Something about Barack Obama is starting to bother me.

[Writer]

He carries such a strong image. Such strong charisma. However, I notice his momentary leaks of pettiness. For one, that snide remark about Hillary Clinton being "nice enough" at the New Hampshire debate a couple of weeks ago. And this handshake issue that, although I know that Claire McCaskill was asking him a question, did seem petty in nature. I say this because if I were standing in his shoes, and my opponent were approaching me, my instinct would be to hold off on McCaskill so I could shake her hand. After all, she was right next to him.

Also, Obama's attacks today carry within them a need to not just win, but to destroy. His body language in every debate conveys someone who simply does not like her. I don't know how Hillary feels about Barack - maybe she doesn't like him, either - but there appears to be a mean-spiritedness hiding beneath his glossy exterior.

I also considered that Obama is only 46 years-old and that he is, in fact, a junior senator from Illinois (I know he was in state politics before that, too). Hillary is also a junior senator from New York, but she also has about 15 years more wisdom than Barack in the area of politics and public policy. If I were 46, only in the first term of my senatorial career, I would think a bit before taking on the challenge of acquiring the highest office in the land. Not that it's never been tried before, but it takes a sort of uber-confidence to truly believe that you are a) the right person to become president, and b) able to successfully compete for the presidency being relatively young and not having held a governorship or some higher form of office.

I can't put my finger on it - but something's not right here. Don't get me wrong, I think any of the Democratic candidates will do well in the office, but I feel that, every day, I'm seeing a bit more of Obama's soul emerge. I don't think he's all bad, but he's certainly not the glossy image he portrays himself as. The petty behavior does bother me. I don't like it. His and Hillary's platforms are so similar, that I can't help but study the person himself. And every day I question this phenomenon. It doesn't seem real, and I am wary.


Just some thoughts.

~Writer, the Undecided, but now leaning toward Clinton~

BTW: I wanted to add, because I understand the nature of GDP, that a few of you will toss out rude insults. Trust me, the more insults I read, the more firm in my beliefs I will be. It does you nor your candidates any good.

[busymom]

1. I think the snub

was overrated by the media....

Read what the candidates say about the issues and then decide based on who you think will do the best job...don't buy into the MSM's take on it.

[JAbuchan08]

but Hillary ran with it

Barack said that she never tried to shake his hand, and then Hillary said "I reached out my hand to him, and I'm still reaching it out."

[Hieronymus]

63. Yes, Hillary is milking it.

[neutron]

216. Obama's dark pettiness is the First Thing I noticed

about him. And it made me an HRC supporter.

When he won Iowa, Hillary said "congratulations, we have to do better."

When she won NH his followers exploded that "She Rigged the Election"
and her supporter Kucinich got a recount. And she GAINED votes.

When she won NV, his followers screamed "She Cheated."

His politics are bottom feeder. His head is still in Chicago.
This guy is not ready for big time.

[f the letter]

221. Do you really think Kucinich is a Clinton supporter??????

i would love to see support for that.

[Sherman A1]

256. Agreed

Perhaps I missed the part where DK is supporting HRC...............:crazy:

[Just-plain-Kathy]

288. Who was counting the votes? I don't trust our elections anymore.

I'm going to vote for Obama on Tuesday. I will forgive him for his pettiness...I can NEVER forgive Hillary for her IWR vote.

[JAbuchan08]

291. YOu said "dark" pettiness

that seems like a rather, um, inappropriate use of the word dark. As an English major I would say it is rather awkward and somewhat forced. As a politically inclined citizen... well I wouldn't want to pull a card so to speak.

[Robb]

298. As an English major

...I'd ask for my money back. :eyes:

[Divine Discontent]

310. hahaha

I'm not even reading the other 290 comments, I read them in threads I think are interesting to find one or two that just totally make me laugh or appreciate something said - telling them to ask for their money back is hysterical.

As if saying dark pettiness is somehow racial... YEAH - if you make it so!

ha

thanks again for saving me time.

[JAbuchan08]

331. it was unnecessary

and seems forced.

I'm not implying that it was conscious, but it is extraneous. I can't think of a legitimate reason to refer to Obama's supposed "pettiness" as dark. It might be appropriate in a third rate Michael Creighton (Chricton?) novel, but it just sounds stupid to me.
I wonder if you know the poster above, that you could judge his motivation? I'm not ACCUSING anyone of anything, simply suggesting that they should reconsider using the word "dark" as an adjective in sentences referring to Obama, especially when it seems as "tacked on" as this.

I wonder what your qualifications are to judge my impressions on usage? I'm guessing none?

I call 'em like I see 'em

"friend"

[azmesa207]

258. How is

Hillary Milking it when he said she didn't try to shake his hand she simply said I held out my hand in friendship and she still is . Seem to me he's the Jerk .

[andrys1]

300. The snub, and -was- McCaskill questioning him?

Overrated? Maybe not. His call is for "Hope" and "New Politics" and Inspirational Leadership.

So, if he doesn't handle this awkward moment well, it's worth discussion.

Writer, the Undecided mentioned she knew that Claire McCaskill was asking him a question.

I just posted a sequence of 3 other pictures on another threat at Dem Underground forums:

http://tinyurl.com/2vthq2

I'm curious if Writer would be as sure after seeing those?

Obama would have been wise to go with his chief representative's earlier explanation on 'Morning Joe' that day, as it made more sense, even if it had been an unwise choice (letting Kennedy and Clinton have a 'private' moment as old friends).

- Andrys ( still hoping for relative sanity after http://www.andrys.com/flballot.html )

[thunder rising]

2. Thanks for the concern. It will work out, I'm sure. bye now

Come back when you have a thought that counts

[northzax]

16. see? It spreads to his supporters too

this sense of 'thou shalt not criticize the chosen one' disturbing, and all too common.

[Zorro]

139. Just like Bush worship

I'm observing the same tendencies by the Obama supporters here that we've witnessed for the past 6 years from the Freepers.

[ravencalling]

188. Point taken

But I'd rather have Obama then a repug in office wouldn't you? The fact that some human beings will always act a certain way doesn't matter to me. I wasn't put here to be their psychologist.

During Bush's reign I looked longingly at the poop in my yard as being a worthy replacement.

[f the letter]

222. Those tendencies are universal to all who..

can't have an actual debate on issues, regardless of their candidate. The fanatic Obama supporters are the same as the many fanatic Clinton supporters.

[indimuse]

227. agreed!

I've tried for w while now to point this out on DU...did not go over well. It's very obvious to me!

:)

[kstewart33]

281. I tried to point out the same last night on DU and was absolutely flamed.

I'd posted about changing my mind to Obama and then reconsidering after the so-called snub at SOTU. There's something about him that I don't like and it's got to do with pettiness and so easily getting so full of himself.

There's an entire research literature on the pros and cons of charismatic leaders. And a major con is that they believe their own press releases.

[shaniqua6392]

234. Yes. Democrats can be "sheeple" too.

This could be very dangerous to our country.

[LostinVA]

26. What a fucking snotty comment

I've known Writer a hell of a long time on here, and even though I don't always agree with her, I know she's always sincere. She wrote an OP that she obviously spent a lot of time one, whether or not you agree with it.

Jesus.

[KennedyGuy]

35. its the typical Obama supporter mentality..

I don't seem to remember seeing "Fuck off" in the definition of hope..
very troubling.

[MichiganVote]

48. This is standard issue for this poster....really petty and totally ineffective.

[gaspee]

74. I'm glad

I have that person on ignore then

[krabigirl]

146. thank goodness for my ignore list :)

[Pacifist Patriot]

202. GDP has done more for my ignore list than anything else.

And I HATE putting people on ignore.

[LostinVA]

209. I wish I could read this....

hehehehehhehehehe

I see you survived the day with the boys.

[murbley40]

223. I do agree with her and I thank her for saying it.

[murbley40]

224. self deleted

[murbley40]

225. delete

[Fox Mulder]

97. It's comments like these that turns a bunch of us away from GD:P.

[Andromeda]

167. That was mean.

Just another Obama supporter. That explains it.

[tandot]

207. "Come back when you have a thought that counts" ??? WTF?

:thumbsdown:

[burgundy floppy hat]

237. knee hits nose

This wasn't really a concern troll, possibly a troll, but pertinent points were made regarding Obama's behavior, and you should have taken notice, to gain more insight as to how your candidate is being perceived.

You responded badly, labeling, using a cliche, showing you didn't understand the content, clearly.

And childish defiance is soft, a very soft defense.

This reflects very badly on Obama, he, and his supporters, don't seem capable of accurate assessments, or mature, diplomatic behavior.

Obama exhibits emotional and intellectual characteristics not compatible with the American Presidency, and this is a concern. Witness Bush, really, not everyone can do the job.

Essentially, you displayed the behavior to which the diarist was referring.

[MilesColtrane]

268. "This reflects very badly on Obama..."

Not to me.

But then I don't blame the Yankees when some of their fans in the outfield bleachers throw batteries at opposing players either.

[LostinVA]

313. The OP is NOT a troll -- I'm tired of certain posters insulting her like that

[SammyWinstonJack]

323. Nice!

:eyes:

[Catherine Vincent]

3. He's stuck up.

The more we hear and see him, it shows.

[Alexander]

43. You mean he's "uppity".

[Catherine Vincent]

55. People in my circle don't really use that anymore.

He's stuck up. You know, think his shit don't stink.

[Alexander]

No, you use other code words instead.

Let me guess - he's "soft on crime" and "weak on terror", too. And he's a Muslim. :eyes:

[Catherine Vincent]

87. uh, no.

Next.

[femrap]

101. As Shirley Chisolm said:

'Men are men.' She felt her gender hindered her efforts more than her race. And I believe she was the first woman to win a primary...NJ, I believe.

[DemBones DemBones]

329. You are so right. Shirley Chisholm was a black woman

running for president in 1968 and she said that she had been discriminated against more as a woman than as a black.

Being a white woman, I knew about the discrimination I'd faced already, but I was surprised to hear that comment from a black woman.

[Hoof Hearted]

143. Perhaps we find him shrill, and calculating, maybe we don't like his cackle.

?

