Obama is no JFK....

[BooScout]

I mean come on..I can handle debates on the issues and even the mudslinging we have had...but some people are saying that Obama is the new JFK. It's time to speak up on this.

To be blunt, Obama is no JFK. I will give Obama credit for being a pretty good orator....but, people need to understand that a good orator does not necessarily equate to being the best politician for the job. Evangelists are great orators and they give people chills but I would hope that most of us are sensible enough to see through the hype and look closely at the substance.

I realize that America loves a hero. And Obama certainly seems to fit that mold......at least to many younger voters....and a few older ones as well who seem to be star struck. I know he's for change........but, my question to you is..........what person in his/her right mind in the US isn't for change at this point? And what exactly is this change he wants to give us so badly? I've not heard or seen this expounded upon in any substantial way.

I hear a lot of comparisons to the young and seemingly inexperienced Kennedy. But people, Kennedy was far from inexperienced. He had been groomed most of his life to become President….first, in his brother’s shadow and then when Joe was killed, he moved to the first position.

Kennedy was a WWII veteran. His father had been Ambassador to the UK leading up to WWII and JFK saw first hand the lead up to war. He formulated what would later become his Foreign Policy when he traveled the world as a US Congressman & later as a US Senator.

But Kennedy is also a myth. One that his premature death perpetuated. His assassination in office gave him that hero’s death that wiped away all his flaws….and Kennedy did have flaws……the Bay of Pigs was a pretty damned big mistake. His escalation of the Vietnam War (sorry Police Action) is another. He wasn’t perfect. He made mistakes. But the golden aura of his name seems to carry so much promise that over 40 years after his death we are still looking for someone to fill his shoes.

I happen to think that Ted and Caroline are wishful thinkers when comparing Obama to JFK. Other than being relatives of JFK what qualifies them to name the successor to Camelot? You may argue that his own brother and his daughter know best…….but, I say the choice is to be made by the people of America (and probably Hollywood). It also doesn’t hurt that Ted Sorenson is writing speeches for Obama. No wonder he reminds people of JFK. You can have politicians, relatives of politicians and Hollywood Stars endorse you until the cows come home……….every candidate can claim endorsements by the famous and the not so famous, by the wise and not so wise…..does someone else telling you how to vote make your decision for you? If it does than there is no hope.

You need to understand that Ted Kennedy has his own agenda in endorsing Obama. He’s not happy with what he sees as the Clinton’s control of the Democratic Party. When they ‘took control’ Kennedy was the ESTABLISHMENT that so many Obama supporters say they are so against today.

Kerry’s agenda is similar. He’s still pissed that the Clinton’s didn’t help him as much as they could in 2004 and they sat back and let him lose so Hillary could win in 2008. I have news for Kerry. He lost 2004 because he was weak. He can’t blame his 2004 loss on the Clintons. He needs to take a good long look at himself in the mirror to see why he lost the election.

You as voters need to research the substance of each candidate. What has formulated where they stand on the issues. Their experience. Their educational background. Their political alliances and feuds. Their political and their personal history and how they arrived at where they are today.

[sunonmars]

1. well put and thank you

[sloppyjoe25s]

71. Abraham Lincoln - served only one term in House of Representatives

Lincolns single house term (and only political experience before becomming our greatest president) - was mostly remembered for opposing the mexican war whigs... Like Obama - he had judgement more than raw Washington Experience

I agree Myths are silly - but Obama is an incredible man, and the right candidate for the job.

Edwards is a good man too - but he has previously also been on wrong side of many issues - co-sponsored Iraq war - which Billary Clinton voted for too "with conviction" - and Obama opposed. Edwards and Billary both supported Bush on 'Bankruptcy Reform' than hurt the poor - which Obama opposed and voted against.

Obama = LANDSLIDE - if he gets the nomination....BUT BILLARY is incredibly powerful. He/She have huge media muscle, and he/she strongly believe they are "entitled" to be back in the white house...

Edwards can be effective as the "Al Gore of Poverty"

Billary Clinton was DISGUSTING in the way he/she (they are one man/woman sandwich) race-baited people before SC - appealing to the lowest form of Bigotry and Fear - trying to "tarnish" Obama as the "black candidate" - then pander and pay old friend black ministers to "get out their flocks" -- well the flocks sure got out - and they put Billary in her/his place!!!

The BILLARY MACHINE - is the past. and represents all the worst of politics.

I'm a white 39 year old and MY 73 YEAR OLD MOTHER AND I - who loved Kucinich - BOTH LOVE OBAMA.

He is not some compromise - he is quite simply the greatest candidate for president in My LIFETIME - and probably 3rd best in my Mom's lifetime.

We should all be incredibly proud of Obama - he makes us proud to be Americans again.

[Fresh_Start]

74. since you are citing Lincoln, here's Lincoln's own words

"We may congratulate ourselves that this cruel war is nearing its end.
It has cost a vast amount of treasure and blood. . . .
It has indeed been a trying hour for the Republic; but
I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes
me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war,
corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places
will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong
its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth
is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.
I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety
of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war.
God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless."

The passage appears in a letter from Lincoln to (Col.) William F. Elkins, Nov. 21, 1864.

Both Clinton and Obama are firmly under corporate control. Which is, in my mind, the source of virtually every policy error during my adulthood.

[sloppyjoe25s]

75. Judgement Counts

Billary's Judgement:


unitedagainsthillary.wordpress.com

Obama opposed the war from Day 1.

