What EXACTLY!! Will Obama "CHANGE!?"- What is his RECORD!!

[Orwellian_Ghost]

Please can you who support Obama give me your top ten things (no platitudes and slogans i.e. "The political climate"), or even top five, that will be altered in any meaningful way if Obama is elected president?

Can you tell me how that will be done?

Can you show me any examples in Obama's record that would corroborate your beliefs?

[ursi]

1. What exactly would you change? What is in your record?

[Orwellian_Ghost]

3. Lots

But let's get back to the topic at hand.

[AX10]

5. You can't answer because you know that Obama...

is a horse and pony show. His gatherings reak of tent revival with a slick huckster who talks the good talk but does not do the walk. It's just like a motivational speaker, a bunch of meaningless bullshit.

[Vautrin]

16. Empty Suit

Obama is an empty suit (albeit he wears them well)and nominating him for President or even as VP will enable the party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[AX10]

27. Welcome?!?

:hi:

I'm not sure if you'll like it here. Obama's followers have taken over this place.

But anyways, it's good to see others who know that Obama is not all he says he is.
:kick:

[Danger Mouse]

28. Oh, you're a laugh riot.

:rofl:

[Political Heretic]

55. AGAIN

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4473387&mesg_id=4473387

[Donnachaidh]

14. do you people EVEN pay attention to the ISSUES?

rather than answer the question resort to schoolyard neener neener tactics.

but nooo, don't call them a cult! :wow:

[sandnsea]

45. I post his record ten times a fucking day

None of you bother to read it and the ones who do miraculously FORGET they read it ten minutes later.

[journalist3072]

2. They really can't answer you. They haven't a clue. eom

[Political Heretic]

56. AGAIN

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4473387&mesg_id=4473387

[HeraldSquare212]

4. He won't start stupid wars. That's baseline for me. nt

[Donnachaidh]

7. :yawn:

another supporter who cannot answer questions. :shrug:

[HeraldSquare212]

11. That's a yawn to you? Nice to know where people stand.

I was being sincere, not taking a shot. He's not my first choice, but that's one of the main reasons I support him instead of Hillary.

[Donnachaidh]

20. exactly HOW is he going to stop the Middle East problem?

If you don't want yawning, answer the questions without saying *he won't start dumb wars*. Because frankly, ANYONE who is the next pres will not "start dumb wars". That's a NON answer to a serious OP question.

Deflection from the topic at hand comes in all sorts of ways, as you well know. :eyes:

[HeraldSquare212]

24. Clinton supported a dumb war and has been a hawk on Iran.

It seems to me very likely she will keep us in Iraq in a big way and/or start a war with Iran. Sorry if you don't like my analysis. But that is a big point for me in deciding whom to support.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

8. Are you sure?

How did you come to that conclusion?

What are his foreign policy positions?

What are his views on US militarism?

On US imperialism?

I await.

[HeraldSquare212]

13. I can only compare him to the available alternative.

As between the two of them, yes, I'm sure.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

33. Sounds like

operant conditioning.

[HeraldSquare212]

36. You mean, making decisions based on actual facts?

any alternative conclusion sounds like operant conditioning to me.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

46. What facts?

Hey great someone has brought that out.

Now back to the OP.

Present THE FACTS that will prove or even hint at Obama bringing about meaningful-substantive change.

That's why I brought it up.

So far no facts presented.

Let's start with the US military budget. What are the facts?

[HughMoran]

6. Yes, we can!!11!1

:P

[Political Heretic]

57. AGAIN

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4473387&mesg_id=4473387

[Hutzpa]

9. And where exactly did Hillary

gets her 35 years experience from? being the first lady does
not qualify her as President.

[HughMoran]

17. have an issue speaking good of your candidate

...or is the biggest part of your "support" hatred of the other candidate?

[Bonobo]

10. List Hillary's exact plans and I will reciprocate.

[Donnachaidh]

22. neener neener response

typical. :eyes:

[Orwellian_Ghost]

23. This is not

a pro-Hillary thread.

This is not meant to be misconstrued as a pro-Hillary theme though I understand how you could misinterpret it that way. Please leave off with the binary thinking.

Hillary does not have any such plans.

Nor does Obama.

Now back to the topic at hand. Prove me wrong on the latter statement. I'm interested in specifics.

[Bonobo]

34. OK. He expresses a stronger anti-war message to my ears than Hillary.

Is that good enough?

[Orwellian_Ghost]

38. That's it?

What does that mean?

What is that saying?

How strong was that message every time he and Hillary VOTED TOGETHER for war funds?

It is not good enough. Talk is cheap.

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

12. His Story, His Mind an his campaign promises?

[jackson_dem]

15. Obamites won't acknowledge that St. Obama even has a record

;)

[Political Heretic]

54. AGAIN

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4473387&mesg_id=4473387

[KittyWampus]

18. he is for net neutrality, diversifying media ownership, wireless spectrum owned/operated by public

[Auntie Bush]

29. And how does he differ from Clinton on these issues? nt

[KittyWampus]

47. all she mentions on her pathetic website is saving kids from tv and broadband

[The_Casual_Observer]

19. The whole thing is intended to counter Hillary's experience & connection with Bill.

They have made up this big deal about how he's "new" and everything will be done differently, no more "Divisive partisan politics". This has an appeal to politically unaware reality challenged individuals and pundits looking for new grist for their mills.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

30. False

This has nothing to do with the current memes. Hillary's record is out there, it is long and it is deplorable.

Obama uses only platitudes AND votes with Hillary on 94% of the votes and 100% of the time on the major issues so please address the OP with specifics.

This is politics and not marketing so slogans aren't good enough.

Or is it?

[The_Casual_Observer]

35. ?

Your reply made no sense whatsoever.

[Jane Austin]

21. He will change the way policy is hammered out.

Hillary made her Healthcare Task force as secret as Dick Cheney's Energy Task force was.

Obamam has promised to put his Healthcare Task Force's deliberations live on C-SPAN for all of us to see.

Clinton = Secrecy
Obama = Transparency

[DURHAM D]

25. I'll tell you what he will change.

He will change his followers to "non-believers" in a short period of time.

[Political Heretic]

58. AGAIN

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4473387&mesg_id=4473387

[Orwellian_Ghost]

26. Knee-jerk

If one questions Obama people immediately think it's about Hillary and vice-versa.

Is this a disease?

[HughMoran]

31. It's called GDP syndrome

There is no known cure, even House has no clue on this one! :D

[Skidmore]

52. Nah, this type of thread is a lazy citizen thread.

Go do some research instead of standing in one place and jumping up and down and screaming you don't know enough to make a judgment. His plans are published on his website in his own words. He gives speeches. Political analysis exists about everyone's plans and promises. Go do your research.

Otherwise this thread joins a long line of lazy citizen threads just like it posted by people more interested in stirring the cesspool that is GDP right now than in actually learning about the candidates.

[niceypoo]

32. Nothing will change under Obama

Not because he doesnt want change, it is because the system is corrupt.

Until we have publicly financed elections, we will have the same corporate controlled system.

Until http://www.campaignfinancesite.org/court/buckley1.html">this law is removed, nothing will change.

[Coexist]

37. Obama has a history of passing progressive legislation

with republicans. Not stomping your opposition, just so you can win and get nothing done - finding that bit of common ground and expanding on it. THAT is the change I hope for. The hating is getting old, its worn out country out.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/03/AR2008010303303_pf.html

People who complain that Barack Obama lacks experience must be unaware of his legislative achievements. One reason these accomplishments are unfamiliar is that the media have not devoted enough attention to Obama's bills and the effort required to pass them, ignoring impressive, hard evidence of his character and ability.

<snip>
Consider a bill into which Obama clearly put his heart and soul. The problem he wanted to address was that too many confessions, rather than being voluntary, were coerced -- by beating the daylights out of the accused.

Obama proposed requiring that interrogations and confessions be videotaped.

This seemed likely to stop the beatings, but the bill itself aroused immediate opposition. There were Republicans who were automatically tough on crime and Democrats who feared being thought soft on crime. There were death penalty abolitionists, some of whom worried that Obama's bill, by preventing the execution of innocents, would deprive them of their best argument. Vigorous opposition came from the police, too many of whom had become accustomed to using muscle to "solve" crimes. And the incoming governor, Rod Blagojevich, announced that he was against it.

<snip>
The police proved to be Obama's toughest opponent. Legislators tend to quail when cops say things like, "This means we won't be able to protect your children." The police tried to limit the videotaping to confessions, but Obama, knowing that the beatings were most likely to occur during questioning, fought -- successfully -- to keep interrogations included in the required videotaping.

He got the legislation passed - even though both Rs and Ds were afraid of being soft on crime.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Paul+B.+Hertneky%3a+Let%27s+compare+the+public+accomplishments+of+Clinton+and+Obama&articleId=11dc4bb6-bc19-4f73-97a4-400fbd3dad27

INSTEAD OF COMPARING Hillary Clinton's and Barack Obama's experience -- a vague set of claims -- I turned my attention toward accomplishments. Not what they've accomplished for themselves, but what they've accomplished for others.

<snip>
After graduating from Columbia, Obama went to work with churches that organized job training and other programs for residents of a massive housing project in Chicago. He persuaded the city to provide summer jobs, remove asbestos, repair toilets, pipes and ceilings. He went door to door, offering help for three years, then went to Harvard Law School.

<snip>
As a member of the minority party of the Senate for six of his eight years there, Obama wrote a health insurance law that covered an additional 20,000 children, a welfare reform law, an earned-income-tax-credit law for working-poor families, and death penalty reform that passed unanimously. During his last two years in the majority, he sponsored 780 bills, 280 of which became law.

<snip>
Since Obama entered the U.S. Senate in 2004, he has joined Republican Richard Lugar in writing a law that funds the destruction or securing of loose nuclear and conventional weapons (shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles, for example) throughout the world. He also introduced the first bill, that soon became law, to fund and address pandemic flu preparedness.

Obama's accomplishments show greater efficiency and clarity of purpose, forming productive alliances, making the most of his comparatively short career.

He can effect change - because he takes a good progressive idea, and finds a way to work with members of both parties to get it passed. Not introduced. Not discussed. Passed.

If you look at his record in the Ill. Senate - you can see that healthcare and poverty were his primary causes - look what he got passed - while the Dems were a minority party for 8 years.

He also taught Consitutional Law. Also pretty important at this juncture.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

39. Centrist

Hopefully you weren't posting that to buttress the notion of Obama as an agent of Change. Hopefully you will get beyond the scant info and look into the details where the devil resides.

It is precisely because Obama can be counted on to toe the corporate line and "work with the Repubs" that he is an acceptable candidate for the people who decide such things. And as your post shows to any who are paying attention Obama can be counted on to do the bidding of the large corporate interests in a user-friendly well packaged fashion.

FYI the Obama universal health care lie is the same as Clinton's meaning MANDATORY health care. Why do you think the insurance companies are quite fine with both of their barely indistinguishable proposals? Again, look into the details.

[HeraldSquare212]

40. What's your point - we should vote for Nader?

[Orwellian_Ghost]

42. Knee-jerk response

Hadn't occurred to me. Didn't know Nader was running.

There can be cognitive dissonance in addressing the subject matter but please stick to the topic at hand.

The point is simple and it is in the OP. Address that.

[HeraldSquare212]

43. But you seem to be attacking Obama and Clinton. who is left?

[Coexist]

41. the legislation I discussed was not centrist.

Not at all.

He has already worked at AND PASSED healthcare expansion. I would prefer single-payer, personally, but I am pragmatic enough to realize that it won't be implemented in one fell swoop - I am fine with a good start.

Yes - working together for the good of the citizens IS change.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

44. Are you familiar

with Obama's national health care proposal?

How many people would remain uninsured? How many people would still have cumbersome premiums? How EXACTLY would it work?

Again why are the FOR-PROFIT insurance companies quite satisfied with this candidate and his propsal?

We all need to ask these hard questions.

[johnnydrama]

48. how about

He'll win, and she won't.

If they agree with each other 99% of the time, shouldn't we vote for the one who will win?

[zulchzulu]

49. Your keyboard appears to be working...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/zulchzulu/116

Go there...check it out. Then come back and complain.

:boring:

[pathansen]

50. He gives great speeches and is a civil rights activist

But I don't feel this is enough to make him electible.

[dkf]

51. My #1 - Open Government-Make all meetings open and transparent

#2 Ethics reform-no ex=government official can become a lobbyist until 5 years out of service.
#3 Out of Iraq - Commander in Chief baby!
#4 Presidential contact with our friends and our enemies
#5 Economy Economy Economy.
#6 Restoration of Habaeus Corpus
#7 Shut Down Guantanamo
#8 Lessen reliance on foreign oil
#9 Global warming-trade caps
#10 Affordable Health Care for All

[Political Heretic]

53. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO ANSWER THIS?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4473387&mesg_id=4473387