I am going to pull stuff out of the air, post it , and hope it sticks. No more facts.

[madfloridian]

For starters, I think we should let poor Hillary have the Florida delegates she so badly wants. After all she won the state. Rules, what rules? Who needs rules? Just give them to her. Then Mark Penn and Howard Wolfson can relax, sit back and prop up their feet. They did their propaganda job well.

And Senator Bill Nelson poor guy. He has worked so hard for Hillary in Florida. Then he would be happy as well.

See how easy it is?

And while I am at it..

I was proud to be a Deaniac in 2003, very proud. I was what they called a "cultist" for Dean. Oh, yes, we were called that as well. They said we drank the kool-aid. Even our fellow Democrats said that.

:beer: :beer:

They accused us of worship.



Now that I have become an Obama supporter because I can not tolerate Hillary's trying to take the delegates here....once again I am being accused of being a cultist. This time for Obama.



The media is using a terrible propaganda against us, that we are drinking the kool-aid.

:beer: :beer:

That there is Obama worship going on.



They know that kool-aid thing came from a great tragedy. The deaths of the those who followed Jim Jones to their death by drinking kool-aid in Jonestown.

So hey, I notice there is no credibility left here anymore, that posting stuff that is well-sourced and intelligent means nothing.

SO aren't you glad. I just give up..

Give Hillary her %^$#@& delegates from Florida and give her the win.

I tried.

[MonkeyFunk]

1. well

something will have to be done.

It's suicidal to go to the convention with this clusterfuck hanging over us.

And since Clinton won big, I'll go with your plan.

[Auntie Bush]

14. It's not Hillary's decision to get those delegates or not...It's Deans decision.

Get over it and listen to what he says and stop the sarcasm...will ya?

[joshcryer]

21. It's actually the nominees decision, Dean merely proposes to broker the nominee before they...

...go to the DNC. A smart outcome.

Oh, and btw, it would mean the delegates get seated.

:rofl:

They get seated under any realistic scenario. Can't believe people continue to call for them not to be seated.

[MonkeyFunk]

24. Hillary's not claiming it's her decision

And thankfully, Howard Dean is smarter than some people here - there will be some arangement made prior to the convention.

[Auntie Bush]

25. I realize it's not Hillary's decision...but some people around here act as

it's Hillary being greedy for illegally trying to get those votes counted.

[madfloridian]

26. She is being "political". But if she get the votes...

then she will be the nominee under a cloud...a dark one.

But then who cares what I think.

Getting the FL votes before a nominee is determined would not give her credibility.

[MonkeyFunk]

30. But they voted for her

and she had no advantage in that race over any other candidate.

[MonkeyFunk]

29. I don't understand

what is she doing that's illegal?

[joshcryer]

2. This obsession of yours is unhealthy. Honestly, it is. Let's just hope Dean does the right thing.

I trust Dean. I was behind Dean in 2004. I can see why people are behind Obama now. I think he will broker things out if they come close enough for FL or MI to actually matter.

[blm]

7. It's not an obsession, it's EARNEST CONCERN about the rules and the gaming of rules

to try and manipulate Dean OUT of his chairmanship.

News flash, josh - there are some of us here at DU who PREDICTED in 2005 their moves against Dean would come immediately after Nov2006 election - it came the very next day.

This Florida fiasco was ORCHESTRATED by the same people who put the DNC rulings in place originally for 2003-4 election cycle. They KNEW it was an area that could be demagogued and they went for it. This is beyond delegates at this point, because Hillary expected she'd have them all by Super Tuesday anyway - they started this TO TARGET Dean for removal as soon as Hillary became the nominee. Thank undergod Obama is in still in her way.

[madfloridian]

9. Right blm...it is a turning point in the party.

And it looks like it is going Hillary's way....that's what I see in Florida. That's all I see. "my vote did not count"

[Usrename]

12. I remember the crowds in the streets in Talahasee after Bush v Gore.

I'm not making light of the delegate issue down here at all, but I just don't think that there is any possibility of seating our delegates this year, especially if Obama stays ahead in the count going forward.

There would be a whole lot of blood in the streets here if Dean were to lose, and then have everyone cave in to Hillary's request. I think it would be the end of the party if that were to happen, especially with everything that the Republicans has already done to the minority vote down here. It would be the end of the party.

[joshcryer]

18. The ironic part here is that in this situation Obama supporters are for represenation rather than...

...popular vote. They're for unchanging rules rather than democracy. It's like the exact opposite.

If the DNC was decided on popular vote, rather than delegates, and it went in Hillary's favor, expect an uproar on the Obama supporter side.

If the DNC was decided on delegate count, rather than popular vote, and it went in Hillary's favor, expet, again, an uproar on the Obama supporter side.

If this was Gore vs Bush then people would be saying "seat those delegates, a million people voted." But oh, no, what's more important is whether candidates campaigned in a state. The campaigns trump the votes. A million plus people. It's incredible.

Dean, Hillary, Obama, and Pelosi (two of those people get flamed here, two of those people are women) are for seating those delegates. They've all come out and said it. The only one who wouldn't is Obama. So I guess for everyone but Obama the votes do count, except for when they matter.

The OP wants to spin spin spin this against Hillary, when the reality is that FL dems are assholes who fucked up their voters, and Dean's solution is the fairest thing we'll ever get out of this primary season.

[Usrename]

31. Hillary's motives aren't that pure.

Edwards and Obama had their names pulled from the ballot in Michigan, so they didn't even compete, and she want's to claim those delegates too, even though all the Edwards and Obama supporters in Michigan would be disenfranchised if that were to happen. She is actually requesting THAT scenario, which is much, much worse than the disenfranchment of ALL Michigan Democratic voters. Everything else you are saying makes a whole lot of sense.

I think they are trying to work something out where the FL delegates will be seated, but they would be apportioned according to the nationwide election results, instead of using the FL vote.

:shrug:

[Capn Sunshine]

33. Tell you what, stop the ridiculous logic twisters....lets have a re-do

New Primary. With ALL the candidates who want to participating and on the ballot.

We'll( DNC) buy. We can fund it with the internet
How's that sound?

Ready for an honest contest?

I'll bet when we float that tomorrow Hillary's people will find some way to say that letting EVERYONE vote would disenfranchise somebody.

[madfloridian]

34. Big Bill Nelson has already said no, hell no, "absolutely not".

We think he is in charge of the FL party now.

Bill Nelson speaks for Florida Democrats..."Absolutely not" to caucus.

Karen Thurman was not available for comment.

So they already have said no.

[madfloridian]

3. LoL

I must be making people mad, but I can't see who it is.

Peering.

[madfloridian]

4. It sure feels good not to have to worry about facts and sources.

Ahhhhh..what a relief.

No more :banghead: about the truth.

[sniffa]

5. Mmmmm, Hope flavored Kool Aid

:9

[madfloridian]

6. Hope-flavored...I like that.

:hi:

[sniffa]

10. Me too. I doubt I'll change my new flavor

:hi:

[JVS]

22. You need to show off your koolaide pride with this funky sig-pic

[madfloridian]

8. I think I will start a movement to restore Hillary's Florida delegates...

and here's what I think would happen.

I would be accused of being a Hillarybot.

:rofl:

[Zodiak]

11. The "cult" meme is B.S.

They said it about Dean. I remember.

If it is not a DLC-approved corporate candidate, then any support MUST be the result of a cult of personality. After all, the DLC paid to have the media access! They should win!

Nevermind that accusing the other side's considered opinion a "cult" is an offensive and facile argument.

And the attack against Howard Dean started the very night of Election 2006 if I recall. Rahm Emanuel was all over the news channels claiming the victory strategy only for himself...no mention of the 50 state strategy. I knew that the battle between the DLC/DC Establishment and the grassroots/Howard Dean for the reigns of the party had begun in earnest.

This is also why I will not vote for Hillary. I will not willingly hand the party fully back to the DLC/DC Establishment. I hope Obama wins so we can put this corporate triangulation strategy, its allies, and its "electability" myth to rest...permanently. It's good for the party, the "left", and most importantly, for America.

[madfloridian]

15. It's how the establishment discredits the people of the party.

If you don't believe their way, you are a cult.

[SoxFan]

16. BINGO!

The NH state party chair has played this game for years. If you oppose an establishment candidate, he starts a whispering campaign about how you are "crazy", "off his meds", etc. In 2006, he used to make snarky remarks about "that crazy lady from the seacoast". The "crazy lady" is now New Hampshire's first woman congresswoman, and is doingf a damn good job in Washington.

[madfloridian]

19. It's what the DLC did to Dean in 2003. They were very obvious.

The DLC called us "fringe" for being against the war

"The DLC memo is titled "The Real Soul of the Democratic Party."
But it should be "Kneecapping Howard Dean."

However, it is so ludicrously ham-handed, Dean trumpeted it himself on his campaign web site. (A smart rapid response that bodes well for the future.)

If the memo was a principled argument over what the party should stand for, that would be fine. You can have honorable disagreements within one's party.

But the memo is nothing but a string of half-truths and contradictions designed to ward off insiders from backing Dean, while at the same time undermine Dean's support from the Left.....""

[Coexist]

13. :: I'm donating $72,451 to Candidate X, who's with me ::::

[LittleClarkie]

17. Welcome to the Obama camp from a Kerry sychophant

or am I a minion? I always forget.

Gotta love the name-calling.

Anyway, glad to have you.

I wonder if Bill Nelson was hoping for a nice juicy administration post if Hillary gets in.

[madfloridian]

20. Yep, like VP

Vice President Nelson....that is his dream.

[tnlefty]

23. No, I wouldn't be glad. I enjoy reading your posts,

and I appreciate the thought and the effort that you put into them.

I'm in no one's camp, but the name calling, snark and general hateful crap is totally out of control. The cult meme is pissing me off as well. And I'm beginning to wonder if the spin, spin, spin from some supporters doesn't make them too dizzy to post, but it continues.

If either were to win via a method that didn't seem above board to someone like me, much less the supporters of either candidate, I think all hell would break loose because I know that it would infuriate me.

Never give up. :hi:

[madfloridian]

28. Thank you.

I don't know when something has made me so angry. The whole party here ganged up on Dean, it was organized. The media and the bloggers did their share of blaming him also. No one in Florida defended or clarified. It was like the Iraq war, when everyone was mindlessly on board.

I appreciate your post.

[Zodiak]

27. K&R

Because it is critical that we understand that the future of this party is at stake.

[madfloridian]

32. Yes, it is.

Very crucial.

[madfloridian]

35. Kick for cultism....which has even made the front page of DU

Joy Joy....Obama cultism has arrived on the front pages of DU.

We have arrived, fellow cult members.

[kdpeters]

36. Why not just schedule a special election and win the delegates fair and square?

Oh, right. Because Obama would win them.

By the way MADFl, I read through your journals about the delegate mess and the associated MyDD links. Great stuff. I learned a lot that I didn't understand before. Thanks a million.

[madfloridian]

37. It really has outraged me so much.

Leading up to election day after such a prolonged early voting...Hillary was losing her margin all along the way.

Florida won't let another vote be taken, because now Obama might win.

Thanks for reading...and thanks for the kind words.

[moondust]

38. Don't give up!

It's worse than just breaking some party rules and spitting on the rule makers. It's worse than arrogantly believing it's okay to keep forcing their illegitimate case down people's throats until they get their way.

It is wholly undemocratic to pretend that the "will of the people" had anything to do with that fiasco in Florida after the candidates did not campaign there and nobody took it seriously because it did not count. But who cares about democracy? Winning is the only thing, right Hillary?

Michigan is even worse because major candidates were not even on the ballot!

Outstanding work on this, madfloridian!

[IndieLeft]

39. K&R!

Very well put.