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Paul Rogat Loeb Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 03:36 PM
Original message
How Kucinich Supporters Could Help Stop Hillary Clinton
I know Kucinich supporters don't like Hillary Clinton. When I write about her, they respond, again and again. "She's a bought and paid corporatist." "She backed the Iraq war from the beginning." "She supported the regressive bankruptcy bill." In fact, many say, "If she's nominated I'm staying home." Or. "If Hillary gets the nomination, I'll change my registration to Independent and vote third party."

So think about how you'd feel if the headlines after the early caucuses and primaries read "Hillary places third," and you were part of that process. Imagine if those losses helped stop her nomination, the party ended up with either Barack Obama or John Edwards as the nominee, and one of the two became America's president. I suspect you'd feel a whole lot better than having Hillary as president. And way better than our enacting Bush revisited through her losing to Guiliani, Huckabee, Romney, Thompson, or even the reborn John McCain, who's not only promoted the Iraq war since before it happened, but even got caught on video singing "Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran" to the words of the classic Beach Boys song, as if war with Iran were some kind of joke. I'm sure you'd rather see Edwards or Obama than any of these.

But of course you'd rather have Kucinich. He's the most progressive, you say, and that's true. He opposed the war from the beginning and even organized Congress against it. He's got a great platform, and is strong on every issue, the antithesis of a corporate tool.

But he's also not going to be the nominee. No one has come from polling one or two percent at this late date to capture the presidency. No Congressman has won since James Garfield. There are just too many other candidates at this point with too much support, momentum, and money. If Kucinich hasn't captured America's imagination enough so far, there's just not time for this to happen fast enough to win. I also think his message plays better with already committed progressive audiences than with those less political, one reason it hasn't resonated more in the polls. And my guess is that America's just not ready for a vegan, which while it shouldn't make any difference, offers prime fodder for the Carl Rove types about how he's so out of the mainstream he's going to try to take away people's macaroni and cheese.

So if Kucinich can't win, supporting him in the key early races means valuing a symbolic educational campaign over one that has the capacity to actually affect who is nominated.
I think Kucinich people can make a difference, and that the tradeoffs are worth it to support Edwards or Obama.

Right now Clinton, Obama, and Edwards are all running virtually neck-and-neck in the Iowa polls. Any of them could win. Any could come in third. In the latest averages, they're within five percentage points of each other, between 25% & 30%. Whatever the outcome, it's going to set the tone for subsequent momentum, media coverage, money, and everything else that makes such a critical difference in who wins. Because the primary and caucus schedule is so compressed, and quite possibly over by mid-February, whoever emerges from those first few primaries with major momentum will likely be the nominee.

So how could Kucinich supporters, with their candidate polling at 1%-2%, even make a difference? First, because it's a caucus system, this favors groups that are organized and enthusiastic. Only 125,000 people attended Iowa's Democratic caucuses last round, but they sank Howard Dean's candidacy when he was the clear favorite going in. If Kucinich supporters could get out 12,500 people that's 10% of the vote, if 6250, 5%. Neither would be enough to qualify under the 15% threshold for representation, but if they could account for even just a few points difference in how the delegates are allocated, that might shift who comes first among the three leading Democrats. It might make the difference between Hillary being the nominee and Edwards or Obama.

A bit more on Hillary's dangers: I've writtenabout her potential to shatter the Democratic coalition and bring about a Republican resurgence even if she gets in. Recent polls actually show her losing or in a dead heat with McCain, Giuliani, and in some polls, Romney and Huckabee, Even if she does get in, progressives are likely to be fighting her on half the initiatives she proposes. She also spent more money in 2006than in all but one Senate campaign in America's history—to win a race she could have won in her pajamas, and at a time when shifting dollars to other Democratic campaigns would likely have gained a few more seats.

So are Edwards or Obama any better? I'd say Edwards is a whole lot more progressive now than in 2004—sometimes major life crises will do that to you. But even back then, he was progressive enough that the Kucinich campaign instructed its supporters to team up with those of Edwards and tip each other over the Iowa vote thresholds wherever possible. Edwards isn't perfect, but I've seen him go into a room of trade union activists and lead not just with economic justice issues where he knows he's going to get a strong reception, but with the Iraq war and global warming—the opposite of pandering to his audience. I've also seen him use scarce campaign money to run ads asking Congress to stand up to Bush on the war. And he was the first of the three major candidates to have a strong and comprehensive global warming plan, and the first to have some comprehensive universal health care plan. He's spent a lot of time addressing issues like poverty that are hardly political winners. And yes, he's a bit wealthy for my tastes, but at least he made his money fighting major corporations. He's speaking out enough about their power on the campaign trail, that this makes him my first choice, though Obama also has a lot that's attractive. In contrast with Hillary, neither of them are taking money from corporate lobbyists, and neither voted for the awful Kyl-Lieberman amendment on Iran.

Obama's also got some pretty progressive history. He spoke out against the war before it started, and has continued to do so, even I would have liked his voice a little louder. Both he and Edwards are clear that it is unacceptable to keep American bases in Iraq, while Hillary Clinton has equivocated. Equally important, Obama began as a community organizer, working in low-income communities, then returned to represent social justice advocates after his graduation from Harvard Law School, foregoing far more lucrative opportunities. Obama's also watched his mother spend her last months while dying of cancer having to read through the fine print on the forms of an insurance company that was trying to drop her coverage. That's an experience that could resonate with America. Finally both Obama and Edwards talk explicitly about the links between past movements for justice, and the need to build their successors in the present—while Clinton, I believe, sees current activists mostly as a troublesome threat. To me those are significant differences.

It also matters that both Edwards and Obama also beat the Republican candidates in most major polls. That's important if for no other reason than because one more Supreme Court Justice like Alito or Roberts, and we'll spend the next thirty years with courts that would have make Mussolini proud. And because the Republicans will do little or nothing on the most critical threat of global warming (even John McCain recently absented himself when his vote could have broken the Republican filibuster on the most progressive energy bill in 30 years). And because pallid the Democrats can be, and they can be pallid, they won't appoint people like the National Labor Relations Board officials who have been busily reclassifying nurses as supervisors so they can't join a union, and prohibiting the use of workplace emails for union-related concerns. So winnability matters as well.

