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For folks who want Hillary to denounce her IWR vote...

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jasmine621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:10 AM
Original message
For folks who want Hillary to denounce her IWR vote...
Does this ring a bell: "She was for the war before she was against it."
Talk about a field day for the media and the Republicans...and for many here at DU.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. Oh, absolutey. It's too late now, anyway.
She shouldn't, and she doesn't have to. She can win, and is proving it, without that capitulation.
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Capitulation!?! n/t
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Capitulation as viewed by her.
I wish she hadn't voted and I wish she had apologized for it. But, in the event that she becomes our candidate, I want her to win.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Fuck her.
She should and she won't and I will never, not EVER forgive her.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. out of curiosity, how is she "proving" she can win
a General Election and not the primaries? To be blunt here, I have yet to talk to anyone in my neighborhood or on the rest of the internet who says they are a Clinton supporter. To the contrary, what I hear and read are very negative posts about both the Clintons. There has been a lot of criticism on a literary group over the fact that Bill Clinton is so involved in her campaign. Bill's sleeziness in the Lewinsky affair has been brought up more than once, with questions about whether or not we want him back in the White House in any capacity. I've even heard some conservatives say she is a socialist (which makes me laugh because she is anything BUT). There are STRONG negatives out in the general public for this woman.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. I'm not so sure about the General.
In the Primary, she is recieving a lot of votes. With recond turnouts both she and Obama have done very well. Dem turnout is way up. I think either of them can win the General, I think Clinton would have a harder time, for sure.

I hope Obama can win the Primary, I would love for our candidate to be able to say they were always agianst the war.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. To use a phrase I saw yesterday and quite liked
polls of "everyone I know" tend to have very large margins of error.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. I thought Bill said that
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. I've never had a problem with her decision to not apologize
BFD to apologies for voting wrong on the most important vote any Senator will ever likely have to cast a vote on. It's the vote itself that I denounce her for. And it's one reason I could never vote for her in the primary.
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. 27 Dem senators voted Aye right along with her...
...plenty of yellow streaks to go around.;)
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Certainly true, but 21 dem Senators didn't and neither did 1 repuke
and 1 indie. And personally, I can't imagine living someplace where anyone in my Congressional delegation was either so stupid or so lazy or so craven.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. I would vote for Lincoln Chafee over her. If only he had run as a Dem.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. As a widow, I am disgusted by her wanting us to be "okay" with that.
Because, after all, she "didn't know". Bullshit. Apologize Hillary. Too many husbands and wives are dead for me to be "okay" with that. This time it is personal. Shame on her.

The saddest part is I really, really liked her after reading "My Life". Ask PassingFair. She can back me up on that.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
8. She won't denounce it.
She will have us stay in Iraq, and not withdraw at all. Her votes on this matter show that this is her thinking.
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LVjinx Donating Member (711 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
9. vote
If she faces John McCain, she's going to need that vote to prove she's not weak on defense.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
10. It's only got limited "use" for Team Obama
I opposed the vote and I do disagree with her on that. But continued hammering on it will result in several things that Obama should want to avoid:

1. The amount of deceit the Bush Administration used to get it passed.

2. The fact that BHO wasn't even in the Senate then -- highlighting his relative lack of experience.

3. Hillary's repeated statements that she regretted her vote and was wrong about it. How many politicians can admit to being wrong? The meta-message here is powerful and destroys the "meme" that Hillary is untruthful.

4. It makes people ask, "What would Obama have done?" -- and many of them will conclude, rightly or wrongly, that he would have voted for the IWR.

5. They'll try to invoke the dead soldiers, but the military rank-and-file is not holding it against anyone but Bush, either.

Only liberal wonks like us obsess over it. The more he talks about it, the worse it is for him. The task now is ending the war, not assigning blame to anyone beyond those who designed, built, and sold it: BushCo.