[Alexander]

273. Since I don't use those terms to describe Hillary Clinton,

What's your point? :shrug:

[leftynyc]

193. So every time somebody uses

ANY negative words about Obama, they're racist? Because that's what you are inferring. Stuck up means stuck up. You're the only bringing race into it and it will end up hurting your candidate if it seems he can't take an honest hit without crying racism.

[Marrah_G]

198. There are other posts like that in this thread also

Any negative comment when it comes to Obama makes you a Racist. It is a disgusting attitude and people are going to get fed up with it quickly.

I know I am already.

I certainly don't fucking want a President whom I cannot criticize without being called a Racist. I doubt I am alone in that.

[indimuse]

233. On ED Shultz show today..

A Biden supporter called and stated that Obama began his Racial crybaby act with Biden...way back in the beginning of the Primaries..and felt that had something to do with Biden's low #'s...? I don't know...

[suziedemocrat]

210. Get a life and stop projecting your thoughts onto others.

Maybe you have a problem forgetting a person's race, but that doesn't mean everyone does.

[Alexander]

274. Get a life and quit supporting race-baiting politicians.

Apparently the Republicans don't have a monopoly on Willie Horton-style attacks. The DLC likes it too.

[suziedemocrat]

312. I'm no more or less fond of Hilary than I am of Obama.

I liked Biden and Dodd.

[Jed Dilligan]

103. "anymore"

:wtf:

[Pacifist Patriot]

203. Can't speak for Cat, but...

"uppity" has a bit of a dated feel. My grandparents used that expression for the stuck up miss prisses and the phoney guys putting on airs in the neighborhood. Couple that with the association with racism and gender oppression and it really is not used by progressive anymore. I suspect that even if Cat had used the expression "self-absorbed" or "inordinantly high self-esteem" this particular poster would still have responded with inane racist gibberish.

[indimuse]

229. well it's comin through MY laptop LOUD and CLEAR...

peeeeeeeeeeeee_uuuuuuuuuuuu...:evilgrin::rofl:

[Maven]

70. No, it has NOTHING to do with his race

for fuck's sake.

[Alexander]

82. Maybe not with you.

But most Shillbots here are only too happy to buy into the Clintonian race-baiting.

[emilyg]

115. You are ignorant.

Go Hillary.

[Alexander]

276. I can see you offered so much in the way of enlightening discussion.

:eyes:

Your subject and message put together are hilarious. Nice projection you've got there.

[QC]

73. Yeah, because if you don't believe that Obama is the Messiah,

you are obviously a racist.

Personality cult, anyone?

[Alexander]

81. Oh, so "Obama's a Muslim", "Obama deals drugs" and "Obama's a mobster"...

all came from nowhere.

:eyes:

[QC]

92. That's not what this poster said.

But if you are determined to racebait, then don't let me deny you the pleasure of it. It's not like you have any credibility to damage anyway.

[comradebillyboy]

114. The Obama camp is geting very good at race baiting

and excellent at the Rovian tactic of accusing your opponent of what you your self are doing. Hillary has not done any race baiting, just fending off charges of race baiting from the Obama camp.

[Alexander]

278. The Obama camp has always been good about correcting bullshit claims...

That fellow Democrats simply love to repeat.

[Alexander]

272. No, it's what Hillary's surrogates have said.

With the tacit approval of Senator Clinton herself.

[indimuse]

236. have you NEVER heard of the RW???

ROVE??? MSM??? please you can not and SHOULD NOT try to pin this on a fellow Dem...especially Hillary!
For god sake....ANYONE can send and spread ruomors...I.T. babay...

[Alexander]

277. Have you never heard of Billy Shaheen?

I wouldn't normally criticize fellow Democrats like this without evidence, but the Clinton campaign did all the work for me.

[Stand and Fight]

226. No, the poster meant what they said. God dammit. Get a grip. n/t

[Ellen Forradalom]

293. Arrogance knows no color.

This is not in reference to Obama personally. I am from Illinois, I used to live a half-block from him; I don't find Obama arrogant.

I take exception to your remark that 'stuck-up' means 'uppity.' 'Stuck-up' refers to the notion of insufferable arrogance, whereas 'uppity' was applied to women and minorities who demanded to be treated as human beings--quite a different concept.

[KoKo]

322. Unsureness which comes across as Arrogance?

[SammyWinstonJack]

325. You think so? Since you used the term.

:eyes:

[aquart]

58. That's too easy a dismissal.

He isn't stuck up. He's angry. And he is NEVER allowed to show how angry he is. Because, as was pointed out today by, I think, Rachel Maddow, an angry black man is scary. So he can't ever let that out. But it does come out, in moments when his approval has been so huge, he feels he can indulge himself. He did it after Iowa. And then again after the SC landslide and the Kennedy endorsement. And the anger goes straight at Hillary Clinton, career woman, who didn't stay home and bake cookies.

How could a man who was once a boy abandoned by both father AND mother NOT be angry? And how strong the discipline that keeps it in check.

But the President of the United States has NO CHECKS ON HIM. None. We have made impeachment invalid by not impeaching Bush. He can do whatever he pleases.

What will happen to the angry boy inside the charming, smiling man when he has no checks but the personal control he has always exercised? Will that continue to be enough?

[northzax]

69. yes, we are all angry

but at George Bush, not at our own people. if this is what happenss when democrats crticize him, what's he going to do when he's swiftboated?

[Catherine Vincent]

84. That's a good point. nt

[DURHAM D]

94. I read his comments on older people almost a year ago

and what appears to be a very personal dislike of a certain generation. I have assumed it was because his parents basically left him alone to be raised by members of the WWII generation.

I also recently read in an article that he figured out that people like you when you smile and just go along to get along so he figured out early in life to hide his true feelings.

[arewenotdemo]

95. When was Barack Obama ever abandoned by his mother?

[Tellurian]

132. A little boy would consider himself abandoned on the remarriage of his mother to

someone that became his step-father, ultimately displacing her affection to the new husband. (Obama has a slew of half bros and half sisters on both sides resulting from his parents but none of those are of his own blood.)

His step father obviously resented him and his mother chose the new husband over him.. seeing he was raised by his grandmother. This is where the anger comes from.. Obama has probably never admitted this to himself or confronted the issue to resolution. The provocative "sneer" speaks volumes.

[okasha]

140. And Hillary is just enough older than he is

that she can register as of his mother's generation.

[Tellurian]

145. yes, I believe subconsciously for Obama, thats entirely possible...also

why he harbors so much resentment for Bill. Bill defends Hillary against his attacks. No doubt, Michelle favors his grandmother's personality.

[JAbuchan08]

158. Are you done psychoanalyzing Barack

It seems to me that you are trying to set YOURSESLF up as some kind of parental figure in order to belittle Barack and exert control over him. You percieve him as a badly behaving child, but perhaps it is YOU that is the overbearing parent so desperate not to lose control that they have to diminish the uppity child. Maybe that's what Hillary is?

Hey don't get mad at me - you started this game. Anyways I'm just speculating. I wouldn't want to come off as snarky or disrespectful. :eyes:

[Tellurian]

190. oh yeah, with that moniker, I'm glad you're not my neighbor..

projecting much?

"Make my day"!

[JAbuchan08]

194. It always back to the nick

It is something for people with no argument to latch on to so it gets a lot of attention. At this point I would change it if I could, but I can't. BTW I've had the moniker for over a year (I can't change it) and I haven't bought a gun yet - because it's supposed to be sarcastic.

Keep with the condescension an the infantalizing, it makes you and your candidate seem so appealing.

[Tellurian]

211. If your'e an attention seeker..

"It seems to me that you are trying to set YOURSESLF up as some kind of parental figure in order to belittle Barack and exert control over him. You percieve him as a badly behaving child, but perhaps it is YOU that is the overbearing parent so desperate not to lose control that they have to diminish the uppity child.

Maybe that's what Hillary is?

Hey don't get mad at me - you started this game. Anyways I'm just speculating. I wouldn't want to come off as snarky or disrespectful."

No, I'm not trying to belittle Obama. It's nothing more than an opinion following one of the first Rules of (my) Life.
1.) "Know who/what you are dealing with."

Seeing Obama is a public figure asking for my vote, I have every right to voice my opinion about the fella who is trying to convince me he is presidential timber and can do the job.

My conclusion is based on listening to him and watching his behavior under pressure. That being said..
I know, he doesn't have the knowledge, experience and temperament to pull this country out of the tailspin it's in..!

[JAbuchan08]

289. I listen to Hillary and watch her behavior under pressure

She scowls, she scolds, she fake laughs and she fake cries.
She interrupts people when they dispute her.

In short she seems to have very little respect for people other than herself.

[Tellurian]

328. Hillary doesn't have the patience or the time to talk about stupidity..

and neither do I.

toodles!

[JAbuchan08]

332. run away.... run away....

May I just say/
hypocrisy?/
Double standard/
is that the standard?

[burgundy floppy hat]

240. It is not enough to psychoanalyze Barak, one has to BE Barak...

Like "Being John Malkovich," but with a bigger stick up your ass.

Ok, I'm banned, I'll crawl away now.

Sorry.

[Laurab]

218. I read that he got along well with his step-father.

That they did many things together, and Obama learned a lot from him. I'm not sure where you get the "obvious resentment", or how you feel you can decide where he got his supposed anger from - he was raised by his mother and stepfather, as well as his grandmother and grandfather, at different stages of his life.

None of his brothers and sisters are of his own blood? I suppose you're right, as they all share only one parent, but what the hell does that have to do with anything?

I think Obama's "anger" probably stems from all of the dirty tricks coming from the Clinton campaign. My guess is that he just plain doesn't like Hillary, and for good reason, although I still don't see a "snub" after seeing all the pictures, although if there was one, I wouldn't blame him.

Are you a psychiatrist, or do you just play one on the internets?

[hezekkia]

265. haha. this is a hoot!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Nexus7]

153. Sure he can be angry.. but he wants to be President

He wants to be President, but he can't shake a fellow countryman's hand?

If as you say, it is only his discipline that keeps his anger in check, then we'd better not elect him. We've already seen what someone with repressed psychological issues will do once in office.

[Andromeda]

168. Good points, aquart...

.