Over the next six weeks you're going to have a choice. You can vote for Kucinich in your primaries and caucuses, make a symbolic point, and maybe give him a shade more clout to stay in the race. But whether he gets 1% or 5%, his presence when they're done is going to be minimal, and his coverage negligible as well. Your other choice is to do what you can to try to make Edwards or Obama the nominee, and potentially help tip the balance in who ends up president. To me, that's the greater political impact

Paul Rogat Loeb is the author of The Impossible Will Take a Little While: A Citizen's Guide to Hope in a Time of Fear, named the #3 political book of 2004 by the History Channel and the American Book Association. His previous books include Soul of a Citizen: Living With Conviction in a Cynical Time. See www.paulloeb.org To receive his articles directly email sympa@lists.onenw.org with the subject line: subscribe paulloeb-articles







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nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sadly, I agree
I'm a Kucinich supporter who is leaning towards Edwards as a more realistic choice, though as I'm not yet a US citizen, it doesn't really matter what I think, since I don't have a vote in this election (hopefully I will in 2012).

The bit I have a problem with is "Edwards or Obama". I think it needs to be one or the other to have a hope of succeeding. If half the Kucinich supporters get behind Edwards and the other half behind Obama, it will work in Clinton's favor.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. Edwards clearly is closer to Kucinich's goals than Obama.
And I think it's no coincidence that Joe Trippi,
the guy behind the Dean campaign in 2004, is the
guy behind the Edwards campaign this year.

So Mr. Tesha and I, two strong Kucinich supporters,
will probably end up casting our 2008 NH Primary
votes for John Edwards.

Tesha
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. I'd say Edwards' rhetoric is closer to Kucinich's
but I think it's a lot of hot air.

The differences between the three front runners are largely stylistic, IMO.
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MaggieSwanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #30
77. You nailed it about Edwards.
Actions speak louder than words, and what Edwards says and what he does are two different things.


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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #30
104. Yes but at least Edwards rhetoric states he is against ALL torture.
Clinton says there may be occasions where it is useful. My first choice is DK but then Edwards of the top three. His rhetoric is better.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
114. please don't - there's not point in primaries if you let the media whittle your selection down to 3
it means you really have no choice - I think you do have a choice, and you should vote for the candidate you like best.
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Just-plain-Kathy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #114
151. harmonicon, you are so right!! ...during the primaries is when we really have a choice.
DK will get my vote!!
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #114
155. I'd rather have a limited choice in the primary than no choice at all in the General.
There is no circumstance under which I will vote
for Hillary, so it's urgent to head her off in
the primaries, even if it means compromising my
positions. But Edwards isn't all that much of a
compromise, at least if he lives up to his campaign
rhetoric.

Tesha
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. I agree. Nader voters helped bush steal 2000. Kucinich supporters need to stop Hillary.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
42. No. Nader voters voted for Nader. And that's all. (n/t)
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
80. You need to stop Hillary. Kucinich supporters need to support Kucinich
Whoever wins the dem nomination will be the next president. This election will be like no other because of the outrage and fury and frustration with this administration and its dem enablers. Polls will not be accurate this time. We have to get Kucinich to be the nominee as he is the ONLY real change.
All the others are just more or less of the same. You want us to give up the only candidate who is not like the other three. No Way unless Kucinich asks us to. You must vote what you believe not what others ask you to bargain for.





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Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #80
125. Precisely
I get weary of the Edwards supporters trying to get me to switch my vote to him because they need help to stop Hillary. If this is such a good strategy all the Edwards supporters should switch to DK?


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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
85. I can't believe anyone is still pushing
this old meme. :eyes: If you're trying to woo Kucinich supports, this is NOT the way to do it.
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bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. Question is: Who will Dennis support?
any guesses?????
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. The nominee
just like he did in 2004.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Kucinich gave his
votes in Iowa to Edwards so maybe he will again.
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. not exactly
They pledged to help each other get delegates. In areas where Edwards wasn't viable, but Kucinich was, a few of the Kucinich delegates would go over to Edwards's side. Or vice versa.

The reason they did that was not because they were in agreement, but because they were appealing to different sets of voters. Edwards at that time was a Centrist war hawk, who was competing for votes with Gephardt and Kerry, while Kuicnich wanted the anti-war voters who were largely supporting Howard Dean. To reiterate, they were competing for different voting blocs.

Now that Edwards has reinvented himself as a Southern, more liberal version of Howard Dean, and co-opted the superficial trappings of much of Kucinich's platform, I doubt if DK will make any such deals, or pronouncements. His delegates will probably vote as they choose, but I'd be surprised and disappointed if he endorsed Edwards.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Thank you, Green Arrow, for
explaining that to me. Maybe he'll be trading with hillary then?
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #36
55. no sweat.
There's been a lot of confusion over that deal, which I admit, I didn't care much for at the time. It certainly helped Edwards more than Kucinich. I doubt he'll trade with Hillary, or anyone else, this go round.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. I'm a Deaniac so I was
Edited on Sat Dec-29-07 10:19 PM by zidzi
more than a little miffed.

Edit~ And what that means to me is that I've been against this misbetton War On Iraq from the get go and against all the candidates who are for it.
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. yeah, it defintely didn't help Dean
and I imagine that a fair number of Kucinich supporters would have aligned themselves with Dean had the deal not been made; some did anyway, but others did what their candidate asked. I think Gephardt hurt Dean as well.

Not that it's much consolation, but Dean is doing a fine job as DNC chairman, and I don't think he got nearly enough credit for the 2006 elections.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. Oh, it's a great consolation..
I'm of the mind that.."it is what it is" and things happen for a reason. Dean is where he's suppose to be and proving he wasn't a freakin' flash in the pan. He really is For America:)

It's the m$$$m that didn't give him any credit and the dlc was trying to hog everything cause that's what they do.

I'm betting we're not hearing much from Dean now cause he's getting us ready to do even better in 2008.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #34
146. I don't think you have to worry, sweetie
I don't think so.



Unanswered Questions About Edwards' 'Mysterious' Support in IA, NH
Posted : Sun, 30 Dec 2007 21:36:03 GMT
Author : Kucinich for President
Category : PressRelease


CONCORD, N.H., Dec. 30 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Only days before the Iowa caucuses and little more than a week before the New Hampshire primary, the Concord (NH) Monitor is raising questions about the sources of nearly $1 million in unregulated funds that are supporting and promoting former Senator John Edwards' campaign to win and influence votes in both states.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071230/OPINION/712300361

-snip

The Kucinich for President 2008 campaign is attempting to get clarification on these and other revelations disclosed by the Monitor today.

"These disclosures by the Concord Monitor are deeply troubling," said a Kucinich campaign spokesman, "and they demand answers."

Website: http://www.dennis4president.com/

Kucinich for President


http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/news_press_release,248205.shtml

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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. not gonna happen with this Kucinich voter.
Edwards Healthcare scam is a sell out. Much too important. On Healthcare, Edwards initial step sounds like Mitt Romney's . Forcing us to buy into private healthcare scams. And we thought Edwards' populist crock, just that. The insurance lobby intimidates him. Edwards wants our help, he can ask for the help of any Kucinich delegates that we may elect. It's called coalition politics. Vote your conscience first. / Healthcare is too important . Edwards wants our vote, change his healthcare position.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. No chance.
I'm with Dennis until he wins or quits.
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. should Kucinich stop being a candidate for the presidency
then our efforts turn to his re election as Congressman, Impeachment and a handful of other Congressional races . The other Democratic candidates , as they stand now, leaves us cold. They want our support, support our issues.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Well said!
Dennis is the ONLY candidate who is walking his talk and taking action. He is the ONLY one whose plans I endorse.
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Did not say in Nov.
Edited on Sat Dec-29-07 05:12 PM by cyclezealot
^ Thanks. We have no choice but to vote Democratic. But, you don't apply pressure on Edwards to come around to a decent healthcare plan, I assure you he won't. As I see it , the only way to do that is vote Kucinich. In Nov we almost assuredly will vote Democratic, but if they don't come around to Kucinich's positons on war, trade,& healthcare; it will be totally without enthusism.
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #11
88. Been trying to decide my priorites should Hillary be the nominee.
She does not need our help. She has all the corporate dollars behind her. We encourage her to be more progressive by holding out on our support. My interests will be to re-elect that independent voice from Cleveland- Dennis Kucinich. Other races of interest that will get our priority and cash, Tom Udall and Tom Allen in Maine. Allen a candidate most despised by Lieberman. Lets hope for the best. Lieberman worked against Sen. Sanders, but Lieberman ended up disappointed.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. Very interesting.
There are times when it is good to make symbolic statements. And there are other times when it is more important to influence the outcome of a contest.

Nominated.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. ...which is the same tired path we went down in 2004.
and 2000.

Democrats seem to think that by backing "electable" candidates that somehow they will win. They keep doing that, and with only a couple notable exceptions, keep on losing.

When will they learn?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. That is a fair question.
First, I want to make clear that I think that everyone should vote for the candidate that they decide to support. I haven't decided on which candidate I will vote for, and when I do, I'll probably keep it to myself. I have contributed to most of the campaigns, because I think it is important that citizens hear what each has to offer.

I enjoy participating in the discussions on DU, and I've tried to post positive things about each candidate. I do not focus as much on the negative, but there are plenty of others here that are willing to cover those issues. It is difficult, however, to keep from having a giggle when reading some of the rather cheap shots that about a half-dozen people make at a couple of democratic front-runners.

It is important that people learn not only about each candidate, but about the goals of campaigns, and how even relatively small groups can exercise power in things political. The OP gave an example of how, in two states, a group that may be 1% of democratic voters can exercise power. It is, obviously, up to each individual if they want to make a symbolic statement, or if they want to try to make a 1% difference.

When will people learn? My friend Rubin Carter used to tell me that smart people learn from others' mistakes; most people have to learn from their own; and some folks just never learn.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
82. Exactly. Outrage, anger and frustration drive this election to Kucinich.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. To me, you're saying I have no right to any choice at all
If I follow your line of reasoning, Kucinich should never run, even though his plans for health care are radically different from the Big Three AND are plans that many Americans want. To my mind, Edwards and Clinton are both demanding that I be forced to pay for health care that is given by insurance companies, who, in my opinion, try their best to make sure they won't pay claims, especially for cutting edge or alternative treatments, which are the kinds I use. Kucinich is the only candidate supporting the use of alternative and cutting edge medicine. Personally, if I can't vote for the man who represents my interests and beliefs, there's no point in voting in the primary at all.

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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. well said, HillaryObama are 2 peas in the same pod, hardly any differences at all
and edwards main claim to difference is he's no longer in the senate. with one real progressive in the race, there is an opportunity to vote on values, not pandering.

Msongs
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. Dean was far more progressive in every way than Edwards in 2004
Why didn't Kucinich throw his Iowa votes to him rather than Edwards?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
59. Maybe Kucinich knew that Edwards would move to the left in 2008
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
71. Maybe it was a sense of Dean as a middle-class candidate, where Dennis was more working class.
And Edwards also came across(then as now)as closer to working class than the elitist-seeming Dean.

Also, a lot of us were frustrated that Dean was taking votes we felt should logically have gone to Dennis, since Dennis had the stronger antiwar position and was TRULY progressive on domestic issues, whereas Dean(at the time)was a centrist pretending to be progressive(we'd also heard from progressives in Vermont of how Dean treated THEM with contempt when he was governor).

Candidate affinities aren't always as logical as you'd think.

You would have thought, for example, that Eugene McCarthy would instantly get out of the 1968 contest to give way for Bobby Kennedy, since they were both doves and were very close on most issues. Instead, McCarthy stayed in all they way and the two of them spent the primaries carving each other up, which ended up making it impossible for their supporters to come together around a single candidate or for many high-ranking Kennedy supporters to switch to McCarthy after Bobby was killed(although most of his delegates did).

And in 1972, you would have thought that Hubert Humphrey could easily back George McGovern for the presidency, since they'd been allies for years in the Senate, had huge areas of policy agreement and McGovern had campaigned hard for Humphrey in the fall of '68, bringing millions of justly embittered Peace Democrats back to the party fold and turning what would have been a Nixon electoral college landslide into a squeaker. Instead, Humphrey stayed in the primaries to the end and viciously attacked McGovern, campaigned only half-heartedly for him in the fall, and raised no objections when the Nixon campaign used Humphrey quotes in its anti-McGovern ads.


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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #71
115. I liked Dean over Kucinich last time, but think DK is the best of this lot
Dean was the only candidate speaking about instant run off voting, which I think would do wonders to clean up elections and the entire political process in this country. What you might say made Dean a "moderate" drew a lot of people to him - fiscal conservancy. Dead doesn't waste the party or the people's money, which a lot of people, like myself, appreciate.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #115
147. Actually, IRV was a big part of Kucinich's '04 platform
The Kucinich delegation even used it at the MN state DFL convention to elect their national delegates.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #147
149. huh, shows what I know
I wish he'd talk about it this time around! I guess Dean was just more vocal about it. Good to know - thanks! If DK still holds that position, I like him even more now!
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
136. GreenArrow explains it well upthread nt
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
15. I've already resigned myself to the fact that this is what I have to do on 01/08.
Ive never voted 'against' in a primary before. Its depressing.
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Lord Helmet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
17. Long Post Is Long - I'll Summarize
Kucinich won't win. Deal with it.
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man4allcats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
49. I think you've got your helmet on backward.
Win or lose, Kucinich is the only candidate who is true to progressive values. I'm sick and tired of having to settle for hypocrisy as an alternative. The thought of voting for a sellout from among the current swollen ranks of Democratic sellouts (either presidential candidates or Congress members) just makes me sick, and if I get sick I'll need medical care and I can only get that from Dennis. So, as Archie Bunker used to say, ipso fatso, Dennis gets my vote. Deal with it.

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kas125 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
18. Not gonna happen with this Kucinich supporter, either.
I signed a pledge long ago not to support anyone who votes for or funds the war. That doesn't leave me any other choice but voting Kucinich again without breaking my word. Healthcare is another big issue - none of the others have a plan that doesn't leave the greedy and murderous insurance companies in charge of our health. That's not good enough and I won't vote for someone with a half-assed plan when the Conyers/Kucinich bill is out there with a better idea. Dennis is the only one who represents my beliefs, so for me, supporting a "second best" candidate is not going to happen.
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
19. Why don't Obama and Edwards supporters get behind Dennis instead.
Kucinich is way better on the issues.


:evilgrin:
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Huzzah!
Wish I could nominate your response!
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. Yeah, I agree....great idea!!


:evilgrin:
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rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
93. The greed in their hearts would never allow them to Nom a populist.. they might loose money.
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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
128. Now we're talking!
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
158. I'll donate to his gubernatorial or senate campaign in a heartbeat.
Edited on Mon Dec-31-07 01:40 PM by Heaven and Earth
Until then, I don't believe even he thinks he has the skill to govern or represent anything bigger than a large city or a congressional district. There are 435 representatives, and 431 of them aren't running for president. What do they know that Dennis does not?
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
20. Very good OP! I think the key will be in caucuses where Kucinich is not "viable"
Where will they go? But if kucinich were to make a deal beforehand to sort of point them in the same direction, this could be interesting. Same for the other second tiers.

The more I think about it, the more I like the Iowa caucus system. It does give an interesting amount of leverage for the lesser candidates, as opposed to a winner take all primary. I wish more states used it!

Maybe this is the solution to the electoral college issue....nah, let's not go there!
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. Think Democrats don't allow winner or take all primary
the candidates gets the number of delegates their vote count merits. So any Kucinich delegates to Denver can deal with that later.
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. You have got to be kidding
The Iowa system is the most undemocratic system one can find. You have to vote in public so that your employer and your neighbor who hates you knows exactly who you voted for. People who work in the evening or have something they have to do are not allowed to participate. The system discriminates against all candidates except the "top tier" since if you don't have 15% then you don't get a chance to get any delegates. It is no wonder only a tiny percentage of eligible Iowans participate. It is a wonder any do at all.
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Actually I am not kidding....
In a primary, the "second tier" mean nothing! In Iowa, the 2nd tier can have their 2nd choice count. And having everyone together could be a positive thing, community-wise. I am not saying this is definately the best way, but it certainly has its merits. Why shouldn't 2nd choices count for something?
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. In a "primary" the second tier does mean something
In actual primary states, where voters actually vote in secret - imagine that! - second tier candidates can pick up delegates (assuming the state is not a winner take all system which most are not). In an undemocratic caucus system they are denied that democratic right.
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
145. thank you for the reminder and another reason
to vote my conscious in the primaries. When they froze Kucinich out of the Iowa caucuses, I sadly decided to vote for Edwards. I'm glad I read this post. I haven't been feeling to good about that decision. I was almost persuaded since my second choice is Edwards. Now I have to find out if Georgia is a winner take all state (I recently moved here from California).
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. You have to vote in public???
How does that work? By a raise of hands?

Recent elections in Russia were internationally condemned because employers, police etc. would see who you were voting for. Now you tell me Iowa is something similar? :wtf:
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Unfortunately yes.
Everybody gets in a room and people make a pitch for their candidate. Then people go stand in groups for their candidate. They figure the percents at that point and then if you were for a candidate who didn't get 15% of those in attendance then you can go stand with a group that did -- or go home. It is the worst system ever devised to select a candidate.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. I believe that's how they do it in Kenia, Zimbabwe and Mozambique...
Really... What the f*ck...??
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
135. Yep they vote in public
Edited on Sun Dec-30-07 04:54 PM by unapatriciated
Here is a vid that explains it.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2007/12/24/toobin.caucus.cnn

when I posted it on an earlier thread most of the few comments were pro caucus. I on the other hand feel it leaves the working class out of the process. They can not take off work at the designated time in order to participate.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #135
153. It's ridiculous.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
116. I think instant run-off voting would be better
I don't like the Iowa caucus system, because it isn't a secret ballot, and there's no absentee voting. I think the party should try to put in place a uniform IRV system for the primaries. Once people saw that it worked in their best interests (assuming it would - I don't see how it could not) maybe there'd be a push to have it for federal elections (which would take an amendment, but what I think is a needed one).
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Paul Rogat Loeb Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #116
143. I agree this would make sense
And something that I think we can push for in individual states. I like Iowa (and my own Washington caucuses) becuase it's face to face politics and you get the chance to convince people and make second choices. But it's a real problem that it discriinates against people who are stuck at work and can't attend.

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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #143
148. I don't know if just changing a few states would make a big enough difference
I think all states should take it up. The disconnect between the national and state parties is really getting to be a problem, esp. with the national party now stripping Michigan and Florida of their delegates - meaning my vote doesn't count. They're trying to punish the state parties, but it's the voters like me who suffer. A uniform system that also eliminates having two states have overly significant sway would do wonders, I suspect. I can understand liking the face-to-face aspects of it, but I don't think having the voting be out in the open is really democratic. What if a husband and wife differ or an employer and employee, pastor and parishioner? I can think of bosses I've had who I'd rather not know about who I vote for.
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shenmue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
21. You're not going to stop her. Efforts to do so, if she's the nominee, are whiny and selfish.
You care so much about the Democratic Party that you'd fight against its candidate (if that's what she becomes) just to salvage the name of your own? What are you, five years old?

You sound as cranky as the Nader supporters. Not really standing for the ideas themselves, but insisting that only you be the ones to bring them to the public.

You'd better stop living in your ideological ivory tower, or we'll inadvertently push another Republican into office.

As for the war funding-- please tell me how we are supposed to send food and supplies to the troops if we don't pay for them.

Grow up. You know and I know that the war is not going to end tomorrow. Quit being insistent little babies. I know you think you're saints and if anyone doesn't do things your way, they must be destroyed, but most of America isn't like that, and DU does not represent the mainstream Democratic voter.

Give America what they want, not what you want.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. The OP is obviously re: the primaries. nt
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Oh, the "time for the grown-ups to run things" theme again
Which is rather confusing, since substituting what you can get for what you ideally want is, generally, thought to be a "grown up" characteristic. I see it argued here quite frequently.

There is nothing remotely infantile or "ivory tower" about the OP. Nor does it make any demand that "anyone who doesn't do things way must be destroyed." It is a fairly basic analysis of political trade-offs in a choice of more and less flawed candidates.