Plus she supported Bush's 'Bankruptcy Reform' law "No Credit Card Company Left Behind" - which Obama strongly opposed and voted against. She now says she "regrets it" (like her war vote), and "voted for it but hoped it would not pass" - Nice work again Billary.


Obama is not in corporate control - he has more small $$ donors than any candidate in US history - including my meager $35 bucks. Sure he has some larger contributors - but that hardly makes the case hes under corporate control.

Hillary has more lobbyist endorsements and more drug company $$ than any candidate - Democrat or Republican.

The Choice is clear - OBAMA - the greatest candidate in my Lifetime. A brilliant man of deep honor an integrity.


Comments from www.ObamaTags.com

[cd3dem]

80. How about the judgment to make real-estate deals with Rezco?

[sloppyjoe25s]

84. Give me a break

He and his wife bought a piece of land next to their house. OMG - SO EVIL.

Compared to the long list of Billary's - this is almost funny it's all people can come up with against Obama. Compared to her voting for a war - just so she could "look tough" - for her forever planned white house bid with Bill? Literally hundreds of thousands of people are dead - and she contributed with her vote. And you bring up a land deal?!? You must be drinkin' some fancy coffee dude. Biden referred accurately to the Iraq War as the "single worst foreign policy decision in US history". And you bring up a totally legal purchase of a parcel of land in Illinois??? So what if Rezko is slimey - to compare the two as issues of Judgement is utterly ridiculous.

Iraq has brought us our current economic crisis, and crippled our budgetary ability to respond. But you think a land purchase that is totally legal is the same. Uh huh. Right.

Oh and his "present" votes in Illinois.... Yawn!

Maybe you want to call him a "big money sell out?" - try again. Most money from small $$ donors in US History.

Obama makes us proud to be Americans - and reaches people that many Dems don't even know exist.

Obama is the best candidate for president in my lifetime. My father - a life long socialist supports him - my 73 year old mother - a die hard Kucinich lover - supports Obama.

[neutron]

87. HRC is closer to the ideals of JFK

Her list of credits goes into infinity. She has worked her tail off for
children and working people.

She was the FIRST to try to do something about Health Care. Long before
Michael Moore came along and made it "chic."

The second Bill moved into office, she got going - it was UNPRECEDENTED
for a first lady to operate as an activist.

The woman was a radical. She learned the hard way to hide it behind a
corporate dress code.

But when she gets into office, I guarantee, all hell is going to break loose.
HRC is driven.

[Nedsdag]

90. You're right. She is closer to the ideals of JFK.

John F. Kerry.

After all, both of them voted for IWR.

Kerry regretted it. Has Hillary?

[GoldieAZ49]

91. This is well known and exactly why

it will turn out record numbers of Republicans and Independents.

I can just see the McCain ad;

Pictures of UBL cut to Hillary stump speech "I'm your girl"

Pictures of Kim Jong cut to Hillary stump speech "I'm your girl"

Pictures of Iran leaders cut to Hillary stump speech "I'm your girl"

etc etc

I think you get the idea

[sloppyjoe25s]

95. No experience - blew health care - blew education

Billary has only two initiatives to her name:

1. She completely screwed up Health Care reform prospects for over a decade - by completely miss handling it during Bill's presidency. She poisoned the whole national debate to the point where the majority of Americans think universal health care is a bad idea.

2. She lead an education initiative while Bill was Governor of Arkansaas - And managed to drop Arkansaas from 42nd to 49th in education results.

She has no major accomplishment to her name in the Senate.

And her supporters say she has "experience?"

You get alot of politics and alot of NO CONVICTIONS with Billary.

And yes, you get it all on Day 1!

[Faygo Kid]

105. Michael Moore made health care "chic?"

You're going to have to avoid patently insane statements like that if you are going to persuade anyone about your position.

[cd3dem]

93. bought a house $300,000 below market value... big deal!

and then he bought land next from Rezco... nice payback for Obama by writing letters of recommendation for Rezco... I would write a few letter for that kind of money... if it weren't dirty money...

and as to character... what did Obama say when Hillary brought up Rezco at the debate?

denied having anything to do with Rezco but 5 hours of lawyer work... and made it sound like he was just doing what he was told... LIES!

[sloppyjoe25s]

97. Again - give me a break

oooh... he got a deal on a house and wrote a letter!!! Even compared to the least of Billary's dealings for influence and personal gain this is silly and trivial.

Ok though - even if you subtract 5 points from Obama for this supposed horrible act - and you still get the best candidate of my lifetime (I'm born in 1969).

Dude... can i have a sip of the fancy coffee you are drinkin'?

You cannot seriously want to imply that this compares to Billary's support of the Iraq War? Of her support for Bush to re-write the Bankruptcy laws for the Credit Card Companies? "No Credit Card Company Left Behind?"

You cannot seriously be prepared to say that. If so - I REALLY want that coffee...

Oh - and here is a pic of Hillary and her supporters:

[cd3dem]

106. 1969? my daughter is more mature than you and she is born in '89

wow.... you are a credit to the Obama campaign!

Add Rezco to his resume!

[indimuse]

110. posting again...for MOron's sake...like..ah ah duuuude...