[K Gardner]

4. Your concern is duly noted. Thanks for sharing.

[thunder rising]

5. Nobody's ever lost an election for snubbing Hillary

[Tom Rinaldo]

15. Tell that to Rick Lazio. n/t

[JAbuchan08]

that doesn't even make sense

that would imply that simply running against Hillary is a snub.

Like not endorsing Hillary is sexism

[aquart]

67. No. Lazio behaved like a snot to the former first lady.

It didn't work for him.

[JAbuchan08]

76. I don't know much about that, but I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt

I hate this climate of enforced civility. It usually means that you don't want to get called out.

[murielm99]

284. There is a climate of enforced civility

even at the most basic grassroots level.

I get along quite well with my opposite, the republican precinct committeewoman. We have always liked each other. Her husband is my dentist.

I would just as soon kick the asses of some of the republicans at the county level. But I am cordial to them. I shake hands and exchange pleasantries.

Sometimes we have to work with them and find common ground on county issues. I would be cutting my own throat, and the throats of the elected Democrats around here if I fought with them. Elephants never forget.

I live in a red area, but we are making headway. How bad would it be if I had been so nasty to them that I could not even get a spot for tabling at county events, or a spot in the parades, or if the landlords would not even rent us a building for headquarters? What if I went to the courthouse for voting information, and could not get the time of day because I had started some petty argument? I work at being nice to them so we can get our information out in county publications and newspapers.

Do you like every Democrat you have to work with? I don't. I know a couple here who make me furious. At least one of them is a rival. We acknowledge how much the other has done for the party.

Bipartisanship? Nah. But basic common courtesy is not that hard. If we can do it with those we disagree with fundamentally, we can do it with our fellow Democrats. If there is going to be any incivility, let the republicans start it. Let it be known that they started it, that they rebuffed courtesy. And do it without whining!

[JAbuchan08]

290. Well I guess it depends on what you mean by civility

In a lot of cases (and you should know this after eight years under Bush) civility has a pretty broad definition and is used as a bludgeon to silence criticism. So when I hear that Rick Lazio "snubbed" Clinton. I wonder if it is much like the recent "snub" of Obama.
Like I said I'm not familiar with the race. I didn't move to New York until after Clinton's re-election. I can't speak definitively on this. It is true that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, but you kill more roaches with poison than with sugar.

[northzax]

78. someone else remembers that

bad move in the debate by Rick. There is a reason Hillary Clinton has never lost anything. It's worth remembering that.

[dionysus]

85. lazio < obama.....

[Andromeda]

172. LOLOLOLOL!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ErnestoG]

21. Good point.

And if (heaven forefend) she does wind up as the nom, she is going to galvanize the right, most conservatives, many independents and even some Democrats into the biggest and nastiest anti-Hillary voting bloc you could have imagined.

[DemCam]

266. So why's she the only one my Republican husband can vote for?

Says he can trust Hillary....but not McCain, not Romney and especially not Obama.
This is the first time we've been able to talk about politics since 1980. Hope he
gets the chance to vote for her. Otherwise he says he's ready to just go to Mexico
and vacation for a while. lol Man, that puts me in a bind.

[ErnestoG]

270. Oh I'm sure a rank and file GOPer could trust Hillary...

she has a penchant for voting with them anyway, compared to the other Democrats in Congress.

[pnwmom]

317. Funny that didn't happen in New York state, even in the red areas.

She won them over, and got 75% of the women's vote and more than 60% overall. Even in red areas like upstate New York, she drew the support of huge numbers of Independent and Republican women.

And we saw what happened in New Hampshire. The nasty anti-Hillary people risk another large backlash.

[LostinVA]

29. Lazio

[shayes51]

6. I agree. I went to see him in Birmingham last summer--

--paid $100 to do so, and, of course, have watched him on TV. Every time I see him, I like him less.

[Donkeykick]

7. One of the only things that bothers me too.

I also considered that Obama is only 46 years-old and that he is, in fact, a junior senator from Illinois (I know he was in state politics before that, too). Hillary is also a junior senator from New York, but she also has about 15 years more wisdom than Barack in the area of politics and public policy. If I were 46, only in the first term of my senatorial career, I would think a bit before taking on the challenge of acquiring the highest office in the land. Not that it's never been tried before, but it takes a sort of uber-confidence to truly believe that you are a) the right person to become president, and b) able to successfully compete for the presidency being relatively young and not having held a governorship or some higher form of office.

[Tweed]

and Cheney has about 15 more than Hillary

Those 15 extra years sure didn't help her with Iraq.

[Donkeykick]

25. Cheney is a Republican...

and has politics and philosophies that do not coincide with mine.:hi:

[Tweed]

57. a true Clinton supporter; don't answer the question

Don't like the logic? Realize you were wrong? Just try and spin it for some damager control!

Keep on truckin' buddy, there's no convincing you obviously!

[nonconformist]

154. Spin what?

Hillary's experience is seen as a positive thing.

To point out that a Republican has experience is irrelevant. They have experience being assholes we don't agree with.

[Stand and Fight]

230. You didn't ask a question, Tweed.

You made a declaration. There is a significant difference between an interrogative and a declaration.

[KennedyGuy]

8. As you can see by the dismissive tone of the Obama folks.

This is an issue, not only for Obama, but for his followers as well.
They seem to rudly dismiss any concern or criticism..its very telling.
The "like it or tough shit" approach is what will lose them the nomination..

[Deja Q]

12. The "like it or tough shit" approach sometimes drives people back to the status quo.

[readmoreoften]

45. What status quo? /nt

[amborin]

294. Bush all over again

[EV_Ares]

9. Yeah, those years of experience really help out, how did Ronnie do, McCain, etc. If age is a factor

guess you say you are voting for McCain and all of his wealth of experience along with Lieb.

[Deja Q]

10. Thank you indeed.

I like reading other peoples' perspectives.

Plus, your OP isn't a feces flinging festival so more people are inclined to take it seriously...

And now I'm going to read the responses; see who's been ploppin' the poo...

[City Lights]

11. Do you have a picture of Hillary approaching Obama with an extended

hand? I'd love to see it if you do, cause all the pictures I've seen have Kennedy extending his hand and Clinton reaching out to shake it, while Obama is turning toward McCaskill to answer her question.

[Lucinda]

23. I dont. But I do have this one from last February. His attitude toward her isn't new.

[jenmarie]

64. Ouch.

[Cronus Protagonist]

80. Lord of the flies

Nasty pic.

[Lucinda]

106. It's from the National Prayer Breakfast last February.

[kikiek]

120. Wow. Talk about non verbal communication. The tilt up of his head and look on his face/in his eyes.

Not a side to him he should show.

[Mojorabbit]

175. I like him

but my sis thinks there is something off with him. She is a pretty good read re body language. At the end of the day though it seems these two will be our choices. Either one will make a good prez. I still wish Biden had done better.

[kikiek]

303. I like BIden too. I like all of them. I agree we need to be sure to get the democrat in no matter.

[krkaufman]

131. Good lord, people. It's a still photo. Life is a moving picture.

You can catch *any* expression if you wait long enough. Was Obama in the middle of stretching his neck? Who the f knows? It's a still photo. It's not like a video of Bush flipping somebody off.

Wow. Glad to see we're basing our candidate choice on such weighty issues.

Here's to 4 more years of a Republican in the White House.

[1corona4u]

180. yes, let's have another look at the official Obama snob album, shall we...

I've also added another photo with Obama's nose in the air, and this time, towards JE;






(she looks shocked in this one)





Obama glaring at JE;





Oh, and here's a good one of John pointing his finger at Obama...

[Cameron27]

204. Wow,

I'd forgotten about that pic.

[Stand and Fight]

231. Now if looks could kill...

That is most definitely NOT the look of someone who is on friendly terms. Glad that Hillary survived that look of TRUE disdain. Ouch!

[WinkyDink]

24. Why would she extend her hand to someone's back?

[City Lights]

51. You'll have to ask her.

She claims she extended her hand in friendship and unity. I think she's lying. She and her supporters are trying to make something out of nothing.

[Lucinda]

13. I agree. The actions don't match the rhetoric for me.

The dext debate should be interesting.

[ErnestoG]

14. Oh, so don't react in Obama's defense or we push you away huh

HAHAHAAHAHA, ridiculous. What a miserable attempt to hijack an opinion.

[denem]

17. People who are uber-confident are not petty.

They can be many things - Sociopaths and Bullies come to mind, but not petty. WJC by the way is not uber-confident either. His constant need for approval and appreciation suggests a hole in his heart.

[LostinVA]

18. For the record, the OP is not a concern troll

She's a longterm, well-known DUer.

Good grief.

[northzax]

39. oh, we know this

I know this, you know this. I've been here just as long, if not longer, than either of you and if I express such doubt, I am apparently a freeper. It's getting cultish, which is a shame because Obama is a good man (although he is not my first choice) but the holier-than-thou supporters are getting old, fast.

[Maven]

77. The whole "thanks for your concern" line is so trite

and in any case the opinions of people who would try to delegitimize a solid longtime DUer like the OP aren't worth a damn anyway.

[LostinVA]

200. I know, I know -- you're right

[AndyA]

19. Next on the corporate media's "To Do" List: Take down Barack Obama.

Will it be Rezko?

Will it be "the snub"?

Will it be the real estate deal?

Or something we don't know about yet?

It's a done deal, folks. Obama is next of the list to go after. Just like Kucinich, just like Edwards. Hillary is the GOP's gal, and no one will get in their way.

Bye, Barack.

[MadBadger]

20. You wanna talk about Pettiness? How bout Hillary saying that she reached her hand out to Obama

even though we all know she was reaching it out to Ted Kennedy.

[maximusveritas]

33. Or how about the fact that Hillary truly did snub Obama after he announced his candidacy

He went to shake her hand and she just walked right by him.

[Levgreee]

40. Yes, this was outright rude and deliberate

not even up for interpretation, like Obama's 2 incidents.

[Levgreee]

44. I also think, through the early mudslinging, this is what Hilary desired

to make Obama defend against attacks, start to critique Hillary also. If she hadn't, he would have continued keeping to his own issues, and coming off as the respectful and nice candidate/person... that almost everyone else who personally knows him(including Edwards) thinks he is. The debate was dragged down into a back and forth, by Hillary.

[BootinUp]

22. I should probably

throw out a nasty insult like some of the others here, because I want you strongly in the Hillary camp, heh.

thanks for sharing your thoughts though.

[Polly Hennessey]

27. Me, too!

I can't quite explain it yet. The more I see and hear him, the more I am puzzled and disenchanted. Make no mistake, if he is the Democratic nominee I will vote for him in November ----- but, something disturbs me.

[NashVegas]

28. One Possible Good Thing About Obama

If he can divide the Republican party the way he is the Democratic, he'll be a shoe-in for November.

Lee Atwater would have been so proud, if not for that tumor.

[Uben]

30. He comes off a bit arrogant at times

I'm not sure arrogance is the word, maybe he's just trying to exude confidence, whatever, but I think I know what you mean. As a person, I like Obama as good as any politician. I support Clinton because she has had a birdseye view of the inner-workings of the whitehouse and she is just as competent, if not more, than the other candidates. She can hit the floor running in January and we pretty much know where she stands on everything. The media and the right-wing have drug her over the coals for 15 yrs and she's still in the game.

Obama would probably give the appearance that the U.S. has indeed changed directions to the rest of the world, but I'm not as worried about perception as I am pulling us from the abyss Bush has led us into. I think she has what it takes to do that. The Clintons know how to put together a team and succeed.

We are winners either way, so good luck in your endeavor to choose a candidate.

[Yossariant]

31. Appropriate handle.

[nonconformist]

32. I agree... thanks for verbalizing what I've been thinking as well.

Something just doesn't sit right with me either, and I think part of it is the petty arrogance.

[Levgreee]

34. I truly think you are making too big a deal out of this

Have you ever had something come across the wrong way, accidentally offended someone(or in this case, being interpreted as offending someone by others, as I don't think Hillary was personally offended).

Out of these months of coverage, there has been TWO, count them two, personal acts on Obama's part that have been "construed" as offensive, even though my personal opinion is they weren't... but, that is up for people to decide for themselves.

But, the fact that there are only TWO incidents that we are speculating over, tells a lot. I think he is not as adept a politician as others(in then sense that he can always exactly control how he portrays himself), so, like everyone else, once in awhile he comes off in a way that is not unambiguous enough that people can read into it.

[northzax]

62. it's not the handshake

I didn't even see that, or read about it until later on. But the reason that resonates was because of what writer talked about upthread. It's just this eerie feeling a lot of people have.

[TheDebbieDee]

36. There are 3 things that bother me about Sen. Obama

1) He doesn't explain HOW he's going to do anything.

His supporters will say, "Go to his website and read his policies." But why can't he just say HOW he plans to get these things done?

2) He wants to make a change in DC, but how is he planning to do that?

He wants to reach out across the aisle to repukes, but Dems have done that several times since 2000, to no avail. The Dems have become doormats to the repukes. They say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get different results!

3) One last thing - he's an inspirational speaker, but he doesn't say anything, as far as I am concerned. I can get what he's dishing out at any Tony Robbins seminar. What will Sen. Obama do when the effects of his self-help seminars wear off? Will we then find out then that the emperor has no clothes? Let's not make the same mistake that the "sheeple" made.

[MoonRiver]

37. I'm recommending this thread,

because you articulate my views about Obama so well. Thanks!

[Phillycat]

38. Just one thing?

[surfermaw]

41. Me too leaning toward Hillary...think Obama too close to Refurbs

[Guava Jelly]

42. I was solid Edwards now I am leaning toward Obama.

I will vote for Clinton if she gets the nod but not in the primary.
I believe Obama has a better chance of defeating McCain..But that is my opinion and they are like assholes.


Oh umm ....Freeper troll!!...(I kid,i kid) :loveya:

[ngant17]

46. it took more wisdom to vote against IWR

"...about 15 years more wisdom than Barack"

Well, it took more wisdom (and courage) to vote against IWR. So what good are those extra years of wisdom if it's not being applied for good and productive purposes?

Hillary has made Obama much more popular because people who are for peace and who are against the war, they don't have any choice but to trust Obama's judgement. He may have some trivial defects, but I don't let superficial things bother me from the bigger pictures. If Hillary had a similar track record of peace, I would have no problem voting for her no matter how great Obama might become as a President.

But no matter who is the candidate, I'm voting against the war in Nov. Because Iraq will get worse, and so will Afghanistan. I don't live in a dreamworld.

A vote against the war is also a vote for a robust civilian economy, because you can't have a war without sacrifices on the economic front. Look at WWII. We had to ration everything. And this is an unjust war so the sacrifices are likewise unjust and unnecessary.

So anyone who talks about turning the US econony around, he or she needs to explain me the rational for the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Some people can't relate the economy to the war, but it is wasting hugh amounts of capital as much as it is wasting hugh amounts of human lives. The economy is pretty shot up right now. I can't see it getting any better soon.

Really, if there isn't a viable peace candidate on the ticket in November, I won't have much motivation to vote in the first place, other than to vote against McCain or some other war hawk, because I know if McCain is elected, he will attack some other county, most likely he will have a grudge against Cuba and it's an easy target.
The best hope is for Obama to get the nomination.

[Maven]

88. Yeah, except Barack didn't vote against the IWR.

So he doesn't get credit for it. And in fact his attempt to put an event that never could have happened into the plus column for his candidacy comes across as more rank insincerity.

He did, however, vote to keep funding it and express agreement with Bush's war policy on at least one occasion.

[BeyondGeography]

47. He's not at all a perfect human being

but at least he aims high.

[awaysidetraveler]

49. Are you really ignoring issues of substance between Obama and Clinton?

And going on media spin alone to make your decision? That's what the "handshake" and
the "you're nice enough" comments are all about: spin.

Check your issues, and check the credibility of both candidates.

There is only one answer.

[Triana]

50. You NAILED it - just the way I've been feeling about him..

...there is an undercurrent of arrogance, narcissism, hypocrisy there. It's not blatant - but it's there - like an annoying buzz or rattle that you couldn't quite find or put your finger on in a car. New, pretty, shiny, georgeous - but something not quite right about it.

[Blue-Jay]

52. He cut me off in traffic once, then flipped me the bird.

[Maven]

89. You should start a thread about that.

[Blue-Jay]

96. ha-HA! Touche!

:rofl:

[Maven]

98. ...

;)

[Big Blue Marble]

53. Clever way to seed Obama doubts.

Faxed talking points or not, I see the evidence.

I like the way at the end you attempt to inoculate yourself
from criticism.

[LostinVA]

61. The OP is a well-known, longtime DUer, she isn't an "operative"

Jesus Christ.

[Maven]

91. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4301081&mesg_id=4301952

[Big Blue Marble]

149. Your reference to the length of stay means what?

The OP has been here since 05. What is your point. It still is a snarky nasty attack on Obama.

[alstephenson]

214. "Attack"????

Wow. Just wow.

[okasha]

133. That level of paranoia needs meds.

See a doctor.

[alstephenson]

213. Ha! Absolutely.

Strong meds.

[maximusveritas]

54. Hillary wasn't approaching him. She was approaching Kennedy.

And they had already greeted each other earlier.

Also, I've yet to hear anyone explain what was so wrong about the "likeable enough" comment. People cite it without ever explaining that.

The reason people get angry about this is because Hillary has been even more petty than Obama, but for some reason the media has decided to go on the offensive against him.

[ErnestoG]

86. Save your breath. The Hillarbots will suffer nothing that conflicts with their fantasies

[polichick]

56. For what it's worth...

I didn't see Obama's "You're nice enough" comment in a negative light at all ~ I thought he meant that, in his opinion, she was plenty nice.

[Levgreee]

65. I thought so too

it was appropriate for the joking tone that preceded it. I was surprised when everyone continued to make a big deal.

[polichick]

72. He has a glib humor that I really enjoy...

Either some people have trouble with the sublety, or they're just looking for problems.

[Hoof Hearted]

59. I once contributed to Obama and Hillary both.

It wasn't any one thing that turned me away from Obama, but the drip, drip, drip finally got to be too much to dismiss.

Very thoughtful and civil post, Writer.

[ngant17]

71. I am for Obama, even though I think Hillary would be a decent POTUS

but I would much prefer Obama as the POTUS because he is really a down to earth and modest guy. I don't think he has Jimmy Carter's smile but I don't feel jittery and nervous when I see or hear him.

Unfortunately, I'm also worried about all the defenseless 3rd world counties which will be squashed and laid to waste under a President Hillary, or President McCain or some other nut-case who wants to one-up the last goof-ball of a president.

I want a clear conscious when I vote for the POTUS, and Obama is the only candidate. I'd hate to have to vote for Hillary but she will be the lesser of the 2 or 3 other evils out there. Sure, Hillary might decide to make conventional bombing runs on Havana, but I'm certain that wackos like McCain will use thermonuclear ICBMs or nuetron bombs just to get started, and then we'll have the main invasion of Marines on the beach-head, all basking in MSM glory.

[Maven]

93. MODEST?

Where do you see "modest" in any part of him?

[ngant17]

186. Well, I don't watch MSM

and I don't know where his alleged arrogance is coming from, I never see it in Obama.

[Writer]

60. BTW, I am reading your responses.

Whether you agree with me or not, I appreciate the feedback. I actually find it (when kindly delivered) helpful.

~Writer~

[Andromeda]

179. Your points are well taken, writer...

I've had the same feelings about him all along.

from another writer :)

[blues90]

66. We share the same concerns

I felt from the moment Obama blew on the scene something was wrong wit the picture . He is arrogant no doubt . What troubles me more is he was not doing well then Ophra came along and suddenly he jumped .

Also what are his motives and goals , being not experienced and two years in the senate makes me feel he had this goal to become the president long ago , not for the sake of the country but a personal goal .

All other presidents paid their dues , many in the house and senate are much more equalified but never made it their purpose to become president .

He just came out of nowhere . Now he's got some Kennedys endorsing him , I question this , who has what to gain and why .

I am skeptical of everything these days , we don't need any more screwups especially at this time .

I know politics is all a game with motive and trade off's . It's a club elite .

[Maven]

68. I feel the same

In his more unscripted moments he shows a certain narcissism and mean-spiritedness that is a complete turnoff. It's not just that he has a massive ego--all politicians do, to some extent--it's that he clearly feels entitled to such a quick rise to the top. To that end, I think he sees Clinton as an obstacle to the destiny he was "born for," good of the country be damned. He says it's about us, and yet his entire campaign has been about him. The snub showed a certain pettiness but the photograph that said more to me was the one of him standing next to Kennedy, glaring at Clinton out of the corner of his eye.

[mtnsnake]

75. Good post. I have found Barack to become very cocky when things are going his way

almost to the point of unbridled arrogance.

[Kermitt Gribble]

79. Great post!

I feel exactly the same.

[SammyWinstonJack]

326. Seems a lot of us do.

[tabatha]

83. Actually, I find Bill and Hillary far more arrogant than Barack.

What would you say if Barack wagged his finger at you while he was lecturing you like Bill does?

I think this goes solely to candidate bias.

If you support one candidate, you will find/distort the actions of other candidates to your bias.

It is difficult to be neutral.

I also found Hillary's lecturing and interruption Obama at one of the debates, arrogant.

[GalleryGod]

90. D+ only because no misspellings.

:argh:

[hfojvt]

99. Obama probably likes Hillary more than I do

I don't think their platforms are all that similar, and to me, Hillary does not have a good track record.

I did see some of the arrogance though in the flier his campaign sent me. It starts a first paragraph that ends "It was the start of an extraordinary life." Then the next page has a quote from a Harvard Law Professor who "calls Barack Obama the most amazing student he has had in 37 years of teaching law." Then the next section talks about his "courage and judgement".

Some of that may be sales pitch to counter his supposed lack of experience, but it struck me as a little bit "full of oneself".

Still, Hillary's kinda the same way, running as if she is owed the Presidency and she is the only one who can "keep us from going backwards".

Plus, I am deciding this on policy and need to hear more populist proposals before I get off the ABC train I started on.

[BlackVelvet04]

100. I can't put my finger on it - but something's not right here.

That's how I feel and I've learned to follow my gut instincts. I've always been sorry when I don't but never when I do.

[demo dutch]

108. Hear hear!

[abburdlen]

102. step away from the spin

you want to get an idea of Obama's nature?
Give this a read

"....Richardson said. And he said he likes Obama, telling a story about how Obama saved him during one of last year's Democratic debates:

"I had just been asked a question -- I don't remember which one -- and Obama was sitting right next to me. Then the moderator went across the room, I think to Chris Dodd, so I thought I was home free for a while. I wasn't going to listen to the next question. I was about to say something to Obama when the moderator turned to me and said, 'So, Gov. Richardson, what do you think of that?' But I wasn't paying any attention! I was about to say, 'Could you repeat the question? I wasn't listening.' But I wasn't about to say I wasn't listening. I looked at Obama. I was just horrified. And Obama whispered, 'Katrina. Katrina.' The question was on Katrina! So I said, 'On Katrina, my policy . . .' Obama could have just thrown me under the bus. So I said, 'Obama, that was good of you to do that.'""

[BlackVelvet04]

110. Oh, blow it out your butt....

it has nothing to do with spin. It has to do with what WE have observed. Now, you may not like that but acting like the media has made our decision for us is insulting and quite frankly not surprising from an Obama supporter.

[abburdlen]

117. Wow

angry much?

The OP discussed his impressions of Obama's true nature based on a photo of him not shaking Clinton's hand and Obama saying "you're likable enough."

A year long campaign, two books, years of elected office and he gets a feeling about Obama's true nature from some overly played cable news bits? Yeah I'd say that's spin. Just like knocking Edwards for a haircut or attacking Hillary for Bill's indiscretions.
Believe what you want about Obama, I just think it's goofy the things people think are important around here.

peace

[BlackVelvet04]

121. She brought up much more than that

so you must have reading comprehension problems.

[Maven]

127. She was talking about her general impressions

Not any particular moment.

[Tellurian]

138. simple... Boy's Club!

[Stand and Fight]

242. Very valid point.

I'm a Hillary supporter. However, I think it was an honorable thing on Obama's part. He could very well have let Richardson falter and then attacked him for it. He did not. I was not aware of this incident, but Obama's stock just went up significantly in my book.

Thanks so much for posting this.

[smalll]

104. He's "Little Boots" --

Well, I guess being known as Barack Caligula Obama can't be much worse than BHO.

[Jed Dilligan]

105. Hillary lost me with her MLK bullshit

Barack is no more pissed at her than I am, and I'm not even black.

[BlackVelvet04]

129. What bullshist would that be?

The fact that without the civil rights legislation MLK's dream wouldn't have been realized? That's true. There's nothing racist about it and nothing that takes anything away from MLK. Without MLK Johnson wouldn't have signed the legislation. It took both of them.

[Jed Dilligan]

136. It's bullshit

Dr. King and the civil rights movement forced Johnson to sign the bill. Hell, the country nearly burned down anyway. Imagine if he hadn't. The choice was signing or race war. Johnson had more to lose--i.e., the South and white blue-collar workers--than a Republican would have had, and the party is still paying for that today. But not signing it would have been more suicidal than signing it. He was forced. The people forced the government to act, and it is the best thing--perhaps the only good thing--that happened in American politics in living memory.

Hillary's comments diminishes not just the contribution of Dr. King and the civil rights leaders but the very power of the people. I have always suspected that Hillary's ideal was an omnipotent government. She absolutely confirmed that with what she said. The woman has no understanding of real politics whatsoever. On top of that, she is hideously offensive whenever she opens her mouth about race.

[Tellurian]

142. Blah, blah blah! If you knew what you were talking about that would be something..

But you don't.. Here is a first hand account by someone that was there at the time straighteng out your twisting of facts into what is called "pretzel logic". Your point being, to bash Hillary ....

watch it and learn something!

http://blip.tv/scripts/flash/showplayer.swf?enablejs=true&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbillmoyersjournal%2Eblip%2Etv%2Frss&file=http%3A%2F%2Fblip%2Etv%2Frss%2Fflash%2F613659&showplayerpath=http%3A%2F%2Fblip%2Etv%2Fscripts%2Fflash%2Fshowplayer%2Eswf

[Jed Dilligan]

144. Pretzel logic?

This is an issue of people vs. government and couldn't be more straightforward.

[Tellurian]

147. Your version is far and away from the contents of the video..depicting actual historic events

You used the word "forced".. MLK "forced" Johnson... when Johnson and MLK worked together to get the CVR Act passed in 64'. MLK's people were behind him. MLK controlled their tone. Johnson was faced with changing the minds of Die Hard White Supremisits..which was no easy task.

Just a few details you conveniently left out of your post to eventually slam Senator Clinton!

[Jed Dilligan]

159. What does it take, exactly

for a black minister to get a President to "work with him"?

It is the power of the people, a power that Hillary Clinton despises and fears.

[Tellurian]

189. You are nutso and detached from reality..

call Dr Phil.

another example of your sillyness?

You thought Rezko was a Jew..

[Jed Dilligan]

239. You're deliberately distorting and misunderstanding me

just like your candidate does. Or maybe you're just stupid? Either way, calling me "nutso" is just more evidence in the nasty, arrogant, rude, domineering Hillary-people file.

[BlackVelvet04]

160. Didn't I just say that without Dr. King Johnson would not

have signed the bill? And without Johnson Dr. King couldn't have gotten the bill.

As far as I know Dr. King didn't hold a gun to his head.

Her comment in NO way diminishes Dr. King's contribution.

[Jed Dilligan]

162. The gun to his head

were the millions of angry black Americans who shut down and burned down major American cities even after the act was passed. What would have happened if he rebuffed Dr. King?

No, he didn't need Johnson. Any white guy sitting up there in that office would've had to do it. If he wouldn't do it, he'd be crazy, and we would now be living in the aftermath of a second civil war. Hell, in the parts of the country where the governors wouldn't play ball, it almost happened.

The idea that civil rights were granted to black people by a white politician, even if he's getting half the credit, is utterly offensive and perfectly odious. Black people demanded their rights. The white government saved its own ass by complying.

[BlackVelvet04]

163. So, it still took SOME white guy

signing the damn bill. It happened to be Johnson.

If you can't deal with that fact how are you going to deal with Obama reaching across the aisle to republican white guys?

[Jed Dilligan]

164. Not even vaguely the same issue

The issue is whether you believe in the power of the people or the power of the state.

[BlackVelvet04]

165. It takes both sometimes.

I was part of the anti-war movement during the Vietnam era. I was part of the fight to get abortion rights. I was part of the movement to get the 18 year old vote. I know about the power of the people and I believe in it. But it still takes the state to enact the will of the people.

[Jed Dilligan]

169. Still

When has Hillary Clinton shown that she believes in us?

[BlackVelvet04]

173. Maybe in 1993 when she was fighting

like hell to get us a decent health care plan?

[Jed Dilligan]

174. Nope, bad example

That would have been a good use of state power. Maybe if she'd mobilized the people power, it would have worked!

[2rth2pwr]

107. I agree, it is so simple but when put in words it fits.

Haughty Arrogance

[awaysidetraveler]

109. Why not look at the issues alone and ignore the spin? If you're with Edwards, you're with Obama.

Don't get me wrong: I am shamelessly advocating Obama, and I will ask for your vote.
Still, I believe that this should be a point of principle for Edwards voters,
because these are the hallmark issues of the Edwards campaign.

And Hillary Clinton does not support these issues with the same conviction that Obama does.

Hillary Clinton will keep us in Iraq longer than Obama, and she voted to begin the war.

Not so with Obama:

“When I am this party's nominee, my opponent will not be able to say that I voted for the war in Iraq; or that I gave George Bush the benefit of the doubt on Iran; or that I supported Bush-Cheney policies of not talking to leaders that we don't like. And he will not be able to say that I wavered on something as fundamental as whether or not it is ok for America to torture — because it is never ok… I will end the war in Iraq… I will close Guantanamo. I will restore habeas corpus. I will finish the fight against Al Qaeda. And I will lead the world to combat the common threats of the 21st century: nuclear weapons and terrorism; climate change and poverty; genocide and disease. And I will send once more a message to those yearning faces beyond our shores that says, "You matter to us. Your future is our future. And our moment is now.”

— Barack Obama, Des Moines, Iowa, November 10, 2007

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/foreignpolicy /


Hillary Clinton takes corporate lobbyist money. Not so with Obama, and you can check
www.opensecrets.org for details.

“I am in this race to tell the corporate lobbyists that their days of setting the agenda in Washington are over. I have done more than any other candidate in this race to take on lobbyists — and won. They have not funded my campaign, they will not get a job in my White House, and they will not drown out the voices of the American people when I am president.”

— Barack Obama, Speech in Des Moines, IA, November 10, 2007

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/ethics /


Hillary Clinton has fought poverty in some meaningful ways, but it is not her life's work.
Obama has been fighting poverty as a community activist since 1983: it is his life's work.

“I'm in this race for the same reason that I fought for jobs for the jobless and hope for the hopeless on the streets of Chicago; for the same reason I fought for justice and equality as a civil rights lawyer; for the same reason that I fought for Illinois families for over a decade… That's why I'm running, Democrats — to keep the American Dream alive for those who still hunger for opportunity, who still thirst for equality.”

— Barack Obama, Speech in Des Moines, IA, November 10, 2007

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/poverty /


Aren't these issues what John Edwards' campaign were all about?

[BlackVelvet04]

111. How DARE you tell Edwards supporters who they

are for?

[Maven]

124. Yeah bullshit on your first point because Obama's own position paper

says he'll leave "residual forces" in Iraq to combat al Qaeda.

I didn't even bother to read the rest.

[Stand and Fight]

244. That's rubbish.

Complete and utter rubbish. I'm a long-time Edwards supporter; however, I am most definitely not going to be told whom I am with now that that great man, John Edwards, has abandoned his campaign for the White House. Hillary Clinton gets my support now.

You've got a lot of nerve, buddy. A whole hell of a lot of nerve and arrogance, and that is truly disgusting.

[comradebillyboy]

112. very perceptive analysis

and your thoughts mirror my own increasingly declining opinion of the man.

[bidenista]

113. k+r

:kick:

[CyberPieHole]

116. Obama's "snub" and his deprecating "your'e likable ENOUGH" are windows...

into the dark and misogynistic side of Barack Obama. There is just a thin veneer of shellac and below that is hatred against women. That's my sense of it, though some may accuse me of being partisan.

[abburdlen]

118. you are joking right? nt

[CyberPieHole]

119. No. Nothing funny about misogyny. You think it's funny? n/t

[magatte]

122. You are full of shit on this one....

Obama was raised by a single mother. He is married to a very strong independent woman in Michelle. And you have the right in your little corner of the internet to accuse him of "dark misogyny".
This is wrong and devious, and I ashamed of you.

[CyberPieHole]

123. Obama was "raised" by a single mother who ABANDONED him...

and sent him off to live with his white grandparents. His mother on the other hand remained in Jakarta. It would explain some of his actions towards Senator Clinton. He obviously has antipathy towards females.

The one who is full of shit is you.:hi:

[Blue-Jay]

125. I lived with my grandparents for a while.

Do you want to say something about MY mother too?

[hisownpetard]

334. OMG - this is beyond ridiculous.

He treats his wife with the utmost respect and devotion, and his daughters as well.

Find another excuse.

[okasha]

134. Nothing funny at all.

And misogyny and homophobia are virtually always found together. The Donnie McClurkin incident--coupled with the Caldwell incident, coupled with the "basic rights" condescencion--makes it impossible for me to vote for Obama.

[abburdlen]

137. You wouldn't happen

to work for the NY chapter of NOW do you?

[okasha]

141. You wouldn't happen to be

Clayton Williams' love child, would you?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

135. Hillary's vote for war in Iraq was a window...

into her dark, child-slaughtering side. She has a hatred of children, especially foreign ones. That's the "sense" that I get. It's what I feel in my Chertoffian gut.

Does that sound insane enough for you? Good. Now go be introspective for awhile and see if you get it.

[JAbuchan08]

157. Maybe they're actually windows into the

unlikable side of Hillary.

[LSK]

126. actually Hillary was shaking Ted Kennedy's hand

The controversy was him not wanting to see that or not.

[ginchinchili]

128. You left out Obama's implied bias against Edwards in the last debate.

Obama said that it was an historic election. There is the first major woman candidate, the first major African American candidate, and then there's...John. The Obama camp accused Bill Clinton of playing the race card when he said the same thing, minus the tongue-in-cheek reference to John Edwards. Personally, I think they are both ate up with personal ambition. Neither have convinced me that they have a burning passion to serve America. Only a burning desire to serve themselves, and once they accomplish their goal of becoming president, then they will work out the details concerning the country. I'm really pissed about this election. Once again, we've really screwed up.

[Control-Z]

166. I agree with you 100%

And the media eats it up. And they do play sides - to suit their needs. So much damage has been done to the democratic party during this primary season.

I'm not sure that we even stand a chance of recovering - unless, possibly, Obama and Hillary decide to run together on the same ticket. I really can't see any other possible way that we won't end up with a truly divided and angry party. But I don't believe either would step back and take a back seat to the other for the good of the party/country.

[krkaufman]

130. Wow. The mythical snub outweighs Hillary's pre-Florida request to seat delegates ...

... on the pettiness scale? I don't think so. The trivial (and debatable) examples you provide of Obama's "pettiness" would seem to pale in comparison, in scale and audacity, to the publicly observable actions of the Clinton campaign before and after Florida. (i.e. the transparent call to seat delegates in order to gain favorable press before the voting; and post-election trumpeting of a "victory" in an election that was short of "free and fair")

Re: age and hypothetical "wisdom" gap: HRC's additional 15 years don't seem to have helped build "wisdom" or judgement, as indicated by her Iraq war vote and underscored by her more recent support of the Kyl/Lieberman Iran amendment. (flag burning ban, anyone?)

Re: "seeing Obama's soul emerge"... Are you kidding me? What, have you read a copy of George W Bush's Soul Seeing for Dummies? :)

I'm not trying to convince you to change you mind; it's just that your observations and conclusions seem questionable, and didn't want to depart this evening without commenting.

[AX10]

148. He's a fake.

He presents nicely, but he is all about himself in the end.

[peace frog]

235. I've come to the realization just recently

that your assessment is (sadly) spot-on accurate.

[DemExpat]

255. Now, this is how I feel too.

In a nutshell.

DemEx

[AtomicKitten]

150. I don't agree with your interpretation of these events.

That's the problem with the internets. Your interpretation of events appears to be internets lore gleaned from particular sources without actually looking at just the facts. I see that in the way you describe these events. Just the facts, mam, and you will see things in a different light. Or not. How you choose to view this is your decision and yours alone. Suffice to say, I don't agree with your interpretation of the events as you describe them.

[TriMetFan]

151. Thank you for your post.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way here. At work we keep talking about this issue. There is just something about the guy. Don't get me wrong I was crazy about Obama at first, then like you I just started watching him and his body language.

[bear425]

152. The one comment that has stayed with me and troubled me

and don't quote me here -

was in the SC debate. Obama was responding to Edwards regarding policy making. He said something to the effect of: in a year from now I will be the one making policy.

I'm sure I don't have the exact words correct, but that is what I came away with. It seemed to me he had a certain and dismissive tone.

If anyone can shed light on the exact quote or their feelings on the exchange, I would be more than appreciative.

edit: I have a headache and am going to bed now, so I won't be here until the a.m.

[Levgreee]

181. Its a common gesture that I've seen nearly all candidates make

comments about how it is going to be them, who is president next year. It is sort of joking, sort of to show confidence. I think specifically I can remember Hillary saying it, Obama of course, I THINK Edwards, but I can't remember for sure. I am pretty sure I heard a different Dem say it before Obama did, and he followed suit. and all the Republicans saying it... multiple times, to inspire false confidence when they were losing all those early primaries.

I can't remember all this exactly, but this is my recollection. I would say I am 80% certain... it is a common remark among candidates.

[Orangepeel]

155. everyone who runs for president has an ego the size of a house

how can anyone who thinks they are more qualified than anyone else to be the most powerful person in the world not be arrogant? Some candidate might hide it better than others, but they're all arrogant.

[VotesForWomen]

156. agreed. nt

[Renew Deal]

161. My view

I think it comes from him not fully understanding the scrutiny more than rudeness. He seems normal to me, but a little unusual for politics. Ultimately, I don't think there's anything to it that he can't learn or work out. He's already learned about the nice enough thing. I think we're seeing him grow in front of us, and that's a good thing.

[thoughtcrime1984]

170. Ugh, I must ignore the clueless

"Starting" to bother you, LMAO. Bothered you all along.

[calimary]

171. Interesting observations you made about his attacks carrying with them

a need to destroy - not just to win. While I don't care for some of what I've seen, I relish the idea of one of OURS - wanting to attack to destroy - as long as it's turned on republi-CONS. They REALLY need a taste of their own medicine. I hope, if it winds up being him, that he DOES do his utmost to destroy these schmucks. They need to get the snot beaten out of them. A little mortification is good for the soul, and their souls need it BADLY (that is, assuming they even have souls).

[okasha]

327. No chance.

Those are the people he wants to reach across the aisle to.

[sojourner]

176. my sig and i discussing same thing........this "feeling" that there's something off...

dunno what it is yet. now that my guy has bowed out, i'm left with two who i don't know about. but just because of her political experience i see hillary as more transparent if there is such a thing. i expect her to be calculating and careful, and that is how i see her behaving. but obama... there's something wrong... his rapid ascent into the public eye for one thing. and i didn't get the same sense as many about his "likeable enough" comment --- but i do get something from the "cult" like status he has gained. something about that bothers me deeply. especially since i feel he has not yet made any commitment to a real platform. lots of promises about change, and about process. no substance. just my thoughts.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

177. I think they're both acting like eighth graders

:grr:

[Faux pas]

178. I think beneath that oh-so-polished veneer is a religious zealot.

That's probably where he gets his holier than thou attitude. This is something I've seen in him since the beginning of his campaign. He gets this rapturous look on his face (when he's not pouting or glaring) like God his whispering some huge secret in his ear. That scares the holy bejeesus out of me and gives me shivers down my spine. obama-maniacs better start looking past the shiny stuff and start seeing the slime oozing just under the surface.