And, if you look at polling on health care, Iraq, and caring for those in need, a majority of "America" seems a lot closer to "DU" than are many of our candidates. (Though I see plenty of defense for both Libertarian and Capitalist stances here, so am not even sure what you mean - I am supposing you refer to the more consistently "Left" or "Progressive" voices here).
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. You know, one of the reasons I've become ever-more-negative about Hillary...
You know, one of the reasons I've become ever-
more-negative about Hillary is the attitude of
her supporters. Bully-like and out of touch with
the realpolitik of the situation is no way to
win friends for your candidate.

Tesha
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
133. Bully is the keyword. Who else does that remind you of?
DLC = Republican. If it looks like a duck....
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #133
156. Unfortunately (for us), I believe you've got it precisely correct. (NT)
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. My vote will reflect my values.
Or else I don't really care to use it.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #32
101. I agree. nm
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ScooterFibby Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
50. Drop the name calling. Please respect the voters.
As much as I want to encourage DK supporters to vote Democratic rather than independent, calling them names for having qualities like integrity and courage is not going to convince them.

What we need in this country is Instant Runoff Voting, so DK supporters could make a second choice, and have that count if DK was eliminated.

Instant Runoff Voting is being tried out in several communities across America, including Minneapolis for city elections. We hope to take it statewide.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #21
99. Caring about the Democratic party is down my list of things to care about.
I care about freedom, the Constitution, ending the war, etc. Those that see things in black and white are not helping. It isn't a war between Democrats and republicans, it's a war between corporitists and free men and women. It seems all republicans are corporitists. But some Democrats are also corporitists. To say that our corporatist is better than theirs is absurd.

You blame others for "pushing" republicans into power, when the Democratic Party could do much more to support decent candidates. Sen Feinstein is a good example. The Democratic party will back her all the way. Free Democratic men and women will have no other choice. Per your thinking they should be good little sheep and reelect Sen Feinstein because she will be the choice of the Party. This thinking is disenfranchising voters and is killing America.

You say we can't stop her (Sen Clinton) and you are probably right. I said the same in 2004. She has the corporitists behind her and we mere peons don't have a chance.

Will you continue to support her if she chooses Sen Lieberman as her running mate?
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
26. Kucinich Is President! (If You Want It) nt
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ScooterFibby Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
51. The War Is Over (If you want it)
Great Lennon reference.
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MaggieSwanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #26
79. oh, Whisp!
Can I use that?

Kucinich Is President! (If You Want It)

Of course I will give credit to you.

-M

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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #79
112. why of course. ;)
Edited on Sun Dec-30-07 02:03 PM by Whisp
no credit needed - although I think I came up with this independently, I am sure someone else would have along the way somewhere.

would be nice to see that original b/w of Lennon's War is Over sign pic, with these words p-shopped in, eh?
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #26
81. I want it. He is the only real change. The others are like minded.
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rjones2818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
28. Dear Paul,
I think this quote sums up how I feel about your post:

It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it. - Eugene Debs


Hoosier wisdom which I think we all should heed.

Go Dennis! :woohoo:
http://dennis4president.com
Vote your conscience, choose peace!
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
35. Er....
While I don't want to see a Clinton nomination, I don't want to see Obama, either. They are equally unacceptable, from my perspective.

Edwards? Some things to like, and some things to remember and distrust. If he is the nominee, he'll have to more fully convince me of the authenticity of his amazing shift to the left to get my vote.

In the primary, the best candidate will get my vote. Period.

If the Democratic Party thinks HRC or Obama is that best, then they choose to lose my support.

I don't hold that choice against them, as I support every person's right choose. The ultimate outcome rests in the hands of the majority, and the majority is accountable for it.
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stuartrida Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
38. Such a small sliver of Dem primary voters are Kucinich voters, I wouldn't worry about it.
You should redirect your post to other 2nd tier candidates who have much more support than Kucinich.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
41. Why is it always the progressives that have to give in?
And by the way, Edwards supported and even co-sponsored the Iraq War from the beginning, too. And Obama has funded and thereby continued the war 100% of the time. Why is that better than HRC? Why should Kucinich-supporters be happy with them?

Why not reverse it? Why not ask all Obama- and Edwards-supporters to stop HRC by voting for Kucinich instead?
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #41
129. I Agree with you
it's seems an odd turn-about to stop one candidate you don't like by voting for a different one you don't like any better. Why not just all jump behind and support the one candidate that has always represented "we the people", and reflects the values and style of government we all are hoping for? If Kucinich wins a primary or caucus, what are the powers to be going to do about it? Seems to me that is the exact thing we should push, force a Kucinich candidacy down the throats of a conservative controlled media.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
44. Howard Dean was not the clear favorite going into the 2004 Iowa Caucuses:
Poll finds Kerry, Edwards surging in Iowa

WASHINGTON (AP) — John Kerry and John Edwards are surging close to Howard Dean and Dick Gephardt to create an electoral free-for-all going in to the state's Democratic presidential caucuses on Monday.

Polls in the state suggest all four are competing for the lead within the margins of error. A Research 2000 poll released Thursday showed Dean at 22%, Kerry at 21%, Gephardt at 18% and Edwards at 18%. The undecided vote was at 13% and other candidates were in single digits.

"Any one of those four could win," said pollster Del Ali of Research 2000, who conducted the poll for KCCI-TV of Des Moines. "The biggest surge without question is Edwards. Both Kerry and Edwards have momentum."

more: http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-01-16-polls-iowa_x.htm
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
47. I second the motion
Kucinich is toast, in terms of the presidency.

This is not the time for symbolism.
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. Kucinich is toast
Nevertheless, he's a damn sight better than anyone else running with a long time record to prove it, and he'll be getting my vote.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #47
118. if we vote for someone other than our favored candidate, it is our democracy that is symbolic n/t
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #47
140. You're better off going with toast than one of the sh*t sandwiches (nt)
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
48. BTW, arte you actually Paul Loeb?
Kudos if you are.
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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
52. Im for Kucinich and am working for his election, not
Edited on Sat Dec-29-07 09:12 PM by FreeState
against any dem, sorry I won't campaign against a person but rather against injustice and bad policy.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
53. Yours is one of the most shameful posts ever. Yeah, let's abandon Kucinich just to defeat Hillary
by throwing our support behind another candidate we might not even like.

I know Kucinich supporters don't like Hillary Clinton


You don't know squat then. There just do happen to be people who have Kucinich as their favorite candidate, including me, who also like Hillary. I know that can't seem possible to you, but that's just the way it is, pal.

Your entire piece is nothing but propaganda at its worst. It's a pathetic effort by you to pick on those poor little hapless Kucinich supporters and try to get them to help you overthrow the terrible Hillary Clinton by all ganging up on her. Fucking lame.