--p!
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
12. I don't care if she denounces it or not
I hold her accountable.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
13. Frankly, her IWR vote and subsequent "troop" support may save this race for the D's.
Not everyone sees this the way we do and most voters will not want a candidate who is "weak" on defense.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
33. Yeah, with almost 2/3 of the country saying the war wasn't worth it...
How can you possibly go wrong? :eyes:
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
34. Not wanting to appear "weak" on defense is what got us in this mess
It's not about weak or strong, it's about right and wrong.

How many of your children are you willing to sacrifice to not appearing "weak"?
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
17. I'm more concerned about what happens in 2009 from any

of the remaining candidates regarding Iraq and future military action.

(I'm also a Clinton supporter who did not and will not like that vote in 2002.)

This may be jumping ahead a few months, but -- when does focus on highly specific decisions of the past take the focus off the future? One of life's many hassles...
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
18. It wasn't a "vote for war"....
...it was an authorization for the President to use force if all else failed.

"My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world.

*****

So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein - this is your last chance - disarm or be disarmed."


http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html

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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Bullshit...
Because John Q. Public knew that Bush was going to do this with that vote. No pass for her and that's a really shitty thing for her to rest on. Because, to me, it makes her look like an idiot. Because I knew, you knew, everyone knew. I don't want to be represented by someone who claims she didn't know.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. It was a vote for a blank check to go to war- something Pat Leahy
stressed over and over in the weeks running up to the vote. Now who should I believe, Pat or Hillary and you? Wow, that was easy. Read Leahy's speech from the floor for some TRUTH.
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Blank check? No it wasn't. Read what she said BEFORE the vote:
"My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world.

*****

So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein - this is your last chance - disarm or be disarmed."


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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. ...and he didn't...and she knew he wouldn't...just like the rest of us.
If she didn't know, then she isn't very level headed or smart. And I don't want that representing me to the world.
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abburdlen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Why did she vote against the Levin amendment? nt
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. God this makes me sad and angry. Read this and PLEASE respond
As I and others have said over and over, declaring war is the single most important responsibility given to Congress. Unfortunately, at times like this, it is a responsibility Congress has often shirked. Too often, Congress has abdicated its responsibility and deferred to the executive branch on such matters. It should not. It should pause and read the Constitution.

In the Senate, we have a duty to the Constitution, to our consciences, and to the American people, especially our men and women in uniform, to ask questions, to discuss the benefits, the risks, the costs, to have a thorough debate and then vote to declare war or not. This body, the Senate, is supposed to be the conscience of the Nation. We should fulfill this great responsibility.

In my 28 years in the Senate, I can think of many instances when we asked questions and took the time to study the facts. It led to significant improvements in what we have done here.

I can also remember times when Senators in both parties wished they had taken more time to carefully consider the issues before them, to ask the hard questions, or make changes to the legislation, despite the sometimes overwhelming public pressure to pass the first bill that came along.

I know following the Constitution is not always politically expedient or popular. The Constitution was not designed to be politically expedient, but following the Constitution is the right course to take. It is what we are sworn to do, and there is no question that having this debate, which really began some months ago, has helped move the administration in the right direction.

Today, we are considering a resolution offered by Senator Lieberman to authorize the use of force. Article I of the Constitution gives the Congress the sole power to declare war. But instead of exercising this responsibility and voting up or down on a declaration of war, what have we done? We have chosen to delegate this authority and this burden to the executive branch.

This resolution, like others before it, does not declare anything. It tells the President: Why don't you decide; we are not going to.

This resolution, when you get through the pages of whereas clauses, is nothing more than a blank check. The President can decide when to use military force, how to use it, and for how long. This Vermonter does not sign blank checks.

Mr. President, I suppose this resolution is something of an improvement. Back in August the President's advisors insisted that there was not even any need for authorization from Congress to go to war. They said past resolutions sufficed.

Others in the administration argued that the United States should attack Iraq preemptively and unilaterally, without bothering to seek the support of the United Nations, even though it is Iraq's violations of U.N. resolutions which is used to justify military action.

Eventually, the President listened to those who urged him to change course and he went to the United Nations. He has since come to the Congress. I commended President Bush for doing that.

