**** OFFICIAL REAL ISSUE THREAD #2: HEALTHCARE ****

[Labors of Hercules]

(Real Issue Poverty here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4490156&mesg_id=4490156 )

With the release of "SICKO", Michael Moore showed us just how fucked up he thinks our healthcare system is here in the United States... Here is his simple prescription for changing the healthcare system in the US:

1) Every Resident of the United States must have free, Universal Healthcare for life.

2) All Health Insurance companies must be abolished.

3) Pharmaceutical companies must be strictly regulated like a public utility.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/health-care-proposal/index.php?action=print

Do you agree with his assessment? What do you propose we do about it?

Here is Hillary Clinton's plan on Healthcare:

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/

And here is Barack Obama's Healthcare plan:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

WHAT IS THE BEST PLAN TO DEAL WITH HEALTHCARE IN THE UNITED STATES? --> DISCUSS:

*****AND PLEASE INCLUDE YOUR PERSONAL HEALTHCARE STORIES*****

lots of juicy information, links, op-eds, ideas and any other relevant details in support of an INFORMATIVE discussion on this important subject!

[madeline_con]

1. #3 sucks

Our public utilities have us by the short hairs. We have no alternative but to pay what they think they're worth.

Another thing: I have a SIL whos suffers severe hypochondria. How many of her "ailments" will be covered, resulting in MRIs, Xrays, surgery, "treatment plans", etc., before she will have the choice of psychiatry or nothing, take it or leave it?

In other words, how do we remove the leeches from the system?

[Labors of Hercules]

7. That's up to the doctors.

But if it isn't a prohibitive issue in every other western country, why should it be for ours?

Your response is, well, for lack of a better term: "suspect". I'll just leave it at that.

[madeline_con]

12. You caught me, I'm a troll.

Good work, Sherlock! :eyes:

[Labors of Hercules]

15. HA! Not quite what I meant...

I just think it's impossible to have a high quality and efficient healthcare system without very careful and specific regulation. It's not an issue that can be fixed by applying a conservative mindset (We've seen that quite clearly already).

[madeline_con]

18. I keep hearing stories about the bad points of the plan.

Pwople traveling to other countries for surgery, etc.

How DO we extricate the sucking leeches who want to be "treated" so they can get disability?

How many of these people who have no health care are already eligible for help (medicaid), but don't have it, for various reasons?

[Labors of Hercules]

23. what plan?

And there is no need to "extricate the sucking leeches". Doctors are more than capable of deciding what treatment is or is not appropriate, and who is legitimately disabled and who is not.

You are discussing a strawman issue from a judgemental standpoint that I am beginning to find offensive.

So, that being the case, I bid you goodnight.

[madeline_con]

25. If doctors are so darn keen, why do they continue to treat

people who have nothing wrong with them, except a mental condition that keeps them thinking they're sick?

Do you really believe that with a guarantee of payment from the government, these doctors will STOP unnecessary treatment on hypochondriacs?

[Radical Activist]

21. You're wrong about public utilities.

Most of them have lower rates, more reliable service, better maintain the grid, and better environmental records than private utilities. Privately owned utilities are for suckers.

Do you know of a private utility that asks you want rates you want to pay?

[Labors of Hercules]

22. I think you're right...

seems Ms. Con doesn't like being called to the mat for her obvious conservative bias.

[madeline_con]

28. I don't know of a private utility.

I have to pay what FPL says I have to pay. Some competition would be nice, and more in keeping with anti-monopoly laws.

[Radical Activist]

29. Most private utilities have monopoly power.

Competition is a completely different issue from private v. public utilities. Most private utility customers also have to pay whatever they're told to pay. Since public utilities are often held accountable by elected officials then public utility customers have a greater voice than private customers.

[madeline_con]

30. Thanks for the info...

I'll go google for a while. :hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

2. It's Amazing. If You Go Through Each One's Site And Read Their Proposals, They're Both Amazing

candidates.

It's amazing how once you peel back the childish and outrageous rhetoric from posters here, and instead just go to the websites and read for yourself, how easy it is to be proud of them both. They both kick ass, and the differences between them are very slight.

I just happen to go with Hillary because I do think her experience matters, that she would be more prepared to restore our good name globally, and because I think she'd be stronger at defending against the RW attack machine.

But whether I think she'd be the better nominee or not, Obama is one hell of a candidate too. They both have great plans and outlooks on so many things, and both make me proud to be a Democrat. If Obama wins, I'll be thrilled. If Hillary wins, I'll be thrilled. I think these are the two best candidates we've had in quite some time.

[OzarkDem]

3. Dems are finally "getting it" on health care

OMC :hug:

[Labors of Hercules]

8. I'll join in on this one...

:grouphug:

[OzarkDem]

11. Yep

:grouphug:

[Hieronymus]

4. I agree with Moore's statement. Private health insurance is the enemy.

[Labors of Hercules]

5. A story:

A cousin of ours was in a car accident that rendered her comatose and in need of constant supervised care along with full life support for two years. There was no question of whether to pull the plug, and whatever needed to be done to keep her alive was done. The cost was enormous, and would have bankrupted our family...

If it had happened here in the United States.

Fortunately, my cousin is Colombian, and the entire amount our family paid for her care, while not being free, totaled less than $2000.

She woke from her coma three months ago, and although she is now moving a little slower and a little stiffer, she is very much alive.

[OzarkDem]

6. Interesting

So even Colombia has some form of universal health care?

[Labors of Hercules]

13. It is heavily subsidized...

and culturally non-profit, (which means it is not regulated, but UNDERSTOOD that medical care is not to be profitable) This idea permeates the entire healthcare system, and doctors work very closely with patients, giving them the tools they need to take responsibility for their own preventative care.

The population is much less ignorant as a whole about health and medicine. (you don't even have to have a prescription to buy most drugs).

[OzarkDem]

9. Comparing the candidates

I've already posted a lot on this topic, but will cover it again.

Clinton's and Obama's plans are similar, but Obama's has the fatal flaw of not having a mechanism for universal covereage. It continues to place an undue burden on the health care and health insurance system by allowing those w/o health insurance to wait until they get sick to buy into the system.

Enforcement of regulations on insurance companies to cover and renew everyone regardless of pre-existing or existing conditions is also very important. Neither candidate has said much about strong enforcement and without it, insurance companies could simply include the cost of any penalty for denying coverage in the cost of doing business. Enforcement has to be strong and substantial.

[proud patriot]

10. Kick

[OzarkDem]

14. K & R

[Bluenorthwest]

16. Moore is right

The insurance companies are the problem.

[Labors of Hercules]

17. What about all the people who work for insurance companies?

[madrchsod]

19. ask those who worked steel in the usa

no one cared about us---we were told to retrain for the computer age! well that came and went....

[madrchsod]

20. my friend from ghana

could`t believe we did`t have "free" health-care. even ghana has a form of universal health-care.free up to 18 but you have to be in school,mothers and children. if you work it`s a small fee, if you don`t work you don`t get free care. he`s also eligible for retirement money even though he`s a us citizen now.
he also could`t understand welfare payments to people who do not work...

[Labors of Hercules]

24. I join him in his not understanding.

I don't get it either.

[madeline_con]

31. "if you don`t work you don`t get free care"

I haven't heard whether either Dem candidate supports this idea. Do people who refuse to work get coverage under the proposed U.S. plan?

[Jed Dilligan]

26. Not really happy with either, Obama's slightly better

Mandated accounts seem like a scam to me. I'm willing to skip this step and go straight to single payer, thank you very much. Even if it takes a few more years of suffering.

One of my closest friends has end-stage kidney disease covered by Medicaid and his partner is dying of cancer. He'll be homeless when she dies because the government will take the house to pay for his dialysis.

[Labors of Hercules]

35. Single payer is ultimately the way to go, but...

There is a multi-billion dollar private healthcare infrastructure that will have to be reorganized first.

[Jed Dilligan]

36. I say let it be and build another one alongside it

that's cheaper and better. Let the other one starve to death as the government poaches all its customers. We could probably do it for the price of a year in Iraq.

[Deja Q]

27. I like Hillary's plan.

Since I've made plenty of snide remarks about Hillary, I must therefore be equal as to where her ideas are terrific.

"Individuals: will be required to get and keep insurance in a system where insurance is affordable and accessible."

As long as we have jobs, her claim we are required to have it becomes a moot point.

What happens when people lose their jobs? That's a bit of a problem right now, for almost stupidly obvious reasons.

[Jed Dilligan]

32. Kick

GDP is really boring right now

[OzarkDem]

33. Kick

[awaysidetraveler]

34. Moore is right, and HRC and Obama are wrong. There's little substantive difference in policy.

Obama's position is a little better in my mind, because a mandate won't mean that I can afford the insurance.
I like his plan for transparency.

Hillary's position does have some minor benefits on paper, though I don't have faith that she'll perform.
Hillary's plan for the accountability of doctors and patients has some value, but I don't trust her to pull it off.

After all, she failed once in 1993 in closed doors sessions with health-care companies. After, the congress continued
pumping pork into Medicaid and Medicare.

I strongly support Obama's position on other issues, like the Iraq War.

[Beaverhausen]

37. thanks for starting this thread!

:hi: