This whole Joe Biden is a foreign policy guru is truly laughable.

[burythehatchet]

Foregt about the attack on John Edwards, consider for moment Biden's plan for Iraq. He wants what he calls a "soft partition". Well, Joe, a brief look at the history of the middle east will tell you that the Islamic world does NOT want more partition. They want unity. It was the imperialists of a previous generation that partitioned the region according to the interests of the Western countries. Let's think about how that worked out. The only people who want partition are those who believe their immediate self interest would be better served, e.g. the Kurdish people. But in terms of treating the Islamic world with deference and respect, telling them how to carve up their country is the height of a white man's delusional thinking.

[jillan]

1. Wow - Bush really got to you! I didn't realize you were part of the 25%

[burythehatchet]

52. don't worry cupcake, it'll all be over before tomorrow morning.

then you can lift up your head and seek another candidate. Oh, and make sure you pay that MasterCard on time.

[jillan]

57. If that's the case - I sure WON'T be rooting for Edwards.

[WheelWalker]

103. She's no cupcake you meathead. Next time you "burythehatchet", try

to avoid your frontal lobe.

[burythehatchet]

112. What village are you from, and do they miss you?

[TwilightGardener]

2. Ruh roh. I've said the same thing, annnnnd...here come the Joe-bots to

take you down.

[KingOfLostSouls]

8. Ruh Roh

then maybe you might wanna learn about what you're talking about and you wouldn't get taken down.

[TwilightGardener]

18. I know what I'm talking about, buddy, but thanks.

edit--and nobody "took me down".

[burythehatchet]

19. Before you get too self satisfied with your analysis

try and evaluate the difference between agrarian cultures and nomadic cultures, and the different social models that they respectively generate.

[KingOfLostSouls]

22. heh

I'm a native american, and not one of those "my grandma's grandma's grandma once dated a cherokee" types. I think I'm all too familiar with tribal cultures. but hey thanks for playing.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KingOfLostSouls]

30. hows that glass house's view today?

someone who doesn't know the difference between partition and federalism should probably buy a dictionary.

[cali]

38. snap!

I think I love you for that.

[burythehatchet]

41. Please meet your friends on the ignore list. Life is too short.

[KingOfLostSouls]

48. truth hurts

looks like someone needs their own training wheels before opening up their yaps and not being able to back it up.

[LittleClarkie]

91. It's amazing how some call people bots merely because they support another

What does that make you, doll face.

[burythehatchet]

115. Well one sees the quality of the comments on this thread, "bots"

is quite a compliment.

[LittleClarkie]

118. I suppose it should be considered a compliment that some folks consider Joe a contender

enough to go after him, anyway.

But I find that for the most part the Joe Biden supporters here are fairly positive folks who are enthusiastic about their candidate. Others could take a lesson from them. They've drawn me to their candidate, while others have repelled me from theirs.

[rucky]

101. Were you expecting a hug? n/t

[rucky]

3. That's only if you take a brief look at the history of the Middle East. n/t

[Lurking Dem]

5. True enough.

[burythehatchet]

9. How far back would you need to go to make your point.

cuz I sure didn't see one.

[rucky]

34. Before 1920...

Iraq was alot of things, but it was never one thing until the British got ahold of it. Even the Ottomans knew better.

[KingOfLostSouls]

4. Federalism

fed·er·al·ism

a. A system of government in which power is divided between a central authority and constituent political units




because that sounds SO like a carving up of their country. I mean, then they might have things like STATES. such a carved up country. god forbid theres countries with STATES in them.

[malta blue]

6. The "islamic" world may seek unity, however, tribal

and clan relationships trump that, and Biden knows it.

[bunnies]

7. My understanding is that the Iraqis dont want to be partitioned.

But Im sure someone will correct me if Im wrong.

[THUNDER HANDS]

10. they don't want to partition the oil

because each group wants it all for themselves.

[bunnies]

17. aha!

Sounds like they're well on their way to becoming america jr. after all.