I fully support the efforts of Secretary Powell to negotiate a strong, new Security Council resolution for the return of weapons inspectors to Iraq, backed up with force, if necessary, to overcome Iraqi resistance.

Two weeks ago, when the President sent Congress his proposed resolution authorizing the use of force, I said that I hoped his proposal was the beginning of a consultative, bipartisan process to produce a sensible resolution to be acted on at the appropriate time.

I also said that I could envision circumstances which would cause me to support sending U.S. Armed Forces to Iraq. But I also made it clear that I could never support the kind of blank check resolution that the President proposed. I was not elected to do that.

I commend Senator DASCHLE, Senator HAGEL, and others who tried hard to work with the administration to craft a bipartisan resolution that we could all support.

But while the resolution that we are considering today is an improvement from the version that the President first sent to Congress, it is fundamentally the same. It is still a blank check. I will vote against this resolution for all the reasons I have stated before and the reasons I will explain in detail now.

Mr. President, there is no dispute that Saddam Hussein is a menace to his people and to Iraq's neighbors. He is a tyrant and the world would be far better without him.

Saddam Hussein has also made no secret of his hatred of the United States, and should he acquire a nuclear weapon and the means to deliver it, he would pose a grave threat to the lives of all Americans, as well as to our closest allies.

The question is not whether Saddam Hussein should be disarmed; it is how imminent is this threat and how should we deal with it?

Do we go it alone, as some in the administration are eager to do because they see Iraq as their first opportunity to apply the President's strategy of preemptive military force?

Do we do that, potentially jeopardizing the support of those nations we need to combat terrorism and further antagonizing Muslim populations who already deeply resent our policies in the Middle East?

Or, do we work with other nations to disarm Saddam, using force if other options fail?

The resolution now before the Senate leaves the door open to act alone, even absent an imminent threat. It surrenders to the President authority which the Constitution explicitly reserves for the Congress.

And as I said 2 weeks ago, it is premature.

I have never believed, nor do I think that any Senator believes, that U.S. foreign policy should be hostage to any nation, nor to the United Nations. Ultimately, we must do what we believe is right and necessary to protect our security, whenever it is called for. But going to war alone is rarely the answer.

On Monday night, the President spoke about working with the United Nations. He said:

"To actually work, any new inspections, sanctions, or enforcement mechanisms will have to be very different. America wants the U.N. to be an effective organization that helps keep the peace. That is why we are urging the Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough, immediate requirements."

I could not agree more. The President is right. The status quo is unacceptable.

Past U.N. resolutions have not worked. Saddam Hussein and other Iraqi officials have lied to the world over and over and over. As the President points out, an effort is underway in the U.N. Security Council--led by the United States--to adopt a strong resolution requiring unconditional, unimpeded access for U.N. weapons inspectors, backed up with force if necessary.

That effort is making steady progress. There is wide acceptance that a new resolution is necessary before the inspectors can return to Iraq, and this has put pressure on the other nations, especially Russia and France, to support our position.

If successful, it could achieve the goal of disarming Saddam without putting thousands of American and innocent Iraqi lives at risk or spending tens of billions, or hundreds of billions, of dollars at a time when the U.S. economy is weakening, the Federal deficit is growing, and the retirement savings of America's senior citizens have been decimated.

Diplomacy is often tedious. It does not usually make the headlines or the evening news. We certainly know about past diplomatic failures. But history has shown over and over that diplomatic pressure cannot only protect our national interests, it can also enhance the effectiveness of military force when force becomes necessary.

The negotiations are at a sensitive stage. By authorizing the use of force today, the Congress will be saying that irrespective of what the Security Council does, we have already decided to go our own way.

As Chairman and sometimes Ranking Member of the Foreign Operations Subcommittee for over a decade, I have received countless letters from Secretaries of State--from both Democratic and Republican Administrations--urging Congress not to adopt legislation because it would upset ongoing negotiations. Why is this different?