Obama voted for war appropriations giving our money to Halliburton and Blackwater
Obama voted for war appropriations giving our money to Halliburton and Blackwater!Obama is a LIAR!
tp://davidsirota.com/index.php/mr-obama-goes-to-washi... /

3 ) "Then there is the Iraq War. Obama says that during his 2004 election campaign he “loudly and vigorously” opposed the war. As The New Yorker noted, “many had

been drawn initially by Obama’s early opposition to the invasion.” But “when his speech at the antiwar rally in 2002 was quietly removed from his campaign Web site,”

the magazine reported, “activists found that to be an ominous sign”–one that foreshadowed Obama’s first months in the Senate. Indeed, through much of 2005, Obama

said little about Iraq, displaying a noticeable deference to Washington’s bipartisan foreign policy elite, which had pushed the war. One of Obama’s first votes as a

senator was to confirm Condoleezza Rice as Secretary of State despite her integral role in pushing the now-debunked propaganda about Iraq’s WMD"

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%


Hillary on the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Bill
by Crystal Pattersonin News5/24/2007 8:54 PMHillary:

"Tonight I voted against the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Bill because it fails to compel the President to give our troops a new strategy in Iraq. I believe

that the President should begin a phased redeployment of our troops out of Iraq and abandon this escalation. I fully support our troops, and wish the President had

followed the will of the people and signed the original bill we sent which both funded the troops and set a new course of phased redeployment. But the President

vetoed Congress's new strategy and so Congress must reject the President's failed policies. I will also continue to press with Senator Byrd for our legislation to end

the authorization of the war in Iraq.

While I am deeply disappointed that the supplemental does not provide for a new course in Iraq, I want to recognize the many worthy parts of this bill: funding to help

those sickened in the aftermath of 9/11, additional relief for Katrina and Rita victims, homeland security funds for high-threat cities like New York City, resources to

protect parts of New York affected by recent flooding, $650 million for the State Children's Health Insurance Program, and the first federal minimum wage increase in

ten years. I support these measures but cannot support this Emergency Supplemental which will not change\
our course in Iraq."

<snip>
Obama voted for war appropriations giving our money to Halliburton and Blackwater. His latest bit of posturing S 433 allows the Bush Administration to suspend any

troop withdrawal!!!!Which if not suspended, still keeps the troops in Iraq for a long time to come? Also gave in to pressure from the Bush and lobbyists, Obama voted

for Bush's energy bill, sending more than $13 billion in subsidies and tax breaks to oil, coal, and nuclear companies. Obama was the Senate's biggest Democratic

advocate of subsidies for liquid coal, even though liquid coal produces twice the global warming pollution of the crude oil it's meant to Look at today headlines from AP

NEW YORK - Crude oil prices soared to $100 a barrel Wednesday for the first time, reaching that milestone amid an unshakeable view that global demand for oil and

petroleum products will outstrip supplies.
Obama is lost in the game of politics we cannto afford to let him learn in the White House!




Obama voted for war appropriations giving our money to Halliburton and Blackwater. His latest bit of posturing S 433 allows the Bush Administration to suspend any

troop withdrawal!!!!Which if not suspended, still keeps the troops in Iraq for a long time to come? Also gave in to pressure from the Bush and lobbyists, Obama voted

for Bush's energy bill, sending more than $13 billion in subsidies and tax breaks to oil, coal, and nuclear companies. Obama was the Senate's biggest Democratic

advocate of subsidies for liquid coal, even though liquid coal produces twice the global warming pollution of the crude oil it's meant to Look at today headlines from AP

NEW YORK - Crude oil prices soared to $100 a barrel Wednesday for the first time, reaching that milestone amid an unshakeable view that global demand for oil and

petroleum products will outstrip supplies.
Obama is lost in the game of politics we cannto afford to let him learn in the White House!
Signature lines are currently turned off due to high traffic.

[Skittles]

111. please stop with the BILLARY bullshit

it makes you sound juvenile and sexist

[Fresh_Start]

83. I was anti-war including anti-Afghanistan war

and I've made decisions affecting other peoples lives in my career.

I will tell you that even with my own personal anti-war stance, I do not know that I would have voted anti-war knowing that I was responsible for the lives of millions.

Its very easy to say you are anti-war when you are not actually making the decision.

Obama in Congress has voted for war funding
Obama has said that military action against Iran is not off the table.

Not convinced.

[sallyseven]

100. He never had to make the choice in the Senate

He was not bombarded with pictures and threats from the bad guys. Who at that time and place just months after the nit wit was elected that he would have the balls to lie to the congress? No one knew how devious he was. The public backed him with high approval ratings. Some people knew he was a poop head but most did not. The Repuks just love wars.

[indimuse]

109. Obama voted for war appropriations giving our money to Halliburton and Blackwater!Obama is a LIAR!

tp://davidsirota.com/index.php/mr-obama-goes-to-washi... /

3 ) "Then there is the Iraq War. Obama says that during his 2004 election campaign he “loudly and vigorously” opposed the war. As The New Yorker noted, “many had

been drawn initially by Obama’s early opposition to the invasion.” But “when his speech at the antiwar rally in 2002 was quietly removed from his campaign Web site,”

the magazine reported, “activists found that to be an ominous sign”–one that foreshadowed Obama’s first months in the Senate. Indeed, through much of 2005, Obama

said little about Iraq, displaying a noticeable deference to Washington’s bipartisan foreign policy elite, which had pushed the war. One of Obama’s first votes as a

senator was to confirm Condoleezza Rice as Secretary of State despite her integral role in pushing the now-debunked propaganda about Iraq’s WMD"

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%


Hillary on the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Bill
by Crystal Pattersonin News5/24/2007 8:54 PMHillary:

"Tonight I voted against the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Bill because it fails to compel the President to give our troops a new strategy in Iraq. I believe

that the President should begin a phased redeployment of our troops out of Iraq and abandon this escalation. I fully support our troops, and wish the President had

followed the will of the people and signed the original bill we sent which both funded the troops and set a new course of phased redeployment. But the President

vetoed Congress's new strategy and so Congress must reject the President's failed policies. I will also continue to press with Senator Byrd for our legislation to end

the authorization of the war in Iraq.

