious assholes for months, and then their guy lost, and then Kerry people became obnoxious assholes because their guy won, and then Dean people justified being assholes because of Kerry people, and Kerry people justified being assholes because of Dean people, and all the rules got constructed to control that, and meanwhile there's Nader, and the other candidate supporters, and the general sense that any asshole can say any asshole thing they want because DU is anonymous, and that's only the tip of the iceberg, said iceberg being made up mostly of a lot of hyper-sensitive buttheads who enjoy being victims so much they will find things to get riled up and hurt about that don't really exist in the real world.

I did that. I did all of it. My 'train wreck' thread is really only a small part of my huge effort to create everything you've accused me of.

Or not. :eyes:
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maxanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. the thread
continued to fan the flames of divisiveness. Trying to blame it on others falls somewhere far south of noble.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Wah
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 06:14 PM by WilliamPitt
It's all my fault. Or not.

:eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Hi Maxanne!
I agree
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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Threads like the one you posted today do nothing but
poison the water more. Who are the "non-dumb duers" and who are the "goofs"? The choice of words is extremely judgmental and condescending. If you had said, who here wishes people who disagreed with them were in a trainwreck, it would have been more palatable. When you characterize people who disagree with you as goofs and call them the "dumb duers" it further widens the rift between people and feeds the acrimony that you are decrying.

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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. I would feel better if there was a "some" in front of Dean people.
Please?
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Willful misinterpretation to 'get' you for the most part, I'm sure
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 06:03 PM by jpgray
There is no bottoming out for the pettiness DU is capable of. However, it has its redeeming qualities, or none of us would be here. :) Everyone here has posted something stupid and petty, but at least most of us try to avoid doing so at all times.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Do you, now?
Everyone here has posted something stupid and petty, but at least most of us try to avoid doing so at all times.

ROTFL.

Well, let me tell you: YOU MISSED.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. You can post something else here, if you want. :-) (nt)
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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. Great post JackRiddler.
I agree that people should focus the energy they spend arguing at DU on more productive ways to vent their anger with the Bush administration. If people would get out in the real world more often, they would realize that many of these disagreements that can be argued ad nauseum are really petty in the grand scheme of things.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. checking in on the responses so far...
Maybe this hasn't had the intended effect? My hope was to encourage, not "moving on" but "moving beyond" to something new. Except it seems to have inspired another little round of stand-your-ground and punch it out. Ah well. At least no one's punched me yet.

Thanks GumboYaYa for getting what I mean.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I got the intended effect
and I appreciate your words. I have becoming to DU for almost 2 years now and only until the last few months have I thought why do I put myself through this on some days! But then I would be lost without DU.

I have never seen this place as rude and toxic as it has been the last few months through this primary season. I have been voting since 80 and wow...this year has beat the rest by far as being the most "dramatic."

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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. it was a valiant and noble effort
But, alas, for me there's just way too much water under the bridge. It'll be a long time, if ever, before I will be ready for anything like what you propose.

I DO, however, appreciate your efforts.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
18. Jack, I always appreciate your posts.
They are thought-provoking, honest and make me think.

This was another one. This is an interesting time - a time that has polarized me on occasion, which is exactly what I cannot allow to occur.

In short, you are right. We need each other. To realize what great opportunities are presented at this one little website to connect with others, inform each other, and get more involved, is quite a gift.

I see lots of stellar energy that we could use for things that could truly change the direction of where this "train" called the United States is headed. We have some great minds here, and some great hearts. If our own Democratic leaders cant lead us right now, we need to start leading ourselves. Its not up to them, its up to us.

Thanks for the post.

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A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
20. Thank you, Jack.
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