:thumbsdown:
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. the Devil is likely not as black as she is painted,
at least as far as Hillary is concerned, nor is the Angel as white as he paints himself.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #53
83. Yeah,lets not support the only one who makes sense on all the issues
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NewHampster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
54. On the phones of NH
I get Kucinich supporters telling me they're moving to Hillary. They want to back a winner.
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rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #54
91. Fucking LIES!
Edited on Sun Dec-30-07 09:13 AM by rAVES
Cant believe I missed you.. I thought I had all the $hillbot DLC stooges blocked...
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #54
157. I don't believe you.
Edited on Mon Dec-31-07 12:59 PM by Tesha
I'm sorry, but I don't believe you. Not for a minute.
No one who actually understands and supports Dennis's
positions could possibly support Clinton. It's a stretch
for me to make the reach to Edwards, and the only reason
I can do this at all is that the 2008 Edwards is taking
a much more strident stance than the 2004 Edwards did.

Yes, there are people who are so shallow/naive/stupid
that they only want to vote "for a winner" but these
people were never real Kucinich people and they won't
be real Clinton people either, even if she gets their
vote in the primary. And remember that, in the General,
someone else make look "more like a winner" than does
Clinton.


Tesha
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lisainmilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
60. Very thoughtful Post.
K&R
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
61. wow...You, the Moonie like author..attempting to steer votes away from Senator Clinton..
Edited on Sat Dec-29-07 10:39 PM by Tellurian
by glossing over your foray into thinking emotionally rather than people using their intellect to either make a statement with their vote if their candidate isn't one in the Top tier of candidates or just give up because Congressman Kucinich's numbers are so low their vote will be wasted because he's never going to win the nomination.

You have the audacity to come here (promoting your books under the radar) as some sort of guru proposing Kucinich supporters sacrifice their vote to vote for Edwards or Obama because, in your opinion, repeating Right Wing talking points,
(which btw, Hillary was absent for the BK Vote, she was at her husband's side when having BY-PASS Surgery) against Senator Clinton. You are advocating Kucinich supporters throw Dennis under the BUS and pick one of the two candidates you find worthy for their vote!! OUTRAGEOUS!!

Apparently, you are out of the loop, dear sir. Congressman Kuchinich happens to LIKE Senator Clinton, he even defended her in the last debate from the hypocritical attacks waged against her by John Edwards and Obama..

Has it never occurred to you if Kucinich supporters vote for him their votes are NOT wasted? I didn't think so..

Congressman Kucinich has the authority to transfer his caucus votes to whomever he so chooses, whether it be Obama, Edwards, Clinton, Biden, Richardson or Dodd. The choice is his to make!

Why would you come here as an interloper with such a plan trying to interfere in a democratic process that left alone will settle itself out on it's own in the end? Was it your heart and conscience speaking to you? Or was it a Third Party speaking to your heart, conscience and perhaps your pocketbook?
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. Awesome post. Thank you, Tellurian
Edited on Sat Dec-29-07 10:41 PM by mtnsnake
Every Kucinich supporter should be offended by this guy coming here and telling us that supporting Kucinich is a waste of time. For that matter, Edwards and Obama supporters should be just as offended by this guy's sleezy low-life tactics, considering he doesn't really give a rats ass about either one of them either. He just wants to make sure Hillary doesn't get the chance to run and he'd like to sell a few books while he's at it. Sounds to me like something right out of Karl Rove's playbook.
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desi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Agreed mtnsnake..
After doing a search on the OP it appears that one of the Clintons may have egged or TP'd his house. Takes a lot of gall to be groveling in such a manner.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. I'm sure if he were telling Kucinich supporters to throw their votes behind Clinton
It would be a different story.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Triangulation much?
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #63
78. NOtice how defensive they get about Kucinich
I think they can't deal with a candidate who does not triangulate. Honesty is so rare.
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #61
109. You are just pissed because he beat you to it.
:think:
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Paul Rogat Loeb Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #61
142. I'm neither a moonie nor a shill and on no one's payroll
I know a lot of Kucinich supporters and for most, Hillary Clinton is the last of their choices. The Democratic Leadership Council, which I've always found loathesome, continues to promote her as one of their stars--Edwards severed his ties a long while ago and Obama was never allied with them, contrary to some myths.


The points I make about Hillary Clinton are from her record--Iraq, Iran, the DLC, the tax votes, etc. They're not right-wing lies about non-existent Vince Foster murders.

If you want to support both Kucinich and Hillary it's your choice, but there are a lot of Kucinich supporters who've told me "I'm staying home if she's the nominee," and it seems like they ought to at least consider voting in a way that makes it the most likely that she won't be.
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johncoby2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
62. Just imagine if you can write something that didnt take an hour to read.
And make any sense.
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emlev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
65. Welcome to DU, Paul!
I'm a big fan of your work. In fact, Soul of a Citizen as at the top of my list of books I wish I'd written! I underlined so much of it that my underlinings are now completely useless.

I appreciate the thinking you shared in this article. The only thing that will pry my vote for Kucinich out of my warm, live hands is if by the time my primary rolls around it looks like a vote for Edwards will be strategically useful. (I don't live in Iowa.)
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
68. Might have been an acceptable pitch if the tone hadn't been quite so snide
If you want people to switch from their candidate to yours, you don't talk to those people like their spoiled children.
You don't just tell people they have to eat their spinach to avoid eating poison.
It's called showing respect, bozo.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
72. how about whoever wants kucinich's votes...
...do something to earn them?

in 2004 nader went to kerry to work out a deal. nader said: pick up 3 of my planks, surefire democratic planks, and i won't run. kerry said no. i want to see some quid pro quo before i shift my vote. hey, how about the vice-presidency?
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rch35 Donating Member (658 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
73. exactly my line of thinking
heart is with Kucinich, vote going to Edwards, or Biden if he makes a strong showing
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tucsonlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. That's odd...
My heart (as well as my head) is also with Kucinich, yet in my case it naturally follows that Kucinich will get my vote! The difference between you and me? You will be compromising your principles while I will be casting my vote for the best candidate. Not the lesser of several evils. Not for a second-best "viable alternative". For the best candidate! And I'll be smiling when I leave the booth. How will you be feeling?
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rch35 Donating Member (658 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #74
94. I'll still feel pretty good
I actually like Edwards quite a bit, and I don't feel that I'm compromising my beliefs when i vote for someone with a fighting chance at this point in time, if Kucinich had made a stronger showing, one that at least showed him as a viable candidate, then I would vote for him. Even so, I've given money to not only Kucinich, but Edwards and Biden as well, because I feel that they all have things to say that need to be heard and I would be happy with any of them in the presidency.
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tucsonlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #94
132. A Stronger Showing?
Where? Have you checked the results of the polls conducted by The Nation, IndependentPrimary.Com, Progressive Democrats of America (PDA) and most recently the Democratic Party of Virginia? Your heart is in the right place, but you're still being duped by the MSM.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #73
121. if you vote for Kucinich, maybe HE will make a strong showing
If you're already planning to give up (that is, not vote for the candidate who best reflects your views), just give up now and don't vote. You can leave the democracy to those who appreciate it.
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avrdream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
75. Another hit and run.
Drop a post at all the different "liberal" websites and then run without sticking around to hear the answers.