[burythehatchet]

13. Only the Kurds.

And they want the partition so they can then stir up trouble in their efforts to form a new Kurdistan.

[Inuca]

31. Some do, some don't

I am oversimplifying here, but roughly speaking those who don't think that they can get and deserve the whole pie all to themselves (the shia) and do not want to share, and/or had the whole pie until recently (the sunnis) and hope against hope that they may get it back. The kurds are for all practical purposes already partitioned.

As to the OP: I tend not to make judgments on complex issues that I do not know enough about, and I most definitely do not know enough about this. And on such issues, I look up to people that know more, and whose judgment I respect. Biden and Kerry are two such people when foreign policy is concerned (Kerry was one of the main dem co-sponsors of the resolution, if I remember correctly Boxer was the other). This does not automatically makes them right, but I would say that they have a WAY better chance of being right than me or the OP.

[bunnies]

47. Thanks for all the info. :)

Seems way too complex for me to even have an opinion on the subject. I honestly feel for whoever has to try to fix the mess that bush has made of Iraq. I wouldnt want to be in their shoes for ANYTHING. :hi:

[CTyankee]

98. Well said and I agree. It seems to me that Biden has been studying

the ME for years now, traveled there and met many leaders there. When he talks about ME policy for the US I listen...

[tabatha]

11. Switzerland is made up of many canons

is a federal country, and very peaceful. But, they don't have oil.

[ryanmuegge]

12. Paul and Kucinich are the only ones that offer a true change in foreign policy.

The rest, Joe Biden included, just want to continue the imperialist hegemony that is, along with other moral and strategic concerns, bankrupting our country. Granted, anybody is more moderate when compared to Bush and all of the Republicans in this way (and therefore preferable).

All of them are fools (other than the two mentioned in the subject) when it comes to foreign policy, regardless of what congressional committee they chair or any other formal credentials.

This is talk of Biden being a foreign policy genius reminds me of Bill Richardson's hype as an energy guru. In both cases, we must look at RESULTS. What has Biden done during his time as a member of the Foreign Relations Committee? I mean, other than support two failed wars of aggression (Iraq and Afghanistan). With Richardson, are we anywhere close to being off of our oil addiction? Did Richardson approach the problem of our dependence on fossil fuels with the intensity necessary relative to the life and death nature of the issue? Of course not. If I went into a job interview with this kind of past performance, I would probably not get the job, and neither should either one of these two, given that energy and foreign policy are the respective conerstones of both men's campaign.


Biden has impressed me recently on TV when he said the Iraq Occupation was all about oil (which begs the question of why he voted to give Bush a blank check to invade). It's a shame his actions are not backed up by his talk.


Biden makes for a great TV interview, and he's an intelligent person, no doubt.

[themaguffin]

26. That is absolutely false. If people actually did their homework

They would see that Biden (and to a less extent Dodd) offer sound realistic approach to foreign policy.

[ryanmuegge]

59. He gave Bush a blank check to invade and occupy Iraq.

I do not think that it's illogical to not trust somebody with that kind of a track record. Granted, the actual language of that legislation is not that simple and direct, but everybody knew that we were on a path to war.

He may offer a "sound" and "realistic" approach to foreign policy within the traditional paradigm, but he does not offer a paradigmatic shift. This is what I was arguing. The traditional foreign policy of empire maintenance and hegemony will not work anymore.

[ellisonz]

131. You win.

[Adelante]

14. I don't agree with everything Biden says about foreign policy

You don't have to agree, either. But to say his expertise is laughable is laughable. John Edwards couldn't shine Joe Biden's foreign policy shoes.

[burythehatchet]

39. Really? Tell me, what exactly is "foreign policy"?

Maybe its the ability to memorize the names of capitals and prime ministers

Maybe its from having served on a committe for 20 years like Joe Lieberman

or MAYBE its about understanding that the plight of our human species rests not with the deals we cut with despots and dictators, but with a recognition of the human rights of all people. Maybe foreign policy is about lifting up the weak.

[ryanmuegge]

73. What an absurd notion: a foreign policy based on MORALITY, rather than selfish, cynical "realism."

We should tread much softer in the world if for no other reason than it may encourage the Chinese to be kinder and gentler with us when we are one of their satellite states (a slight exaggeration). After all, that's the end result of giving them our entire economy (yes, this is a foreign policy issue as well, Biden supporters, since the argument giving them MFN status was to influence their horrific domestic policies). This is not to let Edwards off the hook: he voted for this nonsense, too. The last thing we need is to elect one of the same old clowns who has been fucking things up for us with Iraq wars and ridiculous trade agreements. New blood is necessary. A paradigmatic shift is necessary.

It's time to start holding politicians accountable (a foreign notion in the culture of rigged, tyrannical incumbency, I know) for their VOTES and their POLICIES. Jesus Christ. Most people who work in the real world are micromanaged and held accountable for every fucking breath they take. Why do we allow our politicians to keep their jobs when they fuck things up? If I fuck up at my job, I'm fired (if it's not shipped to China first for reasons completely unrelated to performance). It should be no different for those fuckers in Washington. If they fuck up on big things, we should simply not vote for them. Why people think they're going to have a fundamental change by promoting the same people with whom we're dissatisfied is beyond me. Biden voted for the Bankruptcy "Reform" Act (or whatever the fuck it's called; it's really a giveaway to MBNA/BOA). He authorized Bush to invade and occupy Iraq. HE FUCKED UP when it comes to serving the interests of the Democratic base, and thus should be treated accordingly. He is no friend of ours.

[burythehatchet]

81. Thank you. Realpolitik does not serve us in the long term

and the bill has come due.

[Adelante]

114. You want foreign policy?

Here's your foreign policy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY6BZgkI0kI

[1corona4u]

42. Yeah, all he ever did was write bills...

to name post offices, LOL...

[LittleClarkie]

94. He's on the foreign affairs committee. How laughable could he be?

Indeed, he is the damn Chairman. Laughable? Hardly.

It is his most attractive feature, and one reason he's close to my second choice.

[burythehatchet]

116. and Joe Lieberman is chair of the oversight committee

so I guess he's the oversight guru.

[LittleClarkie]

117. What does THAT have to do with the price of tea in China?

The guru? I dunno.

Laughable? Probably not.

We weren't talking about gurus, after all. Just whether or not the man's experience was laughable. You don't hold a position like that if you're laughable.

[KingOfLostSouls]

15. I got $20 bucks to pay pal someone

who can show me where joe biden said he wanted to carve up their country and tear it apart.

no seriously, cause that whole part about a federalized government with three states sure didn't sound like carving it up to me rather than simply repeat george w. bush talking points. I mean, if george w. bush's talking points are the way you guys want to go and show your support for your candidate, why would we want to support someone whos simply repeating bush's talking points?

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

43. *snicker*

I'm enjoying watching you get your little panties in a twist.

[KingOfLostSouls]

50. easy enough

Well, Joe, a brief look at the history of the middle east will tell you that the Islamic world does NOT want more partition. They want unity. It was the imperialists of a previous generation that partitioned the region according to the interests of the Western countries. Let's think about how that worked out. The only people who want partition are those who believe their immediate self interest would be better served



you mentioned partion three times right there. partition is not the same as federalism. get a clue.

[jillan]

16. History lesson!

Iraq was composed of several states until the Brits came in in the 30's and forced them to be a unity government.

And it has worked out so well, hasn't it??

[KingOfLostSouls]

20. it only worked

when they had saddam keeping everyone in line.

so I guess the edwards and obama supporters, since they're repeating george w. bush's talking points, must also believe like bush that a strongman is necessary to "keep them in line."

wow, way to help win some people over to the edwards/obama camp with george w. bush talking points and offering "real change" by wanting to support yet another strongman dictator.

[jillan]

29. Exactly - but hey you have to consider the source of where these comments are coming from.

Myself and other Bidenites have spent months studying foreign policy just trying to keep up with Biden. :P

If it wasn't caucus day - I would be all over this idiot thread. But I know they are just doing it in retaliation for Biden calling out Edwards today.

