If Hillary had LED on Iraq and opposed Bush's war I would be out

[sidwill]

banging on doors for her.

But instead (although she is too scared to admit it) she made a calculated political decision to vote for it. Hedging her bet just in case Bush actually could win this thing.

So instead of LEADING for PEACE, she triangulated despite knowing full well innocents, women, men and children would die.

You all have seen the pictures, arms and legs blown off, traumatic brain injuries horrible burns, etc...

And I'm not blaming Hillary for actually pulling the trigger for war, that is Bush's fault alone, but....

SHE DID NOT LEAD.

Even though we all know she knew better.

Now, she hides behind the excuse that Bush "tricked" her.

Are there any Duers out there who were also "tricked" by the sophmoric Bush cabal's push for war?

How many of you were tricked? Not bloody many is right.

Yet she says she was tricked by the gang which couldn't shoot staright. Well I call bullshit.


Hillary, Edwards and Kerry had a chance to LEAD, TO LEAD to step up and say NO MR> BUSH WE OPPOSE YOUR WAR.

She didn't.

She Didn't.

Excuse this trangression if you will.

I won't.

She could have led when it actually meant something.

She didn't.

[Tarc]

1. And if Obama had come up with substantive ways to solve the nation's problems

rather than just campaigning one change for the sake of change, I could probably say the same about him.

But he didn't.

So i can't.

[sidwill]

2. Really?

He hasn't come up with any substantive ways to solve the nation's problems? Is that a talking point or a fact. Have you examined any of his proposals at all?

Heres education, agree or disagree but don't throw out the old republican talking point of "they have no plans".


Barack Obama's Plan
Early Childhood Education
Zero to Five Plan: Obama's comprehensive "Zero to Five" plan will provide critical support to young children and their parents. Unlike other early childhood education plans, Obama's plan places key emphasis at early care and education for infants, which is essential for children to be ready to enter kindergarten. Obama will create Early Learning Challenge Grants to promote state "zero to five" efforts and help states move toward voluntary, universal pre-school.
Expand Early Head Start and Head Start: Obama will quadruple Early Head Start, increase Head Start funding and improve quality for both.
Affordable, High-Quality Child Care: Obama will also provide affordable and high-quality child care to ease the burden on working families.
K-12
Reform No Child Left Behind: Obama will reform NCLB, which starts by funding the law. Obama believes teachers should not be forced to spend the academic year preparing students to fill in bubbles on standardized tests. He will improve the assessments used to track student progress to measure readiness for college and the workplace and improve student learning in a timely, individualized manner. Obama will also improve NCLB's accountability system so that we are supporting schools that need improvement, rather than punishing them.
Make Math and Science Education a National Priority: Obama will recruit math and science degree graduates to the teaching profession and will support efforts to help these teachers learn from professionals in the field. He will also work to ensure that all children have access to a strong science curriculum at all grade levels.
Address the Dropout Crisis: Obama will address the dropout crisis by passing his legislation to provide funding to school districts to invest in intervention strategies in middle school - strategies such as personal academic plans, teaching teams, parent involvement, mentoring, intensive reading and math instruction, and extended learning time.
Expand High-Quality Afterschool Opportunities: Obama will double funding for the main federal support for afterschool programs, the 21st Century Learning Centers program, to serve one million more children.
Expand Summer Learning Opportunities: Obama's "STEP UP" plan addresses the achievement gap by supporting summer learning opportunities for disadvantaged children through partnerships between local schools and community organizations.
Support College Outreach Programs: Obama supports outreach programs like GEAR UP, TRIO and Upward Bound to encourage more young people from low-income families to consider and prepare for college.
Support English Language Learners: Obama supports transitional bilingual education and will help Limited English Proficient students get ahead by holding schools accountable for making sure these students complete school.
Recruit, Prepare, Retain, and Reward America's Teachers
Recruit Teachers: Obama will create new Teacher Service Scholarships that will cover four years of undergraduate or two years of graduate teacher education, including high-quality alternative programs for mid-career recruits in exchange for teaching for at least four years in a high-need field or location.
Prepare Teachers: Obama will require all schools of education to be accredited. He will also create a voluntary national performance assessment so we can be sure that every new educator is trained and ready to walk into the classroom and start teaching effectively. Obama will also create Teacher Residency Programs that will supply 30,000 exceptionally well-prepared recruits to high-need schools.
Retain Teachers: To support our teachers, Obama's plan will expand mentoring programs that pair experienced teachers with new recruits. He will also provide incentives to give teachers paid common planning time so they can collaborate to share best practices.
Reward Teachers: Obama will promote new and innovative ways to increase teacher pay that are developed with teachers, not imposed on them. Districts will be able to design programs that reward accomplished educators who serve as a mentor to new teachers with a salary increase. Districts can reward teachers who work in underserved places like rural areas and inner cities. And if teachers consistently excel in the classroom, that work can be valued and rewarded as well.
Higher Education
Create the American Opportunity Tax Credit: Obama will make college affordable for all Americans by creating a new American Opportunity Tax Credit. This universal and fully refundable credit will ensure that the first $4,000 of a college education is completely free for most Americans, and will cover two-thirds the cost of tuition at the average public college or university and make community college tuition completely free for most students. Obama will also ensure that the tax credit is available to families at the time of enrollment by using prior year's tax data to deliver the credit when tuition is due.
Simplify the Application Process for Financial Aid: Obama will streamline the financial aid process by eliminating the current federal financial aid application and enabling families to apply simply by checking a box on their tax form, authorizing their tax information to be used, and eliminating the need for a separate application.

[sidwill]

3. Come on, give me an issue and I'll post his plan.

Then you can retract your overly braod statement and we can get on with the point of this thread and discuss how Hillary failed to lead when she was given the chance.

[MagsDem]

8. Explain why his healthcare plan is better than Hillary's

When it covers only half the uninsured while her's covers all the uninsured for almost the same amount of money?

[krkaufman]

24. Ah, but post #1 was denying Obama had any substantive plans.

Clearly, he has a substantive plan on the health care issue, regardless of whether it falls short in some people's view.

I'll leave it for another to bandy about the health care issue.

[MagsDem]

7. Those are strictly from the dem playbook

There is nothing new about them. And in most cases he is timid in his proposals as compared to the other dem candidates, including Hillary. He doesn't seem to be actually be willing to fight for the full dem agenda. His healthcare policy is a perfect example. Only half the uninsured have coverage under his plan, which costs almost as much as Hillary's plan that ensures coverage for all.

[Cha]

13. Oh yes he has and you sound

so lazy.

[candice]

27. The slogan of hope is very fluid. One can hope for anything. Yes, we can.

[Neecy]

4. I would be, too

I really would like to support her. I don't dislike her personally and I think she'd be competent. It would be a thrill to vote for a woman.

But I can't get past the IWR. Giving Bush a blank check that's caused a refugee crisis, untold civilian deaths, our own military deaths and putting the country in receivership to pay for it all is that big roadblock that keeps me from supporting her. The fact that I suspect she voted yes for political purposes is the final straw.

I won't dance on her political grave if she doesn't win the nomination. I think in some ways she's a tragic figure and I feel a certain amount of personal sympathy for her. But not enough to overcome that vote.

[Cha]

14. The really "Tragic" part are all those

dead Soldiers and dead Iraqis whose blood is stained on those who not only didn't speak out against but voted for it in the mass hysteria.

[candice]

5. The number in Senators who authorized Bu$h to investigate further were 23.

Please read the resolution. I am a pacifist and would have voted for this resolution as phrased. Diplomacy was supposed to be undertaken.

http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf

First is the rationale for the authorization. Go read it. The laws passed in 1998 may have been based on false intelligence.

The finale is Section 3. Section 3 relies on the fact that a president of the United States is not expected to lie to Congress and the American people to start a preemptive war. In retrospect, who would give Bu$h any authorization to do anything, but he was appointed 5-4 by the Supreme Court as the president.

SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION.—The President is authorized to use the
Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary
and appropriate in order to—
(1) defend the national security of the United States against
the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council
resolutions regarding Iraq.
(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION.—In connection with the
exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force
the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter
as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising
such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of
Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his
determination that—
(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic
or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately
protect the national security of the United States against the
continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead
to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council
resolutions regarding Iraq; and
(2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent
with the United States and other countries continuing to take
the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist
organizations, including those nations, organizations, or
persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist
attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.
(c) WAR POWERS RESOLUTION REQUIREMENTS.—
(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION.—Consistent with
section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress
declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory
authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the
War Powers Resolution.
(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS.—Nothing in
this joint resolution supersedes any requirement of the War
Powers Resolution.


Imagine if you were a Senator from the state that suffered Ground Zero. This devastation was still very compelling to you and your constituents. The other Senator from New York voted Yea, too, and he is a bright, admirable man.

The country was hoping that Shrub wasn't just an empty suit. He didn't have much to offer but the corporate-owned media foisted him on a public that doesn't really pay much attention to politics. Gore rolled his eyes while debating Bu$h (Gore's thought bubble: "Why am I here on stage with this MORON!"). Tweety kept repeating the urban legend that Gore said he "invented the Internet"--still good for a laugh among the uninformed. People just wanted the tax cut, not to pay for any services so the election was "close." Had Jeb Bush not been governor of Florida and ensured that many solid Gore votes wouldn't happen (purging voting rolls, stopping recounts), Gore would have been president. But Gore was really too evolved for most Americans. The empty-suit Bush (whatever you want me to be, I am) was sold as the true inspired next new thing. No experience really, but trust him.

What you as a Senator were voting for was an authorization to go to war IF it was justified. Common sense enough. All diplomatic means had been taken and the U.S. was endangered, according to national intelligence (a lie).

What no one other than the Neo-Cons who had planned this war in their heads for years and were just waiting for a malleable "president" who would implement it, was that the Iraq "war" was a done deal. The "intelligence" was cooked. Cheney and Rice and Bush started their TV chants about mushroom clouds and imminent danger. Joe Wilson's report on how there was nothing there was buried. Cheney's motive was oil and Halliburton.

It seemed to me that if Sadaam had nuclear weapons, he would lob them over to Israel since getting them here would be rather difficult, but he could pass them off the Al Queda. Certainly, not many would miss Sadaam if he were to vacate the area. The U.S. made yet other deal with another vicious dictator to further our political agenda at the time. We supported him in his war against Iran and our tax-payer dollars armed him.

Obama was NOT in the Senate and wasn't part of the process. Good. Neither was I. The real question is why those who sold us the war are not being held accountable.

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/02/06/hillarys-tied-hands/

"So Hillary has to navigate perilous waters–trying to expose the superficial gloss of Obama’s positions without being accused of sullying the Obama mythology. For example, a terrific speech in 2002 (almost always selectively quoted) becomes the defining position even though Obama declined to stand with Russ Feingold and others who actually made a stand to oppose the war. When Bill Clinton points out, correctly, the disingenuous blarney of Obama’s so-called valiant stand, it is Bill Clinton who becomes the bad guy."

[Cha]

16. There were many who had the courage

to speak out against the War ON Iraq and hilary wasn't one of them..she went along to get along. And now here she is and she hasn't learned a thing. hilary has no leadership qualities but she wants to be a pres..too bad.

[candice]

26. The resolution was not about any war that wasn't for national security...

...that means, the U.S. was in danger.

Who'd thunk that the President of the U.S. would lie to Congress and the American people to start a preemptive war.

[Cha]

30. Lots of people candace...Millions said NO

TO WAR on Feb 15, 2003..and hilary did NOT listen when we New Yorkers called her office and wrote her letters..they thought they were going to go into Iraq and bomb the shit outta it and it would be over..lots of dead people but they would only be Iraqis, no? And guess what? It didn't work out and politicians like hilary kept covering up for their mistakes but there were some courageous ones who apologized and said they were wrong. Not ol' hilary.

She was wrong..she has no leadership qualities and I will fight to keep her blood soaked hands outta our whitehouse.

[MagsDem]

6. So how do you excuse Obama's votes against dem proposals...

for timelines for withdrawals, and requiring Bush to get congressional authorization to send in additional troops? You seem to feel strongly about it, but you excuse his pro-war and pro-Bush votes on the war. Why?

And how is he leading in any way, shape, or form on the issue? He's not even supporting his own party's efforts to end it.

[mcg]

21. please supply details nt

[mcg]

23. Obama speaking about Lieberman

see
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2827992#2828178

Mr. Lieberman, who is his mentor in the Senate ...

"Joe Lieberman's a man with a good heart, with a keen intellect, who cares about the working families of America."

Then, with applause beginning to build, he finished the thought: "I am absolutely certain that Connecticut's going to have the good sense to send Joe Lieberman back to the United States Senate."

makes me wonder about him

[sandnsea]

9. Jan 2003 "Mr President, Do Not Rush To War"

When Kerry made the vote he specifically said it was for WMD only and if Bush did not follow all diplomatic routes, he would speak out. Kerry did that and has spoke out consistently since, and led to end the war in the Senate too.

He doesn't deserve to be lumped in with Hillary who wouldn't even support timelines until it was clear she had to in order to win the election.

It's not just the vote - it's all the actions that came after the vote as well.

[Cha]

17. Exactly..it started with "the vote" with hilary

and she only made it worse with her subsequent actions.

[Skip Intro]

10. This is fucking bullshit and you know it.

Kerry, and several other Dem senators made clear in their votes that it was not a vote for war. Hillary did as well.

I assume you voted for Kerry/Edwards last time around?

You have Hillary out on some magical limb where she was the only one to vote for the IWR and couldn't wait to see Iraqi kids die. It's fucking bullshit and you know it.

[Cha]

11. Exactly hilary did not lead and

did not have the courage to stand up to bush like Ted Kennedy did along with the other Dem Senators and Senator Lincoln Chaffee.

Obama did have that courage to speak out against a seemingly popular "War on Iraq"..

October 2, 2002

"Good afternoon. Let me begin by saying that although this has been billed as an anti-war rally, I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances. The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union, and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil. I don't oppose all wars.

My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton's army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain. I don't oppose all wars.

After September 11th, after witnessing the carnage and destruction, the dust and the tears, I supported this administration's pledge to hunt down and root out those who would slaughter innocents in the name of intolerance, and I would willingly take up arms myself to prevent such tragedy from happening again. I don't oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism.

What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income - to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression. That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics. Now let me be clear - I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity. He's a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history. I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of Al Qaeda. I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars.

So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the President today. You want a fight, President Bush? Let's finish the fight with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings. You want a fight, President Bush?"

More..
http://usliberals.about.com/od/extraordinaryspeeches/a/Obama2002War.htm

What if hilary had given a speech like this instead of taking the sleazy way out?

[AGirl]

12. would she have been re-elected if she voted no? just wondering.

[sidwill]

15. Exactly, she voted for political expediency.

In other words, instead of thinking about the innocents who would die and trying to stop it she went along to get along.

23 other Dem senators led, but NONE of them had the megaphone like HRC or JK.

She failed to LEAD, now you want to her lead the nation?

[AGirl]

18. can you just answer the question?

[sidwill]

19. Fine I will

The answer is PROBABLY.

Even by mid 2004 war fatigue was setting in ESPECIALLY in New York state.

So yeah, she would have stood a good chance to win but ven more importantly, she would have LED us and she wouldn't have had any substantive primary opposition to boot.

[AGirl]

20. Exactly. So it is not about political expediency

as much as it is about feeling that she is a woman and she has to be seen as tough. Just something for you to think about.

[sidwill]

22. Have you suffered a head trauma?

You just supported my original contention.

You say she voted for it to "be seen as tough" is that as important as doing the RIGHT thing and LEADING for peace?

Are your values that skewed?

[AGirl]

25. I didn't say it is right. I just want to clarify that her being a woman has something to do with her

decision to look tough.

[Skip Intro]

28. You also condemn Obama for saying there was no difference between he and bush on Iraq?

Or that he didn't know how he would have voted on the IWR?

When face with those quotes last Nov. on MTP, he excused them by saying we had Kerry/Edwards running, therefore it wasn't a good time to be speaking out on the war.

Political expediency?

Yes.

[candice]

29. The "superficial gloss of Obama's positions"--declined to stand with Russ Feingold to oppose war

"So Hillary has to navigate perilous waters–trying to expose the superficial gloss of Obama’s positions without being accused of sullying the Obama mythology. For example, a terrific speech in 2002 (almost always selectively quoted) becomes the defining position even though Obama declined to stand with Russ Feingold and others who actually made a stand to oppose the war. When Bill Clinton points out, correctly, the disingenuous blarney of Obama’s so-called valiant stand, it is Bill Clinton who becomes the bad guy."

Read the rest here:

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/02/06/hillarys-tied-hands/

[Az_lefty]

31. That's Hillary in a nutshell. Calculating politician, not a leader.

[killbotfactory]

32. Anyone who thought Bush could pull off the Iraq war was an idiot

Bottom line.