CBS News: "Gay Community Still Wary Of Obama"

[Bluebear]

For the "nobody knows about any of this non-story outside of DU so lighten up and get over it" crowd:


=====
Candidate's Assocations With Proponents Of "Ex-Gay" Movement Draw Questions
January 24, 2008

.....At the same time as Obama’s Sunday speech, gay bloggers were digging into the background of the Rev. Kirbyjon Caldwell, a spiritual adviser to President Bush who endorsed Obama a day earlier. They turned up a page on his Houston church Web site promoting a ministry to cure homosexuals, sparking outrage among the same bloggers who were extolling him only a few hours earlier.

The twin developments appeared to encapsulate the tension inherent in Obama’s embrace of what he calls a new style of politics, his belief in forging alliances even with those who hold fundamentally different views. In this case, he has spoken out against homophobia in front of black audiences while embracing some black religious leaders who are resistant to gay rights.

“People are confused,” said Wayne Besen, a gay activist and founder of Truth Wins Out, a New York organization aimed at countering the “ex-gay” movement. “We see one report of him saying powerful words. Then he is hanging out with some shady characters. People don’t know what to make of that.”

By Monday, Caldwell’s church, Windsor Village United Methodist in Houston, scrubbed its Web site of any reference to the gay conversion program, Metanoia Ministry....

“It matters who you are endorsed by because these are the people who are going to be calling in favors,” Besen said. “The gay and lesbian community has the right to be disturbed when such individuals are standing up beside Obama.”

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/23/politics/politico/main3743835.shtml

[NMMNG]

1. I saw this earlier tonight

By Monday, Caldwell’s church, Windsor Village United Methodist in Houston, scrubbed its Web site of any reference to the gay conversion program, Metanoia Ministry.

In a Politico interview Tuesday, Caldwell said his 14,000-member church - one of the largest United Methodist congregations in the country - is not affiliated with Metanoia.

“I got to tell you, this is going to sound real stupid, but I didn’t know it was on our website,” Caldwell said. “I was surprised and embarrassed by it. I’m embarrassed from the standpoint that I should have known. We have 120 ministries at the church. You can’t be on top of everything.”

Um, Kirbyjohn have you ever heard of the 9th Commandment? If you didn't know that Webpage was there then how did you know to toss it down the memory hole the millisecond the story broke the surface and started making things uncomfortable for your friend Obama?

Lying sack of dog poo. :eyes:

[Bluebear]

2. "I’m embarrassed from the standpoint that I should have known."

Similar to what Obama said when he tried to pass on that McClurkin wasn't "vetted" enough. BS.

[NMMNG]

3. I'm constantly amazed

At how many of these people revert to "I didn't know" as an excuse. What's worse is that people accept it. People running things are supposed to know what's going on, aren't they?

[Levgreee]

4. People are so intolerant of others

who have different views. You should tolerate their ignorant views, and work towards change and positivity. Most people think they are doing the right thing, even if what they are doing seems blameworthy. They are not evil.

Hate, negativity, and intolerance both ways, gets you nowhere fast.

[Bluebear]

5. HAHAHAHAHAA "You should tolerate their ignorant views" - tell that to Matt Shepard

"Hate, negativity, and intolerance both ways, gets you nowhere fast." - - - Sorry, I am proudly intolerant of psychotic religious "ex-gays" who are out to damage people.

[NMMNG]

6. What do you suggest we do with the KKK?

Stormfront, the Neo-nazis?

Do tell.

[Bluebear]

7. Why are you intolerant of Stormfront? That will get you nowhere fast!

:silly:

[NMMNG]

8. Silly me

I just have a problem with hateful people who harm and kill others for no good reason. :shrug:

[Jamastiene]

90. We should tolerate the KKK and invite them over for dinner.

:sarcasm:

The nerves of some people...:eyes:

[gaspee]

9. Different views?

We think you are an abomination and must be cured or you're going to burn in our fantasyland hell of retribution is a "view" ? You need to be cured according to our religion is a "view"? Abusing teenagers by instilling self-loathing and contributing to the high rate of GLBTQ suicides and homelessness is a "view?"

Funny how the people being oppressed are supposed to accept their oppression as a "view"

Well, this GLBTQ person isn't about to accept that. I don't know what version of the bible they're reading but mine says slaves are AOK and you should sell your daughters into slavery and kill your disobedient children. Are we supposed to accept that "view" as well?

Calls for the oppressed to tolerate intolerance make my blood boil.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

15. Good point, it's not a "view" or an "opinion", it's hate

And I'm sick of people refusing to distinguish between the two when it comes to homophobia.

[Levgreee]

16. You are mistaken, not all "homophobes" hate homosexuals

the fact that they want to cure them, help them(from their own personal perception), says something, does it not. They don't want to kill or intend to torture them.

I didn't see outright in that article anyone who blatantly hated homosexuals.