[KingOfLostSouls]

36. the easiest way to sum it up

we need a president who can run the race, not someone who still needs training wheels to get out the gate.

[jillan]

40. Or one that spits out new talking points every hour.

[AspenRose]

111. Ah, so that's what this is about

My gosh, the lack of civility is truly disturbing....and disheartening

[themaguffin]

21. A brief look at history will tell you they don't want unity

Jesus get a fucking clue or continue to make an ass out of yourself.

[TwilightGardener]

23. Believe it or not, there are smart people who didn't vote for Biden's plan.

[themaguffin]

32. and how many voted for other candidates' plans. Oh that's right they don't have plans for Iraq

other than supposedly leaving - without any serious plans for avoiding more problems as we exit.

[TwilightGardener]

37. Joe's plan is not an exit strategy.

[Inuca]

51. Depends how you define "exit strategy"

I think it can qualify as such. Something to attempt to do, or better said convince the iraqis to do (not a small task...) so we can exit with reduced chances that all hell will break lose behind. Much as I want this effing war to end ASAP, the pottery Barn principle unfortunately applies.

[1corona4u]

53. Uh, yes, it is. A pragmatic exit;

1. Establish One Iraq, with Three Regions

Federalize Iraq in accordance with its constitution by establishing three largely autonomous regions - Shiite, Sunni and Kurd -- with a strong but limited central government in Baghdad
Put the central government in charge of truly common interests: border defense, foreign policy, oil production and revenues
Form regional governments -- Kurd, Sunni and Shiite -- responsible for administering their own regions
2. Share Oil Revenues

Gain agreement for the federal solution from the Sunni Arabs by guaranteeing them 20 percent of all present and future oil revenues -- an amount roughly proportional to their size -- which would make their region economically viable
Empower the central government to set national oil policy and distribute the revenues, which would attract needed foreign investment and reinforce each community's interest in keeping Iraq intact and protecting the oil infrastructure

3. Convene International Conference, Enforce Regional Non-Aggression Pact

Convene with the U.N. a regional security conference where Iraq's neighbors, including Iran, pledge to support Iraq's power sharing agreement and respect Iraq's borders
Engage Iraq's neighbors directly to overcome their suspicions and focus their efforts on stabilizing Iraq, not undermining it
Create a standing Contact Group, to include the major powers, that would engage Iraq's neighbors and enforce their commitments

4. Responsibly Drawdown US Troops

Direct U.S. military commanders to develop a plan to withdraw and re-deploy almost all U.S. forces from Iraq by the summer of 2008
Maintain in or near Iraq a small residual force -- perhaps 20,000 troops -- to strike any concentration of terrorists, help keep Iraq's neighbors honest and train its security forces


http://joebiden.com/issues/?id=0009

I honestly don't think people have even read it. I think they take the bites they get from everyone else, and don't bother to fact check.

[themaguffin]

58. It's not one, but it creates a plausible exit.

[On the Road]

27. Soft Partition is Not Partition

it is a decentralized structure which retains central control. Sunni dominance didn't work. Shiite dominance is asking for trouble. Yugoslavia worked pretty well on a soft partition bases until Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia started seceding.

As I understand his plan, it's similar to the one proposed by Juan Cole. That's pretty good company to be keeping.

[KingOfLostSouls]

28. In fact, Joe Biden is SO Not a foreign policy guru

that it was really john edwards that benazir bhutto was on the phone with when she was put under house arrest.

in fact, wasn't it john edwards or barack obama who was talking about pakistan at the last debates? I deluded myself, it wasn't joe biden

and man with that policy track record on foreign policy from john edwards and barack obama, they sure trump chairmain of the foreign relations committee and former chairman of the judiciary committee.


I guess the new thing is when you put someone in race you don't go for the proven winning record who can go all the laps, you go for the guys who still need training wheels to get out the gate.