While I am deeply disappointed that the supplemental does not provide for a new course in Iraq, I want to recognize the many worthy parts of this bill: funding to help

those sickened in the aftermath of 9/11, additional relief for Katrina and Rita victims, homeland security funds for high-threat cities like New York City, resources to

protect parts of New York affected by recent flooding, $650 million for the State Children's Health Insurance Program, and the first federal minimum wage increase in

ten years. I support these measures but cannot support this Emergency Supplemental which will not change\
our course in Iraq."

<snip>
Obama voted for war appropriations giving our money to Halliburton and Blackwater. His latest bit of posturing S 433 allows the Bush Administration to suspend any

troop withdrawal!!!!Which if not suspended, still keeps the troops in Iraq for a long time to come? Also gave in to pressure from the Bush and lobbyists, Obama voted

for Bush's energy bill, sending more than $13 billion in subsidies and tax breaks to oil, coal, and nuclear companies. Obama was the Senate's biggest Democratic

advocate of subsidies for liquid coal, even though liquid coal produces twice the global warming pollution of the crude oil it's meant to Look at today headlines from AP

NEW YORK - Crude oil prices soared to $100 a barrel Wednesday for the first time, reaching that milestone amid an unshakeable view that global demand for oil and

petroleum products will outstrip supplies.
Obama is lost in the game of politics we cannto afford to let him learn in the White House!




Obama voted for war appropriations giving our money to Halliburton and Blackwater. His latest bit of posturing S 433 allows the Bush Administration to suspend any

troop withdrawal!!!!Which if not suspended, still keeps the troops in Iraq for a long time to come? Also gave in to pressure from the Bush and lobbyists, Obama voted

for Bush's energy bill, sending more than $13 billion in subsidies and tax breaks to oil, coal, and nuclear companies. Obama was the Senate's biggest Democratic

advocate of subsidies for liquid coal, even though liquid coal produces twice the global warming pollution of the crude oil it's meant to Look at today headlines from AP

NEW YORK - Crude oil prices soared to $100 a barrel Wednesday for the first time, reaching that milestone amid an unshakeable view that global demand for oil and

petroleum products will outstrip supplies.
Obama is lost in the game of politics we cannto afford to let him learn in the White House!

[Faygo Kid]

81. The letter is a FRAUD and a forgery

*sigh* I suppose we can expect more of this crap as the Lincoln Bicentennial approaches.

This letter is a well-known fraud. It doesn't even sound like Lincoln, but don't take my word for it. http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lincoln.asp

Try reality next time.

[Fresh_Start]

89. Ok, so that leaves Washington, Jefferson, and Eisenhower

warnings.

[NursesluvHillary]

102. In the Lincoln era

We didnt have WMDs.

We didnt need a President to repair the image of our country to the rest of the world. I want someone that has a relationship with the rest of the world.

Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton are very well liked/loved in many many countries around the world.

Hillary has the exprience to get things done. Obama is still learning. Infact he said when Hillary and Bill were supporting him for the US Senate that he used Hillary as a role model.

Obama may have been against going to war BUT he was not in the Senate to vote. Since arriving to the Senate he has voted the same way as Hillary on the Irac war.

I may disagree with Obama and think he whines too much. BUT if he is the Nominee I wll vote for him. There is no way I think this country could survive another 4 years or more of a GOP administration. Besides he and Hillary for the most part share the same views on most of the issues.

[burgundy floppy hat]

114. Obama is a poser, Lincoln was brilliant.

Lincoln, though, felt an obligation to the American people, was a brilliant man sworn to uphold the American philosophy of the founding fathers, the American form of governance.

Obama is a poser made of shaving cream.

Your analogy is incorrect.

[stray cat]

2. I have my own agenda for who I vote for and so does everyone else

I'm not sure most people are naive enough to vote for someone just because so and so likes them.... However, like reference letters for job applications endorsements are at least worth looking at.

[neutron]

49. so are the politics behind the endorsements

[Proud2BAmurkin]

3. Not by a long shot and the comparisons will hurt him

[Maven]

4. People will see through this myth building and hubris

Even journalists have approached the subject with a somewhat incredulous or even mocking tone:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4268936

[ingac70]

5. Two problems with the "flaws" you attribute to JFK....

The operations for the Bay of Pigs were already set up while Eisenhower was in office. It was the CIA's operation to fuck up. AND JFK had already arranged to bring home 1500 troops from Vietnam by Christmas 1963, a plan that was squashed by that scumbag LBJ immediately upon taking office.

Google IS your friend.

[BooScout]

23. I beg to differ......

Kennedy was President at the time of the Bay of Pigs and he made the decision to move forward with it. As Truman said......"The buck starts here".

As to Vietnam.........Kennedy send 16,000 troops and military advisors to Vietnam. He also authorized use of napalm, planes, etc. In 1963 the meddling of the Kennedy Administration allowed the overthrow of Diem by the South Vietnamense Military because Diem's idea of a neutral government may have involved communism. So while McNamara and LBJ hinted at a possible partial withdrawal by Kennedy, his sanctioned overthrow of Diem pretty much makes those plans sort of a policy reversal. At any rate, it was not a full withdrawal that may or may not have been plannned.

Yes, google can be a good friend..........but you sometimes need to read thru a lot of caca to get to the heart of the matter.

[ingac70]

33. hint at possible withdrawl by Kennedy? NSAM 263

http://www.jfklancer.com/NSAM263.html

[Joe Chi Minh]

35. No. That won't do at all. Presidents, too, have to work within certain constraints.

In the case of JFK and US Presidents, generally, however, within the constraints of the ambient lawlessness in the highest reaches of power in the US (the plutocracy who give the politicians their orders), rather than the laws. You see what you want to, yet miss the obvious, or rather try to put your own negative twist on JFK's actions.

This sentence illustrates my point clearly - so full of demurrals such as "hinted at", "possible partial", "pretty much", "sort of", "may or may not have..."! Speak your mind, man. You hate him!

"So while McNamara and LBJ hinted at a possible partial withdrawal by Kennedy, his sanctioned overthrow of Diem pretty much makes those plans sort of a policy reversal. At any rate, it was not a full withdrawal that may or may not have been plannned."

I'm sure I've been guilty of writing some pretty convoluted sentences in my time, but nothing quite as constipated as that. "Slippery" and "ever-decreasing circles" spring to mind. It seems you didn't clean off all that caca.

[rAVES]

104. Jesus.. you throw Kennedy under the bus to make your point.. for SHAME!!

[babylonsister]

6. He's never said he was, and reiterated that last night after SOTU.

So where's the beef? The Kennedys and others have made the comparison, he didn't.

[ingac70]

10. JFK's own kin made the comparison...

don't you know what they think doesn't mean a thing! ;)

[babylonsister]

13. IT's getting beyond absurd in here!

:crazy:

[ZinZen]

21. Agree....

I mean after "snub-gate" some folks have jumped on the crazy train and so has the media.

[krkaufman]

58. Sure. And saying that how he inspires people is reminiscent of JFK ...

... is not stating an equivalence, or even near equivalence, between the two. And the previous poster underscored Obama's own opinion on the matter, in limiting any comparison to a sense of idealism that the supporters may be looking for.

[JuniperLea]

79. How old was Caroline when her father died?

Six? Five? She's grown up with the same myth I did. Ted was a very intelligent man, but I fear he's killed more brain cells than most of us ever had in the first place. I can't think of the last meaningful thing he's done, except cower to Bush like the rest of them.

[Tammie]

7. Well said. nt

[ProSense]

8. Hillary got no endorsement from Kerry or Kennedy! n/t

[themaguffin]

9. Nobody is or will be JFK. Next strawman...

[Big Blue Marble]

11. Let's get this straight.

No one is saying he is JFK. They are saying he is a transformational candidate. JFK was a transformational candidate.
FDR was a transformational candidate. RR was a transformational candidate.

These are people who changed the dialogue of politics for their time. You can agree or disagree with their policies,
but you cannot ignore that each caused a political shift of major proportions.

Obama may also be this kind of transformational figure. Many in and out of politics see this this way. You and many others do not.
That was true for all the others above as well. There were FDR haters, JFK haters, and RR haters.
The haters did not stop the political powerhouses each man was.

Edward and Caroline Kennedy see the transformational qualities in Obama. They are excited about him.
They said so. They will keep saying so. And it will help others see it too.

[Saturday]

16. He hasn't been a transformational candidate so far.

Or is it just a hope he will turn into one?

[Big Blue Marble]

31. Like a speeding jet, you make have missed it.

IMHO He is a transformational candidate, win or lose this year.

[krkaufman]

59. Really? Sure seems to be.

Or is it that hope springs denial?

[Skittles]

112. it is disconcerting

I am reminded of the Washington Journal callers who say AH AM FAR BOOSH ONE HUNDERD PER CINT......it's just plain f***ing scary

[SammyWinstonJack]

19. Because some may not find Obama too be a "transformational" figure, they are Obama haters?

Is that what you are saying? If so, way to win friends and influence people. :thumbsup:

[Big Blue Marble]

28. Gawd, no that is not what I am saying.

This poster's OP is more than subtly disdainful of JFK, Edward Kennedy and BHO.
The goal of this post is to minimize all three men.

I think that this post is hateful. Not that all those who choose not support Obama are hateful.

Saying that, there is amazing hatred of Obama on DU.

[BooScout]

32. Oh pardon me....

First of all the word is disdainful with a 'd'.........and I am not disdainful of Kennedy at all. I grew up loving the Kennedys as any proper Democrat should. But I also realize that a whole lot of Camelot is a myth. When someone dies young or before their time we have a tendency to remember them through rose tinted glasses.

Kennedy did have flaws. He also had a hell of a lot of good things that he did. He vastly advanced the American Civil Rights Movement and he established the Peace Corps to name a couple.

If you want to know what's hateful, it's whenever anyone around here says they don't agree with something said about Obama.... people like you crop up and start pointing fingers and crying "Obama Hater". If that's the best you can do to foment a counter to the point being made then you are never going to get anywhere.