I have to go to bed, but if this thread is still going tomorrow I'll expand on my views, as everyone currently thinks I'm an idiot, but I believe my opinion to be valid.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

18. You should be advocating tolerance for bigots on some other site

It doesn't belong here, and I'm sick of putting up with it. This place is supposed to be a haven from right-wing attitudes and talking points. Push this argument much further and I'll alert the mods, because as a gay person, I'm losing my patience with being put on the defensive here in my condemnation of homophobic bigots.

[Levgreee]

20. I'm bisexual, if that makes any difference to you

[LostinVA]

37. BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHA -- that's a good one

You don't really think we're going to believe that, do you?

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

40. He couldn't say he was gay, because in the post I was responding to

He kept referring to gays as "them". Except we're talking about GLBT here, the "B" stands for bisexuals of course, so if he were really bi he would've been phrasing it as "us", including himself in the GLBT community.

[LostinVA]

41. Exactly -- actual GLBT people are inclusive

Not to mention, they don't defend the ex-gay movement.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

43. Expanded explanation

He'd already painted himself into a corner referring to gays or GLBT as "them." Therefore he couldn't have said he's gay, because that wouldn't have been at all believable after referring to gays as "them." He thought his way out was to say he's bi. But of course bisexuals are also targeted by the religious right, so it still doesn't make sense that he wasn't including himself among the people he referred to as "them." But he expects us to believe that's why he wasn't including himself in that group.

Lost, for some reason I misread your post as disagreeing with mine, so I typed out this new one to clarify mine, before realizing you were agreeing with me. So don't take this post as meaning I thought I had to explain it further to YOU, I just thought as long as I wrote it, might as well leave here for others.

[Bluebear]

19. Are you straight? Can we cure you? We're only trying to help, not torture you.

Really, you may think your opinion valid, but it really is naive at best and unaware and enabling at worst.

[Hieronymus]

124. You hit that one on the head. I like to ask people like that, "At what

point did you choose to be heterosexual?":eyes:

[femmedem]

29. I don't think you're an idiot.

If I understand you correctly, when you said "tolerate" you didn't mean to ignore people's homophobic views. I think you meant not to hate homophobes, because they were well-meaning though misguided, and work to educate without alienating them. If so, I agree with you, because you won't win someone over by ending dialogue.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

33. Is homophobia hate?

Or is it just a "view"? Is racism a "view" or is it hate?

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

34. So now homophobes are well-meaning?

What unbelievable gall.

[femmedem]

47. I think I haven't made myself clear.

My partner grew up in a highly homophobic family, in a small town where few people were openly gay. In his youth, he felt comfortable making fun of gays. Now, in his '50's, probably a third of his close friends are gay (we live in a gay-friendly city), he supports full marriage equality, and someone's sexual orientation is no longer an issue for him. But he didn't evolve because people lashed out at him for his prejudice. He evolved because he came to realize that many of his co-workers and neighbors were gay, and that he liked them. Also, in college he made a homophobic joke and someone he respected--a teacher--kindly and privately told him he was gay, and that jokes like that were hurtful.

Sure, I think homophobia and racism (a reference to your earlier post) are hateful. I don't think they should be ignored or shrugged off. It's important to support anti-discriminatory legislation and to publicly support civil rights. But in one-on-one conversation with homophobes and other bigots, if you want to sway them, you're better off speaking in a way which allows them to listen. You can't simultaneously teach and belittle, at least not effectively.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

52. Don't you feel at all uncomfortable lecturing gays about how they should feel about homophobes?

Honestly, I can't imagine myself going into a thread about racism and telling black people they better be nice to racists, or they're always going to be hated.

[femmedem]

53. Well, that is a good point. I'll consider it.

Levgreee is part of the GLBT community.

I've got to get off the computer and get to work, so don't take offense if you write back and I don't respond.

Peace out.

[Leopolds Ghost]

154. You speak of racism as if it was a separate issue

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, but many single-issue democrats don't understand that (like the folks who insisted civil unions instead of gay marriage was a betrayal at the ballot box, or Dems who call all christians reactionary homophobes and insist their candidate stop using Biblical quotes).

[bullwinkle428]

56. "People lashed out at him for his prejudice" - it sounds like

prejudice was the "default view", so to speak, as he was growing up, and he was totally comfortable about displaying that homophobia!

If anything, people didn't "lash out" enough during his formative years, and he just figured everything was A-OK with regards to his attitudes...

[LostinVA]

36. "Curing" gays is NOT an act of love -- except to you and twisted ex-gay homophobes

[LostinVA]

46. If you REALLY believe that, you're on the wrong site

That is against DU rules.

[we can do it]

67. WTF????

:eyes:

[Jamastiene]

92. I'll tell you what.

When you successfully change your sexual orientation while being yelled at that God hates your "sin" of not wanting to be raped, come talk to me then. Otherwise, fuck off.

[Der Blaue Engel]

145. Part of the definition of homophobia is hatred of homosexuals

Perhaps not all racists hate people of color. They're just afraid of them and want them to stay away from their white communities.

If you don't think brainwashing to try to scrub "the gay" out is torture, you need to educate yourself about this vile phenomenon.

I'm bisexual, if that makes any difference to you, and I recognize such hate groups for the insidious liars that they are. They prey on "our" kind, too, you know; in fact, sometimes we are their specific target, since they wrongly assume a bisexual is simply "choosing" to be bisexual and will see the "wisdom" of living a lie so as not to face prejudice and upset homophobes.

[Leopolds Ghost]

153. So gay people should boycott & rally against any candidate that tolerates or espouses christianity??

In any form eh? :eyes:

[troubleinwinter]

10. BULLSHIT. Zero tolerance for ignorance and hate. IT.MUST.NOT.BE.TOLERATED.

Fight ignorance in its fucking face and kill it. Knowlege kills ignorance.

[Levgreee]

13. I'm not saying don't fight it, I'm not saying that you shouildn't push knowledge on to people

Try to reduce intolerance wherever it is.

but why hate them? It is vengeful. If someone steals from you, steal back from them? If someone curses you, curse them?

If you TRULY are being oppressed, do everything to stop it. Civil disobedience, educate the public. But avoid hate as much as possible. Avoid striking at them. Be better than them. This NEVER helps.

Do you disagree with how I think? Then you disagree with Martin Luther King also, and one of his greatest inspirations, Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.

[NMMNG]

14. Who is suggesting hate?

We just don't believe in this so-called "reaching out" nonsense. Particularly when the only "reaching out" that's being done is between rabid homophobes and other rabid homophobes. That's not how its done. No education or changing of minds/hearts will occur that way.

I notice that Obama isn't doing any "reaching out" to racists. He simply calls for them to be fired. Why the double standard?

[Levgreee]

17. I do know in this thread alone, I am sensing a lot of hostility, even towards me

Also, the fact that people would think less of Obama for being supported my any minister who had an intolerant (I don't think they were hateful) opinion on homosexuality.

[NMMNG]

21. What you're sensing is frustration

From people who've been dealing with this sort of nonsense for far too long.


And we have every right to think less of Obama for consorting with hateful bigots who want to eradicate us. He refuses to tolerate racism in any form, but has no problem using multiple virulent homophobes as part of his campaign. That is a vicious slap in the face of LGBT people everywhere.

There is no requirement for us to tolerate intolerance. None whatsoever.

But first, I want you to read something: a quote that prefaces the very first chapter of Chris Hedges’ amazing book, American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War On America. I’ll be referring to American Fascists a good deal as well in upcoming posts, but for now, I’d like you to focus on this quote (I mean, really focus, letting the meaning of each sentence seep into your bones), from The Open Society and Its Enemies by Karl Popper:

Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

Re-read it a few times. Let it roll around in the back of your head for a while.

The Right Not to Tolerate the Intolerant

[Levgreee]

23. Tell me where violence towards homosexuals was being encouraged by these ministers

Otherwise I don't take that excerpt as relevant

they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, |||||and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.|||||


"In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. "

They are being kept in check by public opinion. They are not able to encourage violence, or forced "re-education". Therefore, counter-suppression is most certainly unwise.

[NMMNG]

27. There are many survivor stories from people

who have endured the "therapy" provided by these "ex-gay" charlatans.


The "good Christians" took thousands of dollars from this teenager, whom they knew was mentally ill, refused him his medications, and kicked him out after they got what they wanted out of him (a "miracle on I-35" conversion story for The 700 Club). They didn't even give him money for bus fare back home. http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=3927


More horror stories.

http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2007/12/former-ex-gay-minister-recounts-spiritual-rape-by-living-watersdesert-stream/

http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2008/01/ex-gay-survivor-testimoney-eric-leocadio/

http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2007/10/peterson-toscano-posts-follow-up-on-ex-gay-harm/


Many more available via http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/ - at the main site and via linked sites.



These people cause often serious emotional, spiritual and even physical harm to people under the guise of "therapy". They are hateful charlatans who wish to harm LGBTs and they need to be stopped. Not tolerated. Not pandered to. Not met halfway. Stopped. Period. End of story.

[Irishonly]

125. It's Wrong

IMHO, for what's it worth, the so-called Christians wanting to "cure" any GLBT are practicing hate the sin, love the sinner. The problem with their thinking is being gay isn't a sin.

[LostinVA]

39. My wife nearly ended up dead at 16, because of these charlatans

And you have the AUDACITY to come onto DU and DEFEND them.

Get the fuck out of here. I'd educate you on the real horrors of the ex-gay movement, but I think you'd find it kind and loving.

[femmedem]

59. The ex-gay movement is enormously hurtful, sometimes lethally so.

I'm sure your wife went through hell, and I hope she's safely out the other side.

I, a straight woman, am deeply bothered by Obama's willingness to associate himself with that movement in any way. I won't be voting for him in the primary.

But this morning I am thinking of Dr. King who said, in his essay on Loving Your Enemies, "...that there is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies. When we look beneath the surface, beneath. the impulsive evil deed, we see within our enemy-neighbor a measure of goodness and know that the viciousness and evilness of his acts are not quite representative of all that he is. We see him in a new light. We recognize that his hate grows out of fear, pride, ignorance, prejudice, and misunderstanding, but in spite of this, we know God's image is ineffably etched in being. Then we love our enemies by realizing that they are not totally bad and that they are not beyond the reach of God's redemptive love."

He goes on to say, "we must not seek to defeat or humiliate the enemy but to win his friendship and understanding."

http://www.salsa.net/peace/conv/8weekconv4-2.html

I am myself an atheist, but otherwise I believe these words of King's wholeheartedly. And I think this is the heart of what Levgree is saying. It doesn't mean make nice. And it doesn't mean ignore or tolerate acts of homophobia or bigotry.

I hope I haven't offended you. (You are generally one of my DU heroes.) Another poster told me that because I'm straight, I'm out of line offering my two cents. Perhaps so.

Namaste.

[DURHAM D]

78. You are out of line.

"we must not seek to defeat or humiliate the enemy but to win friendship and understanding"

We don't need to "win" a damn thing. This passage suggests that if we are real nice and listen to you (straight people) then you will accept us.

Well, I don't accept you.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

81. I couldn't read any more of her posts

She has some nerve, doesn't she.

[DURHAM D]

85. I meant to respond to you and responded to myself instead.

I should not talk on the phone and post at the same time. Sorry. Please see below.

[DURHAM D]

84. Yep - I hate that "you behave and we will like you" crap.

Its the same ploy men still use on women - If you are nice we might accept you or your point of view...blah, blah, blah.

Its the fucking 21st Century. If you don't (or can't) get it then you have been left behind by your own choice. I have refused to have an argument with anyone about gender or gender preference for over twenty years. I won't engage. I will have a discussion with a fully evolved adult but I will not argue.

Anyone who wants to argue "win us over" merely needs attention.

My time and my person is valuable and I won't squander it on someone who has not earned the privilege of my attention.

[mondo joe]

54. The work of these ministers contributes to the suicide rate among gay kids - the

highest rate among teens.

[Jamastiene]

96. The only hostility I am sensing here is coming from you.

[LostinVA]

38. "you shouldn't push knowledge on to people"

You are certainly not pushing knowledge onto anyone, so I'm glad you take your own words to heart.

[jpgray]

11. So you argue for toleration of intolerance?

:crazy:

[CyberPieHole]

103. LOL...that's how I read it too. Crazy. n/t

[troubleinwinter]

12. I refuse to tolerate such an ignorant ass as you. You are the FIRST in 3 years to go on ignore.

[Raster]

22. I'm tired of tolerated bigotry and ignorance. And yes, beating a poor gay young man almost to

death and leaving him to die on a fence IS FUCKING EVIL! I have been bashed by muggers out to "rob fags." I spent three weeks in a hospital. My tolerance level is low, very fucking low. And I am very fucking tired of politicians pandering to bigots for votes. I will NOT sit in the back of the bus so Obama--OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER--can sit in the Oval Office.

Wake up America!:kick:

[Levgreee]

24. That is the same as hating all animal rights activists because one blows up a building

You are rightfully are intolerant of the people with the worst views, the violent and hateful bigots...
But then you expand that to the non-violent, less extreme and non-hateful bigots.

[Raster]

26. No, it is not the same. I am intolerant of all hateful, homophobic bigots....

irregardless of they take the opportunity to accost me or not. If you want to be a hater, keep it to yourself. Get it in my face, then you must face the consequences.

[Clintonista2]

28. Wait, wait, let me guess, people who go out and beat/rob gay people are "Pro-family" activists?

:eyes:

[Bluebear]

121. :nodding:

[mondo joe]

51. More like hating the KKK or NeoNazis. NT

[Jamastiene]

94. Rape is about as violent as it gets.

I'm not going through the story again for someone like you to get your rocks off, but trust me, the "ex-gay" movement is about rape, nothing else.

How about you follow your own advice and accept our frustration which you see as hate when we haven't done anything violent toward you either.

So you see if you can claim we are "hating" intolerant people then we can claim it of you as well. So everything in your posts says you are hating GLBT people. Got it? So, learn to quit hating us or shut up at us. Think we haven't heard enough of your right wing ideology? Trust me, we have.

[Levgreee]

25. double post

[TankLV]

32. Let me know when he embraces the WHITE RACISTS...

until then, you'r full of CRAP...

[PurityOfEssence]

144. Don't just lower that bar, lay it right down on the floor

He sucks up to homophobes in the name of religion for personal gain. There's so much wrong there that anyone who has a problem grasping frustration about it is either morally crippled or just as cynical as he is.

This is incredibly wrong. This is specifically antithetical to "hope" and togetherness, and the fact that it's given some kind of pass because of religion just reinforces the contention that religion should be kept separate from government.

The McClurkin affair is the ugliest bit of deceptive abuse by any candidate this cycle. Further snuggling with other shitheads just confirms the pattern.

[LostinVA]

35. These bigots KILL kids -- and I'm supposed to tolerate them?

Fuck that.

[LostinVA]

45. dupe

[mondo joe]

50. Tolerance means they can have ther bigoted views - it doesn't mean supporting them.

[jlake]

98. Wow. I can barely tolerate this ignorant post.

I don't think that most people on the opposing side think they are doing the right thing. I think they are full of hate.

[CyberPieHole]

105. Let us know when Obama reaches out to the Klan and panders to White Supremacists...

like he has pandered to the gay~hating bigots. I'm sure his base will be happy to sit next to the Imperial Wizard of the KKK.

[MethuenProgressive]

30. "Barak Obama, Donnie McClurkin & Christian Students Against Intolerance"

http://exodus.to/content/view/802/37

Barak Obama, Donnie McClurkin & Christian Students Against Intolerance
By Daniel Downs
November 6, 2007

One of the criticisms leveled at presidential candidates is their inattention to college students, a very large voting block. At least one candidate is not ignoring them. Last weekend, Barak Obama’s road show included ex-gay Donnie McClurkin, a grammy award winning gospel singer and preacher. Some believe Obama partnered with McClurkin hoping to attract black evangelical voters, but he is after more than just black evangelical vote. Obama is after the young college aged Christian voter. That becomes more apparent when Obama’s response to gay criticism is considered. His reply to the many protests made by gays against his partnership with McClurkin was that he did not agree with McClurkin’s views. Nevertheless, his statement is a claim that he was for true tolerance and respect towards those who he does not agree with. Intended or not, Obama’s position aligns with a college student campaign called Allies, Too.

http://thestateofamerica.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/barak-obama-donnie-mcclurkin-christian-students-against-intolerance/

Allies, Too is affiliated with Exodus International, a Christian organization of ex-gays helping others who want to exit the gay lifestyle. Just as McClurkin, they are witnesses of the hope that a natural life lived in the moral dignity and one enjoying the pleasures as nature and God’s designed is possible. It is possible because the power of Spirit of life make followers of Jesus free from any power of corruption and immorality. (Romans 8:2) That is the experience of McClurkin and Allies, Too.

Birds of a feather.

[Bluebear]

128. Yay, at least they won South Carolina

:eyes:

[TankLV]

31. As soon as obama "reaches out" to RACISTS, then we can BEGIN to talk. Until then, shove it...

He blatantly pandering to the worst elements in our society, and EVERYONE should be CONDEMNING him for this TRAVISTY.

Instead, we find the obamabots actually trying to DEFEND the INDEFENSIBLE here.

It is DISGUSTING and has no place on this board...

[Bluebear]

69. Agreed.

[Maven]

74. Nope, he shuns racists. Only homophobes deserve "dialogue."

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

75. Nothing makes people angrier than being treated unfairly

Any argument that bases itself on a double-standard for racism and homophobia is unfair. They are both bigotry and should be treated EXACTLY the same.

[NMMNG]

77. Bingo

People who are harming him and his get the "eff off and die". People who are harming others get hearty welcome and "vote for me".


We certainly know where we stand in all of this.

[mtnsnake]

42. Let's face it. Obama knows he can't reach out to Republicans AND gays at the same time

or the Repukes won't go for him, so he's made his choice.

Despicable choice it is.

[joeybee12]

44. I'm not wary...I'm convinced! No way will I vote for him even in

the GE.

[Cass]

48. Its not just the gay community who is outraged.

I'm a straight woman and I was appalled at the McCurkin thing and even more so now with Caldwell. First off, I believe the Caldwell and McCurkin types to be horribly offensive and dangerous. Their message is based on ignorance and intolerance and they do incredible damage to young people who are struggling with their orientation. Its hurtful and dangerous and if Obama can't see that or if he chooses to ignore that just to garner votes then that's a big red flag about him.

Secondly, it does not sit well with me at all that Obama is very quick to throw a group of people under the bus for votes. Its wrong and there's no excuse for it.

Lastly, Obama makes nice speeches but then turns around to embrace bigots not once but twice and that speaks volumes to me about where he's coming from. Once could be spun as a mistake, but twice indicates its deliberate.

[Leopolds Ghost]

155. Should Obama throw Christians under the bus because a few Christians are homophobes?

Not that this is going to happen, but some have demanded it here as a
condition for supporting Obama (in the GE, they still won't vote for him
in the primary, so they want him to insult Christian non-homophobes such
as people who support civil unions as long as they're not called marriage,
without getting any new support for doing so.)

[mondo joe]

49. That can't be, Bear. We have been informed on this board that the gay comunity does not care

about this, and only a few gay activists on DU are making a fuss!

[IndianaJones]

55. Didn't some people say this was an isolated DU outrage? nt.

[mondo joe]

58. Stop it, you silly fringe activist. Gays on DU have no idea what the GLBT community thinks.

We have to let straight people tell us what we think!


;-)

[TankLV]

133. like Bleachers - he's really "trustworthy" on this issue!

[William769]

57. K&R!

"Wary" is not the word I would have used.

[CTLawGuy]

60. this states some in the gay community are "Wary"

and then quotes the leader of a NY gay rights group who is not screaming "ARRRGH MCCLURKIN!!" but rather acts confused and annoyed that some other church leader associated with the ex-gay movement is endorsing Obama. He also praised Obama for talking about homophobia in the black community, even though he had been critical of McClurkin at the time.

There is definitely an attitude difference between this guy and the "arrrgh McClurkin" crowd. I can tell from the lack of unwavering contempt in his statements, i.e. his willingness to give Obama credit for things, lack of rage, etc.

[mondo joe]

62. You still know shit about the LGBT community, and clearly don't give a shit about

us except to get our votes.

[ruggerson]

61. The word is triangulation

it is why he is not a transformative candidate.

History shows us that if Obama governs as he campaigns, he would be more of a Bill Clinton or a Richard Nixon figure than he is a "movement" President.

What we need in this country right now is someone far more daring and more partisan, someone who will actually lead, someone to take the fight to the opposition and beat them, not someone who will attempt to accommodate and co-opt them.

[Duncan Grant]

63. Obama is like the guy who dates two boyfriends at once.

Eventually, Obama will have to choose between the two. Guess who it'll be?

I don't think he will abandon the McClurkins and Caldwells who have endorsed/supported him (and it should be easy for LGBT people to figure out which way the political winds are blowing).

[mondo joe]

65. This, and the "Britney/Christina Effect" are my favoritest analyses.

:-)

[NMMNG]

73. We know darn well which one he'll choose,

and who will take it up the backside. Again.

[Bluebear]

79. I have no doubt whom he would choose.

[readmoreoften]

64. But I know a gay person and that one gay person says Obama is the most awesomist.

So it can't be an issue! And my wife's brother-in-law's neighbor, with whom I am very close, is gay and he hasn't mentioned it at all! If it was important to him, he'd probably put a sign on his lawn condemning Obama for his ex-gay shenanigans.

And there are a lot of trolls on DU who slap up a rainbow avatar or pink triangle avatar to give the appearance of more gay support. Don't they count?

:sarcasm:

[Maven]

66. K/R

[hulklogan]

68. Wait a minute...A straight person told me that nobody cares about McClurkin anymore

And the only gay people who are "wary" about Senator Obama's McClurkin connection are people here on DU.

Is there a straight person around who would like to tell me what else to believe?

[jackson_dem]

70. Obama can't be trusted on this issue

[FredScuttle]

71. Obama '08: Reaching Out For Bigot Votes....By Any Means Necessary

n/t

[avrdream]

82. Nail on the head.

[bobbolink]

72. "People don't know what to make of that"

Umm, I think they actually DO know.

Integrity still counts, Barack.

[NMMNG]

76. We certainly *do* know what to make of that

And it's appalling.

[David Zephyr]

80. I'm gay and I am supporting Obama because the Clintons betrayed my community.

Barack Obama will be a great president for the GLBT community. Period.

[FredScuttle]

83. Will Obama be consulting his good friend, the "ex-gay" clown Donnie McClurkin, on LGBT matters?

After all, he sided with the "ex-gay" clown bigot over the protestations of numerous LGBT groups. Hmmmm.

[David Zephyr]

87. Sweetheart, you need to upload a new dance toon to your ipod.

I do appreciate you keeping it alive. Barack made a mistake and Donnie certainly took advantage of the situation, but Barack who knows discrimination first-hand, would make your proud FredScuttle.

Your friend,

DZ

[mondo joe]

89. "Barack made a mistake".

Then why not admit it?

[Alexander]

95. I asked the same question

About Hillary's IWR vote.

[mondo joe]

97. I guess if she thought it was a mistake she'd say so. I assume the same about Obama.

So I don't understand why his defenders are saying he made a mistake if he doesn't say it.

[Bluebear]

99. Yeah, the answer to throwing gays under the bus is always Hillary's war vote

[NMMNG]

100. You can start a thread about Hillary and her IWR vote if you would like

This thread is about Obama and his "ex-gay" pals.

[Bluebear]

102. Gays don't matter to that poster, evidentment.

[NMMNG]

106. They don't matter to Barack Obama either

:shrug:

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

108. We matter as much to Obama as those people shivering in the cold mattered to Rezko

Which took place in Obama's district, 5 weeks with no heat in the dead of winter.

[Bluebear]

114. :nodding:

[bobbolink]

119. Exactly! Obama is no MLK when it comes to poverty! All show and no go!

No way will I vote for him, against my own best interests!

I'm done with the lesser of two weavils.

[mondo joe]

88. "I just know he's going to leave his wife so we can be together!"

He's not.

He's made his commitment, and it's not to us.

[totodeinhere]

101. Bill Clinton broke his promise to give unfettered membership in the military to gays.

Obama will try to be a great president for everybody, including the GLBT community.

But in the mean time, as you said, let us not forget that the Clinton's are far from perfect on GLBT issues. Bill betrayed the GLBT community by breaking his campaign promise to allow gays to join the military. Instead he installed a homophobic policy called DADT.

So why are some people intent on bashing only Obama on GLBT issues when the Clintons are far worse than Obama on these very same issues?

[mondo joe]

104. Bill made progress, and many gays are grateful for that. If you are gay and wat to vote for a

homophobe ass-kisser, go ahead. We're not all that willing to be victims.

It my have escaped your notice, but Bill Clinton isn't running for office. His wife is - and she's the ONLY one of the 3 candidates who is not opposed to same sex MARRIAGE.

[totodeinhere]

109. DADT is not progress.

And Obama opposes DADT, unlike Clinton, who instigated it. And his wife Hillary supported him on that.

And BTW, Hillary does not support gay marriage. Check out the following link.

http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2006/02/22/4

"The executive director of the Empire State Pride Agenda gay rights group has described Sen. Hillary Clinton as "a complete disappointment," raising the prospect that some in the LGBT community may stop supporting her political career due to her opposition to same-sex marriage."

[mondo joe]

111. That is utterly untrue. DADT was a refuge that allowed many gay men and lesbians

to serve. It unfairly compromised them, but for those who opted to serve it was better than before.

That's what progress is quite often - incremental improvements.

And HRC is not opposed to same sex marriage.

[Bluebear]

115. HRC also favors repealing DADT

[totodeinhere]

116. She does now. So does Obama.

But the difference is that Obama has always opposed DADT, but Senator Clinton used to support it back when Bill instigated it rather than follow through on his campaign promise to allow prople who are openly gay full membership in the military.

[mondo joe]

123. And since Obama has me himself beholden to religious bigots I don't share your

faith in him.

[totodeinhere]

126. The problem is...

that you fault Obama for his less than perfect record on GLBT issues, yet you give Clinton a pass for her less than perfect record on GBLT issues. Why the double standard?

[mondo joe]

127. No double standard.

I don't expect a perfect position out of anyone, frankly.

Bill Clinton did a lot of good for LGBTs. DOMA was dreadful, but I'm not forgetting the good. And m tae was alwaus that Hillary was more progressive on this than Bill.

I think I know who Clinton is and what to expect from her on this matter.

I think Obama says a lot of good things - but when push came to shove, he gave one religious bigot a free platform ad has been working with another.

So I don't find Obama trustworthy on GLBT issues. He's trying to carry along two groups, and it's not going to work. And when it doesn't work, who's he going to choose? Not the LGBT community.

Clinton has shown me progress. Obama hasn't.

I don't know how else to express it but to say I feel more confident about investing with Clinton than Obama.

Don't know if that answers your question to your satisfaction.

[totodeinhere]

117. It's frustrating trying to talk to a brick wall.

Here is another link since you ignored the first one that I posted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Hillary_Rodham_Clinton#GLBT_issues

"On December 7, 2003, in an interview with John Roberts of CBS News, Senator Clinton expressed her opposition to same-sex marriage while affirming her support for some form of civil unions for homosexual couples."

[mondo joe]

122. Your link doesn't counter reality. DADT was a step forward. It wasn't a great

solution and it continued to place an unjust burden on gays. But it gave us more options and a little respite.

[Bluebear]

110. "Obama will try to be a great president for everybody" Yeah, right. Nice talk.

his actions have caused us to think otherwise.

[Lucinda]

86. So is the "Hetero Chick Sitting in the TN Mountains Community"

:hi: I think I'm it's only member, but I am very wary.

[NMMNG]

91. Hey there!

:hi:

[Lucinda]

93. Hiya!

:hi:

[CyberPieHole]

107. K&R for Donnie McClurkin...n/t

[NMMNG]

112. And

Kirbyjohn Caldwell

[okasha]

120. It's the Caldwell fiasco

that makes it impossible to claim that McClurkin was a mistake or a fluke.

Either Obama really is pandering to homophobes (which means it's not a mistake) or his judgement is really bad (which means it's not a fluke.)

[PervezClinton]

113. Well, my goodness, why shouldn't they be? Obama can talk to Ms. Thang's hand!

[robbedvoter]

118. I am surprised they touched him! he will complain!

[NMMNG]

129. Hey Bluebear

Your friend was asking about you. :hi:

[Bluebear]

130. ohhhh?

[NMMNG]

134. Indeed

He's got a dirty mouth though.

[awaysidetraveler]

131. Bluebear, what exactly do you think the Bush/Caldwell/Obama connection is?

[Sandaasu]

132. I'll still take him over Hillary. At least he's fully against DOMA.

She even lies about why it was put into place. When it gets down to it though, no one currently in the race really stands out for us, with only Edwards perhaps having a slight edge.

[UALRBSofL]

135. LGBT support isn't in Baracks best interest

So you'll never hear him say he supports legalization of marriage, not now, not ever. That being said, I'll vote for him in the GE if it isn't Hillary. We will be stuck in the stone ages 4 more years with another repug in office.

[terrya]

151. Once again, let's be realistic about DOMA.

DOMA would have happened if Obama was President at the time, if John Edwards was President at the time, if John Kerry was President at the time, if Ted Kennedy was President at the time, if Al Gore was President at the time.

It wouldn't have made a damned bit of difference which Democrat was in the White House at the time. Political realities being what they were, and given that DOMA was passed during an election campaign year, any Democratic President seeking re-election would have signed DOMA.

[QC]

136. I'd sooner write in Elmer Fudd than vote for Donnie's buddy. n/t

[TriMetFan]

137. This is the main reason....

Obama lost my vote. I also don't plan on voting for him if he get's the nom.

[McCamy Taylor]

138. This is a Buchanan 1972 dirty trick, the bad endorsment that has to be repudiated strategy.

Please see my journals. Some one--I think Karl Rove and Pat Buchanan--is using everyone of the dirty tricks that Buchanan developed for Nixon in 1972.

[Maven]

139. This is not a unilateral move. Caldwell's support wasn't unsolicited.

He has been officially involved with the Obama campaign going back into at least the middle of last year.

[McCamy Taylor]

140. I'll he never told them about this anti-gay activity. This is no coincidence.

There have been too many dirty tricks and this fits the pattern of all the rest, which are of the Divide and Conquer, Circular Firing Squad, "Let's set up another Chicago 1968 so the Dems will not be able to get behind one candidate" attack.

The level of infighting at DU and between the Democratic candidates has been artificially elevated by the press and by moles.

Caldwell knew full well that this was going to embarrass Obama. He is very good friend to Bush.

[Maven]

142. I don't think it would have mattered, frankly.

They knew about McClurkin, they heard the outcry from GLBTs and their allies and still they allowed him to perform and deliver his homophobic harangue a full five days later.

If Caldwell's intention were to catch Obama in a trap, why did he scrub his website after people took notice? It took me about ten minutes to find that site using Google. Unless they're grossly incompetent, I find it hard to believe Obama's people aren't doing such basic vetting of the people they choose to represent them at official campaign events.

[McCamy Taylor]

141. Please see my thread "The Press vs The 2008 Democratic Primary"

This is just more of the divide and conquer bs that the MSM is crapping all over our primary.

:grr:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4234393&mesg_id=4234393

[Maven]

143. Yes, except your theory is incorrect for the reasons I stated above.

[and-justice-for-all]

146. This is why he is no longer my second choice..nt

[ErnestoG]

147. Obama linked to friend of a relative of an aquaintence of a....

a second cousin who once went to summer camp with a homophobe!

OOOOOHHH NNNOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

[Bluebear]

149. He hired anti-gay preachers to MC his concerts. Now, you on ignore.

So don't bother replying. I've seen my share of Obama operatives who register here and insult everyone to last a lifetime.

[cboy4]

150. You sound very unintelligent and you might even be a

bigot.

How does that make you feel ErnestoG?

[ErnestoG]

156. A bigot for standing up for Obama and cheap smears?

That's an odd description of "bigot". What dictionary did you get that one from?

I'm telling you that I have seen nothing...NOTHING...that reveals Obama as an antigaay bigot and I think your cheap and underhanded insinuations that he is, are despicable.

[terrya]

152. Thanks for taking our concerns seriously.

Oh, by the way...

:sarcasm:, in case you're too dense to see that.

Asshat.

[Neshanic]

148. You Obama supporters should just get behind Hillary. It's for the greater good. Sound familiar?

Well welcome to gay Democrat land.

The item really should read "Gay Community Still Wary Of All Democratic Candidates".

Don't mind us, the bus that you throw us under while asking for our support should be coming by very soon. It's a tradition you know.

[ErnestoG]

157. Quite the unfortunate tradition...

I didnt know this previously, but you may be on to something.