I don't like hillary either. My first and second choices were subjected to a media blackout blitz and were f-ed over along with their supporters. Democracy in this county is beyond dead, it's also been cremated with the ashes thrown into the wind.

:nuke:

[PatSeg]

182. Good post Writer

Though it did start a few squabbles.

I think we're down to the point where the issues have been rehashed over and over again, and most people will make their final determination based on the actual person, how we respond to him/her, and how we picture that person in the White House. Their slogans and experience may differ, but they are pretty close on the issues, so now it is the person that counts.

I am undecided also, but have similar feelings about Obama.

[puebloknot]

183. I am not an Obama supporter at this point...

...but your suggestion that he should wait for a future time to seek the presidency brought this to mind:

"There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune.
Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries.
On such a full sea are we now afloat. And we must take the current when it serves, or lose our ventures."
~~~ William Shakespeare

I didn't think Obama was being snide with his "nice enough" comment. I don't think the world turns on "the handshake." People are living in desperation here and abroad, people are dying, and if Obama can change all that, more power to him. Hillary has more time in office because she's older; age doesn't guarantee wisdom.

[Exultant Democracy]

184. "the more insults I read, the more firm in my beliefs I will be.

It does you nor your candidates any good." Now that is just sad, anyone who is going to let the DU mud-fest effect how they are going to vote should consider not voting at all.

Platform-forget about it
electibility- who cares
rude people at DU- now I know who I'll vote for

I hope you understand how hard it is to respect someone who thinks like that.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

185. Seriesly, Obama should start smoking again

Do the math folks. He started showing testiness right around the time he was forced to kick the habit.

Say what you want about smoking, smokers, secondhand smoke and any other thing that starts with the letters s-m-o-k-e, but if you have never been addicted to nicotine you just. don't. know. He's a polished enough politician that even hard attacks should not have thrown him the way they have. Give that man a patch.

[Beausoir]

187. Thanks. Writer.

Good post.

[Tektonik]

191. McClurkin is the reason you should not vote for Obama

[HamdenRice]

192. Maybe it's the fact that he's black

That tends to bother a certain kind of white person.

[Marrah_G]

195. Exactly where in the OP do you see anything that makes you think it is about Race?

Or is it that any criticism, any distrust of a politician must be racially motivated if he or she is black?

I have to say this: If the Obama camp continues to make every word uttered negatively about him as "Racist" then people are going to turn away from him quickly. No one wants to have to walk on eggshells constantly. If people are going to have to risk being labeled a racist everytime they speak about how they honestly feel about Obama then people will just stop talking about him all together. He will fade away.

[styersc]

197. This comment is the best reason I've seen to not only vote...

...against Obama but to actively work for his defeat. Too many have worked too hard to see race relations damaged by an immature candidate and supporters who will scream racism everytime there is a disagreement.

[LostinVA]

199. For shame on accusing the OP of being racist

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

208. And a certain kind of straight person

Couldn't have cared less about the McClurkin fiasco.

[Stand and Fight]

248. Bullshit.

I'm black and it bothers me. So, stop injecting race into situations where it has no bearing. That's bullshit and you know it.

[Maven]

297. Fucking BULLSHIT

How dare you.

[pleah]

196. I have thought that all along. Something is not right about him.

[mnhtnbb]

201. Obama is both cocky and arrogant and has a hard time hiding it.

Hillary can also come on pretty strong as holier than thou. I've never forgiven her for dismissive comment about women who choose to stay home raising kids.

Right now, I'm leaning towards supporting Hillary. I'm so bummed about Edwards dropping out of the race.
I'd rather support a known entity than buy into the unknown that is Obama. I don't believe either of them would bring about the change necessary and I'm not sure either one can beat McCain.

The future is not looking so bright from my perspective right now.

[in_cog_ni_to]

215. That Hillary remark was aimed at the Rwers who want their women at home, barefoot and pregnant.

She said: "You know, I suppose I could have stayed home and baked cookies and had teas, but what I decided to do was to fulfill my profession, which I entered before my husband was in public life." BUT, what the MSM forgot to include was the ENTIRE quote...

JUDD (VO): Never mind that Clinton went on to say feminism means the right to choose work, or home, or both;

Isn't that convenient? It's how the RW MSM works. Cherry pick parts of quotes. It's what they did to Bill Clinton when he made the remarks about Obama being against the war and then Obama turned around and voted to fund the war..."what a faerie tale." The RW MSM never showed the Iraq War comments that came before that "Faerie Tale" remark, which took the entire thing out of context! Eventually, the MSM was SHAMED into showing the entire quote and the "racist" crap died. They did the same thing to Hillary with this quote. She went on to say: "feminism means the right to choose work, or home, or both" and the RW MSM NEVER played THAT part of the quote, of course.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/clinton/etc/03261992.html

I'm a stay at home mom too. I thought what she said was hilarious. She put the RWers in their place and man 'O' man did she set off a firestorm over it.

[Strawman]

205. So you think he's really a Nixonian-type "active-negative"?

Interesting. I would consider him an active-positive.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20060421.html

[Harkpark]

206. Can see that wheee

He is not suppose to steal republicans voters away from the republicans choice.
I mean it will completely destroy the 2 party systems

And yes why are all this young ones falling under his spell.
I mean hey leave some for the republicans

And where are all the new voters coming from, man they sure coming out from somewhere just look at them spike of dems primary voters.

Just not fair to the poor republicans they should have equal share.

Imagine if he get all these American republicans, the young one and all the suddenly politically interested new voter to help the dem contesting for congress and senate seats to vote dems.

Aaaaagrh the nightmare sheeesh USA will be all blue.

There is sure something wrong with Obama if he is doing all this. I mean it is just not normal.

"HECK OF A JOB PISSYPANT "

[pacalo]

212. Just a reminder that Hillary was a legal clerk during the Nixon impeachment.

[in_cog_ni_to]

217. Just a reminder: Hillary served as Arkansas's First Lady for 12 years and U.S. First Lady for 8 year

s and was elected to the Senate in 2000...almost 8 more years as a DEMOCRATIC Senator.

Don't be so silly.

[pacalo]

246. My intention was to point out that Hillary's experience goes far beyond "15 years more than Obama"

which was mentioned in the OP.

[OKNancy]

220. I know! The Republicans still hate her for that.

They are still yapping about how she helped bring down Nixon. blah blah blah

[thereismore]

219. It is these nebulous insinuations that carry no information yet a lot of negative vibe.

I can't put a finger on it but I just don't like you.

[MissDeeds]

228. I have very serious concerns

about both of our remaining candidates. And what is this "...Obama is only 46 years old..."? Only? That's old enough to be a grandfather!

[shaniqua6392]

232. There is something about him that bothers me too.

I don't get all the worship of him as if he can walk on water or something. I just ask myself this: Can we afford to have someone else in the White House that will screw it up more? Can we really trust him? Maybe we should just stick with someone we know and that would be Clinton.

[hisownpetard]

335. How can ANYONE on this earth 'screw it up more' than Bush already did?

It is not humanly possible.

[Leo 9]

238. Between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton who do the words "petty"and "mean spirited" best describe?

Survey says...

[LostinVA]

241. Links?

[Leo 9]

247. Web Results 1 - 10 of about 8,110 for "hillary clinton" petty "mean spirited".

Web Results 1 - 10 of about 4,650 for "barack obama" petty "mean spirited". (0.20 seconds)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22barack+obama%22+petty+%22mean+spirited%22&btnG=Google+Search


Web Results 1 - 10 of about 8,110 for "hillary clinton" petty "mean spirited". (0.07 seconds)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22hillary+clinton%22+petty+%22mean+spirited%22&btnG=Google+Search


Hillary Clinton Wins!




Can you honestly say that any survey would say otherwise?

[Stand and Fight]

252. Hogwash and you should know better.

Hillary Clinton has been on the public radar for a heck of a lot longer. I'm going to risk being self-depreciating right now, but I'm willing to bet that if you did a comparison between myself and Barack Obama he'd come up with more results for the queries you described above than me. Does that by default mean that I am less "mean spirited" or that he is more "mean spirited" because the boolean search yielded more or less results for either of us? Of course it doesn't. So, please do take care not to insult our intelligence or analytical reasoning skills.

[Leo 9]

318. Web Results 1 - 10 of about 155 for "hillary clinton" "charisma and likability". (0.18 seconds)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22hillary+clinton%22+%22charisma+and+likability%22&btnG=Google+Search

[Leo 9]

319. Web Results 1 - 10 of about 175 for "barack obama" "charisma and likability". (0.10 seconds)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22barack+obama%22+%22charisma+and+likability%22&btnG=Google+Search

[LostinVA]

316. Links?

[ErnestoG]

243. Here's what bothers me about Barak Obama....

I wonder what he'll wear to his inauguration?

[Bitwit1234]

245. Toss out rude the slime will reach the stars

It is constant toward Hillary but if you even dare breath wrong toward the other candidate the crap do hit the fan.

Woopi Goldberg told it like it is.....and she likes the other candidate, but she said it, he deliberately snubbed HIllary and it was uncalled for.

[hisownpetard]

336. Well, that does it for me. If Whoopi Goldberg doesn't like Obama, then I sure as tootin'

am gonna vote for the guy. Twice.

[riverwalker]

249. "15 years more wisdom"

Wisdom? No, she is just 15 years OLDER, not wiser.
She is surrounding herself with slimeballs like Mark Penn, defender of Argentine death squads and Bhopal/Union Carbide disaster.

[MadAnne]

250. You convinced me.

I'm voting for you.

[Levgreee]

251. It's sad that this got the most recs out of basically any thread in the last week

[Stand and Fight]

253. It's sad that you either can't count or write...

Because there have been plenty of threads with TWICE the amount of recommendations that this one currently has... :eyes:

[Mithreal]

254. This just in, Obama's a human being. nt

[Hieronymus]

257. Sounds like you've made your mind up .. probably some time ago.

[Tom Joad]

259. he often reminds me of clinton, too.

[earth mom]

260. Obama has proven he's a petty immature DINO corporatist. nt

[ErnestoG]

263. As opposed to Hillary the mature DINO corporatist?

You may have a point.

[earth mom]

267. Can't stand either of them. They deserve each other. nt

[ErnestoG]

271. I understand your frustation.

But you're still going to have to choose, or sit it out.

[earth mom]

275. Write in. nt

[ErnestoG]

279. Oh that's gonna work. *LAUGH*

