rateyes
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:41 PM
Original message |
Take the delegates away from MI and FL, along |
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with the superdelegates...don't seat any of them. Subtract those delegates from the total, and make half plus one of those left the number needed for the nomination.
I hate it for the FL and MI voters, but the State Democratic Party leaders in those states intentionally violated the rules, and now are crying that they have to pay the consequences for their choices.
Let the voters of FL and MI hold their Party Leaders accountable in the next primaries if they want to show their displeasure with the politicians who disenfranchised their votes.
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Pathwalker
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:44 PM
Response to Original message |
1. I posted this idea too, earlier. But no one will answer |
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my question about the status of the Super Delegate's votes. I've tried for a week now - and no one will answer. I find that troublesome, since they are the ones most responsible for this mess.
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UALRBSofL
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
4. Well, I disagree with this |
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I live in Florida and I'd like our delegates seated accordingly. I'm standing firmly behind Senator Nelson and the FL Dem Party.
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Mojorabbit
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
10. I live in florida too |
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and I want a do over. I know too many people who did not vote cause they thought it would not count.
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thoughtcrime1984
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
15. Of course you are. You favor Hillary, not what is fair. nt |
MS Liberal
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
6. No way. The rules are in place and should be followed. |
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Super Delegates are in; Michigan and Florida are out. The candidates with the most delegates, pledge plus super, wins. The loser is vice-president. This is not difficult. Obama and the media are just looking for headlines.
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rateyes
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
19. Good idea you had. nt |
shaniqua6392
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:46 PM
Response to Original message |
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and I want my vote to count. It will rest on the head of the national party if they are not seated. The whole system needs an overhaul and we need to quit letting Iowa and New Hampshire set the tone for the whole election. I want a national primary day and it should be on a Saturday with absentee ballots available.
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rateyes
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
20. If you wanted your vote to count, you should have pushed |
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the state party to follow the rules.
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Carolina
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
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fight with your bone-headed state party officials to abide by the rules so your vote would count. The announcement that your vote would mean nothing because of your state party shenanigans was made ages ago. Where ere you then...
Essentially, you want to cheat!
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cyclezealot
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #29 |
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We want our vote to equal those of the states first to go. If not forget it. No predecessor state should reduce our choices, when they left us with the crums. A national primary finding a way to de-emphasize money or forget it.
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Capn Sunshine
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Sat Feb-09-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
52. You don't understand something basic. Your vote in the general wouldn't count if you broke the rules... |
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and the same concept is at play here. No one finds your personal position positive, but the fact is if you didn't register to vote and then voted your vote wouldn't count either.
There are rules, and your party knew the consequences, and betrayed everyone like you in the process.
It's not to late to start an insurgency and throw those rascals out and regain control of your party.
But to many , complaining is easier than the real work.
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Mz Pip
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:47 PM
Response to Original message |
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enough about party rules but I'll throw this out anyway. Why not just seat all the delegates but relegate their status to "uncommitted"?
Or have new primary elections in those states. So what if it costs a lot of money. This election already expensive.
Mz Pip :dem:
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:49 PM
Response to Original message |
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let the party tell Florida and Michigan to fuck off. Who needs those states in the general election?
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rateyes
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
22. MI and FL already told the National Party to fuck off... |
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now they are paying the consequences for their rule breaking. The blood is on the hands of the state parties. They should have followed the rules.
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #22 |
39. So you think it's wise |
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to give up on them in the GE?
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Capn Sunshine
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Sat Feb-09-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #39 |
53. and how would that happen? |
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You actually think no one would vote Democratic in the General ? I'm not drinking that Kool aid, amigo.
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Carolina
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
30. those states like your candidate |
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want to change the rules after the fact.
Both suck!
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
40. And writing them off for the general election |
Carolina
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #40 |
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Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 01:46 PM by Carolina
but as usual HRC folks spin and distort
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #44 |
46. Why are you arguing with my avatar? |
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I'm talking about the wisdom of pissing off two big states we'll need in November.
Do you want to discuss that, or just make childish slams?
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Capn Sunshine
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Sat Feb-09-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #46 |
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Your take is wholly mistaken. Only Hillary's campaign asserts otherwise. It's just illogical on its face, and specious if it's actually advertised.
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Feb-09-08 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #54 |
55. We will need Florida and Michigan in in November |
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We need to address this problem. A blind adherence to the rules at the expense of the election is brain-dead.
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julialnyc
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
31. I like Hillary..... but Michigan and Florida told the DNC to fuck off and everyone knew their standi |
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If Michigan and Florida want to blame someone they need to look equally at their states. I'm sure Ohio would have liked being earlier in the process (and I personally think as an important state should be), but they didn't break the rules and now will have a very decisive vote. Many states don't think it's fair where they fall in the schedule, but not everyone can go first (unless we change the system).
You may not like the rules, but they were the agreed upon rules and Florida and Michigan made a huge error in moving their election.
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #31 |
41. That's in the past... |
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now we have to look ahead. Do you think it's wise to write off those two important states for the general election?
I think it's brain-dead.
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julialnyc
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Sat Feb-09-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #41 |
49. While I don't think it's wise to "write them off" I think they were written off ages ago when the ru |
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They were written off ages ago when the rules were established. Unless they can throw together another contest, they have to follow the rules .It would be unethical to change rules from counting no one (as previously established), to handing it to someone. They need to re-do or follow their own rules.
Undoubtedly people will be unhappy either way, but Florida and Michigan state officials are the ones to point the finger at. I highly doubt people will just vote for McCain in rebellion.
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MonkeyFunk
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Sat Feb-09-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #49 |
50. Many Democrats will just not vote at all |
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I see no benefit to adhering to a strict reading of the rules if it loses us the general election.
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DesEtoiles
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message |
7. MI and FL need to hold new primaries if the want their delegates to count. |
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With both candidates having a fair and full chance to campaign. That didn't happen before. Therefore, the vote was tainted, and the delegates cannot count.
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Pathwalker
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
9. There will be no second primary in Michigan, unless |
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State Law is changed, and the Republicans here in Michigan won't allow that to happen.
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rateyes
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
23. Hold a caucus. The state can't control that. nt |
Pathwalker
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #23 |
26. The Repuclican can - and will. State law would have to be changed. |
stevenleser
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
11. This is the only fair solution that satisfies most people |
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I think you know where I stand having written two articles now on the subject. Over 80% of respondants indicate that new caucuses would be satisfactory to them. It is now up to the Michican and Florida state Democrats along with the DNC and the two candidates to try to make this happen.
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madfloridian
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #11 |
12. Nelson is boss here and he says a resounding NO |
stevenleser
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #12 |
14. I know that. I called him out on it too. Not sure if you saw my 2nd article... |
rateyes
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #12 |
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Nelson sucks. I hope the people of Florida vote his ass out when they get the chance. He screwed them.
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Pathwalker
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #11 |
13. It's also up to Michigan Republicans. |
DEMocracity
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Sat Feb-09-08 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
madfloridian
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:52 PM
Response to Original message |
8. The nominee will be selected without FL or MI delegates. |
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Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 12:52 PM by madfloridian
And I believe that includes superdelegates. God, I hope so. Then Nelson and Hastings and Wasserman Schultz will have hissy fits. http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1795
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UALRBSofL
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Sat Feb-09-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
16. Considering Fl /MI votes don't count |
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Then they shouldn't count in the GE.
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madfloridian
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #16 |
17. Get back to me when you read up on things. |
UALRBSofL
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #17 |
18. I see where this is going |
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You want our votes in the GE but the DNC fucked us over in the primaries.
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julialnyc
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
21. The state kind of fucked over the voters by moving the election ahead in schedule |
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and now that this race is going to the bitter ends, it is evident just how badly. The vote would have mattered if they didn't try and break the rules.
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rateyes
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
27. The State Democratic Party of Florida fucked you over... |
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not the DNC. The State Party voted for the rules that were in place and then intentionally violated those rules. Take your gripe to the people responsible---Nelson, Hastings, Wasserman-Schulz, and the whole Democratic delegation in the Florida House and Senate.
You were disenfranchised by your own. You should direct your anger toward them.
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Carolina
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
32. no, the DNC didn't fuck you |
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you state party officials did
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madfloridian
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
34. FL Dems introduced, sponsored the bill, and voted for it 115 to 1 |
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Then they tried to play the victim. They lied and blamed Dean. Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March. http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459
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joshcryer
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
43. The superdelegates can chose to seat them if they wanted. |
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Don't see why you'd want a million plus votes not to count.
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Carolina
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message |
samrock
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:21 PM
Response to Original message |
28. This not some GOT YA game... |
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You are talking about peoples votes!!.. The people who voted had no say when the elections where held... and IF Obama won most of these delegates the Obama people would be trying to get them in!! IF Obama gets the nomination AND the people of MI and FL have gotten no say so.. expect MANY of them to sit on there hands in November.. This is EPICALLY true in Florida.. They already saw the republicans cheat them.. NOW the democrats are going to do it as well??? Seems many people here are saying "IF I can't have it may way I will just take my ball and go home"!! HELLO President McCain...
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julialnyc
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
33. I'm sure the Obama people would want the votes too if it were them who won, but that doesn't change |
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I'm sure Obama supporters (and Obama) would want their vote too if they won, but that doesn't change the conundrum of the situation. It was not a fair playing field and the statse broke rules where they knew the consequence. There is no way you won't piss off many many people, but Florida and Michigan have their states to thank for it. It is disingenuous to point the finder at Obama saying he doesn't care about a particular state, when he has so much ground to cover and was told that it wouldn't count. Florida and Michigan have every right to be angry, but the candidates are not the ones to blame.
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samrock
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #33 |
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Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 01:39 PM by samrock
You can dance around the maypole arguing all ya want.. but it is the voters on these two states who will play the price.. and IF we ALL have to then pay the price of there being pissed off at having ther votes taken away by getting a President McCain ..... Sigh .. it will just be soo sad.. cause THEN our troops in Iraq ( and maybe Iran) will have to keep ON paying with there limbs and lives!!!
If sorry but I just can not get up the emotional energy to fight Obama va Clinton.. I want this STUPID battle to end.. They agree on 90+% on the issues.. I want one of them I DO NOT CARE WHO!!! As our next president.. and I pray to GOD this in fighting does not cost the election...
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madfloridian
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
35. FL Dems introduced, sponsored the bill, and voted for it 115 to 1 |
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Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March. http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459
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rateyes
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Sat Feb-09-08 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
62. I'll say this again. I'm not a supporter of either Obama or Clinton... |
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and, at this point, could give a rat's ass. My proposed solution doesn't favor either one. And, it's clear that if you thought it would favor Hillary, you would be in favor of it.
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cyclezealot
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:33 PM
Response to Original message |
36. Personally I am proud of Michigan Democrats. |
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Good for them. No one is crying. Fla Democrats are adamant, I read. The system is broke. I don't want to vote following New Hampshires' left overs. We deserve to vote for the candidate of our choice. Actually, it seems to be Dean who is crying. He wants Mich,/ Fla Dems to decide the nominees fate. Since we did not get to decide upon those we actually favored and NH eliminated them for us. Don't care if we vote or not.
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snappyturtle
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:39 PM
Response to Original message |
joshcryer
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:46 PM
Response to Original message |
45. This would be a possible outcome, but that would be decided at the DNC. |
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And I expect Hillary's superdelegates would vote to seat them simply out of desire not to disenfranchise millions of voters who had no control over what their party did.
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suston96
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:52 PM
Response to Original message |
47. Read my lips: count all the votes ! That is what happens in a democracy. Award the delegates. |
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That too also happens in a democracy.
I cannot believe that a democratic forum board has serious supporters for diluting the voting rights of fellow democrats.
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rateyes
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Sat Feb-09-08 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #47 |
63. If you can come up with a fair way for all the votes to actually |
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count, then fine. Seating what would be in place after the sham primaries that took place disenfranchises a lot of voters.
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yewberry
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Sat Feb-09-08 01:59 PM
Response to Original message |
48. I feel for the voters in MI and FL |
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but I don't think the delegates should be seated. The state parties knew what they were doing and they did it anyway, and the issue of what will happen in the GE is exactly what they want the rest of the country to be talking about. They're trying to blackmail Democrats nationwide and trying to place blame on the DNC and Dean.
Yes, reform the primary calendar, but no, don't seat FL and MI delegates.
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UALRBSofL
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Sat Feb-09-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #48 |
51. Right, don't seat the delegates |
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And don't count the votes in the GE either. Good idea.
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yewberry
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Sat Feb-09-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #51 |
56. There's that blackmail I mentioned. |
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"Meet our demands or you're screwed in the General."
The FL and MI parties (and you, it appears) are trying to force their demands on me and the rest of the nation. Shameful.
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seybor
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Sat Feb-09-08 03:26 PM
Response to Original message |
57. Choose: Rules or no - Super dels + no MI/FL |
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Is fair (even as a MI voter, I recognize this. MI/FL + exclusion dels is fair if we're looking at changing inappropriate and inconvenient rules. You can't have it both ways.
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robbedvoter
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Sat Feb-09-08 03:27 PM
Response to Original message |
58. Better yet: take away all delegates from the states Hillary won. And expell the Hillbots |
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Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 03:27 PM by robbedvoter
from DU. And send the women to the kitchen where they belong. Now, who brought the keg?
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rateyes
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Sat Feb-09-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #58 |
64. I detect a note of sarcasm in your disgusting post. nt |
Orangepeel
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Sat Feb-09-08 03:29 PM
Response to Original message |
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Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 03:32 PM by orangepeel68
never mind. I misread the original post.
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hill08
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Sat Feb-09-08 03:31 PM
Response to Original message |
60. this will be VERY irresponsible and politically miopic |
tandem5
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Sat Feb-09-08 04:06 PM
Response to Original message |
65. Please, Obama supporters, help me understand... |
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This is an age long fight between individual voters and the DNC. Why shouldn't larger states, that are more representative of the entire country, have a bigger say in who gets the nomination? This is as old Washington as it gets.
Now I understand Michigan and Florida broke the rules, but I can't help but think how perfectly this idea of fighting the establishment so that a more diverse group of voters can have a larger impact dovetails with Obama's message. Surely had Obama won these two states would we not hear this emphasis from the Obama campaign?
In fact we hear it now with respect to super delegates! - The outrage that party leaders and not the electorate could end up deciding this primary.
Do you not see the inherent contradiction: Dump the super delegation because they do not reflect the will of the people and discount the voters in Michigan and Florida because they went against the will of the establishment.
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nonconformist
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Sat Feb-09-08 04:08 PM
Response to Original message |
66. I'm from MI, but I don't live there now... but I have a lot of family and friends there. |
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A few in FL, too.
I will tell you this - Michigan Dems are VERY upset about this. They feel that they moved their primary up so that they would actually get a voice, considering Michigan is in a WORLD OF SHIT right now. They wanted someone to LISTEN to them, to address their concerns.
But it completely backfired, and it's not the voter's fault.
They of course want to be seated. They feel betrayed by those in the party that are saying they shouldn't count. They point out that "uncommitted" was voted by people who preferred Obama or Edwards, and point to the strong turnout at this "meaningless" primary as evidence that their voice was accurately recorded.
That's what I've been hearing.
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