Makes me wonder if you are not a Republican.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #75
117. I have the same exact suspicions. nt
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
76. The polls and the press push candidates off on us. I support Kucinich against all others.
He is the only real change and if and when "HE" decides we should support another then I will. Funny that Kucinich beats all the others in all the polls around here. Most people I talk too are supporting him so I will hot stop supporting him to defeat Clinton. This isn't a game I play with my conscience, nor am I willing to bargain away my integrity. Remeber these famous Marlon Brando lines..."You shoulda looked out for me...I coulda been a contender...I coulda been somebody". Kucinich is the only choice for a real change and I will not abandon him...he is the only one who is right on all the issues and is the most electable and viable candidate out there. Being a vegan is a really wild jump as a reason to not support him. If that's the best the repubs can do then it will be a pic nic. Go back and watch how easily he put Stephanopolis down on his Sunday show when Steph tried everything he could come up with to smear and belittle Kucinich...He just kept getting more angry as Kucinich made him look like a fool. It was brilliant. Better than any of the other candidates when they try to defend themselves.

Here's the ticket...Kucinich/Edwards '08...the only real change...the truth ticket...they can't be bought or defeated.
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #76
86. My ideal ticket is
Dennis Kucinich and Sen. John Tester. new faces.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #86
95. My Ideal Ticket
would be Kucinich and Sen. Feingold.
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penguin7 Donating Member (962 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
84. There is not a spit worth of difference between Hillary, Obama and Edwards on policy.
And I much prefer Hillary and Obama to Edwards.

But I am voting for Kucinich.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
87. It would be the first time Kucinich supporters ever accomplished anything.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #87
122. let's see... what have I accomplished?
Well, I'm sure poor, and my apartment is tiny, but I make my living doing exactly what I want to do. I have a great family who I love, a wonderful and beautiful girlfriend, a dog who thinks I'm tops, I'm well respected in my field, I get to do a lot of traveling where I meet many interesting people. Hmm.... how did I get here? Did I ever compromise my principles? No fucking way. If you live your life like you vote, your life must be one lousy fucking dark hole of an existence. I vote like I live my life. DK gets my support.
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
89. 20 people can't stop, her 200 million supporters.
We're going to win the nomination and then the Whitehouse. 50 states baby....50 states.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
90. Hey, Edwards and Obama supporters want to stop Hillary too.
Here's what they can do, vote for Kucinich! With their numbers added to those of Kucinich supporters, Kucinich would have more than enough votes to win Iowa and NH, get off to a good start and win the nomination. Then we would have a real, true progressive in the WH.

You don't like that idea? Well guess what, Kucinich supporters don't like yours either. This is the primary season, when we supposedly get to vote for the person that we want, not the person who is more politically expedient. So unless you've got a better argument than this POS, you're not going to get very many votes from the Kucinich camp.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #90
96. I Like This Idea
ALOT, and as an added benefit, they would actually be voting for a TRUE DEMOCRAT instead of a DNC Conservative in progressive clothing.
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leftcoastie Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #90
126. Yes, and I
voted for Barry Commoner in 1980. That got me Reagan and the mess we're in today.
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book_worm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
92. "they sank Howard Dean's campaign" that's a great endorsement
for me. (sarcasm)
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
97. Do you think Kucinich supporters are idiots?
Kucinich's message is better than all the rest, better than Edwards or Clintons or Obamas. Right now the primary is 7 weeks away in my state. I don't need to be told who to vote for or support any more than you do, thank you very much.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
98. what a weird thread title: shouldn't kucinich supporters help stop Bush?
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #98
102. Apparently you missed the point of the post. nm
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #102
103. apparently you missed mine.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #103
105. Your point IMHO is that we should sell our souls to the DLC to stop Bush.
Do you think the DLC corporitists are better than the republican corporitists? Hint: They are backed by the same corporations.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #105
106. yes I do.
I think that we need the Democrats in office to make sure that the Constitution does not continue to swirl down the porcelain bowl and that the funnel from Bush's pocket from our treasury ends.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #106
107. I agree. But I's like to see a Democrat in office that wasn't under the control of
the corporatists.
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NikolaC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
100. The ONLY Candidate For Me
As far as I am concerned, Kucinich is the ONLY candidate that I can and will support in all good conscience. I am tired of being told in every single media outlet, especially one very popular so-called progressive online publication (NOT HuffPo), whom I should vote for. The constant belittling and sheer ignorance out there of Kucinich is astounding to me. For the life of me I cannot understand all of the carping and whining that so many do about wanting change, wanting their rights back, wanting a candidate that best represents them and wants to bring about that change, yet they vote for the same "electable" jerks time and again.

I don't want to hear how disappointed people are in their choices anymore and that they can't vote for Kucinich because of his looks, his "airy fairy" ways, his lack of leadership qualities, all things that they have been told time and again by the media. Quite frankly, I believe that if one does not vote for the candidate whose views they truly believe in, then one is a fool. Very few in Congress and the Senate stand for Americans anymore, certainly not most of the front runners (no matter what they say, their record and donations speak for themselves). But, go ahead and continue to believe that size and looks matter and America will just continue in the same downward spiral because they lack the balls and common sense to vote for change in their representatives. If Kucinich does not win the nomination, which is highly likely, then I will not hold my nose and vote for someone else, I will write him in if I have to.
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CabalPowered Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
108. Very well reasoned. K &R
And welcome to DU. :toast:
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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
110. WHO CAN WIN? REASONS TO VOTE EDWARDS IN 2008
1. WILLING TO ADMIT MISTAKES
2. DOESN'T MAKE A LOT OF THEM
3. LEARNS FROM THEM

4. CANT BE ATTACKED BY THE GOP FOR CLINTON CONNECTION
5. BEST L A B O R CANDIDATE IN THE RACE.... AND YOU KNOW THE GOP LOVES CHEAP LABOR MORE THAN GOD
6. WIFE IS COOL, SMART, POPULAR
7. HAS ENOUGH WEALTH TO NOT BE A SLUG

8. HAS THE BEST NUMBERS TO BEAT ANYTHING THE REPUBLICANS LOOK FOR
9. HAS A BACKGROUND IN THE LAW.... UNLIKE THE CURRENT PRESIDENT, THIS ONE WOULD READ AND THINK

10. HILLARY IS GOP LIGHT.... WE NEED A TRUE PRESIDENT OF THE PEOPLE!!!
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #110
123. one reason (of many) not to for for Edwards:
another candidate's platform is in line with your values.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
111. I bought this arguement in 2004 and voted for Kerry when my heart was
with Wesley Clark.