But, have at it. You can congratulate yourself while they swear in McCain.

[earth mom]

315. McCain is already a done deal. Don't you get that? nt

[kelligesq]

261. Entirely manipulated by the corporate media - make Obama the dem candidate so we will have 8 yrs of

McCain. They know the entire country will not vote for a black man who has
2 years experience in federal govt.

Another 8 years of republican rule is what the media has manipulated democrats into.

[amborin]

286. Republicans are terrified of Hillary

they know she's a progressive and would fight to implement a progressive agenda

they know Obama is a pushover, who will be malleable and easily manipulated

they also know that Obama is either naive or a republican at heart

small wonder the likes of William Kristol---the worst lying neo con around--hopes Obama will be dems' choice for the nomination

Obama == a McCain victory

[maximusveritas]

262. I've often wondered where the hate for Obama comes from

I don't get it.

This post is an embarassment to this site and its members.

[candice]

269. From the same place that "hate" for any other candidate comes from...but

one word to Dems: Stephens!

[ErnestoG]

280. Entitlement candidates and their blood cold fear of something new

and the idea that their "turn at the pie" won't come.

[DuaneBidoux]

No personality trait is set in stone--if it becomes a problem he'll fix it.

He's smart enough to listen to personal criticism and evaluate it with an open mind.

I admit that I have noticed that, but compared to many politicians it is still mild.

Unlike you, for the first time I am truly becoming an Obama believer. Up until about two weeks ago I hadn't not made up my mind but now I am an Obama man. I think he has the makings of a truly great leader.

[kstewart33]

282. He's 46 and he's going to change a personality trait that's

been with him for that long? Fat chance.

[DuaneBidoux]

330. I'm 50 and have changed very many things since 40.

It depends on the individual. Many people have evolved to a level where their perspectives are both so profound and so wide that they are always able to take a new perspective and consider, and then if appropriate, make change.

You have so little faith in people of true talent, ability, and intelligence? I'm sorry for you.

[candice]

264. Some discrepancies in his life story might be troubling

if they are not lies.

When I was trying to learn more about Obama's background some discrepancies in his autobiography were odd:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-070325obama-youth-story,1,4006113.story

as was the tragic life of his Kenyan father, which a British tabloid spilled, which if true has nothing to do with the candidate (his father left when he was two), but one hopes that his autobiography is true to the best of his own knowledge:

"Indeed, by offering up a conveniently potted account of his personal history in this way, he might even have made a pre-emptive strike on those sure to pose the awkward questions that inevitably face a serious contender for the White House.

Yet an investigation by The Mail on Sunday has revealed that, for all Mr Obama's reputation for straight talking and the compelling narrative of his recollections, they are largely myth.

We have discovered that his father was not just a deeply flawed individual but an abusive bigamist and an egomaniac, whose life was ruined not by racism or corruption but his own weaknesses."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=431908&in_page_id=1770

[amborin]

283. Obama's debate remark was vicious

he's displayed petty, vicious behavior on more than one occasion

but the main problem is his record and some extremely troublesome statements

first, the rhetoric is often good but you can't run on promises and rhetoric....anyone can say anything, talk is cheap

Hillary, in contrast, is not only a progressive at heart, but she's a brilliant policy wonk who knows how to get things accomplished....she wants progressive change as much as anyone and knows how to implement it

Obama's statements about Republicans being the party of ideas was scary and unacceptable

was it ignorance? his true values leaking out?

the Dems have always had the greatest ideas in history.....if you want to search for examples, how about the New Deal.....a brilliant program that furthered the rights of workers and citizens in this country and protected them from class warfare perpetrated by the wealthy

to say the Rethugs were the party of ideas is unfathomable and outrageous

[Gloria]

285. His relationship with the guy in Kenya who wants to bring Sharia law to that

country?

[andrys1]

287. Something about Barack Obama is starting to bother me.

[Sam Ervin jret]

292. ar u people fu@&ing kidding ME? @*)280REPLYS+because this guy "bugs you but you don't know why"

Are you KIDDING ME? YOU BETTER BE kidding me.

That's what I'd be saying to my kids if they were still in grade school and acting like this.(minus the salty language)

Any person making up their mind on the President of the USA based on this, please - Take yourself by the earlobe, walk over to the mirror, look in the mirror, and ask, "Are you fu@&ing kidding ME"

How many debates have there been? How many important issues are there to discuss and to turnover and over in your head?

How important is this decision?

And you want to make the decision based on what? Some vague feeling of - what ? Is he too sure of him self? Too Glossy? Too petty?

You see his SOUL emerge?

Is he uppity? Too much shine and soul for you? Your language NOT mine. If one has to much self assurance and one is young they are uppity right and he is too YOUNG for you and there is that SOUL shinning through.

YOU are not kidding ME. There is something of yours shinning through as well. You might want to double check the state of your own salvation.

[populistdriven]

333. I know, these Hillary supporters sound like * when he looked into Putin's eyes

[CreekDog]

295. Still bothering you huh?

:hi:

[Myrina]

296. I think both of them have a mean streak and are less than ideal ...

... can we just start over with all new options?

Please?

[mmm413]

299. Obama seems to have captured people's imagination

But I don't think he has the wherewithal to deflect the GOPhers' attacks we all know are coming. Hillary is definitely not my first choice. Edwards was. But she's been through it and knows what to expect. If she's elected, I just hope she goes back to her "librul" roots.

[KoKo]

321. He's captured...Iowa, New Hampshire, SC and..Nevada ...WHAAAA?

:shrug:

[JerseygirlCT]

301. Well, I didn't take his comments about "nice enough"

in a negative light at all. I think it was calm and understated -- as if he didn't think the issue really deserved a lot more. He's right. Whether she's "nice" isn't really the point, anyway.

I missed the "snub", so I can't comment on that.

As to years and experience, I'm about his age. And I think we're at that age where we can safely be considered grown-ups, with enough life behind us to judge us by. H. Clinton's claims mostly pertain to her time in the WH as the first lady. Undoubtedly, she has the sort of marriage where issues and policy and politics are standard dinner-time conversation. I'm sure she was a key advisor. But except for her work on the health care issue, I don't personally consider that as real experience. Obama on his side has legislative experience in IL, and before that, community organizing experience. H. Clinton can put up some time with Children's Defense Fund -- good there.

In short, I see their experience as rather equal, and not a point where one or the other wins big points. They both have enough, I think. So when that "experience" thing comes out, I usually want to plead: can we just move along to issues?

Obviously, "experience" hasn't been the selling point it's being made out to be, or the truly, seriously experienced candidates ( Biden, Dodd, Richardson) would still be in it.

For me, it comes down to a sense of the person. Clinton hurt herself badly in my eyes with her behavior pre-SC. That was just abhorent to me. And I do not want 4 years of that stuff. Nor do I want Bill as involved as he seems to think he's going to be. If she's president, she's president. He can pick out a china pattern.

Biden seems to me to have the personal characteristics and ability to truly bring together people from disparate backgrounds. Obviously this is something direly needed after 8 years of *. I also think the enthusiasm he's been generating will serve us well in the general -- especially if we're running against McCain, as seems likely. He'd be a much stronger match there, as he draws well from that same pool of independents that McCain would be counting on. I want to hope that he could make a good job of it. We won't know for sure, of course, until he's there.

[Guava Jelly]

302. As I look at this thread a day later I will just inform those who don't know the OP

She is a very smart woman and a very good friend of mine..
We may not agree on candidates and we don't walk lock step with our party.
But I have the greatest respect for this person and she is legit.
Writer you are one of my greatest friends and I love you. :pals:
But I am voting Obama :loveya:

[populistdriven]

304. Do you fucknuts want to discuss the issues or just wallow in the bullshit?

[HopeforChange]

305. What kind of post is this ????

Put your finger on it then.

[Justice Is Comin]

306. So right you are writer.

It's exactly what jury consultants look for. They don't fall for the illusion. They watch the cup that has the ball under it.

He's so transparent to me, I pointed it out several times on here in very strong language.

Glad to have you on the team. With observant people like you on the jury, OJ would be doing life.

[pauldg0]

307. Jeez...........

........you finally figured that out????

[Control-Z]

308. Your OP hit home..

I've been bothered for a while now.

This magical man has no magic for me. I have so many questions about him. Reasonable questions. But I never find answers. If his supporters would just take a moment to talk about his substance I would be more than willing to listen. I would like to see this man, one of our democratic contenders in the light they do, but...well...the more I inquire the more I feel I am being taken for a ride.

It is so infuriating to even try to deal with Obama supporters on a civil level. Honestly. I've tried. I get lectures and chastising for not already "knowing", attacks against Hillary in answer to my questions, or no responses at all.

[Papagoose]

309. This entire thread is very telling

I am/was and Edwards supporter and I am truly afraid of many of Sens. Obama and Clinton's supporters. A lot of what I am reading here goes beyond passionate support of candidates - what I am seeing looks a lot like cult-like worship.

Do you guys hate each other as much as it seems?

[TexasObserver]

324. I don't think the shills here are representative of either camp.

No one who seriously wants to help Obama or Clinton would come here and conduct themselves as these outrageous Clinton and Obama shills. Those people are emotionally unwell. They're not campaign workers, at least not real ones. People who work in campaigns know you don't burn your bridges in the primary season.

[pathansen]

311. Also, Hillary stated that she wanted to sit with him to show party UNITY during SOU but Obama refuse

[Ellen_Olenska]

314. Something About Obama

Yes, Writer, the Undecided......there's something telling
about body language.  It's always more accurate than words
could ever be.  And I agree with you.....something is
"dead in Delaware," as an old friend of mine says. 
I'm starting to see it, too.....the sideways glances, the legs
turned away, the intentionally "disinterested"
face....the general arrogance and dismissal.  Something is
just not quite right.  So I too am leaning toward Hillary.  

[KoKo]

320. I'm finding this "debate" boring without the counterpoint of another person...they seem together..

with only "nuances" in policy. Why the hell doesn't Hillary chose Obama as VP and end the thing NOW!

They are so "together" with only such fine hair line between them? :shrug: