What VOTES did Clinton & Obama both take, and differ on, which show him to be more liberal?

[redqueen]

Please, someone tell me.

Cause the two votes they differ on that stay with me are:


The Energy Policy act of 2005

The Oman Trade Agreement


Hillary voted AGAINST both... Obama voted FOR.


So please... tell me the ones that all these ratings services are basing their trumpeting of his more liberal position on... cause I don't seem to recall...

[demo dutch]

1. Who cares, McCain will probably win anyway! Since Hillary voters won't vote Obama

and Obama voters won't vote Hillary!

[SammyWinstonJack]

2. That wasn't the question, was it?

:shrug:

[demo dutch]

3. No but it 's pretty likely!

[redqueen]

4. What does it mean, that this gets ignored?

It's a VERY simple way to prove those idiotic ratings things right... just name two bills to tie... or three bills to win...

Easy.

[SammyWinstonJack]

11. Beats me. I'd answer your question redqueen but I don't know the answer.

Sorry.

[rinsd]

5. Its only for 2007 when Obama missed nearly 40% of the votes.

So Hillary's total will be skewed when compared to Obama since they don't penalize non votes.

[redqueen]

7. "they don't penalize non votes"

How is that information right there... how is that not enough to tell people it's a frickin stupid thing to base opinions on?

:banghead:

[rinsd]

8. They're both centrist liberals.

[redqueen]

9. Yup!

ALL of our original candiates are...

'cept for Dennis. :)

[Alexander]

6. I gave you several examples in another thread and got put on Ignore for my trouble.

What's the point? You're not actually going to read any examples that anyone gives you.

Typical Shillbot - stick your fingers in your ears when you hear an answer you don't like.

[sandnsea]

10. No, this one's an Obama-hater

I guess he stole Edwards' thunder or something, I can't figure it out.

[redqueen]

12. You take that back... I'm no "Obama hater"...

I've called out plenty of idiots for spewing bullshit about Obama... but this isn't bullshit... this is a real, actual issue.

What does it say that you have NOTHING to say in response to my question?

Sorry... but just because I prefer Clinton and don't think we should trust Obama so quickly doesn't mean I'm a "hater".

Fucksake...

Why call me a hater? Huh? What's your reason?

[sandnsea]

13. You, of all people, prefer Clinton??

Because I've known you for years and that makes NO SENSE whatsoever. The Edwards people went ape shit against Obama, concocting all sorts of crazy scenarios against him that were just crazy.

Why should you support Obama? Well gee. The war. He supported ethics complaint oversight, she didn't. She couldn't decide on torture, he could. She supports Bush's Iran policy when almost no other Democrats do. She's cozy with outsourcers, Obama isn't. She's not going to change the global oil dynamics, he will. She has said NAFTA worked well, Obama has opposed it. He was concerned about the people affected by Clinton welfare reform. My god, the list goes on and on and on. There's no logical reason to support Clinton over Obama unless you're a centrist, and you are no centrist.

[redqueen]

14. "The Edwards people"? Who's that?

Sorry but there are Edwards people I've put on ignore for the horseshit that goes on here... I don't trash any group of supporters by implying they're cultists, fools, or republicans.

I'm not asking you why I should support Obama... I don't support EITHER of the two remaining candidates... but if I did, it'd be Hillary... and I've repeatedly said why:

She's closer to John on healthcare, the environment, and labor.

If you can show me some votes that say otherwise... that'd be great.

If not... well...

Oh, and p.s. I won't put everything Bill did on Hillary... she's more liberal than he is, IMO.

[sandnsea]

15. No she absolutely is not

John's health care plan, the real one on his web site, was not based on mandates to be effective. The mandates were to be implemented AFTER all the details of the policy were in effect, exactly like Obama. They both have public aspects to it, and Obama's regulates insurance companies and does not rely on tax credits to work.

Labor? Just puhleeze. One look at Hillary's connections to Indian business ought to show you she doesn't care about US labor. Her support of NAFTA should show you the same thing. She is no friend to labor. Obama has the support of labor in IL becase he has been out there on the picket lines with them.

I already posted about the environment.