[1corona4u]

33. I'm not going to read this whole stupid thread,

but all but one person in Iraq supports it.

Get a clue. Look up BOSNIA.

[jillan]

35. Gee - WHO was it telling Edwards and the rest to focus on Pakistan instead of Iran?

:think:

[burythehatchet]

44. Maybe I should run because I've been saying that for 10 years.

:shrug:

[jillan]

54. Better yet - why don't you educate your candidate?

He sure was talking tuff on Iran :P

[burythehatchet]

60. He sure was. And I was furious. However, given the fact

that in my lifetime of being a political junkie, Edwards has said what I have been longing to hear for many years in regards to corporate power. That is one of the underlying causes for many of our problems today. Iraq is a symtom of that problem. Read The Shock Doctrine if you haven't already.

[1corona4u]

45. This thread is laughable.

Really it is. Nice try though. ;-)

[burythehatchet]

55. Don't fret, it'll all be over in 12 hours and you'll have enough time to pick

someone else.

[1corona4u]

63. That's just the thing....

I won't be picking anyone else.....

[KingOfLostSouls]

64. it won't be john edwards

edwards won't be the democratic nominee.

unlike hil and barack, he has to win in iowa. he's got all his eggs in one basket here, big mistake.

we can play the "my candidate is cooler than your candidate" anyday, thats fine, john edwards won't be the democratic nominee and has no chance of winning in the general if by some miracle of god he was. he's inexperienced, he's fake, he panders, he's a suckup and he doesn't impress anyone since his political "rebirth" after being a simpering idiot against a guy like cheney that even an 8th grader could tear a new one.

any questions?

[Inuca]

65. Not only ignorant, offensive too n/t

[KingOfLostSouls]

46. I'll take experience anyday

with the track record to back it up and knowing where a guys stood for 30 years with his PROVEN COMMITMENT to human rights and women's rights.


rather than one who was DLC then decided populism was the way to go after flopping taking on elmer fudd cheney.


sorry, hiring dean's former campaign manager doesn't make you a populist overnight, and sure as hell doesn't make a foreign policy expert.

[1corona4u]

Exactly.

[1corona4u]

49. Jeez, dupe.

what is with this board lately?

[Steely_Dan]

56. Seeing That No Other....

candidate has come up with a solution other than Biden...

So you don't like Biden's plan...fair enough. What sir, would you do? What does YOUR candidate suggest???

You're pretty free with the criticism...do you have a solution?

Waiting...

-Paige

[burythehatchet]

61. Pull out yesterday

[Steely_Dan]

62. Just Up And Leave, Right?

So, just what color is the sky in your world? We fucked the place up...We have a moral obligation to get out as soon as possible without leaving a broken country...a country WE broke.

-P

[1corona4u]

68. Steely...

I don't for a second think the population at large thinks we should just leave. No way. Not smart people anyway. Like Biden said; you have to be able to look around the corner. Obviously something these candidates aren't/haven't been doing.

[burythehatchet]

70. You have to say "serious" people (not "smart" people)

[1corona4u]

78. I meant what I said.

[burythehatchet]

79. My IQ is 138, what's yours?

[1corona4u]

93. Yeah, that's laughable, LOL...

you didn't even know that middle easterners were considered caucasians, LOL...I'd think anyone with a 138 IQ would know that.

[burythehatchet]

95. Foiled again. DRAT! You all are way to sharp for me to

pull anything over on you. Good luck to your guy, and join your friends on the Ignore list.
:hi:

[youthere]

109. Can you put me on your ignore list too?

because I've pretty much decided you're an idiot. Thanks!

[burythehatchet]

110. DONE

[youthere]

113. Thanks!

[Steely_Dan]

130. Hey...I want to be on the Ignore List

Please

[burythehatchet]

119. There was a scene in the film Gandhi

where the Viceroy is meeting with the Mahatma and the Viceroy says "do you just expect us to get up and leave?" Gandhi replied, "Yes, in the end that is exactly what you will do".

In the end when we realize that we are not the arbiters of other peoples' affairs, we will just leave.

[1corona4u]

66. And then what?

[burythehatchet]

69. You tell me ... then what?

Maybe those brown folks will decide to rebuild their country that we kindly destroyed for them.

Maybe there will be joy when the families of the 100's of thousands we killed see we are getting the hell out.

What else?

[burythehatchet]

67. Just the mere fact that the white peeps of the world need a plan

for the brown people is really the warped frame that we are accustomed to dealing with. How in the heck did Iraq become a relatively modern country without us!

[Steely_Dan]

72. Wow....

This is going in a direction that...Geeze.

Are you a fan of "stream of consciousness?" Just curious.

e.e. cummings

[1corona4u]

74. You know, what's with the white comments...

you've said that more than once....by the way, middle easterners are considered caucasians.

[burythehatchet]

77. Because underlying all of this is a racist frame of mind.

I've lived as a subject of the "empire", I've lived through war, and I've seen what Imperialism has wrought. Quick, name all the countries with a white population that we've gone into to take their resources.

If it hits a nerve, that's good.

[1corona4u]

83. Hits no nerve with me...

but it did shine a kliege light on your ignorance about middle easterners.

[burythehatchet]

92. ok

nice chatting, take care.

[burythehatchet]

87. So are Indians. It has to do with the ancestral lines

For example, North Indians (fairer complexion) originally migrated from the Rhine Valley to the North of India. There are even Hindu symbols that resemble Germanic symbols.

[Clark2008]

88. I can back you up there.

My first husband is Arabic and our son is considered completely Caucasian - by both federal law and by archeological bone structure.

[murbley40]

80. Brown folks?

[burythehatchet]

84. Yeah, like me.

[1corona4u]

85. See #74.

[Clark2008]

71. He may not be a guru, but he's got more sense than the candidate you support.

And... I can speak to this. I'm a former Clarkie - and Wes Clark *IS* an FP guru.

[burythehatchet]

75. I really liked the General. I thought he would have been a good

candidate (until it turned out that he was a Clintonite).

We just have a different perspective on what foreign policy is/should be.

[Steely_Dan]

76. Indeed...

[Caseman]

82. I think your analysis is wrong...

...It isn't partitioning, not even "soft partitioning," it's federalizing, decentralizing their system of government. You're are correct in the sense that Islamic countries trend towards one religious leader as that is what there culture traces back to, the Abbassid Empire. However, we know, and they must eventually know, that a centralized despotism would never work in the borders of Iraq because it is the home of 3 distinct sects (Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds), not to mention countless tribes. The idea of a federalized country is idealized after the situation in Bosnia where you distribute power and revenue between the balanced regions they draw. They all elect one single figure to dictate on some overall matters. Each district gets their own army for security and backbone. And when they eventually form their nationalism and unity, they will slowly disband their separate armies, alike Bosnia. Correct me if I'm wrong however, as I'm typing from the head.

[burythehatchet]

86. Thanks for a reasonable reply.

My view is that in many Islamic areas of the world the people feel disenfranchised, deminized and vilified. Our "leaders" casually insult their entire religion and culture on a daily basis. What they lack is unified political voice and that plunges them deeper into the social abyss. I believe that this is a euphamism for divide and conquer and I don't like it one bit.

[Caseman]

100. The United States isn't the sweet, innocent, virgin of liberty anymore...

...It hasn't been since the Mexican War. However, don't let our negative persona effect how you view this plan because I think it will work. I believe it is culturally respectable, and most of all, has worked before with the similar circumstance in Bosnia. The one thing we cannot not do, is turn our back on the millions of inhabitants. I trust Biden, with his foreign intrigue, could cooperate with the leaders of the region and get a cohesive agreement concerning the federalizing of the region.

[murbley40]

89. me thinks some must be just a little bit uneasy!

[Bake]

90. I am shocked at the venom in this thread.

I thought we were all (well, mostly) Democrats. Now I find we're mostly assholes.

Bake

[burythehatchet]

97. Dude, hopefully within a month things will be back to normal

whatever normal is.

[ProSense]

96. Juan Cole on Biden's plan:

Juan Cole:

One mystery about all the denunciations of the Senate vote is that the resolution the senators passed is just the plan of Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, the leader of the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq, a central member of the (Shiite) United Iraqi Alliance, which rules Iraq. Al-Hakim pushed through parliament (by a simple majority with barely a quorum) his plan for an 8-province Shiite confederacy last October. The only concession he had to give was to wait 18 months, (i.e. until next March) to proceed. Of course, the al-Hakim plan differs from that of Biden in not forcing the Sunni Arabs to form a regional government of their own. (The Sunni Arabs don't like the idea of provincial confederacies, preferring strong central government rule a la France.)

The resemblance between the al-Hakim plan and that of Joe Biden is an embarrassment to ISCI, since the US is not popular in Iraq. Ammar al-Hakim (the son and currently plenipotentiary of Abdul Aziz, who is in Iran for cancer treatment) denied the similarity and expressed amazement that the US Senate should try to legislate on such a matter. His denials do not strike me as convincing-- and they lack any specifics.

[burythehatchet]

99. Thanks. Cole is awesome. The one line sums it all up

"expressed amazement that the US Senate should try to legislate on such a matter"

PRECISELY!

[1corona4u]

105. Yet, it totally worked in Bosnia...

hmmm...

[ProSense]

106. You read what you want to! A similar plan is supported by key Shiites and Kurds:

more.

Biden's original plan was changed to remove the implication that America was dictating a solution. Some influential Iraqi leaders are advocating a similar plan.

[rucky]

127. Read it again. s-l-o-w-l-y this time.

[jillan]

102. What Juan Cole doesn't tell you is how

many times Biden and al-Hakim have met and have spoken.

Biden was in Iraq right before al-Hakim came out with his plan, which Hazem then presented to al-Sistani.

Me thinks there is more to this story than meets the eye. A couple of us Bidenites spent weeks going through all of this.

[1corona4u]

104. There was much back and forth, but Joe just said...

there's only ONE person opposing it in Iraq. I believe Joe.

[jillan]

107. Two leaders working towards the same goal.

Juan Cole is an idiot anyway - he is a rw shill.

[1corona4u]

108. Not to mention that it's in their

fucking constitution.

[jillan]

120. Edwardians - you may want to look at this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3938114

[Inuca]

121. I just noticed your sig line

did he actually say that?!? :rofl:

[Jillian]

124. hahaha!

[Jennifer C]

122. Juan Cole on Biden

"Biden has developed this wonderful sardonic sense of what exactly the Bush administration ideologues are thinking, and is able to puncture these insubstantial balloons masterfully, building on decades of experience in foreign affairs."

http://www.juancole.com/2005/01/rice-doublespeak-at-senate-transcript.html


"As I say, you have to admire Biden for recognizing the mess and for thinking seriously about what structural programs could be implemented to provide a way out of this mess."

http://www.juancole.com/2006/05/biden-plan-on-iraq-as-some-readers.html

[Orsino]

123. Biden talks a great game.

Seriously. He really does. He's quite stirring when he makes his stern pronouncements about doing what's right--just before he votes to sell a few more of us into corporate bondage.

We could do worse, but we can do much better. I see no reason to settle for feel-good sloganeering.

[burythehatchet]

128. I absolutely feel for him during the Thomas hearings

since then he has been a huge disappointment - espcially the credit card issuer protection act.

[IronLionZion]

125. Show me evidence the Islamic world wants unity

because that worked out so well with the balkans, or with the united arab republic, Israel/Palestine, etc.

[no name no slogan]

126. I don't agree with his Iraq plan, but he is no amateur, either

I don't agree with his Iraq plan, but he has a ton of foreign policy experience-- more so than most other candidates.

[burythehatchet]

129. I agree he has a lot of experience. However, I would prefer a

completely NEW foreign policy that stresses the needs of the common people in other countries.