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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:20 PM
Original message
Men, Hilllary, & the sexism no one will talk about....
Now, granted. There are a bunch of legitimate reasons not to vote for Hillary Clinton (the same is true for Barack Obama). However, as these have been hashed, rehashed, & hashed again throughout the progressive community, I want to address in this blog something that isn't getting much coverage.

Let's bring the sexism around Hillary Clinton out in the open. It is clear that it is happening. Men are largely going for Obama in something like a 2 to 1 ratio. If the white community was going for Clinton, two to one, we would be hearing the calls of racism and the backwardness of American culture. There would be cries of fury, and deep long blog posts about the plight of minorities in American society. The same prejudice is occurring with Hillary Clinton, however we don't hear much of a peep. I believe this is largely due to the word feminism being equated with the word bitch, & more importantly, women being fearful of asserting this truth. Women are between a rock & a hard place. If we advocate for our fellow women and acknowledge the fact that sexism lives, we are accused of wanting to have our cake & eat it too. A strong woman doesn't complain about the discrimination & glass ceilings above her head, otherwise she is accussed of being weak, whiney, and not tough enough to legitimately compete in a male dominated world.

Hillary is the personification of the problems every American woman has ever faced in this society. Every strong attribute she possesses is degraded to be a weakness. She is bitch, witch, power-hungry, emasculating, & cold - NOT strong, tenacious, capable, & equal. She is smart - she is accused of being calculating. She weathers storms and remains standing, she is entitled. She overcomes the heartbreak of an extra-marital affair in the view of the entire nation, she has no dignity.

Watching the race between Hillary & Obama for POTUS, it is clear the American people hold these dictomies in the collective thought. Obama offers no substantive advantage over Hillary. Close examination of his policies show he is a LITTLE to the right of Hillary. Yet, he garners the progressive vote not for policy, but for message. And, that is plain scary. If you listen to Hillary, she is mature in her speech, thoughtful about the realities facing this country, and logical about the limitations and possibilities the next President will face. One blogger put it - 'she is motherly without the warmth', as if we are electing a parent instead of a President. And, when this woman does show even a trace of emotion, she is back to being the manipulative bitch.

To me, the election of Barack Obama will not represent a sign of progress. It will show the immaturity of a nation that wants a feel good candidate instead of one of maturity. There is no substance behind Barack' message that transcends Hillary's experience of years of battling the entrenched male dominated politics of Washington. People may say that she holds no true experience, but that is a pure line of bull. She was in the trenches will Bill, the reason he was able to climb to a two term Presidency. If you don't like that dynamic, or you believe another Clinton term will not serve the American public, that is one thing. She tried to fix this health care crisis before it became a crisis.

She lived the principles of feminism when it became unpopular again for a woman to assert her strength. She is tough. She is strong. And, she has stared down the male establishment & emerged a contender.

And, many men (and some women) downright hate her for it.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. k & r
I have been thinking the same thing for some time now.,
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hillary is shamelessly pandering to women. Could that be why..
she's turning off men? Ya think?
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Shamelessly pandering to women?


She is doing something many of us thought we would never see in our lifetime...

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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
38. are men truly that immature? is this a fucking school yard or something?
what a pathetic mindset.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #38
98. YES (n/t)
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. it's as embarrasing as voting for the one you want to have a beer with...
fucking sad.
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #100
186. as I recall geo bush held that distinction - yikes
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #100
187. as I recall geo bush held that distinction - yikes
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
62. Hillary shamelessly panders; Obama reaches across all divisions
Got it.

--p!
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
102. How? Because she's pro-choice, pro-health care and pro-children? n/t
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arewenotdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #102
109. try pro-war
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 04:55 AM by arewenotdemo
Not that that matters to the average Clinton supporter, but it sure as hell does matter to most Obama supporters.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #109
121. ding, ding, ding
you've hit the nail squarely on the head! I can't support her because of the war, specifically her IWR vote, her ongoing support for the war until public opinion and her personal ambition were at odds. Even then, she recited the media line that the war had been managed wrong NOT THAT IT WAS WRONG FROM THE START.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #109
137. If it did matter, you would not be supporting Obama
I am so tired of this lie. Clinton is no more pro-war than Obama is.

He gets a free pass for his LACK OF DOING ANYTHING about the war WHEN HE HAD THE POWER TO.

He is weak and timid and plays it so safe he refuses to vote. He is all political and nothing else.
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #137
149. Obama is shamelessly pro-war.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #109
172. She's pandering to women by being pro-war? You're making zero sense. n/t
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
104. What if someone said that Obama was "shamelessly pandering"
to African-Americans. And that explains his high support among black people. Wouldn't you object to that characterization? I would. And it's just as wrong when you say that about HRC.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
198. No one would ever dare say Obama is "shamelessly pandering to Blacks".
Careful, your hatred of women is showing.

(And no, I don't support Hillary so fuck off before hand.)
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. More of this 'if you don't support hillary you're a sexist' garbage?
Yawn.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
42. you apparently did not bother to even read the OP n/t
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. I did.
And according to the OP, men are voting for Obama because they're sexist.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. you may have read it, but apparently did not comprehend it. n/t
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. In the poster's own words:
"Let's bring the sexism around Hillary Clinton out in the open. It is clear that it is happening. Men are largely going for Obama in something like a 2 to 1 ratio. If the white community was going for Clinton, two to one, we would be hearing the calls of racism and the backwardness of American culture. There would be cries of fury, and deep long blog posts about the plight of minorities in American society. The same prejudice is occurring with Hillary Clinton, however we don't hear much of a peep. I believe this is largely due to the word feminism being equated with the word bitch, & more importantly, women being fearful of asserting this truth. Women are between a rock & a hard place. If we advocate for our fellow women and acknowledge the fact that sexism lives, we are accused of wanting to have our cake & eat it too. A strong woman doesn't complain about the discrimination & glass ceilings above her head, otherwise she is accussed of being weak, whiney, and not tough enough to legitimately compete in a male dominated world"

Men are going to Obama in a 2 to 1 ratio. They are sexist.

That is literally what she is saying.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #43
122. the Hbots
don't /can't/won't accept that opposition to Hillary is just opposition to that particular woman, NOT misogyny or sexism.

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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
103. From the FIRST LINE of the OP, it's clear that's not the case.
The writer specifically acknowledges that people can have valid reasons for opposing HRC.
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #103
111. That first line
was as genuine as fine print disclaimers on defective products...

The gist of her post was *were hillary not a woman more people would be going for her than are going for obama* ergo if you support obama chances are your sexist..
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #111
171. Sorry, but I don't trust your mind reading abilities.
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 03:51 PM by pnwmom
I'm sure she meant exactly what she said, because I have felt the same thing.

Of course people have legitimate reasons for opposing HRC, but a significant minority attack her for reasons that are either consciously or unconsciously sexist.

If either of your little angels is a girl, you should open your eyes a little wider.
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #171
182. But you do trust the mind reading abilities of the author
who knows why people en mass are not flocking to Hillary..
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #103
184. But then she goes right on to say
that men are going to obama by a 2 to 1 ratio, as if to imply that they are voting for him out of sexism.
putting the qualifying first line on the rest of the OP doesn't cover up the smell of garbage coming from the rest of it.
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:23 PM
Original message
k&r, just for the guts you had to post the truth! Good Job!
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zabet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Excellent post!
:applause:
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oldtime dfl_er Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. I suppose we'll find out
whether this country is more sexist or more racist. It is a fact of life that there are a lot of Americans who won't vote for Hillary because she's female, and a lot who won't vote for Obama because he's black. The only way we could mitigate that factor is if McCain chooses Condi as his running mate.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. Yes that's certainly true
People might be telling pollsters they are voting for Hillary or Obama but when they get in the privacy of the voting booth, their true prejudices will come out and will have to see which carries the day.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
191. Please don't even think it or even type it
Edited on Mon Feb-11-08 11:03 PM by truedelphi
McCain and Condi

NO-O-O-O!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(echoing scream as when Luke Skywalker finds out Darth is his father!)
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Proud2BAmurkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
6. Men vote their wallet.
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Then they should be R's. They are the $$$$ party.
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Proud2BAmurkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. usually that happens but unlikely this time. McCain will win slightly more male voters
Clinton will win a large margin of females
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toadzilla Donating Member (814 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
54. well gee, if theyre the $$$$ party, then why are we all going broke?
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #54
192. It does make a person wonder, doesn't it.
it is a totally different Republican party than the one my parents belonged to.