The Clintons are leaders in the Party. John Edwards said himself that he listened to the Clintons when he made his Iraq vote. She has the power to get on the television and vigorously oppose bad policy. Has she? She got all the Sunday shows when it was about her.

There's no logic in going from Kucinich to Edwards to Hillary. Not unless you believe the tortured policy positions from people like Krugman that never made any sense and were always more about bashing Obama to support Edwards than any basis in fact or reality.

[redqueen]

17. Again, rhetoric... no votes to show they're different.

[sandnsea]

19. torture, ethics reform, Iran,

There are differences.

The key difference is that the reason we've had these crappy bills to vote on is because of poor leadership from people like Hillary Clinton.

You cannot buy into campaign propaganda when the campaign is over. Obama was never what the Edwards campaign portrayed him to be. He does not take PAC and lobbyist money. There is NO dirt on him or the Clintons would have found it. He will do for the country what he did in IL and that's work to make govt clean, responsive and effective for people.

[democrat2thecore]

25. Well said, sandnsea -nt

[KittyWampus]

16. Bankruptcy? I know Hillary voted for the bill in 2001

[redqueen]

18. That's the best answer I've got so far...

and I suppose that does count in his favor, even though she changed her vote on a later go-round... I think they voted the same that time.

Thanks.

[redqueen]

20. Kick for info...

so, we've got the Bankruptcy Bill, which Clinton voted for a while back but didn't vote for this time...

but so far that's as close as I've come to getting a real answer for this.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

[Straight Shooter]

21. National Journal: Obama rated most liberal

This article may help you, redqueen. I think it works with generalities but there are links where you can find specifics.

http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/

"In their yearlong race for the Democratic presidential nomination, Obama and Clinton have had strikingly similar voting records. Of the 267 measures on which both senators cast votes in 2007, the two differed on only 10. "The policy differences between Clinton and Obama are so slight they are almost nonexistent to the average voter," said Richard Lau, a Rutgers University political scientist."

[redqueen]

22. They say there's 10 differing votes... but don't say which ones.

Fuckin useless...

oh no wait! There's a "key vote breakdown" page, with a ginormous chart. Guess I'll read that for my answer.

I'm confused as to why his supporters aren't concerned with finding this shit out...

:banghead:

[Straight Shooter]

23. Not useless. There are links on that site also.

Key vote breakdown:
http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/votes.htm

If you really want to spend a lot of time, and if you know which issues are most important to you, go to http://www.vote-smart.org and look up each Senator. Their voting records and ratings by various groups will be set out in an organized manner.

Looks like you were editing while I was writing my post. :)

[redqueen]

24. Yeah... tons of it... it's useless unless you plan to spend hours researching.

and that useful link? More BS.... there were TWO items they voted differently on. TWO.

And I'm not familiar with either bill, so I have no idea whose vote was more liberal.

USELESS.

[Straight Shooter]

27. Vote Smart is totally nonpartisan. They'll answer any questions.

It's a very dedicated group of volunteers. They can probably winnow down any areas of concern for you.

This is an online "quiz" that might help. It will take a little time, but it will show you which candidate you're more aligned with. I hope it helps.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/interactives/candidatequiz/

I'm sorry, I've got to get back to work. Good luck.

[maximusveritas]

26. First of all, Clinton voted FOR the Oman bill

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00250

Secondly, the picture on the energy bill is mixed:

In August, Clinton supported a bill to expand oil and gas production in the Gulf of Mexico, while Obama voted against it. During the 2005 energy debate, Obama backed an increase in vehicle fuel-efficiency standards, which Clinton opposed. Clinton voted against the energy bill itself because it was stuffed with oil industry incentives. But Obama supported the legislation because it included language that would double ethanol demand by 2012.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/31/AR2006123101004.html

That article lays out some other differences.

In the end, I'd say they're very similar. What seperates them are their general political philosophies. Clinton is a self-identified centrist who believes we need to show strength on foreign policy to beat Republicans. Obama is someone who seeks bipartisan solutions, but rejects centrism. And he believes that we can't try to out-tough the Republicans on foreign policy. We need to offer a clear alternative focused on strong diplomacy rather than threats of war.

[redqueen]

28. Thanks... and sorry about that!

I could have sworn she said she voted against it in one of the debates.

:blush:

Oops.