I swore then that I would not make the same sort of mistake again.

I vote for Kucinich.

The primaries are for voting your heart and your beliefs. If everyone did that, then we wouldn't necessarily end up with Clinton, Obama, or Edwards. (And we wouldn't have to hold our noses in the general election in order to vote the lesser evil.)


There are so many people who line up with Kucinich on most issues, that if they voted that way, he probably would win.


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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #111
120. They wont and he can't
I'm one of those people whose views line up almost exactly with Kucinich.

But he has been an ineffectual candidate which -- combined with the rotten bias of the MSM and the Democratic Elites -- has pushed him out of any realistic contention.

I'd rather be able to vote with more of my heart in the general election, by supporting a progressive who at least has a chance of winning, who IMO is Edwards.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #120
124. effective as a candidate? how about being effective in government?
For one, Kucinich has won MANY more elections for public office than Edwards has ever run in. Now, look at what they've done in government - would you rather have a candidate who, while in congress has pushed to have Cheney impeached for lying us into the Iraq war, or a candidate who co-sponsored the IWR and is partly responsible for this war? For me, the choice is clear.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #124
127. I think he'd be a lousy president
He's a great legislator, and a great figure in the progressive movement.

But a president has to govern. Which means being flexible and giving in sometimes.

The same qualities that are admirable about Kucinich are also the characteristics that would undermine him as president. He can't unilaterally act on his own, and do unpopular things at a whim.

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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #127
130. I'll accept that argument
I very vocally supported Dean last time and had one guy in particular try to talk me into Kucinich (who I like the best out of this lot), and that was part of my argument for Dean. I think Dean would make a better president than DK, and they both had strong points in their platforms that appealed to me. Still, I think Kucinich would make a better president than any of those running this time - that is, I don't just agree with him on principle. One thing we have learned from Bush is that it is possible to govern without trying to sway the other side or work with them. Right now we have a majority in congress and the majority of Americans may still be in favor of the Democratic agenda - they're certainly anti war. Now is as good a time as any to put forth a presidential candidate who will make the party differences clear and give people a real substantive choice on where they want this country to go. I think Kucinich is the man to do it (Gore or Dean would also be great, but they're not running).
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hahualya Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
113. This is why The Nation and I will vote for Kucinich
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080107/editors

These are the issues that are important to me as a Kucinich supporter and I will only spend my vote on an individual that supports them.. Its the only way I can voice my "voice"...
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #113
119. You read that Nation article differently than I
To me it said progressives should unite behind a candidate who can win, or at least put in a strong showing.

It discounted Kucinich as that candidate, and implied that Edwards was the best of the rest.

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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #119
139. It also said
Edwards populist rhetoric was not in sink with his record.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
131. I guessing a closeted Obama supporter.
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
134. Edwards and Obama supporters could go for DK, too. For a better result. (nt)
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
137. Don't worry. Dennis doesn't stand a chance.
Peace and the Constitution are just too much for American voters to stomach.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
138. I think Kucinich supporters should vote for Kucinich
Votes have to mean something.
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
141. I'm a long time Kucinich supporter
after he was froze out of Iowa, I started to re-think my vote and was leaning toward Edwards but after reading your post and the many replies(especially Logan's and Harmonican's). I realize my first choice (Kucinich) is my only choice in the primaries. Thanks for keeping me from losing my morale compass. I'll wait until Kucinich tells me he no longer wants my vote.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #141
150. wow, thanks!
I'm from Michigan (well, I live in England, but am a registered Michigan voter, and it's my official residence), so I don't get a say in the matter! It's nice to hear that other people agree with me, so my opinions won't go unheard in these primaries.
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. your welcome
I wasn't very happy with my decision to change my vote, your answer to perry made me see why and bamlib reminded me of a civics's lesson I had long forgotten.
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NikolaC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #150
154. Also In Agreement With Harmonicon
Edited on Mon Dec-31-07 09:47 AM by NikolaC
As I noted in an earlier post, I am so frustrated with the whining I hear from those who agree with Kucinich, but are afraid to support him, or dismiss him entirely because they don't see him as a leader. I lived in VA (I am currently residing in Canada and am registered in VA, but will be moving back to the states soon - I know I should have my head examined) and every time I go back to visit it seems to me that they are leaning more to the left and the GOP is losing their firm grip on that state. Kucinich supporters are trying and working hard to get him on the ballot there and I hope they succeed, if I have to write him in I will.

The country has so much to gain with a Kucinich presidency and I believe that more need to think outside of the box and what they are told. I sometimes wonder if it ever occurred to people who were afraid to, or discount voting for Kucinich really think it's their opinion that he is unelectable or what they have been told time and again by a media (sadly both mainstream and "progressive") whom I believe is afraid of a candidate like him. He wants to change many things for the better and that is what America is in desperate need of right now I believe. They need an honest leader who can get things done.

I supported Kucinich in his last bid for President and will continue to do so this time around. I don't give a damn how short he is, or if he saw a UFO, or whatever nonsense people come up with that is not grounded in reason to not vote for him, Kucinich would get the dirty work done and that is what counts to me. No more empty promises that can't be kept because the candidate is in the hip pocket of pick-your-corporation and they owe them because they paid for their run. In that case we will be in for more of the same and there will be no end in sight to the misery that has encompassed the US for what seems like an eternity now under the illegitimate regime that runs it now. I am also talking about grass roots candidates running for every office imaginable that want to further an agenda that is best for their town, city, state and the US. If we support them, then maybe they will stand a chance and we won't be disappointed. We won't know though if we continue with the lesser evil trend. End of long winded rant :rant:.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #154
159. Long winded, maybe...but a good rant.
I agree...I get so tired of everyone saying how they are in line with what Kucinich says, but yet give that precious vote to another. Makes no sense really.....but hey, welcome to DU.


PS. Lived in Canada for a while back in the 90's and LOVED it there....altho a tad cold at times ;)


DR
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
144. Welcome to DU!
Thank you for your well written post, and I look forward to reading more from you in the future. You've already donated after only 39 posts? Great!:hi: I'm not thrilled with the scenario you outline here, but I agree with it. It's time our side stop being so pureminded. We need to employ some strategy. I know, Dems and strategy? It's not often you see those two words in the same sentence.
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