It took my father a long time but at the age of 88 he voted for Gore.

Maybe God is telling all those rich people that they are entitled to take our money for their companies like Halliburton.

As it seems to be a totally different God out there these days too.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. Worse yet. She reminds them of mother. Boys these days resent
discipline and females who demand respect. It's much easier to pull out a chair than listen to someone who can process a situation more easily and recommend strategic actions. Instead of following our reasoning, it's much easier to respond w/silver back behavior.

I don't take it anymore @ work. I'm old enough w/serious resposibilities. HRC has proved she can play w/the boys - now she has to lead.
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
118. You know...
...I just love it when progressives pull out that fat paint brush. It keeps me humble to know that you don't have to register Republican to hear these kind of generalizations.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
124. it took a "boy" for
HRC to get where she is today. She rode Bill's coattails to positions of power. She hitched her wagon to HIS star power in the 1970s, moving to Arkansas (before they were married) to the shock and dismay of her friends who thought she was throwing away her future. No, she was calculating then and knew HE was going places. His Momma even had her pegged! Part of her much vaunted experience is as First LADY (Arkansas and US, a total of 20 years in that role). And had she not been First Lady, her bid for NY Senate seat (which has launched this POTUS bid) would have been laughable.

She's not the poster child for feminism or for women who have ever had to work THEIR own way up the male chain of power and command, on their own name and merits.


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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
8. K & R
It's true, I posted about it a few days ago and was shouted down as a crazy bitch, but you have made a thoughtful post. Thank you!
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
50. I was right there with ya......
I pissed off quite a few people, but who cares? :toast:

Sexism isn't very well disguised in the very red area where I live.

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xmas74 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #50
194. What red area do you live in?
I'm in MO and I'm a Hillary supporter.

Just wondered if you were hearing the crap I've been hearing.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:25 PM
Original message
dupe
Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 01:26 PM by BleedingHeartPatriot
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. K & R. I have been surprised at the level of sexism.
This conversation has been a long time coming.

:kick:
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Seen the light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
12. Women voting for Clinton overwhelmingly: YAY! Men voting for Obama: SEXIST!
Gee, I wonder why it's not a big issue that large majorities of women are voting for Senator Clinton. By your warped logic, aren't they somehow being sexist as well?
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. that's not what was said -- but spin away
the reading comprehension skills are stunning amongst those who want to turn a legitimate argument into a bashing session.

Sure way to sway voters :eyes:
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Seen the light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. She comes to the conclusion that men are hating Clinton for being strong
And the evidence she has for that conclusion is that men are voting for Obama more than they are for Clinton.

So it's to just be assumed that women will fall in line with Clinton because she's a fellow woman, but men are somehow being sexist for choosing to vote for a fellow man?

That's what I'm not understanding from the OP.

I'm not denying that there hasn't been some sexism by some when it comes to Senator Clinton and I would also agree that it hasn't been talked about that much. I would agree with that. I was merely disagreeing with how the TC came about at arriving at that conclusion.
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
52. personnally I would say
men voting for Obama = stupid and sexist. :-)
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #52
125. women voting for HRC because
she's a woman is stupid and sexist
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
74. you might be able to say that when we've had 43 female/non-white presidents. nt
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #74
119. Seems quite able to say it now... n/t
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SoxFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
157. Silence! Prepare to be assimilated!
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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
177. it seems that ANYONE voting against HRC is sexist.... I'm a white woman (50) - GOBAMA!!!
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
13. This is a broad brush flamer,
I know my reasons for not preferring her have nothing to do with her sex! I'm a female, in a position of a tiny bit of power and I say "you go" to those with the integrity and honesty to have it, male or female.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
127. exactly, totally agree
HRC rode Bill's coattails to positions of power. She hitched her wagon to HIS star power in the 1970s, moving to Arkansas (before they were married) to the shock and dismay of her friends who thought she was throwing away her future. No, she was calculating and knew HE was going places. His Momma even had her pegged! Part of her much vaunted experience is as First LADY (Arkansas and US, a total of 20 years in that role). And had she not been First Lady, her bid for NY Senate seat (which has launched this POTUS bid) would have been laughable.

She's not the poster child for feminism or for women who have ever had to work their own way up the male chain of power and command, on their own name and merits.

The OP and others here refuse to see that opposition to HRC is not misogyny or sexism. Some of us (many of us) simply OPPOSE HRC because she'd the wrong person.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #127
188. What Offices Would Be Appropriate for a Spouse to Run For While Married to a Governor & President?
Hmm?
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
14. Hillary is the personification of the problems every American woman has ever faced in this society.
not true.

try being a single mom under Bills welfare reform.
hillary has never had to suffer those challenges.

she does not represent women, she represents the status quo corporate rule.
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
58. I believe that welfare reform was necessary.
I have a young friend, in her twenties, that is going on her third pregnancy, all with different fathers, and she could not get along without aid. She gets wick when she's preg. she gets food stamps and welfare, and she just keeps getting pregnant. This is because she does not believe in birth control. Get it, we all are paying for her to keep having babies with no restrictions. I don't believe this is right and I resent it. I am interested in how this reform has affected people, though. What is the story of your single mom. In other words, what is different now that is effecting your single mom adversely.
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #58
113. So in case case it takes a village
to run welfare queens out of town?
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #58
189. Am I seriously seeing "welfare queen" BS on DU?
I was worried this day would come...
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #14
112. Excellenmt post!
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bagrman Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
159. WOW you get it. Some of us "small head thinkers" have done our home work. The Clintons fans
are too ready to repeat history. Some of us "small head thinkers" actually remember and or have read enough that we don't want The Clintons back in the White House.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. Sigh. I don't hate Hillary for her strength. I do not see her as a strong woman.
Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 01:30 PM by sparosnare
And - I know some will come after me for this - I do not think she is a good example for my daughters. She stayed married to a man who had numerous affairs through their marriage and lied repeatedly to protect him so he could advance politically. If Hillary had been a strong woman she would have dumped him and forged ahead on her own, as I chose to do. I am not judging her on her choices, I just do not see her as a beacon of feminism.

I won't argue there's sexism out there directed at Hillary. I won't support her because of it though; I won't make her candidacy about fighting sexism.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
37. maybe their marriage isn't for you to judge? maybe she has different ideas...
hilarious that you actually belive you aren;t standing in judgement.
good luck with that... more men cheat than don't. it's a fact of life, and you choose to punish the wife for it. typical sexist bullshit.
get over yourself.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
49. I'm entitled to my opinion without a personal attack from you.
I don't admire Hillary. I think she has compromised her integrity for political gains. I don't think any woman should put up with a man who repeatedly cheats on her, whether it's a "fact of life" or not.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. just disabusing you of the notion that "you weren't judging" her ...as you most certainly
Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 02:13 PM by bettyellen
were. who knows why she put up with his cheating? not you or i.
who gives a fuck? people who don;t have a clue. people who should mind their own business.
Did it occur to you taht you are judging her for (supposedly- in YOUR overheated imagination) putting work before her personal life. way to put the little woman in her place! LOL. god forbid we have a president that actually cares deeply about their work, instead of making a nice home life.

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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #49
179. You don't know why she chose to stay married to Bill. Maybe she did it for Chelsea? Maybe she loves
him? Who are you to judge someone else's marriage? It's none of your business.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
129. and she stayed with him because
he was her ticket to power. She hitched her wagon to HIS star power in the 1970s, moving to Arkansas (before they were married) to the shock and dismay of her friends who thought she was throwing away her future. She was calculating and knew HE was going places. His Momma even had her pegged! Part of her much vaunted experience is as First LADY (Arkansas and US, a total of 20 years in that role). And had she not been First Lady, her bid for NY Senate seat (which has launched this POTUS bid) would have been laughable.

You're right, she's not the poster child for feminism or for women who have ever had to work their own way up the male chain of power and command, on their own name and merits.

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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #129
147. When she moved to AK with Bill...He wasn't star power. He just
graduated from law school! Everyone thought she was crazy! Obviously they didn't think he had star power, so your premise is false and you need to latch on to another believable reason to have any weight on this subject. Your own quote disagreed with you.

"She hitched her wagon to HIS star power in the 1970s, moving to Arkansas (before they were married) to the shock and dismay of her friends who thought she was throwing away her future."
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #129
151. And you know this how?
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drmeow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #129
165. When Bill was in the White House
I was studying attachment in romantic relationships. I'm not going to go into a detailed description of attachment theory and romantic relationships but based on what we know scientifically about romantic relationships and based on some interesting spontaneous moments observed between Bill and Hillary - she stayed with him because their relationship has classic elements of a good relationship from the perspective of attachment theory.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #129
180. They moved to Arkansas so Bill could become a country lawyer. They had NOTHING when they moved there
You don't know why she stayed married to him and it's none of your fucking business. It's THEIR marriage. Mind your own house and marriage.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #129
193. Plus she has put across an increasingly garbled message:
I am experienced - I get things done!

Then I am a victim of the press and a victim of misogyny.

Which is it, Senator Hillary?

And pray tell what have you gotten done?

Every time the Repugs took a bite out of you, you backed down.

They were a bit more effective than you at the National Health Care Plan, but when they bit, you backed down.

You did help Bill get a lot of Repug policies passed though - Telecommunications Act of 1996, NAFTA, Bank reform bills etc.
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
150. I guess you'd hate my mother, too, then, for staying with my Dad when he strayed.
barf
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
174. Hmmmmm. . . .
"If Hillary had been a strong woman she would have dumped him and forged ahead on her own,"

Let's try that in a slightly different key--

If Jackie had been a strong woman, she would have dumped JFK and forged ahead on her own.

If Ethel had been a strong woman, she would have dumped RFK and forged ahead on her own.

If Rose had been a strong woman, she would have dumped old Joe and forged ahead on her own.

If Eleanor had been a strong woman, she would have dumped FDR and forged ahead on her own.

I take it you agree with all of the above.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #15
200. Oh, you're one of those Dr. Phil types all up in everyone's personal business.
Like you know why she stayed with Bill Clinton. :eyes:

With voting logic, no wonder why we are where we are.
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CaptJasHook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
16. I really don't understand why so many Progressives
are hell bent on making this contest into a referendum on sexism and/or racism.

We are supposed to be working beyond those issues and yet, people who are in the midst of their own personal struggles continue to project their own thoughts on to the rest of us.

Try this on for size:

The majority of people on DU are Progressive Liberals!!! Got it? That means we are in your corner. And we are sick of generalized statements about "men" "women" "blacks" "whites" "Obama Supporters" "Clinton Supporters" etc., etc.


Please, please do your own personal work with your therapist and stop calling us sexist and racist.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
173. Jeebus. Another newbie chump who just wants to talk ISSUES!
Hang in there kid. There's quite a few of us who do care about actual issues.
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CaptJasHook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #173
175. Thank for calling me Kid
I'm anything but... However, it feels good to be condescended to every once and a while.... really.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #175
176. Hey, anybody with fewer than 1000 posts is a "kid"
Relatively speaking, anyway. Not intended as a synonym for "anklebiter."
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. Sexism is still very much alive in this country
While Hillary is not the ideal candidate for me, I still cringe at the coverage she gets in the media and from the right-wing blogosphere. Which is not to say that racism is also not alive and well, it is just that people feel it is okay to make sexist comments while it is not okay to make racist comments. That is my experience anyway.

I have never been able to figure out why republicans hate Hillary so. She is by no means a liberal, except in their minds. She has really done nothing to deserve their hatred, except (perhaps) for being married to Bill, whom the also hate to the point of unreason.

But as for why men are not voting for Hillary I really cannot say. I think a lot of men still are very sexist. I encounter it every damn day of my life, from men (and some women) who would otherwise be considered enlightened. There is something about liberated women that frightens the living daylights out of a lot of men. I live in Texas where sexism is perhaps more prevalent, certainly more so than any other place I have lived so I may not be the best judge.
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drmeow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
169. When Bill Clinton won his first term
a banner was hung from the building that housed the Sociology department at my campus which read "Goodbye First Lady, Hello First Woman"

I think that banner touched on why Bill and Hillary were and still are hated by the right (I'm not going to tackle why she is hated by the left partly because it is harder for me to understand - I am not a big fan of Hillary or Bill for that matter and I don't think they are progressive or liberal but I reserve my hatred for people who are against EVERYTHING I believe in rather than some of what I believe in - but I also haven't been directly hurt by any of their policies even though I see the damage they have done).

The president's wife has frequently been a strong driving force behind the scenes. We almost always got not just the president but a team - president and his wife. But in the past it had never been a openly public partnership. For example, Nancy Reagan had an incredible level of influence but it was all behind the scenes. With Bill and Hillary it was the first time we had a public partnership. And that violated the traditional roles in the White House and slammed home to a lot of people who hated the changes in women's roles that the world really had changed. Here was a woman who had kept her maiden name, had a successful career as a lawyer (making more money than her husband), and was actually named to an official position in the administration. For everyone (male and female) who bought into traditional roles for men and women, this was a huge threat to them. It was bad enough that women's roles were changing but as long as the power elite maintained the illusion that women were not gaining power and were not changing their roles, people who preferred traditional roles felt that their ideology was validated. The success of the Clintons (and Bill's popularity) threatened to invalidated their choices and ideology more than any other change since the 60's. More women in the work force could be justified by economic circumstances. A rich woman doing charity work (which, as the name states, can be as much work as any other job) could be dismissed as not being "real" work (and not taking work away from men). A president's wife taking on a pet project (usually a safe one that everyone can support) was just a good woman using her position of influence to do good in the world. But a successful married FEMINIST taking an active role in government (and supporting issues relating to women's rights) was a traditionalist's worst nightmare. It violated everything from feminists are just lesbians or unattractive women who can't get a man to a woman's primary role is to take care of her husband and kids.

The Clintons made a mistake putting her in charge of health care reform. They should have put her in charge of something that was not perceived as socialist. She became not just a feminist who didn't know her place but a communist who was hell bent on destroying America.

As I said, I'm not a big Hillary fan. I'm not a fan of Barack, either. I'm not convinced that either of them can save this country from the hole we are in (we need another FDR and we need some of the controls of corporations, protections of the people, and non-corporate control of the media codified in the Constitution). On those on-line quizzes you find that are designed to match you to your preferred candidate Kucinich is number 1 on every single one followed most consistently by Gravel. After that Clinton, Obama, and Edwards all appear within the top 5 at least once so, as I indicated above, at least they agree with me on some issues.
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thesubstanceofdreams Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. Men are not going to Obama 2 to 1

When there is such a blatant exaggeration at the beginning of the post, it makes it all suspect.

So far, the popular vote has been a virtual tie. According to exit polls, Obama is indeed leading among men, but he's not even close to doubling Hillary among men.

I'm sure that some of the men's vote for Obama is sexist, either consciously or unconsciously. But I'm also sure that's a small minority. As I'm sure Hillary is getting some votes by virtue of being white, but I'm also sure it's just a small minority and would never suggest that she's tied with Obama because voters are racist.

Some Hillary supporters dismiss ANY critic of their candidate as sexism, and this OP seems to fall into that category.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
19. esxcellent article in nyt several weeks ago on this subject:
Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 01:30 PM by niyad
CONTESTED; Rights vs. Rights: An Improbable Collision Course



By MARK LEIBOVICH
Published: January 13, 2008

BARRING some seismic scandal, unforeseen late entry (''Al Who?''), or unlikely surge by John Edwards, it is wholly inevitable that the race for the Democratic nomination will end next August in an epochal first.

Either Senator Barack Obama will be the first African-American or Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton will be the first woman to win the presidential nomination of a major American political party. One of them will take the stage at Denver's Pepsi Center, specked with confetti and soaked in history as a culminating figure of one of the great ideological movements of the last century -- civil rights or women's rights.

To this point, both Mr. Obama and (to a lesser degree) Mrs. Clinton have been diligent in trying not to identify too closely with either movement. Mr. Obama rarely mentions his race explicitly, leaving the heavy rhetoric of his groundbreaking potential to his wife, Michelle (who in a speech in November spoke of lifting ''that veil of impossibility that keeps us down and keeps our children down''). Mrs. Clinton has made more direct appeals to mothers and daughters and ''making history,'' but has for the most part predicated her candidacy on the masculine virtues of toughness, resolve and her extensive experience in the (male-dominated) realm of politics and government.

Still, whether the candidate wants the mantle or not, whoever wins the nomination will be bestowed (or bludgeoned) with the hopes and legacy of a movement. The victory will be a benchmark moment for the American promise of equality, and the Democrats will add to their partisan quiver a feel-great story that could buoy them in the fall. ''Americans are looking for a way to break barriers,'' Karl Rove said last week in an interview with National Public Radio (not that Mr. Rove, President Bush's chief political maharishi, is at risk of helping either Mr. Obama or Mrs. Clinton do this). ''They would love to elect a woman president; they would love to elect an African-American president.''
. . . .

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B07E5DA153FF930A25752C0A96E9C8B63&scp=1&sq=rights+vs+rights&st=nyt
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
21. GREAT OP! This thread sadly will be full of sexist posts though.
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thesubstanceofdreams Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. Anyone who disagrees = sexist

Typical.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
85. Yeah. That is what the post said. Did you read the first part

Or, did you just go temporarily blind?
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #85
130. the first part was like a snide aside
while the main part was a blind rant.

I'm female and I can't stand HRC. She's phony. She's a corporate tool and she's not the poster child for feminism or for women who have ever had to work their own way up the male chain of power and command, on their own name and merits.

She rode Bill's coattails to positions of power. She hitched her wagon to HIS star power in the 1970s, moving to Arkansas (before thay were married) to the shock and dismay of her friends who thought she was throwing away her future.

She was calculating then and now. She knew HE was going places. His Momma even had her pegged! Part of her much vaunted experience is as First LADY (Arkansas and US, 12 years in those roles). And had she not been First Lady, her bid for NY Senate seat (which has launched this POTUS bid) would have been laughable.


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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #130
140. Road Bill's coat-tails? He never would have been elected without her

You should do a little reading on the history of the Clintons....

She was the backbone of it.

Hillary is not perfect. She is indeed way too corporately influenced. She is my last choice before Obama.

I find it fascinating that people have no problem with an inexperienced younger man who offers no substantive advantage over Hillary, yet blast Hillary for the very negatives Barack has as well. That was the point of this post. Obama offers no comprehensive health care program, he is tied to many of the same lobbyists as Hillary, & reading his core foreign policy opinions - he leans towards the hawkish side. He is slightly to the RIGHT of Clinton. Yet, his supporters lift him up as some kind of progressive leader of change. And, that is simply not the reality of what his policies look like on paper. And, I think that is a very legitimate cause for concern. The fact that the nation rallies around the message rather then policies is EXACTLY what happened with Bush. And, it is dangerous.

Again, Hillary is not perfect. But, she has been tested in the national eye for years, she is smart, she is tough, & she knows the system.

I respect the right of anyone to disagree. However, it seems that people here aren't being very honest or consistent with their scrutiny between the two candidates.

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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #140
142. I have done reading because I was an ardent
supporter of his from 1991 when I first heard him speak! And I loathed what the media and vast right wing conspiracy did to try to destroy him professionally and personally. But I stick by my post:

He had the smarts and charisma without HER. The opposite is not true.

And yes, she did hitch her wagon to HIS star power. She had opportunities after serving as a junior attorney in the House during the Nixon impeachment hearings (despite the fact that she didn't pass the DC Bar) but chose to follow Bill to Arkansas, much to the shock and dismay of friends who thought she was nuts, throwing away her future! It's a fact that's part of their bios. She knew IT and was going places...

Truth hurts.
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #130
181. Where did you copy your little mantra from? A book
on Hillary hating? You've said the same thing here about 10 times. Did you know Bill Clinton's mother? Do you have personal inside family information?
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CaptJasHook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
39. Yep All male progressives are sexist, racist bastards trying to
keep women and minorities down. That is part of the Progressive Liberal credo:

Equal rights and justice for everyone except women or any other disenfranchised American.

Oh, crap, I forgot to kick my dog this morning.

:banghead:
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
22. You make some valid points
I do think hatred of Clinton is mixed in as well but it is a problem.
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
24. Bill Maher didn't help last night......
He said: a black candidate and a vagina candidate - who woulda thought it possible?

I have always said, that women have been subject to more abuse and discrimination than blacks.

Oh, and Bill Maher, a history major in college: blacks have been waiting a long time for this (Obama candidacy). Uh, Bill Maher? Which came first: the Fifteenth amendment (black voting) or the Nineteenth Amendment (women voting?
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Yeah, uhm, you know, cause the 60's never happened or anything.
Let's not make this into a pissing contest over 'who was more oppressed.'
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Bill Maher's contempt for women is well documented
He goes for every opportunity to degrade and marginalize women -- the vagina comment is totally his mindset.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
45. so I should support Clinton because Maher's an asshole? nt
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. That's just so fucking stupid......
really, did anyone say that? NO

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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #53
60. well, then what is really being said by the OP.
I must admit I don't get a clear message out of it at all. Please explain.
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #60
66. It would be unfair for me to state what the OP
meant beyond what her words say. What I personally feel is that there is a different standard that the candidates are judged by.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
158. Colfax Massacre -- Louisiana, 1873: 280 black men massacred for attempting to vote.
I have always said, that women have been subject to more abuse and discrimination than blacks.


Gee, I must have missed the great suffragette massacres.

:eyes:


Oh, and Bill Maher, a history major in college: blacks have been waiting a long time for this (Obama candidacy). Uh, Bill Maher? Which came first: the Fifteenth amendment (black voting) or the Nineteenth Amendment (women voting?



Who actually got the safe, guaranteed exercise of their rights first -- black men or white women?


Clearly, white women. Blacks waited until the 1960s for comparable safe exercise of their rights.


Oh, and one point: nobody "gave" black men anything. They won their right to vote on the battlefield after a quarter-million of them volunteered for the Union Army during the Civil War. It was that display of bravery and loyalty that convinced the government that they should have the same franchise as their white brothers in arms.

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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
199. If you are going to criticize Maher at least get the joke right.
He didn't say black and vagina he said "It's African-American against Vaginal-American". You really kill the joke the way you present it.

Watch it here, since you obviously didn't see it the first time. Go right to 1:40.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsEXPU6HXvA
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
25. One of the best posts EVER. Thank you!
:thumbsup:
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
27. So, sexist if they do, racist if they don't
What I don't understand is how people think women will magically benefit from a female president. She will be running the same system that is currently screwing us all. Do you think she's going to be more gentle or something?

I don't like her policies or her personality, but I've voted for personalities (Phil Angelides, Dianne Feinstein) that I don't like before. Obama has some great ideas about helping poor people in this country, and Hillary has no specific antipoverty policies except some pie-in-the-sky philosophy about making everyone middle-class. I don't put much stock in campaign policy platforms--the only one I ever saw enacted was Bush's war on two fronts--but Obama's seem better to me, plain and simple. Gender is irrelevant.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
28. what are your thoughts on Bills' sexism towards women?
how do you feel about him cheating on his wife and letting Monica take the guff she did in the media (whore, slut, succubus, manipulator) while he can just smile and blush a bit - sending signals of 'well, that's the way it is - feet of clay - red blooded male, ya know how it is, right guys?"
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
55. Bill's not running.....
get the fuck over it.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Hillary's not a representative of women, but of corporations
and The Ministry of Keeping Things the Same.

and it will take a long time to 'get the fuck over that' if she gets in.
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Can't make up your mind which pile of bullshit to sling? n/t
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. that's what I respect about Hillary supporters.
they usually straight-talk about the issues and explain clearly how big a fool I am to be taken in by all the lies against the Clintons - backed up by facts and recorded history, not curses or dismissives. After all, they have nothing to hide or protect, their candidate lives in sun, so cannot embarrass their judgements.


need i use that icon?
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
31. You had me until you started bashing Obama and his voters
It is not necessary to tear him or his supporters down to make the point about the sexism directed against Hillary Clinton.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. that's because the underlying message of the whole OP is...
Obama supporters = sexist because they won't support clinton.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
35. LOL! To bad there isn't a LAME rating button for posts like these
Total NONSENSE! Isn't even worth the storage on the webserver. If we were to believe this rubbish, we would have to ASSume that every woman that votes for Hillary is a man hating sexist. Too bad the HillaryHacks can't come up with any GOOD reasons for vote for their candidate. It's all about Rovian style attack plays.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #35
47. nice of you to post and kick a thread you think is lame!
:rofl:
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #47
93. I am having flashbacks of dealing with right wing a-holes
When I see a post like this, it reminds me of the right wingnuts that I have dealt with on neutral political boards. Totally devoid of intellect, honor or morals.
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #35
63. I believe there is both sexism and racism in both campaigns.
Racists can vote Hillary and hide their racism, and vice versa. I also believe we have a butload of women who are supporting obama because they do not want Hillary to win. You have heard some of their reasons on this thread. They don't like welfare reform, they think Obama has the best policies, though the experts say there's not a dime's worth of difference in their policies, and the weirdest is the meme, "she should not have stayed with Bill". My sister also says that, though she is a republican and trying to find a reason to hate Hillary, and that was the only thing she could come up with. Hillary has stated on more than one occasion that she stayed with Bill because she feels only death should separate them. They've been married a long time and are best friends. I understand completely why she said this. My husband is my best friend too. I would be very angry for a long time if he cheated, and btw, he has, but I did and would choose to work it out, because the alternative would be the breakup of our family and our friendship. Best buddies, and all that. These decisions have to be left up to the couple and no one should interfere or judge them for a personal decision that does not effect the country at all.

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magatte Donating Member (323 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
36. Could it be that Obama is the superior candidate, and a number of women vote for Clinton
just based on HER gender. I will portent that identity politics is much more of a driver for women voting for Hillary than for men voting for Obama...

You argument about sexism cuts both ways. Unless you feel that only men are able to discriminate based on gender.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
40. this is such crap
HRC supporters love to paint with a broad (no pun intended) brush that equates Hillary with all women. Ergo hating Hillary is hating women.

HRC supporters have blinders on. Many people who are opposed to Hillary are just that:
OPPOSED TO HILLARY -- TO THAT PARTICULAR WOMAN! Period.

And "she lived the principles of feminism." Spare me, she rode Bill's coattails to positions of power. She hitched her wagon to HIS star power in the 1970s, moving to Arkansas (and Bill & Hill were not married then) to the shock and dismay of her friends who thought she was throwing away her future. No she was calculating and knew HE was going places. His Momma even had her pegged! Part of her much vaunted experience is as First LADY (Arkansas and US, a total of 20 years in that role). And had she not been First Lady, her bid for NY Senate seat (which has launched this POTUS bid) would have been laughable.

She's not the poster child for feminism or for women who have ever had to work their own way up the male chain of power and command, on their own name and merits.

And, BTW, some men hate her because they hate HIM and view this as HIS THIRD TERM.
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #40
78. Bullshit
Did you know Bill's momma? Understand, please, that my mother-in-law didn't like me for the first ten years of our marriage. You cannot accept the judgment of the mother-in-law for the woman who married her beloved son. No one's quite good enough. I know.

I'm sure you are not the judge of who's a poster child for feminism. Hillary was a successful lawer, first lady and mother. Seems to me that's pretty powerful. You just hate her. Why don't you state your real reason?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #78
131. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
41. I'm not sure the case can be made that easily.
Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 01:42 PM by Jim__
By that easily, I mean: Let's bring the sexism around Hillary Clinton out in the open. It is clear that it is happening. Men are largely going for Obama in something like a 2 to 1 ratio. If the white community was going for Clinton, two to one, we would be hearing the calls of racism and the backwardness of American culture.

My recollection is that African-Americans went for Obama 5 to 1 on super Tuesday. Is it clear that the African-American community is racist? If mere proportionality is sufficient reason, then the case is made. If it's not sufficient, then the sexist case has not been made.

I agree that the media is unfair, and that it is treating Hillary unfairly. We don't know the real reason for that; but my guess is that it has as much to do with the media's unfair treatment of anything Clinton as it does with the sexism.

If sexism is so clearly the answer, can you account for the fact that Hillary survived the early primaries that eliminated something like 7 men from the race? I'm not sure the early primaries showed any sexist trend.
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
46. I'm glad you said it. I have believed all along that it is sexism
that is propelling Obama's campaign. Someone earlier in the contest said we would have a black male president before we have a female of any gender. Disgraceful, but I have been it time and time again. Women are their own worst enemies. If just the majority of women were supporting Hillary, Obama would not have gained so much in popularity. I also believe that republicans are crossing over in states where they can, and infiltrating caucuses. The dem party is being played.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
87. I said that (among other people)...



People won't even ACKNOWLEDGE it is a factor. And, it is really interesting to see that a post that begins with a caveat of understanding all the LEGITIMATE reasons for not wanting Hillary is dismissed by the line 'Oh, so you are sexist if you don't support Hillary'...

We can at least talk about racism. Sexism is a taboo. I addressed it in my original post.



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xmas74 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #46
196. My father has always said that we'd
have an African-American male as president before a woman. A few months back he said that he was wrong-maybe we'd have a woman first and he wouldn't mind having Hillary be the one.

Now he's back to what he thought years ago. His opinion hasn't changed about the candidates. It's changed back to what it once was about human nature.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
56. "And, many men (and some women) downright hate her for it. " - the nut of the problem here.
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
57. And wait for it....it's coming.....
Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 02:05 PM by BlackVelvet04
the women who post how they just can't vote for Hillary because she's not perfect enough. Perfection not required in a male candidate, only a female candidate.

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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #57
132. no one is looking for perfection
but less triangulation and equivocation, AND less war would be so refreshing. I guess you like Pelosi after all she's a woman... AND a collossal failure and disappointment.

HRC supporters just do not get the fact that there are many progressives (female and male alike) who oppose HRC because she failed the leadership and judgment test on October 11, 2002.

Past is prologue; and she has gone along to get along and, more importantly, get ahead. Sexism is just a convenient excuse for those who can't handle the truth..
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Unbowed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
64. To me, Obama is the better candidate based on his record and his ideas.
But I agree, there is sexism in play against Clinton. I've heard some of my friends make sexist remarks against her. I've also heard people make racist remarks against Obama.

Personally, I'd vote for a candidate of any gender, race or mixture of races as long as that candidate represented what I believe to be the better positions, the better ethics and the better direction for the country and the world, but I would not vote for a candidate simply because of his or her gender or ethnicity. Not that I condemn the practice. People have a right to SUPPORT the candidate they feel will best represent them.

What I do condemn, is voting AGAINST someone because of their race or gender. You would think we have come beyond this, but the very existence of the Republican Party with the outdated positions they hold as valid, is a clear demonstration that we, as a people, still have a long way to go. There are prejudices and hatreds in every culture. Rising above them means that we must view people as equals. To me, that means looking beyond gender or race and viewing people as what they are essentially: human like all of us.

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cooolandrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
65. Yes there is seixm in America yes there is racism. It's not a reason to vote a flawed candidate.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
67. Another GDP thread suggests it was Hillary, parroted by Coulter, as being "our girl".
HILLARY IS SEXIST TOO.

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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #67
80. That is not sexist. You don't say it's sexist when "our guy" is used.
I've heard this before. What's she supposed to say, "I'm your thang". Really, preposterous.
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cooolandrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
68. People are wrapping all their emotion in Hillary and not seeing her poor judgement or porr financial
... skill not what the nation needs right now. It needs to win this election and repair the nation quick.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
69. What a bunch of crap
I'm against her because she supported the invasion and occupation of Iraq. I'm against her because she spends time on stupid non-issues like violent video games, right after supporting an illegal war.

And no, I do not feel sorry for one of the most powerful women on the Earth, who's already spent eight years in the whitehouse being the closest adviser to the president, being forced to fight for the nomination she thought she could just walk away with.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #69
133. ditto
see my similar post upthread.:hi:

Some people here just don't get it and instead use sexism and misogyny as convenient excuses.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:48 PM
Original message
Or, people simply don't trust her
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
70. Or, people simply don't trust her
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #70
92. Well put - and succinct. The mirror opposite of what it was posted in reply to.
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
72. word. nt
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jakem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
73. the real question is-

will anyone stop talking about it?!
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
75. Had you left out the anti-Barack rant, this would have been a great post...but
Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 03:05 PM by sfam
Do you actually believe that electing an African American - even if he IS a man - will not represent a sign of progress??? So this is just the same as electing a white man?

OK, you don't think Barack is qualified, but surely you must admit many of those - probably most in fact, if not all - DO think he's qualified. Is your negative personal opinion of his skills and ability really that critical when comparing it to our overall country's progress towards a more racially accepting society? Surely you can't really believe this.

EDIT: And yeah...the OP does sort of leave the thought that the vast majority of those men not supporting her are...well, you know. Had you dropped the Barack rant and just left it as "its interesting that there is a 2-1 split here...I wonder why" - that "some" of them are voting for Barack for the reasons you state is most certainly accurate. But by stating that Barack is objectively completely unqualified when compared to Hillary, you leave a very different impression.
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
76. The OP starts out OK, then goes kind of nuts towards the end.
Case in point:
"To me, the election of Barack Obama will not represent a sign of progress."

What?? After 8 years of Bush-Cheney?? :o

Sheesh! :eyes:
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awaysidetraveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
77. So Obama supporters are more sexist than they are racist? That doesn't follow.
Try it the other way around: Are Hillary supporters more racist than they are sexist?

Try again. When I look at the issues, I prefer Obama.
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
79. Apparently,. many Democrats are sexist...
Let's not forget this in a few months if Hillary wins the nomination and we're busy calling the repukes a bunch of sexists, that we have many in our own party.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #79
97. Many Democrats ARE sexist...
...being a Democrat doesn't exclude a person from being sexist (as we've seen). Far from it.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
81. I just think this is a vacant argument
Hillary is losing the "Men vote"?? On what planet? Slice and dice the electorate , and we can also state she's gaining the "latino Vote" Are there no men among Latino voters?

No, what's being beaten to death is this tired argument. I'm against her because of her politics, and lack of testicles is a ridiculous thing to inject into an intelligent conversation. It has no bearing.

I resent Hillary being crammed down my throat by rich fat old white men, so if there's any sexism inherent in this, it would be in THAT.

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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Tired argument. Right. No sexism. Sure.

Now, Hillary is being crammed down your throat by rich fat old white men?

Fascinating. Those seem to be the people who hate her the most.

And, I PRECLUDED the article stating there ARE legitimate arguments against voting for her. Obviously, there are
people who are choosing another candidate for valid reasons.

Your post kind of proves my point. Don't talk about the sexism. Keep quiet, it doesn't exist. Racism we can discuss.

Latins are voting for her, so there?!

Your response is what is vacant.
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SaveOurDemocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
82. Excellent post, debbierlus ... thanks. k&r
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
84. Apparently many of the Obama supporters can't read.

At the VERY TOP OF THE POST, it states there are legitimate reasons NOT to vote for Hillary Clinton. I respect those reasons. The post was about the role of sexism in this election. I was a Kucinich supporter THEN an Edwards Supporter and, now by default, a Hillary supporter.

I know Hillary is NOT perfect. However, this is a completely legitimate issue and apparently one that is completely dismissed by those who do not support her. Whether you hate or love Hillary is NOT the issue, the role of sexism in the campaign IS the issue.

Fascinating to see 'progressives' dismiss a legitimate struggle in this society because they do not like the person targeted....

Yeah. We have come a long way, baby.

:sarcasm:
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
86. Only one problem with your Clinton analysis. You forgot to include that she cheats and she lies.
That sort of negates the other fine qualities she may have. I don't want a cheat OR a liar, male OR female, in the White House ever again.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. Oh please...show me a politician that doesn't

This is a little surreal. As a former Kucinich supporter, it is bizarre to be defending Hillary. I am not claiming Hillary is perfection. She is my LAST, default choice.

However, the fact that Hillary has engaged in political gamemenship right along with Obama does NOT negate the legitimacy of my post. The issue of sexism remains relevant.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #88
126. Capitulation to the Bush-Cheney torture agenda is not "political gamesmanship."
It's collaboration and it's a war crime.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
89. K and R
Our entire culture promotes the hatred of women.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
90. Sexism is voting for Hillary because she's a woman.
Sexism is voting for Hillary even though she lacks the values that progressives have.

Sexism is choosing the candidate who openly appeals to women to vote for her because she is a woman.

This isn't about a woman candidate. It's about a sorry woman candidate who doesn't deserve to represent this party.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #90
134. Touche, TO
The HRC folks just use the excuses of sexism and misogyny to cover their very flawed candidate.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
91. Here's your straw man.
"Men are going for Obama in something like a 2 to 1 ratio".

I'm not going to do the research to prove or disprove this. But I will observe that this implies that women are going for Hillary by a similar ratio.

Your post no more proves that men are voting against Hillary because they are sexist than it proves that women are voting against Obama because they are sexist (or racist for that matter).

Further, let's say that your conjecture is true and that men are voting for men (which is apparently sexist) and women are voting for women (which is apparently not sexist), does it not suggest something interesting about our society?

I'm a lukewarm Hillary supporter, but I don't see a qualitiative difference between a woman supporting Hillary solely on the basis of her gender and a man supporting Obama solely on the basis of his. Notwithstanding my preference for Hillary's policies, Hillary has been very transparent and successful in using appeals to the sorority for support.

I find this only slightly less objectionable than Obama's appeals to Ka-Chow! Star power! for his.
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CalGator Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #91
105. Couldn't agree more
While someone could argue that Obama's success is his ability to rally blacks/men to vote for him overwhelmingly, it is the same for Hillary drawing the women vote. It is bad for people to vote for one race/gender/sexual prefernece/religion over another, but it unfortunately happens. For Hillary supporters to yell "sexism" because men vote for Obama when at least a sizable proportion of her supporters vote for her simply for being a woman is quite hypocritical. There are plenty of feminists who have endorsed Obama and taken flak for it. But as feminsit Obama supporters have argued; feminism is about leveling the playing field so that the person is chosen on merit instead of gender. It's not about favoring women simply for being women.
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AGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
94. WOO HOOO K AND R!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
95. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
96. Hillary - like most women - is damned if she does, and damned if she doesn't...
...I said in another thread that men won't vote for a woman - NO MATTER WHAT her characteristics, policies, record, or charasma is or is not. They won't vote for a woman because they don't like THE IDEA AND THE DEFINITION OF WOMEN THEY HAVE IN THEIR OWN HEADS - which they project onto Hillary and any other woman out there.

It isn't about Hillary - it's about MEN'S IDEAS of what a woman is - has naught to DO with what women (or Hillary) REALLY are or are not. Many men won't vote for her - or any other woman just based on their attitudes towards women.

To men, a woman is always "mommy" and they will resent having a "mommy" as President. Is Hillary "motherly"? Well, it doesn't matter if she IS or if she IS NOT - as you can see - she'll be ridiculed either way.

This boils down to the fact that sexism, classism, and ageism are STILL RAMPANT in this society. OUR GOVERNMENT engaged in helping to try to eliminate racism in this country but NOT sexism, ageism or classism. THOSE 'isms' aren't considered important. After all, WOMEN are ONLY half of the damn country/world. They don't matter, right?

Pffft!

NOTHING LESS than a total sea-change in our society will fix this. It boils down to the TOTAL LACK OF MORALITY in this country.


HOW are our women, children, elderly, poor, sick, injured treated?


VERY.

BADLY.

AND THAT is the true measure of our national morality. NOT abortion or gay marriage. Those things are mere distractions from our TRUE morality and our TRUE MORALITY - stinks.

UNTIL and UNLESS this is remedied - MEN will operate and VOTE based on IMMORAL, backwards, sexist attitudes they have in their OWN HEADS about women.

We ALL wear the same dress, in their minds. WE KNOW that we don't - but THEY don't know that. There's a certain blind spot in men's minds where that is concerned. And they VOTE with it.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
99. Way to play the gender card..... poorly that is
you just don't get it, do you?
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ShadowLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
101. Sexism is hurting her I agree, but don't blame Obama for being more liked because of it
I definitely agree with you 100% that Hillary is getting hurt from sexism in our society. I mean off the top of my head, lets see, among the things she's called, power hungry is one of them, but the fact of the matter is that everyone running for president is at least somewhat power hungry and ambitious, otherwise they wouldn't be running for the job. I also agree with you that if a woman tries to act tough that she's often gets viewed a bitch, or bossy.

There's also another thing that's hurting Hillary, she's a liberal running as a candidate for a liberal party, women are viewed as more liberal then men in general, liberal women have a harder time getting elected then conservative women. If you're a liberal woman then your viewed as more of a radical feminist who doesn't represent everyone, even though women are feasting on the fruits of feminism today only something like 1/3 of women say they're a feminist, because more radical things are now associated with feminism rather then the right to vote and work the same jobs as a man. Conservative women however are viewed as more moderate, which helps them get elected because people think they represent the people more.

The parts where sexism hurts Hillary stops there however, and you step into lands of blaming Obama for benefiting from it.

While your right that there's not much of a difference in their policies, it's more then policies that determine people's vote. Obama is generally just a better speaker, he's consistent, and puts forth a vision that people can believe in, his supporters like that, and have fallen for him partially from his charisma. Hillary however, I honestly hear a lot less people who have heard her speak in person saying that she's a 'great' speaker. Also some of his supporters are probably attracted to him because the polls consistently show that he's the more electable of the two, who beats McCain a lot more often then Hillary does.

As for the other reasons why Obama gets support Hillary doesn't, quite simply, it's Hillary's fault for screwing up in ways not relating to her being a woman.

Hillary had the black vote 50% to 33%, but after Obama's New Hampshire win they started to get more undecided, but that wasn't what got him the like 80 to 90 to 10% advantage he now holds, it was the race controversy. Hillary and Bill screwed up really badly by saying very questionable stuff like "oh well, Jesse Jackson won South Carolina to", and "it took president Johnson to get King's dream realized", like it or not they offended people at a terrible time when a lot of their black supporters were starting to reconsider their support for Hillary after seeing Obama was a viable candidate.

Hillary is also choosing to show off her being a woman and make it an issue. It helps her attract women voters yes, they're 60% of the democrat electorate, but it does have a price to pay in men somewhat I would guess, in general election polls Hillary loses men to McCain by 15%, while Obama loses men to McCain by 10%. Obama may be black, but he rarely talks about it, (partially because blacks are a much smaller part of the democrat electorate then women, and he'd lose a lot of the support he has now if he ran as the black candidate), he transcends race in other words by running as who he is. It didn't get him the black vote for a while, but it eventually did from Hillary messing up.

Another problem Hillary has isn't talked about much, but she's flipped flopped as much as Mitt Romney when it comes to campaign themes and why you should vote for her. Ever hear people call Hillary calculating and inauthentic? That's a HUGE part of why, I mean remember when she used to run on campaign slogans that just highlighted experience and not change? Then she changed to "the experience to bring about change" and claiming to represent 35 years of change (without ever explaining where that 35 years comes from, I think she was still going to law school 35 years ago). She changes campaign themes at the drop of a hat, it all depends on what she thinks will appeal to the most people today. Mitt Romney to was thought of as inauthentic to many people, since they couldn't trust him on any issues, hence why he lost.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #101
115. Why should that hurt her?
"Hillary is also choosing to show off her being a woman and make it an issue."

I wish I had a nickle for every time Obama has brought up his race and background in a speech. Why shouldn't Hillary or Obama raise such issues? They're real, aren't they? Why should Obama be proud of the obstacles he and we have overcome in this society but when it's Hillary's turn it's counted against her. Double standard much?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 02:34 AM
Response to Original message
106. Her campaign went from being "inevitable" nominee to neck-and-neck
contender, and it isn't because she is a woman.
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noac7 Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
107. Great Post
But I think you shouldn't say a vote for Obama is a vote for immaturity of the nation; I still believe both are landmark candidates that can be voted upon based on policies.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
108. I don't hate her. I hate Kyl-Lieberman and cluster bombs
And Mark Penn, champion of Blackwater mercenaries. I don't think that subjecting all of the women of Iraq to what is for all practical purposes house arrest (and not apologizing for it) is particularly feminist either.

Not that Obama is all that much better, but at least he isn't lugging around an IWR vote, a pro-cluster bomb vote and a Kyl/Lieberman vote like radioactive sores.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #108
138. well put, it's not her gender
it's what she stands for, has voted for and the people she allies herself with. To whit her chief campaign strategist!
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 05:12 AM
Response to Original message
110. Horse Crap....
Are more white women voting for hillary than Obama because *they* are racist?
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #110
114. Stop! You're being rational!!
Watch her explain why it's different.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
116. Could one say people who don't support Obama don't due to racism?
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
117. So...
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 08:39 AM by ElboRuum
A vote against Clinton casts the specter of sexism upon the voter, especially if said voter is male?

Hmm...

As always, smilies help when what you feel is difficult to put into words:

:mad: :puke: :eyes: :crazy: :wtf: :argh: :hurts: :grr: :banghead:
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
120. If you're saying she's running on one issue, her gender,
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 08:32 AM by dailykoff
I believe you're right. She's got nothing else to run on. But it's not enough.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #120
123. p.s. the sexism no one will talk about is about all Hilly supporters talk about.
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 09:02 AM by dailykoff
There's at least one much-rec'ed thread per day, sometimes more, depending on the daily talking points.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
128. The irony is thick
"To me, the election of Barack Obama will not represent a sign of progress. It will show the immaturity of a nation that wants a feel good candidate instead of one of maturity."

Gee, is that what you said about the candidacy of JFK, RFK, and Bill Clinton? Hell, Clinton was the same age as Obama when he took the office of President, JFK was younger. Are you saying that they were immature also?

And your implication that the only reason Hillary is being defeated is because the country is sexist is, well, a sexist notion in and of itself. After all, there are plenty of reasons other than her sex not to like Hillary. Some big ones are her IWR vote, her funding of the war, and her Kyle Lieberman signature. But no, it must all be because America is sexist:eyes: Way to smear your fellow Democrats and liberals.

The Hillaryites are now becoming desperate and whiny. It is poetic justice to watch them fall, since initially in this campaign, they were the most belligerent and bellacose, demanding peoples' votes rather than trying to persuade people. Hmmm, maybe that's part of the problem also.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
135. I agree completely.
Nice post.
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Yurovsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
136. Strong women don't ride on the backs of their husbands ...
I respect ANY single mom 1,000,000,000X more than I could EVER respect HRC.

She's a fraud. To say she "lived the feminist principles" is the biggest line of BS I've ever read on DU. She's used her position as "Bill's wife" to get where she is today, and there is ABSOLUTELY nothing "feminist" about that.

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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #136
139. exactly
HRC supporters love equating Hillary with all women and ergo hating Hillary is hating women.

But they have blinders on and won't acknowledge he simple fact that many people who are opposed to Hillary are just that: OPPOSED TO HILLARY -- TO THAT PARTICULAR WOMAN! Period.

And your comment about about the OP's "she lived the principles of feminism" is spot on.

HRC rode Bill's coattails to positions of power. She hitched her wagon to HIS star power in the 1970s, moving to Arkansas (before they were married) to the shock and dismay of her friends who thought she was throwing away her future. She was calculating (even then) and knew HE was going places. His Momma even had her pegged! Mush of HRC's vaunted experience is as First LADY (Arkansas and US, 20 years in those roles). And had she not been First Lady, her bid for NY Senate seat (which has launched this POTUS bid) would have been laughable.

She's not the poster child for feminism or for women who have ever had to work their own way up the male chain of power and command, on their own name and merits.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #136
141. Come off it....she was a partner in his entire Presidency

And, many women would have crumbled under the bashing, slashing, & slander of a media that tore apart her every move.

She don't think that is strength? Just because her experience isn't one you can personally relate, it doesn't diminish the tenacity & strength she showed through a constant barrage of hate that the right wing threw at her.

These responses prove my point. Hillary has been through trial by fire. But, if she wasn't a poor single mom (and I have been, so don't think you personalize this against me to not understanding the issue, I lived & breathed it for many years), her struggles are invalid and her strength false.

Ah, women supporting women. I love it.

MEOW.
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andrewv1 Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #141
144. Do you want to win the General Election or do you want to make a point?
When I read an article like the one above, I realize how we have equally divided factions that will "rationalize" for their candidate even if it means they are a sure loser in November. As much as the Clinton supporters do it, the same can be said of Obama folks too. I am hoping more each day that we get to a deadlock convention in August. Our only hope for a Democratic President is a compromise candidate at the top of the ticket like Gore or Edwards. Or we can lose and try to analyze and prove our point for the next four years on who is a sexist and who is a racist.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #141
146. Thank you for the OP and for this thread
I'm afraid we have a long way to go before folks will admit to just how entrenched sexism is in this society.

Some years ago I had read a fascinating essay about how women themselves can sabotage other women due to sexism that often goes unrealized. In this culture women are taught to view other women as competition. Whereas men are taught to become "team players" and to gravitate towards strong leaders, some women -- either consciously or unconsciously -- perceive strong women to be a threat. Although such attitudes are more obviously in exhibit among those who identify themselves as conservatives, it's a nasty little undercurrent I've seen even here on progressive fora like DU. I suspect some women (and men) may unconsciously perceive Obama as a less threatening version of the Hillary they'd like to vote for. (That's admittedly not explaining myself very well but I'm a little beat this morning.)

The Republican machine is, however, at least at some level cognizant of just how sexist our society is, despite its denials and the dismissal of sexism as a passe issue. It's why you'll not see a woman running for a slot on the GOP ticket even as a vice-presidential candidate, where someone such as Condi Rice -- a darling of the ultra-conservative wing -- might seem a natural choice for a McCain looking to regain the conservative loyalties of his own party. And there is little doubt that should Barack Obama be our Democratic nominee come November, he too will pick a white male running mate who in his turn will be the party successor.

I do not believe that in my lifetime I will have the privilege of seeing a woman elected to the presidency of the United States. The sexism is simply too entrenched and yes, Virginia, we still live in a patriarchal society. This is an especially treacherous time for women in our country and it more than frightening to see the feeding frenzy launched upon one of the most powerful and accomplished allies women have ever had in this government -- Hillary Clinton.

It is of little satisfaction to say that in some future time folks will look back and rue the day they set out to utterly destroy the most powerful and qualified woman of our day.

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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #141
161. Except for NAFTA, Don't Ask Don't Tell, etc...
All the bad shit is his, and his alone.


:eyes:

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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #136
152. Wait, because she has a powerful husband, she should just fade into the background?
What a bunch of BS.
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From The Left Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
143. Bump
The tired meme that says, if you don't vote for Hillary Clinton, and you're a man, then you're a misogynist, would be laughable if anyone could take it seriously.

What sex organs Hillary has between her legs is virtually irrelevant. What is relevant is, Clinton voted for the Iraq war, and the USA Patriot Act. Now, an illegal, lethal war and an act that curtails our Constitutionally guaranteed rights, may not be important to Hillary's supporters but, for millions of Americans, these issues resonate and underscore why she's falling further behind Barack Obama.
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D-Sooner Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
145. That's your opinion
In my opinion, it has nothing to do with sexism. Sometimes people can vote for a man overwhelmingly against a woman and it's still not sexism.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
148. And if Obama were losing we would be seeing articles about why people won't vote for blacks
nt
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
153. Quite honestly, I do not believe all women "live the principles of
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 12:45 PM by Old Crusoe
feminism" or that all men do NOT "live the principles of feminism."

Concurrently I don't see all female politicians "living the principles of feminism" or all male politicians NOT "living the principles of feminism."

HClinton's campaign has slowed considerably. Her nomination is by no means "inevitable" and while several moderate Dem males left the race to clear a path -- Bayh, Vilsack -- it appears evident that no one in the Clinton campaign HQ anticipated Senator Obama's appeal to voters, which keeps growing in both number and diversity.

If she wins the nomination, it will not be because she is a woman and if she loses it will not be because she is a woman.

Politics involves many hours of strategy. I'm not seeing the HClinton strategy as a wildly successful one to date. Blaming her campaign's strategy decisions on "sexism" is bullshit.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
154. You yourself say that there are "a bunch of legitimate reasons not to vote for Hillary Clinton"
But we should vote for her anyway because... she is a woman? How is that not sexism?
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
155. If Hillary can't stand up to perceived sexism,
how can she stand up to threats from people like Ahmadinejad? I think her pandering to women, particularly older women like me, reinforces the gender difference and feeds the fire. She should treat voters with respect and realize they will cast their votes based on issues and not on race or gender.
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557188 Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
156. Its still accetable to be sexist
Being racist, in public, is a big no no.

Its acceptable to be sexist in the public. People even cheer you on for doing such things.

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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
160. By your same logic, Hillary supporters are RACIST!
:sarcasm: :eyes:
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Chalco Donating Member (817 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
162. Sexism is deeper than racism.
The a...h... that infuriated me the most on this topic was I think Tucker who questioned how she dared to present herself as a victim when she has had all the advantages for gods sake she went to Wellesley, was a lawyer, married Bill, was First Lady, blah, blah, blah.

There is no doubt in my mind that along the way to all of her so-called advantages she was put down for being a woman, put down for not knowing her place, sexually harassed, given less pay than the men of equal rank, criticized for not being a stay at home mom, told there was no point in becoming a lawyer she was just going to get married and be a mom. Women were/are jealous of her for having a career, being successful, being a mom and an attorney, overcoming obstacles placed in front of her by the male dominated world.

GET OVER IT. HILLARY IS A WOMAN.

Wouldn't it be better for the world if the president of the United States was able to use all of her faculties in order to make decisions. Wouldn't it be better for the world if the president of the United States before they went to war thought about the consequences, felt about the consequences and perhaps decided that the human cost was too great to pursue that particular problem solving technique and instead negotiated diplomatically. Huh? Don't ya think?

GIVE ME A BREAK. WE NEED A WOMAN NOW.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #162
190. WE NEED A WOMAN NOW? Cynthia McKinney then.
Now there is a strong woman with principles that fearlessly challenges the likes of Rumsfled and the other ghouls, right in their face.

She is a woman, And she is Black! bingo! whole problem solved...

oops, cept she's not a democrat anymore - they ran her out of town on trumped up crap to shut her mouth.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
163. the entire Hoboken,NJ Fire Department voted for her...not a firefem amongst them
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 01:36 PM by ElsewheresDaughter
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
164. "the sexism no one will talk about"?
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 01:24 PM by LostInAnomie
This is GD: Primaries. "Sexism" towards Hillary is brought up in about every other post.
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EndElectoral Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
166. Hogwash! I'd vote for Barbara Boxer in a sec. HRC's war rhetoric, big insurance corp contributions
The list goes on. There are many democratic women I'd vote for in a second. Hilary is not a progressive, she's more of a centrist. I want someone who is strongly against the Iraq War, she's not. In fact she stil lrefuses to admit her vote was wrong, something at least Edwards admitted. As to health care, the rhetoric doesn't match the reality. She's taking huge insurance company contributions. I mean c'mon, get real here instead of playing to sexist fears.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #166
167. Barbara Boxer works for me.
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gorekerrydreamticket Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #167
183. Me too...n/m
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
168. Your post stinks and shows a complete lack of respect towards the Amercan people
voters, and the better candidate.

:puke:
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From The Left Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #168
170. Agreed.
Andrea Dworkin died a long time ago.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
178. Sorry Debberlius but as a woman over 50 who voted for Obama it was the war, not her gender.
As a woman, I have always looked forward to voting for a viable woman for president but as an American, I believe that the Iraq war has been an unmittigated disaster. I blame the Bush admistration first and foremost but Democrats in Congress who gave Bush a blank check to do what he wanted against Saddam Hussein--cannot escape blame.

Sadly, as much as I'd like to, I could not vote for Senator Clinton in my state's primary. Up until the moment she declared she was running for president, her position on the war was almost identical to that of Senator McCain. She was critical of the conduct of the war but unwavering on the idea that it was the right thing to do and steadfastly opposed any congressional actions to end the war. Since declaring herself as a candidate, her position on the war has evolved, she is now calling for troop withdrawals. Mind you, if she is the nominee, I will support her. McCain has indicated that he would be willing to spend a hundred years in Iraq. There is a clear and compelling difference.

I will not vote for a candidate with whom I have fundamental differences on such an issue simply because she is a woman--sexism is an ugly thing but so is tribal politics.
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Malidictus Maximus Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
185. Don't "Hate" her
but as a man, I consider myself 'feminist' enough to dislike a candidate because they are a 'say and do anything to get elected' person- in other words just another politician- and one who espouses positions I disagree with (Iraq, RKBA, etc). Cleavage doesn't have a damn thing to do with it.

I won't vote for *OR* against someone based on race or sex (or sexual orientation, or religion). If somebody doesn't like that they can go to hell.
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hertopos Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
195. K&R thank you, you said it all
I never became this bitter with a Democratic candidate ever.

Obama supporters and their rhetoric disgusts me.

Hertopos
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 04:03 AM
Response to Original message
197. you are correct
funny reading all the squeals of denials and protests
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