[Big Blue Marble]

36. I did not call the OP an Obama hater.

I said that the OP was disdainful (Thanks for the correction.)

I know that Kennedy had flaws, as did FDR and certainly RR. And Obama has flaws, some big enough to drive
a mac truck through. He is still a transformational figure. And the OP premise was totally wrong. I am calling him
on his false premise. You may have missed my argument in your need to jump down my throat.

No one is saying that BHO is JFK reincarnated. We are saying that they share qualities that inspire people
to see the world differently.

[BooScout]

41. You inferred as much......

You said this post (meaning the original post was hateful and you referenced JFK haters and Obama haters. It certainly implied ther term.

FYI I do like Obama (as I like all the Democratic candidates) but I am increasingly turned off by many of his supporters and their increasing inability to handle any criticism of their candidate without flinging names and accusations at those with differing points of view than their own.

[Big Blue Marble]

45. If that is how you interpreted my comments, I apologize.

But I hope you will agree that there are many Obama haters here.
I grew up with FDR haters and JFK haters. I, myself, am a RR hater.

My point was there will always be people who passionately revile transformational leaders.
That has no effect on their success.








And the spelling thing- I think you meant the not ther.

[BooScout]

50. Apology accepted......

And as to ther............that will teach me not to use the spellcheck.:P

[jbnow]

66. Just wanted to say

I knew what you meant in the first place and it was well put

[1776Forever]

20. Great post!!! You are so right on here - Obama is what we need right now!

I lived through JFK's campaign and the too short administration. He could, like Obama, bring thousands of people to hear his message. He had transformational ideas, as Obama does. I would like to see Obama as my next President and believe that Obama would listen to the people more then Hillary and Bill will. Hillary is too secretive and as she has aligned herself with Bill's Administration I believe she will continue NAFTA and the Communications Act of 1996 that gave Murdock the open door policy to control what we hear, read, and see on our Media. Nothing you say can change my mind!

GObama!!!!!!!!!! :yourock:

[BooScout]

25. What a word.......

Exactly what has he transformed?

[Big Blue Marble]

37. He is transforming American politics before our eyes. n/t

[BooScout]

42. How?

I keep asking how and I get no substance.

[OutsourcingSucks]

64. Its because the are struck with catch words and phrases but no substance

What has Barack Hussein Obama accomplished??

[Steely_Dan]

39. The Operative Word is....

"may." He may or may not be a transformational president.

Secondly, just because Edward and Caroline "see" this quality, does not make it so.

Having said all that...good luck.

-P

[Joe Chi Minh]

12. I agree with your main theme, but find fault with two of your assertions:

Was he was not effectively hustled into The Bay of Pigs fiasco by the military-industrial and CIA, against his better judgement? If it's his refusal to send in air cover - we differ markedly in ideology, you appearing to lean towards the neocon persuasion.

And, yes, again, no doubt at the instance of the aforesaid parties, he sent in putative observers, but apparently regretted the way it was developing, and was going to withdraw US troops from Vietnam. One of the reasons a magic bullet was later to circumnavigate the interior of his limousine in Dallas. Closing down the CIA would also have been frowned upon.

[BooScout]

27. check my response in post 23 n/t

[balantz]

14. And with all of those strengths

can you imagine JFK in a debate today with our three candidates? Another area Obama would differ in.

[Meshuga]

15. I agree, he is Obama

but: http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/samgrahamfelsen/CGjgy

[allinktup]

17. His daughter seems to disagree with you

While he is not the "new JFK" his politics of uniting the country is very reminiscent of JFK.

It's time to put the partisan BS aside and start working together for EVERYONE, not just us, and not just them.

This is still the USA, one country...

[Branjor]

29. His daughter was 5 years old when JFK was killed....

She and John Jr. remember him so well that while growing up they referred to him as "The President."

[allinktup]

47. And... So the OP knows JFK better?

Maybe she was only 5 when she knew him. So what. You don't think that her family has told her all about him?

You think she doesn't have MUCH more insight into him than ANYONE on here?

give me a break.

[Branjor]

53. Give yourself a break....

Maybe the OP does know better how JFK made him/her feel as a president than Caroline does. That depends on the OP's age, if it is much greater than Caroline's.

I was 10 when JFK was killed and I was aware of his presidency and the optimistic feel of the country around me at the time. I probably would know even better if I was older, but Obama doesn't give me that feeling at all. I think that the people who live under a president and are not so close to the president as to be sheltered by the White House, may have the greatest insight into how that particular president affected people in general and their lives. This is borne out by the endorsement written by Caroline herself in which she says people TOLD HER how inspired they were by her father, *not* that she was inspired by her father herself and decided that Obama felt just like him.

[allinktup]

54. That's okay for her to feel that way... He was still HER father

And unless you lived in the Kennedy household, you can not possibly know any more about her father than her.

Do you think you could know more about MY father than me? I wouldn't pretend to know more about YOUR family than you.

Give yourself a break.

[ZinZen]

18. Obama himself when asked about references

"being handled the mantle" stated he was very uncomfortable and did not agree with that assertion. Obama said this last night after SOTU with Matthews and Olbermann.

[allinktup]

51. Obama espouses to many of the same beliefs

It's hard to understand how an overwhelming majority want change in the country from politics as usual, dirty politics and the dirty laundry that goes along with it and yet I see people embracing those same things they don't want. Hillary Clinton is not a change candidate. Obama and Edwards are. Clinton is a great politician who has had 35 years to make change. And she was successful with a few things and very unsuccessful other parts of her agenda. My belief is that we may get the same kind of politics we've seen from her and her husband and do people want that? I don't. She hasn't changed much if she is using the same kind of divisive politics that she used in the 90's. Don't get me wrong she didn't cause the fault line between the Ds and the Rs but she sure didn't do enough to stop the Washington gridlock. If Obama represents anything it is a change from what we've had already. Holding onto so much of the past will get you more of the past. Do we want that? In conclusion, Obama really hasn't done anything that rises to the level of outrage. That's what you want in a candidate. I like Bill but he is too divisive for my taste and he reminds of a kind of Bush within his own party. That can't be good for this country.

[suston96]

22. And to keep repeating: a President just like my father is thoughtless, at the very least. nt.

[NYCGirl]

26. You're calling Caroline Kennedy thoughtless?

:thumbsdown:

[Iwasthere]

24. Yes, let's work togther now

After that amazing endorsement HC should have just said, "Bill, Obama is what our country REALLY needs right now, I'm stepping down for the good of the country."

[Freida5]

30. Kerry just wants Dems to lose in the fall so he can run again.

Kennedy is going along for the ride

[madrchsod]

34. so that is their opinion

what their motives were can be debated till the end of time but since that is how they feel, so be it. one can take it or leave it. myself i think it is a good endorsement for obama but the one that i was more impressed with is tom hayden`s and his reasons why.

[Tweed]

38. Ah yes, you know but his brother and daughter don't

I see the light!

Thank you!

[BooScout]

44. Thank you for not comprehending the point of the post........

Ted Kennedy (nor Cxroline), despite being a Kennedy does not hold the right to name the sucessor to Camelot (if there ever is one). That right belongs to the American People and to what future we choose to make.

[Clinton Crusader]

40. VERY well put AND a big thank you

from a huge JFK admirer

[ErnestoG]

43. It just slays you, doesn't it.

That someone with Obama's charisma, likability and vision comes along...invigorates, even enflames the youth vote, excites hope for a new and better way....and leaves your establishment DLC relic pretty much in the dust.

I guess I would be posting thread after thread of flamebait on Obama if I were you, too....

[Thrill]

46. I think the Kennedys would know more than you

[Andy823]

48. Couldn't have said it better myself

Thank you for posting this.

[angie_love]

52. Tell that to his daughter

Tell that to his daugther, she unfortunately has more weight than you when it comes to the matter.

[BooScout]

56. No she doesn't

If there ever is a successor to Camelot, the American people are the ones that have the right to name the successor. Sorry but the Kennedy's are not Kingmakers......much as Teddy would like to be.

[emilyg]

55. Thank you.

[krkaufman]

57. Good point. Though it's a bit moot, since Obama, himself, said the same thing.

Totally moot, in fact.

As for whether he similarly inspires citizens as JFK, I'll go with the opinions of Caroline and Teddy.

[HamdenRice]

60. "Ted and Caroline are wishful thinkers" So you know more about JFK than them?

Do you realize how absurd your argument is? You know better whether Obama is like JFK than JFK's brother and daughter?

Riiiiggghhht.

Post dismissed.

[bpeale]

61. THANK YOU! great post!

on edit: not you, i meant the voters who say "he's the next JFK." i say bullshit. he's all style and no substance.

[dschmott]

62. Carter praises Obama...

Carter praises Obama...

[dschmott]

63. Compares him to MLK

"Carter was particularly praiseworthy of the Illinois senator's rhetorical skills, comparing them to those of Martin Luther King, Jr."

[brentspeak]

101. Uh, Obama is no MLK

It's a joke to make the comparison - on any level.

[Tom Strong]

65. The politics of Hype n/t

[LibDemAlways]

72. You got that right. The politics of defeat in Nov. too.

[Bread and Circus]

67. JFK is no JFK. Lincoln is no Lincoln. No one can really live

up to their legendary status.

[PurpleChez]

69. Sorry I unknowingly stole your line...

After ranting and rambling I realized that what I was thinking boiled down to "JFK was not JFK." Only after I posted and went back to look at the thread did I see that the post IMMEDIATELY PRECEEDING MY OWN carried the same line. I'm such a spaz.

Color me plagarizing

[PurpleChez]

68. If you like JFK you like JFK. But...

I would be really, REALLY slow to laud him based, even in part, on the achievements of his father (that the latter was an ambassador). Joseph Kennedy was knee-high to Evil Incarnate, and many (most?) of his achievements were gained through less than admirable means--and that's putting it mildly. (And, after all, Chucklenuts's dad was president for a few years and he's not qualified to be a fire watcher.) And JFK was qualified, at least in part, because his megalomaniacal father groomed him to be president? (At least after his megalomaniacal efforts to groom JFK's older brother fell through when the latter died in WW2.) And JFK was a veteran who saw war first hand...in that respect, John McCain is more qualified than any of our front-runners. (Are ANY of the Dem candidates military veterans?) And what about the allegations that Joe Sr. essentially bought the 1960 presidential race in West Virginia and, perhaps, elsewhere? I'm sorry...I was just born too late to be all mesmerized by Camelot. JFK did a lot of good stuff, and he was very inspirational, but I just can't get too caught up in the idea that he was Abe Lincoln for the 20th Century or anything of the sort.

Obama isn't JFK? I'd say that JFK wasn't JFK either.

[notundecided]

70. JFK & Obama

SEAN WILENTZ
January 30, 2008

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'God alone knows the future," Ambrose Bierce reputedly wrote, "but only a historian can alter the past." Although Bierce was undoubtedly right about historians, he perhaps should have added politicians and their ardent supporters as well.

In recent weeks, some of the presidential candidates and their surrogates have been evoking history more insistently than ever. Not surprisingly, those evocations often have been flimsy and faulty.

The more grievous abuses of history have come from the Democrats, and particularly from the Barack Obama side, including his many avid supporters in the media and the academy. (Perhaps this is a good place to note that I am on record as a supporter of Hillary Rodham Clinton.)

Few will disagree that it is very rare for a candidate with as little experience in politics and government as Obama to capture the imagination of so many influential Americans. One way for a candidate like this to minimize his lack of experience is to pluck from the past the names of great presidents who also, supposedly, lacked experience.

Early in the campaign, Obama's backers likened him to the supposed neophyte John F. Kennedy, as did Sen. Edward M. Kennedy this week. More recently, some have pointed out that Abraham Lincoln served only one "undistinguished" term in the House before he was elected president in 1860.

These comparisons distort the past beyond recognition.

By the time JFK ran for president, he had served three terms in the House of Representatives and twice won election to the Senate, where he was an active member of the Foreign Relations Committee. In total, he had held elective office in Washington for 14 years. Before that, he was, of course, a decorated veteran of World War II. Kennedy, the son of a U.S. ambassador to Britain, had closely studied foreign affairs.

This record is not comparable to Obama's eight years in the Illinois Legislature, his work as a community organizer and his single election to the Senate in 2004 — an election he won against a late entrant, right-wing Republican Alan Keyes, in a state where the GOP was in severe disarray.

[BlackmanX]

73. If anybody knows about JFK it's Ted and Caroline.

The JFK comparison is a mute point to me because the Kennedys could have already stopped the clintons if they had simply endorsed Obama in New Hampshire. Now it might not mean as much. I hope it still does because the worst thing for the democratic party to do long term is nominate hillary clinton because she won't help the party in the election.

[Beregond2]

76. Obama/JFK

All good points, but you are implying that, 1., experience is vital to being an effective president, and 2., Obama has put forward no substantive proposals. The first assertion is undone by looking at Bill Clinton, and the second by looking at Obama's website.

The comparison to JFK is all about the ability to inspire, and I think that is a highly desirable quality in a candidate, after eight years of Bush pissing all over American idealism. Just because the Kennedy's and Kerry have good reasons to be angry with the Clintons (and don't we all) that doesn't mean they are insincere in their endorsement of Obama.

[venable]

77. he isn't...not by a long shot. nt

[JuniperLea]

78. Hear hear!!!

Very well said.

[SPKrazy]

82. if he is the new JFK

does that mean he is strung out on prescription drugs too?

having affairs

etc.

I love JFK, but he had a lot of baggage that the press ignored that wouldn't have been ignored in today's market

[PurpleChez]

113. Thanks for that reality check!

[demo dutch]

85. Senator Obama you're not JFK, and John Kerry was a disaster! Thank you!

[Rydz777]

86. Well said.

[newmajority]

88. Why does he have to be JFK?

Why can't he be Barack Obama?

[spanone]

92. who else to name successor to camelot? ted has his own agenda? kerry has his own agenda?

appears you have your agenda too

we all have agendas

hillary is no bill

[BooScout]

96. I agree........

Hillary was the brains behind Bill that got him into the WH in the first place. Too many people underestimate just how smart she is.

[mamameow]

94. jfk????

obama is no jfk, nor is he rfk. all i have heard from obama is good speaches. my son says he is going for obama, i then asked him to tell me why. he could not except he gives good speaches. what is obama health plan, what is goals for education, taxes, iraq, iran, foreign policy??? why does obama have clinton advisers? he should have new fresh faces to go with his new fresh rhetoric. obama in eight years, clinton now with obama as vp. no on the job training. do not insult jfk by saying obama is another jfk----maybe in 8 years.

[RBInMaine]

98. Lots of speculation here.

Maybe Ted Kennedy and John Kerry's "agenda" is that they want a Dem to win the White House back and think Obama is the best all around candidate to accomplish that. Much of what else you say about what you think is in their heads is mere speculation. By the way, GO OBAMA !!

[sallyseven]

99. You make some very valid points.

Just remember the Bobby Kennedy wing of the family is backing Hillary. So it is 50-50. I'll bet Joe is backing Hillary too.

[David Zephyr]

103. Does Hillary think she is LBJ? She made that analogy. Obama never made the one you imply he did.

Is Hillary LBJ? She offered the analogy that she was.

Well, they both are Democrats that took us to a war we shouldn't have gotten into and that we can't win.

So perhaps Hillary's analogy of her being LBJ is one we should ponder.

[amborin]

107. good post

[indimuse]

108. One of the best pieces I've read..Thanks!

Re:You need to understand that Ted Kennedy has his own agenda in endorsing Obama. He’s not happy with what he sees as the Clinton’s control of the Democratic Party. When they ‘took control’ Kennedy was the ESTABLISHMENT that so many Obama supporters say they are so against today. <> Is this the SAME Establishment Obama was referring to in his book when he wrote the "Liberal ideas FAILED" and Republicans were party of Ideas...? "America was ready for a change...?"

Thank you again...:)