In a nutshell, conservatives vote Clinton; Liberals vote Obama.

[Bonobo]

I edited the title, cause people aren't getting it.

Obama is getting the Progressive Vote. Hillary is getting the more COnservative vote.

If anyone can show similar local results that are as clear as this, please show me. Because I know Western Mass politics and these are crystal clear. When Northampton and Amherst overwhelmingly go for Obama and Easthampton goes for Clinton, it is clear who thinks who is who.

That is all. Awaiting local results that contradict this trend.
-------------------------------
Western Massachusetts Results: From my local paper:

Election officials reported bigger than expected turnouts around the county. Voter turnout in Plainfield reached 57 percent, among the highest in the Valley. Hampshire County Republicans overwhelmingly supported Arizona Sen. John McCain for their party's nomination, while Illinois Sen. Barack Obama edged New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton by capturing about 54 percent of the popular vote among Democrats.

The fiercer battle Tuesday was between Obama and Clinton, and Hampshire County was no exception. Obama took 11 cities and towns in Hampshire County, scoring big wins in Northampton and Amherst, where he won 58 and 66 percent of the vote respectively.

By comparison, Clinton won in nine Hampshire County communities, including Easthampton, where she received nearly 56 percent of the vote.

Given the dogfight between Clinton and Obama, some political experts said the Democrats may not make a nomination until their national convention in August. If this happens, superdelegates - delegates not beholden to the popular vote - would play a big role in awarding the party's nomination.

'If superdelegates determine the election, it will be like the feeling when Bush won without the popular vote,' said Hannahan, who predicted Clinton to win the nomination if the decision is made at the convention. 'It'll be the feeling that somehow, the elite people screwed the little people, and the little people won't vote.'

[flyarm]

1. funny that is not what happened nationwide ...eom

[Renew Deal]

3. This election has been upside down state to state

Obama wins liberals in some states and loses them in others. He wins conservatives in red states and loses them in CT. It's impossible to keep track.

[papau]

25. I agree - the only constant is the under 30 crowd and college towns are Obama - except Boston :-)

[Bonobo]

37. Reminds me of the line from Spinal Tap: "Don't worry, (Boston )'s not a college town."

[papau]

49. I forgot that line - but perhaps attitudes toward professor types is different here

[maximusveritas]

4. Uh...Yes it is

"Obama won his party's most liberal voters while Clinton had a slight advantage with remaining Democrats."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080206/ap_on_el_pr/campaign_exit_poll

[Adelante]

6. Do you have a link?

I've seen several states where Obama takes the liberal Democratic vote. I've never seen national figures to the contrary.

[bicentennial_baby]

2. Any idea on the breakdown for Franklin County?

:)

[jakem]

5. i saw posted in Leyden (approximations from memory, but pretty accurate)

Obama- 145
Clinton- 72


Paul- 4
Romney - 17
McCain- 35
Huckadoodle- 9

[bicentennial_baby]

8. Hey, I was born in Leyden!

During a blizzard, up on Frizzel Hill Rd! :D

I found this:

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/primaries/mass_primary_dem_results_by_town/

:hi:

[jakem]

9. hey, thanks for the link!

i was pretty close!

[OHdem10]

7. Hilary won Mass. because the Working Class Middle Class

Neibohoods turned out for her. CNN's J. King with his map
illustrated as the votes came in--Every Working Class Neighborhood
and district went HRC.

Obama got the upper class votes.

[jakem]

12. do you have any idea how MA demographics play out?

that is some oversimplified analysis.

[Bonobo]

13. Simply untrue unless you think Western Mass is "upper class".

Come visit the Hill Towns sometime! Much prettier than Ohio!

http://www.hilltowns.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Massachusetts

[jakem]

14. Bobobo, where are you at?

greenfield here-

[bicentennial_baby]

18. You're in my hometown!

Born in Leyden, lived in Gfld most of my life. Parents and brother still there. :hi:

[jakem]

20. cool!

I had no idea we had a Hilltown presence in here!

[Bonobo]

22. Northampton.

We should visit!

-Bonobo

[jakem]

23. im there often!

:hi:

[druidity33]

89. Colrain here! nt

[bicentennial_baby]

16. Damn straight!

:thumbsup:

[Bonobo]

10. For Those Who Don't Know Western Mass, a Primer

Northampton and Amherst are wildly liberal. Northampton very much so and Amherst even more so.

Easthampton, where Clinton won, is much more conservative -always.

I follow local politics closely and it is clear as can be: The conservative towns went to Clinton and Progressives to Obama.

Like it or not, disagree with the choices or not. It is 100% clear from THIS anyway that the Western Mass voters BELIEVE that Clinton is more conservative and Obama more liberal.

I won't even mention Boston's reputation for racism here. It may or may not be significant. But here in Western Mass, the home of Daniels Shays the US Revolution, we know who we want to be the first elected President of US in the 21st century! Obama.

[bicentennial_baby]

28. Any idea on who Olver will endorse?

He's one of 4 congressional superdelegates in MA that haven't endorsed yet.

[rox63]

11. A few years ago, Newsweek magazine actually labeled Northhampton "Lesbianville, USA"

And that town gave Obama 58% of the vote. So much for the meme that GBLT folks dislike Obama. Amherst is a big college town, with the largest campus of U Mass, as well as several elite private colleges. And I'm not making it up about the Newsweek story about Northhampton. It was the cover story that week, and that's why I actually bought it that week.

[bicentennial_baby]

15. Obama also won well in the hilltowns

Like Shelburne, Charlemont, Rowe, Colrain, and Heath. Much like Deval Patrick did in his election. There be liberals in them hills! :D

[jakem]

we is liberal-

but we sure aint upper class!

[Bonobo]

21. Know about the "Brotherhood of the Spirit" Commune?

http://www.acornproductions.net/history.php

[bicentennial_baby]

24. My Mom went to HS with Mike Metelica

I grew up with several of the commune kids. :)

[Bonobo]

26. Wow, no shit! Were they generally okay about the experience?

What does your Mom think?

[bicentennial_baby]

27. Yeah, they were normal kids, as far as I could see...

We went to the Center School together, and then NMH. My Mom thinks Mike was a screwed up but generally harmless guy in many respects. Everyone I've know from the commune were good people, overall. :)

[Bonobo]

30. Cool, so am I reading it right or not about the liberal/conservative thing?

[bicentennial_baby]

32. I believe that you are, yes.

Completely. :thumbsup:

[druidity33]

91. i know the current farmer

The Renaissance Community land is now worked by Daniel Botkin. I usually am part of his CSA. Excellent veggies, friendliest of fellows, gorgeous place to visit, very positive folk.

Still some Ren folk kicking around...

[Bonobo]

17. Yup. Northampton is the Lesbian capitol of the US!

Smith College has something to do with that.

http://www.smith.edu/

[Colobo]

19. VIVA OBAMAAAA!!!

[Bonobo]

29. Kicking to see if people can address the larger point.

[calico1]

31. Women, older voters, blue collar workers and

Latinos are mostly Conservative?

:shrug:

[Bonobo]

34. Women=n/a; Older=Usually; Blue Collar = Definitely! NT

[Leopolds Ghost]

73. So blue-collar workers are more conservative even against working class causes?

[northzax]

36. yup, from this perspective

look, a better way to break it down is to say that people who can afford to gamble are going for Obama, they can take the chance, however slim, that he will really be 'transformational' those that have more immediate needs are Hillary people.

Sure, Obama might transform politics, but he's not going to get me subsidized health insurance. if you are doing fine, you can gamble on that. if you are scared of the coming recession, and thinking about how to pay the rent this month, you can't afford to gamble on it.

[Bonobo]

38. So they are voting for Bill Clinton (in reality, I mean. Right?)

Hillary doesn't have any real credentials. does she?

It's the security of Bill. having done the job for 8 years with Hillary helping, is what makes them feel confident. Right?

[northzax]

42. well some, sure

others notice she is a freaking policy wonk, remember her attempts to get healthcare before anyone was talking about it, and want someone who is going to get down and dirty solving problems.

rhetoric is wonderful, 'unity' is wonderful, if you have the luxury. people are scared, and they want someone who is a fighter, someone who will at least SAY she will fight for them.

[Bonobo]

43. Obama is a fighter, have no doubt.

[northzax]

47. really? cause it sounds to me

that he is saying he wants to move past fighting and into a new age of unity and post-partisan love and happiness.

those aren't the words of someone who will get your back in the trenches of the Beltway.

[Bonobo]

51. I disagree. Let me ask you this?

If something like 60% of the nations wealth is is the hands of the richest 5%, then why:

-Does the Republican Party (which represents the interests of the rich) and the Democratic Party (the interests of the workers) come out 50/50?

The answer to this intentionally oversimplified question is that it is single issue politics that we allow to cut us up and distract us from solving the problem of wealth distribution in this society.

You think the "redneck" types that vote for Repubs do it because it is in their best interests economically? Don't you think they want Health Care? Well they aren't going to get it from the Republicans. Those and other issues should be DRAWING people to our party. We don't need to go to their side. They will come to our side.

It's the CUUUUUULT thing, man. :sarcasm:

[northzax]

57. many people vote for reasons beyond their economic interests

no question. but class identity is a powerful thing. blue collar workers, who have been screwed six ways from sunday for the past decade, look back fondly on Bill Clinton's administration, even if they shouldn't. And they see Hillary as being from the same economic school as Bill, as his heir, perhaps. THey see someone else who has been beaten up and abused by the same forces that have fucked them over, and has fought back, tooth and nail, and holds her head high. they see a woman who rescued a bad marriage. they see a woman who stepped out of her husband's limelight and made herself something. and perhaps most importantly, they see someone who is sincerely interested in policy, who cares about details. Many people don't have the luxury of saying 'it will all work out' they need someone who can DO something, not talk about it. they don't want to be part of a 'movement' neccesarily, they want shit done.

I'm not saying this is neccesarily correct, just that it is the impression people get.

[Bonobo]

66. The stats all show that Obama gets the independant vote you are describing, not Hil.

[northzax]

67. I am not talking about independants

I am talking about Democrats. this is still the Democratic Party, isn't it?

[Bonobo]

69. Yes it is.

[Leopolds Ghost]

78. The working class were screwed to the wall in the 1990s.

It was the middle class (who experienced full employment despite declining real wages) and the very poor (who benefited from the "last hired, first fired" full employment despite the end of welfare and affordable housing) who benefited from the Clinton economy and learned to embrace the Clinton doctrine of ending support for the working class and abandoning the inner city poor.

[northzax]

82. I did say it wasn't neccesarily true

but that's the general feeling.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

60. also gays.

[massromantic]

72. It depends on your definiton of liberal, I guess.

We're all forgetting that people can be economically liberal, but socially conservative. I think that's where a lot of older voters might fit in, and blue collar workers. I know my grandma is pro-life, but votes for the Dems every time, because of her belief in economic justice and her love for the social welfare programs brought about by the New Deal.

I think that with Latinos it's sort of the same thing. Progressive politics have always had success in Latin America, but only when social issues are out of the debate.

That's just what I think, but what do I know, I'm from Kansas ;)

[BeyondGeography]

33. Obama won Great Barrington

Another reason it's one of my favorite places.

[Bonobo]

35. It matches up City for City in a Progressive/Conservative axis.

[rucky]

39. College population.

In your example, at least.

A wide look at the map, and the precincts within shows that the liberal-conservative continuum doesn't apply. There's another dynamic going on, here - and it's not even age, class, education or region.

If it comes down to superdelegates, I won't see it as a slap to "the liberals," if that's what you're getting at.

[Blue-Jay]

40. It's not fair to "nutshell" things that are so complicated.

The statistics from last Tuesday draw so many different conclusions, that it's impossible to break it down to any few talking points that actually make sense.

[Bonobo]

46. I just posted my area. I know the area and what it says is unambiguous (about this area).

If others can post about their own local areas, it will be interesting to hear.

[Blue-Jay]

50. I realize that you posted about your area.

Your topic seemed to suggest otherwise, though. The demographics differed so strikingly in other areas of the country, that such a statement can be considered as misleading. There haven't been more than two national demographic trends that anyone has been able to put their finger on.

BREAKING ON MSNBC: Romney drops out!

[Bonobo]

53. I changed the title, dropping the local bit.

It was getting no hits, so I thought my statement needed to be "reframed" to match the current WWF-like nature of the forum.

[Blue-Jay]

56. Damn.

Is that D-Lo Brown, and ......whatshisname.... Mideon?

:rofl:

It's sad that I know that.

[BlackVelvet04]

41. then I guess Hillary would be better in getting those cross-over

republicans, then.

[Occam Bandage]

54. Nope. Obama wins liberals, independents, and crossover Republicans. Hillary wins moderate Dems,

and that's about all.

[BlackVelvet04]

62. you're so full of shit.......n/t

[Occam Bandage]

70. Sorry exit polls don't match your wishes and hopes.

[Straight Shooter]

55. That was my thought upon reading that, as well.

It also gives us an edge to convince conservatives that she is more in line with their thought processes than someone who inspires cult-like devotion. Conservatives gravitate to a down-to-earth, pragmatic, hands-on work philosophy, and they shun idealistic oratory couched in liberal buzzwords.

If you go to any popular right wing sites, not the nutcase ones, but the ones who actually have influence, you'll see Obama consistently referred to as "left wing extremist." They don't say that about Hillary, they just bash her over the head with the Clenis club, just like what we see on DU.

[Leopolds Ghost]

80. So Hillary shuns liberalism? Good to know

[Straight Shooter]

87. Your post tells me all I need to know about why Obama thrives on adoration.

Hillary shuns liberalism. 3 words, over and over. Repeat them to yourself over and over, if it puts you in the Obama mood.

Of course, you know better than to believe she shuns liberalism. Please review her voting record and compare it to Barack's, at least as far as you can compare it when he bothers to vote. You can't slide a piece of paper between them, the margin of difference is so thin.

In truth, he is just to the right of Hillary on their voting records. Yes he is. Yes he is. Yes he is.

[Tektonik]

44. real liberals voted for Kucinich

:P

[Solon]

45. There are very few liberals in the United States, the Democratic Party isn't an exception...

Both Candidates got the "Conservative" vote, simply because there is no political left in this country.

[Tektonik]

48. absolutely, both are disgusting corporatists

:applause:

[Solon]

52. I mean, seriously, no one has any fucking clue what the hell the "left" is...

especially in this nation. Both candidates, are, at best, center-right candidates, and the Democratic party itself is center-right, so they fit in just fine. Our liberals, even Kucinich, are more like centrists to me. But what can I say, I am a "looney leftist".

[La Lioness Priyanka]

58. i didnt realize gays were such a conservative voting bloc or that donnie mcclurkins church

is such a progressive voting bloc

[Solon]

81. ...

:thumbsup:

[krabigirl]

59. My French-born husband is as liberal as they come. He voted for Hillary.

[jakem]

61. ah, but you know... the french-

;-)

[Fermezlabush]

71. You rang? What about us?

[jakem]

74. lovely people, excellent taste in wine and cheese.

[Iceburg]

63. No its more like the SUVs for Obama and the Electric Cars for Hillary

How Hillary Won California

Obama has the Liberal Limoisine vote and that's it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

64. Flip that and then you'll be correct. Obama is the Consevative in this race. He's the one wanting to

bring repukes into the party, not Hillary. He's the one wanting to play nice with murderous criminals, not Hillary. He's the one who wishes to "reach across the aisle" and kiss repuke ass, not Hillary.

Obama is the Repuke wong of the Democratic party.

[in_cog_ni_to]

65. Flip that and then you'll be correct. Obama is the Consevative in this race. He's the one wanting to

bring repukes into the party, not Hillary. He's the one wanting to play nice with murderous criminals, not Hillary. He's the one who wishes to "reach across the aisle" and kiss repuke ass, not Hillary.

Obama is the Repuke wing of the Democratic party.

[kristopher]

90. So that is why Obama supported Lamont

While Bill was campaigning for Lieberman? Hillary, of course, was sitting on the sidelines not wanting to sully her chances in this campaign.

It is arguable that the Clintons secured the election for Lieberman. Is that what you mean by not "wanting to play nice with murderous criminals"?

[in_cog_ni_to]

93. OMG...that has got to be the WORSE argument EVER...to what I said...

:rofl::rofl::rofl: Sad. Just sad. You have no clue what the hell you're talking about.

[robbedvoter]

68. Both the Nation & NY post disagree. And I ain't no conservative - that much I know.

[LadyVT]

75. I am VERY liberal; voting Clinton

[Blue_In_AK]

76. That flies in the face of what everybody believes

about Alaska then. Obama took 75% statewide here with almost 9,000 Democratic caucus participants. I thought we were supposed to be the reddest of the red.

[lastliberalintexas]

77. In a nutshell, (many) liberals are voting for neither

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

79. Deluded.

[Bonobo]

85. The newspaper reporter or the voters of Wester Mass?

I know you don't mean me.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

86. The Concept And Conclusion. n/t

[springhill]

83. Ah, Obama the progressive............

The same progressive who laments the excessives of the 60's, who thinks the republicans are the ones with all the ideas in the last 15 years and who actively had a homophobe helping him campaign? That progressive?

From the Left Coaster:

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/011750.php

Senator Obama's Party of Ideas

If there's one thing that stands out in Sen. Obama's campaign strategy, it is that what he's promising to deliver is *not* change. He's promising to deliver what is really status quo in Washington - namely, Establishment Democrats (and Independents like Joe Lieberman) who believe that Bipartisanship and Civility are most important to get things done (i.e., help Republicans succeed) in Washington. This is what led to seven appalling years under the Bush administration. This is why it is no surprise that although Sen. Obama campaigned for his U.S. Senate seat on grandiose visions on Iraq, the Patriot Act and so on, he could never deliver on those visions. His career in the Senate has made it clear that all of his Bipartisanship and Civility mostly helped Republicans continue their dangerous or obstructionist agenda. Today, he's running on more of the same. I believe that the reasons why he's been successful so far are the following:

The youngest voters - a key part of his base - are not that familiar with the political history of the 80s and 90s and are not likely to notice that what Sen. Obama is campaigning on is ahistorical and is exactly what has enabled Bush and the Republicans for a long time
The media - who have been cheering his candidacy and trashing Sen. Clinton - are inherent believers in the Bipartisanship and Civility model and love it when Democrats say nice things about conservatives or run on conservative memes
Independents - whom Sen. Obama is actively courting - tend to like those who refer to bipartisanship and post-partisan solutions to the country's problems (just ask Joe Lieberman who won in the blue state of Connecticut against fighting progressive Ned Lamont)
Republicans - whom Sen. Obama is also courting aggressively - absolutely love the hagiography of Reagan and lap up Sen. Obama's repeated attacks on fellow Democrats using right-wing memes
Progressive Democrats who should know better keep wondering why "he doesn't get it" on so many of these things - or keep coming up with fanciful Theories of Change - when the truth keeps staring us in the face - he does "get it". He's one of the smartest people in the country and he absolutely "gets it". However, the success of his campaign depends on his pretending not to "get it" and on his continuing to campaign the way he is. (Unless, of course, he is much less smarter in reality than how he comes across - which I doubt).

[Iceburg]

84. Yup -- that's the one /nt

[demo dutch]

88. No true in my case AT ALL! American Progressives ARE conservatives compared to where I come from!

[readmoreoften]

92. So ridiculous and offensive.

So Latinos and older white women are less progressive than African Americans? The young are by nature more progressive than the old?

Absurd assumptions from a blinded cultist.