Some say the President's hand will be strengthened by Congress passing this resolution. In 1990, when the United States successfully assembled a broad coalition to fight the gulf war, the Congress passed a resolution only after the UN had acted. The world already knows that President Bush is serious about using force against Iraq, and the votes are there in Congress to declare war if diplomatic efforts fail and war becomes unavoidable.

More importantly, the resolution now before the Senate goes well beyond what the President said on Monday about working through the United Nations. It would permit the administration to take precipitous, unilateral action without following through at the U.N.

Many respected and knowledgeable people--former senior military officers and diplomats among them--have expressed strong reservations about this resolution. They agree that if there is credible evidence that Saddam Hussein is planning to use weapons of mass destruction against the United States or one of our allies, the American people and the Congress would overwhelmingly support the use of American military power to stop him. But they have not seen that evidence, and neither have I.

We have heard a lot of bellicose rhetoric, but what are the facts? I am not asking for 100 percent proof, but the administration is asking Congress to make a decision to go to war based on conflicting statements, angry assertions, and assumption based on speculation. This is not the way a great nation goes to war.

The administration has also been vague, evasive and contradictory about its plans. Speaking here in Washington, the President and his advisors continue to say this issue is about disarming Saddam Hussein; that he has made no decision to use force.

But the President paints a different picture when he is on the campaign trail, where he often talks about regime change. The Vice President said on national television that ``The President's made it clear that the goal of the United States is regime change. He said that on many occasions.''

Proponents of this resolution argue that it does put diplomacy first. They point to section 4, which requires the President to determine that further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone will not adequately protect the national security, before he resorts to military force. They say that this ensures that we will act only in a deliberative way, in concert with our allies.

But they fail to point out that the resolution permits the President to use unilateral military force if he determines that reliance on diplomacy alone “..... is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq .....''

Unfortunately, we have learned that ``not likely'' is a wide open phrase that can be used to justify just about anything. So let us not pretend we are doing something we are not. This resolution permits the President to take whatever military action he wants, whenever he wants, for as long as he wants. It is a blank check.

We have the best trained, best equipped Armed Forces in the world, and I know they can defeat Iraq. I hope, as we all do, that if force is used the Iraqi military surrenders quickly.

But if we have learned anything from history, it is that wars are unpredictable. They can trigger consequences that none of us would intend or expect. Is it fair to the American people, who have become accustomed to wars waged from 30,000 feet lasting a few weeks with few casualties, that we not discuss what else could happen? We could be involved in urban warfare where large numbers of our troops are killed.

And what of the critical issue of rebuilding a post-Saddam Iraq, about which the Administration has said virtually nothing? It is one thing to topple a regime, but it is equally important, and sometimes far more difficult, to rebuild a country to prevent it from becoming engulfed by factional fighting.

If these nations cannot successfully rebuild, then they will once again become havens for terrorists. To ensure that does not happen, do we foresee basing thousands of U.S. troops in Iraq after the war, and if so, for how many years? How many billions of dollars will we spend?

Are the American people prepared to spend what it will take to rebuild Iraq even when the administration is not budgeting the money that is needed to rebuild Afghanistan, having promised to do so? Do we spend hundreds of billions in Iraq, as the President's Economic Adviser suggested, while not providing at home for homeland defense, drought aid for farmers, education for our young people, and other domestic priorities?

Who is going to replace Saddam Hussein? The leading coalition of opposition groups, the Iraqi National Congress, is divided, has questionable support among the Iraqi people, and has made little headway in overthrowing Saddam. While Iraq has a strong civil society, in the chaos of a post-Saddam Iraq another dictator could rise to the top or the country could splinter along ethnic or religious lines.

These are the questions the American people are asking and these are the issues we should be debating. They are difficult issues of war and peace, but the administration, and the proponents of this resolution, would rather leave them for another day. They say: vote now! and let the President decide. Don't give the U.N. time to do its job. Don't worry that the resolution is a blank check.

I can count the votes. The Senate will pass this resolution. They will give the President the authority he needs to send United States troops to Iraq. But before the President takes that step, I hope he will consider the questions that have been asked. I hope he considers the concerns raised by former generals, senior diplomats, and intelligence officials in testimony before Congress. I hope he listens to concerns raised privately by some of our military officers. Above all, I hope he will listen to the American people who are urging him to proceed cautiously and not to act alone.

Notwithstanding whatever disagreements there may be on our policy toward Iraq, if a decision is made to send troops into battle, there is no question that every Member of Congress will unite behind our President and our Armed Forces.

But that time has not yet come. Based on what I know today, I believe in order to solve this problem without potentially creating more terrorists and more enemies, we have to act deliberately and not precipitously. The way the United States responds to the threat posed by Iraq is going to have consequences for our country and for the world for years to come.

Authorizing a U.S. attack to overthrow another government while negotiations at the United Nations are ongoing, and before we exhaust other options, could damage our standing in the world as a country that recognizes the importance of international solutions. I am afraid that it would be what the world expects of a superpower that seems increasing disdainful of international opinion or cooperation and collective diplomacy, a superpower that seems more and more inclined to ``go it alone.''

What a dramatic shift from a year ago, when the world was united in its expressions of sympathy toward the United States. A year ago, the world would have welcomed the opportunity to work with us on a wide agenda of common problems.

I remember the emotion I felt when I saw ``The Star Spangled Banner'' sung by crowds of people outside Buckingham Palace in London. The leading French newspaper, Le Monde, declared, ``We are all Americans.'' China's Jiang Zemin was one of the first world leaders to call Washington and express sympathy after September 11.

Why squander the goodwill we had in the world? Why squander this unity? If September 11 taught us anything, it is that protecting our security involves much more than military might. It involves cooperation with other nations to break up terrorist rings, dry up the sources of funding, and address the conditions of ignorance and despair that create breeding grounds for terrorists. We are far more likely to achieve these goals by working with other nations than by going it alone.

I am optimistic that the Administration's efforts at the U.N. will succeed and that the Security Council will adopt a strong resolution. If Saddam Hussein refuses to comply, then force may be justified, and it may be required.

But we are a great nation, with a wide range of resources available to us and with the goodwill of most of the world. Let us proceed deliberately, moving as close to our goal as we can by working with our allies and the United Nations, rather than writing a blank check that is premature, and which would continue the trend of abdicating our constitutional authority and our responsibility.

Mr. President, that trend started many years ago, and I have gone back and read some of the speeches the Senators have made. For example, and I quote:

“The resolution now pending is an expression of American unity in this time of crisis.”

“It is a vote of confidence . . . but is not a blank check for policies that might in the future be carried on by the executive branch of the Government . . . without full consultation by the Congress.”

Do these speeches sound familiar? They were not about Iraq. They were spoken 38 years ago when I was still a prosecutor in Vermont. At the end of that debate, after statements were made that this resolution is not a blank check, and that Congress will always watch what the Executive Branch is doing, the Senate voted on that resolution. Do you know what the vote was? 88 to 2. It passed overwhelmingly.

In case everyone does not know what resolution I am talking about, I am talking about the Tonkin Gulf resolution. As we know all too well, the Tonkin Gulf resolution was used by both the Johnson and Nixon administrations as carte blanche to wage war on Vietnam, ultimately involving more than half a million American troops, resulting in the deaths of more than 58,000 Americans. Yet, even the Tonkin Gulf resolution, unlike the one that we are debating today, had a sunset provision.

When I came to the Senate, there were a lot of Senators, both Republicans and Democrats, who had voted for the Tonkin Gulf resolution. Every single Senator who ever discussed it with me said what a mistake it was to write that kind of blank check on the assurance that we would continue to watch what went on.

I am not suggesting the administration is trying to mislead the Congress about the situation in Iraq, as Congress was misled on the Tonkin Gulf resolution. I am not comparing a possible war in Iraq to the Vietnam war. They are very different countries, with different histories, and with different military capabilities. But the key words in the resolution we are considering today are remarkably similar to the infamous resolution of 38 years ago which so many Senators and so many millions of Americans came to regret.

Let us not make that mistake again. Let us not pass a Tonkin Gulf resolution. Let us not set the history of our great country this way. Let us not make the mistake we made once before.

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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. The presidential candidate-to-be...
was covering her sorry ass with that speech, as were Kerry and Edwards. :mad: She learned that shit from dear ol' hubby -- after all who would have imagined there would have ever been a different meaning for the word "is"? :eyes:

Everyone in the Sentate knew what the IWR really meant and how Bush was going to use it.

To say anything else is simply insulting to our intelligence.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. The IWR that Bush asked for WAS a blank check -- but the compromise
IWR that got passed was not.

The Bush version -- which Bush could have passed with the new, incoming Congress without any Democratic support -- contained no preconditions and also allowed Bush to invade not only Iraq, but Iran, Syria, anywhere in the Middle East (or in the world -- according to Chuck Hagel).

I applaud Pat Leahy, and I was against going into Iraq then and now. But I understood that some Dems -- including HRC -- thought it was better to help the Repubs pass a more limited IWR than to have to sit back a few months later (with the new Repub congress in January) and watch them pass the Bush preferred version that would give him an entirely free hand, ANYWHERE.
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riverwalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
21. I hold her accountable
Even though she thinks she owes no one an explanation, she does. How did she come to her IWR decision? Why did Robert Byrd and Paul Wellstone reach such a different decision with the same information? Could it be, oh I dunno, silly things like integrity, courage, and wisdom?
After eight years in the whitehouse, and being married to a former president, the truth about WMD's was a phone call away to any number of contacts in the DoD, State Dept, and intelligence agencies. She knew Bush was full of shit about this war, hell most of us did during the vote. She voted for it anyway to not appear too dovish and ruin her future bid for president. This is judgement? This is character?
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
25. At least she learned something from Bush's mistake --
unlike ANY of the Rethugs.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Has she?
I think she's only learned to put a glossier spin on it. I don't believe she would have done anything differently because she is so fearful of taking meaningful stands and getting criticized for them. Invariably, Hillary receives criticism because she continually choses the politically expedient.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I disagree. I think she and the Democrats who voted with her
on the IWR had a valid reason for doing so -- even though I opposed it at the time, I could understand their reasoning.

In October 2002, the Bush version of the IWR would have allowed him not only to attack in Iraq, but in Syria and anywhere else in the Middle East, (anywhere in the world, according to Chuck Hagel) -- and without preconditions.

The Democrats knew that Bush's popularity was riding high and that, on his coattails, Repubs were poised to take over Congress in January. If the Democrats voted en masse to defeat Bush's IWR, all he had to do was wait until January and get his blank check passed by the incoming Senate. So some of the Democrats agreed to work with the Repubs to pass a COMPROMISE IWR that they thought would require Bush to come back to Congress before actually proceeding to war. Obviously, that didn't work. On the other hand, the compromise IWR also limited Bush to Iraq -- and may be the only reason we're not already at war with Iran.
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
29. Basic inter-branch government relations....
The Executive comes to Congress for money and authorizations for federal budgets and such. The Executive presents detailed plans and evidence for such requests. Congress does its own due diligence and may even hold hearings.

When the Executive Branch, the President and his Secretary of State and the rest of his Cabinet, swear that Hussein had WMD that threaten the United States and its allies, Congress acts.

That's the way it works. Congress accepted the proof that the Executive presented based on constitutional policy of historical standards - it must accept what the Executive offers validated by so called classified intelligence.

Now it was the Congress and not Hillary Clinton alone that voted for the resolution, and again, it was NOT a vote for wars of pre-emption. It was NOT a blank check either - because Congress had to approve any funds for anything the Executive wanted to do.

Get it? Educate yourselves on basic government operation before trashing one single invidual and laying the burden of what happened with the Iraq War and its funding on her shoulders based only on partisanship. There were others who voted for the resolution AND its funding. Remember?
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
32. So then we'll have 2 pro-war candidates. Great. nt
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
37. So you're saying she still supports the war, eh?
Is that supposed to be better?
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