Any man who dismisses sexism out of hand, when a woman brings it to his attention

[boston bean]

is a sexist, imho.

Would you tell a black person they were crazy for feeling they were discriminated against. No

So why is it so easy to dismiss a woman's feeling of discrimination?

[Bread and Circus]

1. Why don't you just ask us "when did you stop beating your wife"?

It's amounts to the same sort of charge.

You can't deny it because once you do you are guilty of it.

[Donnachaidh]

16. someone is a tad touchy about the subject, eh?

Blow a simple post out of proportion JUST to minimize it? Oh no, THAT'S not done here is it? :sarcasm:

[Bread and Circus]

34. No, it's just that I've never been accused of being sexist in my life...

nor have I ever heard the charge of sexism be thrown around so much in my life. It seems really fake when people are using the word as a political weapon. The problem with being charged with any "ism" is that you can't deny it.

If we wanted to, the Obama supporters could be calling every other thing that doesn't go in his favor "racism" and it would be just as legitimate as how people are using the word "sexism" in reference to Clinton.

But seeing as how it's cheap, lazy, and not entirely accurate, we don't.

I'm beyond touchy, I am disgusted at the mental tertitude.

[Guaranteed]

115. Yeah, well sometimes people don't like being manipulated.

It tends to piss them off.

[LulaMay]

41. That's a rather chilling response.

[Dhalgren]

71. I agree with you, Lu. It struck me as really creepy...

:puke:

[goldcanyonaz]

2. I'm just as disgusted with the overwhelming number of women using sexist jargon.

I don't know if the Democratic party represents me any longer. The talk was great until a woman ran for POTUS'

[never_get_over_it]

48. What I've learned here at DU since the debate in NH

is that sexism IS SO INGRAINED that people who believe in their heart of hearts that they are not being sexist don't even realize when they are making a sexist statement. The past month has shook me to my core.....and turned me from a person who had SERIOUS SERIOUS issues with Hillary Clinton into a supporter.....

I have tried to check when some of these statements have been made here - the gender of the poster and my COMPLETELY unscientific poll I do think more men make these statements - but there have been plenty of women too - one women brought me to absolute tears - I can't remember what she said but it was OUTRAGEOUSLY sexist and I really believe she didn't get or understand why it was....

[LulaMay]

55. That is the most indefensible remark I've read. It's not women being suspended for "sexist jargon".

[ElsewheresDaughter]

56. agreed

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

60. especially if they start crying on public tv in front of the nation

I am a woman, but I know that it is completely unprofessional to cry at work or in public.

DO it at work and see how far your career will go.

[Anwen]

133. Ok, the whole "crying" thing is so ridiculously blown out of proportion.

I saw the clip. She didn't cry. Her voice softened/cracked. But I didn't see any tears running down her face. She's human, and humans get emotional under times of stress. Oh, wait -- I forgot. She planned the whole thing, anyway.

This has gotten so silly.

[VotesForWomen]

108. unfortunately, a lot of women are eager to show that they're 'one of the guys.' nt

[LoZoccolo]

3. Define "out of hand". n/t

[OzarkDem]

4. Agree, and we're seeing so much of it

There's such a double standard when it comes to discussing gender issues.

[maddiejoan]

5. I know!

Because we are just being shrill and hysterical.

CAN I HAZ BAUBLE NOW?

[ingac70]

6. Because in Hillary supporters' case...

they take the opportunity to scream sexism when Hillary's voting record is pointed out.

[KittyWampus]

7. well, Hillary's flying monkeys on DU happily dismissed the racist crap coming from her surrogates

like shucknjive Cuomo.

[LoZoccolo]

9. This is true.

I know at least one of the people who brought it up was black as well, so all of Hillary's flying monkeys are racist.

[DS1]

what feelings of discrimination are being dismissed?

[NJSecularist]

8. Stop bringing up the sexist card all the time.

It makes you look like a broken record.

[boston bean]

14. |'ll stop bringing it up when it doesn't exist anymore. And as far as I can tell

I will be bringing it up my whole life.

[boston bean]

15. |'ll stop bringing it up when it doesn't exist anymore. And as far as I can tell

I will be bringing it up my whole life.

[LulaMay]

40. Stop saying "play the CARD". Sexism isnt a game. Men beat and kill women evry day.

Your remarks are offensive.

[jgraz]

89. And that reality is cheapened every time the Hillaroids play the victim for political points

[robbedvoter]

43. It's a "card"? In what game? Typical RW vocabulary when confronted with their prejudices

(not saying you are, you're just using their memes without realizing)
Here's the thing: for most of us, this ain't a game. Of cards, of dice of anything.

[OzarkDem]

46. As long as we see sexism in our party and candidates

we will keep bringing it up. Get over it.

The Democratic Party is the party of women, more than half of all Dem voters are women. Deal with it.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

64. The DEMS are far more racist than sexist

everyone wants to give Hillary a free pass on everything since she's a woman.

whoop te doo.

If she isn't able to advance without playing the sexist card, then she isn't worth 2 cents.

[OzarkDem]

75. Its not a contest

if Hillary made a racist statement, fill me in on it.

[NJSecularist]

98. If Obama made a sexist statement, fill me in on it

Fact: He didn't.

Fact: You wish he did.

Fact: You put words in his mouth to try and make Hillary look like the victim.

[LulaMay]

88. What a ludicrous statement. Defend it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

10. Black people are essentially being told they are crazy for reacting to Clintons' racebaiting. nt

[Donnachaidh]

18. links?

really -- when adn how were they racebaiting?

[LulaMay]

76. So HRC should be berated with sexism because you believe she is racist?

That is ludicrous.

And it seems everyone has conveniently forgotten that Obama admitted in the 1st debate after that 'scandal' that HIS CAMPAIGN had pushed that 'story' with a 4 page press release of supposedly racist statements made by Senator or Pres. Clinton or "staffers connected to the campaign." He said he REGRETTED IT, and everyone gave him a pass. Everyone here knows HRC and Bill Clinton are not racists.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

109. That wasn't a press release it was a memo cataloging events.

That got leaked to the press. And he had to "regret" it, lest he be accused of playing the race card for what the Clintons have done. I personally don't think he owes anyone an apology but he had to do it or the Clintons would run with it to attract white votes.

After our exchange yesterday you have no credibility with me on this issue. You refuse to see what is all around you.

[Plausible]

11. I agree

Too many of us women are too nice.

[Captain Hilts]

112. We're punch-drunk from movies, late-night comedians, etc. nt

[Danger Mouse]

12. Schuster's comment = sexist.

If I see something that seems legitimate, I won't 'dismiss' it.

[jgraz]

13. And the campaign for Victim-in-Chief continues.

:eyes:

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

67. OMG you are so right, the Clintons have a history of playing the victim card!!!

You hit the Clinton nail right on the head.

People seem so easily sucked in by this ploy, its sickening.

[LulaMay]

78. What 'CARD' would that be? The one wher she's called a bitch, witch, shrill, hot, pimp?

She hasn't said one public word about it, although she's been raked over the coals.

[jgraz]

85. No, the one where they bring it up every time someone points out that she'd make a shitty president

Remember her whining about "the boys" picking on her? There's some strong feminist values for you.

[robbedvoter]

99. You mean, unlike Obama's OFFICIAL strategy of gaining sympathy as the Clintons' victim?

"The outlines of a strategy are becoming visible. Obama and his surrogates will operate under the assumption that the more aggressive Hillary Clinton campaigns, the more outbursts Bill Clinton has, the more voters in interior red and purple states will find the Clintons off-putting and that the negative feelings will obscure the Clinton mantra that only she (and he) can stand up and protect their interests."
snip
Advisers believe that the more the Clintons poke at Obama, the more sympathetic he becomes,
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/01/obama_and_clinton_to_clintons.php

[jgraz]

107. With the Clintons, that's just good strategy.

Obama isn't talking about his race, even though the Clintons try to inject race at every opportunity. He's just talking about how off-putting the Clintons' craven ambition is.

Contrast that with the way Hillary cynically plays up her gender at every opportunity.

[melody]

17. I'm a woman and I say some women see sexism everywhere

Andrea Dworkin and Susan Brownmiller were famous for it.

You have more power in your reaction than the person speaking to you. If you feel someone is a bigot,
then that person is a bigot. The problem isn't with you, it's with them. However, if you feel that
way about everyone, then you isolate yourself. Thus, critical thinking should be brought to emotional
outrage.

[truedelphi]

45. Thanks for the voice of sanity.

Sexism is a force, but I believe that we are now into a generation where the women coming up have power.

A woman ran Autodesk, and other women have run Hollywood studios and Silicon Valley entities like Hewlett Packard.

For us women who are older, it has been a rough ride. I entered the work force just a few years after the white gloves, and skirts to the knee were no longer de rigeur. But heaven help me if i had applied for a job with a ring in my nose. (Just changing in the ladies room into blue jeans so I could make a long (and fun) walk home in the snow a warmer event used to make the senior executives' eye sockets go through their cerebellum.)

But I think the fruits of the past thirty years are evident. Of course there are still bigots out there. But there is also a counter bigotry - you see men slapped around in commercials, or made fun of in advertisements, every day. What message is that about?

On the whole, I am glad my granddaughter is a granddaughter. I think if we can keep the lid on the world's tendency to go into major war under control, she is in for a fabulous life.

[melody]

70. Well said

Sexism comes in all forms, including sexism toward men. Violence toward men seems to acceptable in cinema, just as violence against women used to be.

Ours is a shared journey. The genders need each other. When we see this as a human problem not a gender problem, we'll go past all the old biases, imho.

[OzarkDem]

53. And some women don't, but know it when they see it

Women shouldn't be discouraged from standing up for themselves, particularly in the political arena.

[melody]

59. Not discouraging it in the least, just encouraging people to question their own reactions first

Ours can be wrong, too.

[Little Star]

77. I'm a woman and I say some women do not recognize sexism..

even when they are the victim of it. Sexism is very insidious, subtle. Here:
Insidious, which comes from a Latin word meaning "ambush," means "slowly and subtly harmful".

[melody]

121. And I say many people use their arational, emotional reaction to judge such things

Rational: (Adjective)
Not consistent with or using reason

To take every potentially innocent remark as absolutely sexist is far more insidious than any valid instance of
sexism. Sexism stays with the bearer. Our reactions eat at our minds. It's also wildly unfair to the other person to accept
our own emotional reaction to their words as the only valid interpretation of what was said. In that is an even clearer
form of sexism.

[Little Star]

125. Then how do you explain

racism?

To take every potentially innocent remark as absolutely racist is far more insidious than any valid instance of
racism. Racism stays with the bearer. Our reactions eat at our minds. It's also wildly unfair to the other person to accept
our own emotional reaction to their words as the only valid interpretation of what was said. In that is an even clearer
form of racism.

Sorta reminds me of: Harassment is determined by the person being harassed, not by the person doing the harassing.

[melody]

129. Your reaction is a case in point

It underlines what I mean -- you read my remarks to make an absolute statement that you then constructed
an argument to refute. You were swimming with an emotional tide. You're not reading what I wrote and
trying to understand the context.

Incidentally, I would agree completely with your recasing my remarks (incidentally, you've clearly read my posts on racism without
seeing the perceived part, because you've addressed this with my argument without understanding it ... that's
a tactic of an emotionally driven debater). Why did you assume I wouldn't agree with that? Because I'm an
Obama supporter now? Did you think I was black? Might I then infer you're white? -- those last questions
being an example of emotionally reacting to one's own perception as if it's valid for the other person as well.

It's your supposition that such a perspective would naturally lead to this which isn't a fact:

"Sorta reminds me of: Harassment is determined by the person being harassed, not by the person doing the harassing."

Not at all. I'm merely saying we need to be as responsible for our subjective reactions as we are confrontational of someone
else's "sexism". There's a truly fine writer named Robert Anton Wilson who used to be accused of sexism all the time
because some feminists had reactionary instincts to certain words and phrases. He was the least sexist person I've ever
known.

[Little Star]

130. On this very board, I've seen people accused of racism, after

having read many of their other posts, they were clearly not. I agree that not all who are called racist,sexist,etc. really are.

My point is, that people find it much harder to recognize sexism than racism. Now we have another person on this board discriminating against older people, calling them the Geritol Generation. Nice, huh?

All of it needs to stop! How can it be stopped? By calling it what it is, thats how. We can not pretend it doesn't happen, bury our heads in the sand, so to speak.

[melody]

135. But what it is isn't set in stone -- that's my whole point - and no one says it doesn't happen

I think at this point, you're reading what you want me to be writing. Have the last word and let's leave it at
that. Further communication is pointless.

[whatchamacallit]

19. So... like all black people, all women are de-facto victims of discrimination

Is that the message of this insightful post?

[LulaMay]

52. Yes. People who sneer that there are "victims" are defending violence againt women. Period.

[whatchamacallit]

92. I'm not sneering. I agree with John Lennon ; "Woman Is the Nigger of the World", but

I believe that's changing, even if ever so slowly. I don't think vague blanket claims of sexism in relation to Hillary are very useful. Yes, she will take a hit in the polls from haters, but look on the bright side, she's a US senator who has a real shot at becoming the next president. I'm a guy, and I can't make either claim. Good for her and good for you.

[Bluerthanblue]

122. and people who use claims of victimization

and exaggerate their story, do more harm for us in the long run than many actual victimizers.

Remember the Duke Lacrosse players?

They are now seen as golden boys- not because they are model citizens, but because they were accused of doing much more than they actually did- and those who tried to capitalize on the situation, and use it to make a case against these rich, macho, college boys, who bought women to entertain them, - actually ended up making these guys into sort of cult heroes. :shrug:

Who is "sneering" or claiming that there are no genuine victims of violence against women??????


peace~

[Bluerthanblue]

20. I hate to remind you that there are male prostitutes too- this wasn't

a sexist comment- it was a crude, rude statement that was uncalled for and has been thouroughly addressed.

If someone says to me "gee you look sweet in that sweater"- and it hits me the wrong way- can I claim that he is being sexist?

"Give me a break"! as Clinton himself is known to say.

You are comparing two completely different issues.


let it go. This kind of overkill only serves to make people dismiss genuine sexism.

peace~

[boston bean]

69. Have you seen one "genuine" act or word of sexism in this election?

[LulaMay]

82. You're kidding, right? Do you WATCH MSNBC?

[boston bean]

91. you meant to post to bluerthanblue, right? nt

[LulaMay]

90. What a dumb remark. Men are almost exclusively JOHNS. You deny sexism exists.

[Bluerthanblue]

114. that just goes to show how myopic your vision is-

I don't deny sexism exists. I definitely does. The 'pimping' incident is not one of them. No matter how you may try and spin it.

You do not seem able to admit that oppression, hatred, and abuse occur to almost all individuals in some way based not on the content of their character, or their own personal actions, but because they are : poor, ugly, uneducated, from any number of ethnic backgrounds, tall, short, fat, thin, wealthy, live in a middle eastern country, etc.

You NEED to make the prostituting a family member sexist- because it advances the candidate you support and it gives you an opportunity to champion your personal cause.

That doesn't mean that your need trumps the right of each one of us to determine for ourselves what the intent of this incident was. Perception is a very personal thing- especially when it comes to something as nebulous as this.

Is Hillary USING Chelsea? absolutely- All the candidates USE their relations to their advantage, and try to minimize those who don't "help" their image. "Billy Carter"- "Roger Clinton"- etc. It is politics. I do NOT deny that this guy singling out Chelsea and making a rude comment is something that he should have apologized for. To claim sexism over it is to minimize true incidents of sexist behaviour.


peace~

[LulaMay]

93. I'll go further. You ARE sexist for repeatedly denying the sexism of Schuster's gross comment.

[Bluerthanblue]

116. "I know you are but what am I"-

play all the name games you like Lula- you are entitled to your opinion.
That is all any of this is.


peace~

[BlackVelvet04]

126. He said that? I just caught the last part

of his show, but if he truly said that it's the last time I catch any part of his show.

[suston96]

21. Bill Maher last night: who woulda thought it possible......

....a black candidate and a vagina candidate......

[jgraz]

29. actually he said

An African-American and a Vaginal-American. Not his best work.

[suston96]

30. Thanks. Yes, that's more like it. It will be repeated all week on HBO. He needs those writers..nt

[OzarkDem]

62. Sexist pig

When will men realize that when they make those kinds of remarks they look like ignorant a$$es to most people?

I've heard the "vagina" reference in discussions here at DU in the primary. Where is that coming from? The ignorant "laddie boy" tv shows like Mahrs?

[LulaMay]

95. He's always been a sexist. He's funny on a host of other issues, but never that.

[Captain Hilts]

113. He IS a sexist penis-American, but that comment is kind of funny. nt

[Anwen]

137. Sometimes he is funny...

But that one made me cringe.

[LoZoccolo]

22. I think I know what you are getting at, and have decided to take my own stand.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4501112&mesg_id=4501112

[niyad]

23. the nyt had an interesting article on this a few weeks ago:

CONTESTED; Rights vs. Rights: An Improbable Collision Course

By MARK LEIBOVICH
Published: January 13, 2008

BARRING some seismic scandal, unforeseen late entry (''Al Who?''), or unlikely surge by John Edwards, it is wholly inevitable that the race for the Democratic nomination will end next August in an epochal first.

Either Senator Barack Obama will be the first African-American or Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton will be the first woman to win the presidential nomination of a major American political party. One of them will take the stage at Denver's Pepsi Center, specked with confetti and soaked in history as a culminating figure of one of the great ideological movements of the last century -- civil rights or women's rights.

To this point, both Mr. Obama and (to a lesser degree) Mrs. Clinton have been diligent in trying not to identify too closely with either movement. Mr. Obama rarely mentions his race explicitly, leaving the heavy rhetoric of his groundbreaking potential to his wife, Michelle (who in a speech in November spoke of lifting ''that veil of impossibility that keeps us down and keeps our children down''). Mrs. Clinton has made more direct appeals to mothers and daughters and ''making history,'' but has for the most part predicated her candidacy on the masculine virtues of toughness, resolve and her extensive experience in the (male-dominated) realm of politics and government.

Still, whether the candidate wants the mantle or not, whoever wins the nomination will be bestowed (or bludgeoned) with the hopes and legacy of a movement. The victory will be a benchmark moment for the American promise of equality, and the Democrats will add to their partisan quiver a feel-great story that could buoy them in the fall. ''Americans are looking for a way to break barriers,'' Karl Rove said last week in an interview with National Public Radio (not that Mr. Rove, President Bush's chief political maharishi, is at risk of helping either Mr. Obama or Mrs. Clinton do this). ''They would love to elect a woman president; they would love to elect an African-American president.'

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B07E5DA153FF930A25752C0A96E9C8B63&scp=1&sq=rights+vs+rights&st=nyt

[Frosty1]

117. A true story

In the '70s I worked for the state legislature. The department of Economic development was involved with the set-a-side program which directed a certain amount of purchasing be directed to women and minorities. A war quickly developed between women and minorities as to who qualified to bid for these contracts. It was never settled and the women never did get any contracts. They kept fighting over that slice of the pie until a Republican Governor was elected, who promptly did away with that slice of the pie.

[Bitwit1234]

24. All they will do is run out buy more viagra and a higger cod piece.

[Bitwit1234]

oopps should have read bigger cod piece thats

what I get for ignoring spell check.

[DeepModem Mom]

25. K&R

[whatchamacallit]

26. I don't get it, is this a woman thing?

Heh, sorry.

[Avalux]

27. Stop it already.

Yes, sexism exists and there are some men who should just be written off because of their degradation of women.

As a single mother raising daughters, I've had to deal with sexism for a very long time. There's a right way and a wrong way to deal with it. The wrong way is to cry "sexism" and portray oneself as a victim at every opportunity.

[boston bean]

32. sparo i do not point it out in my real life because of the consequences.

But there is a time to point it out the double standard.

I am ashamed I don't point it out everytime it happens to me, i am a coward.

Maybe, if we all stopped being afraid of what might be said about us, we might be able to move beyond it.

[OzarkDem]

73. Good point

Women need to stop fearing what someone will think if they stand up for themselves. Why is it necessary to "go along to get along"?

[whatchamacallit]

33. Word n/t

[niyad]

50. as a matter of curiousity, what IS the right way? since I have been dealing with this issue for

many decades, please tell me what I am doing wrong.

[Avalux]

63. It's their problem, not mine. I don't waste any time worrying about it and I move on.

Changing the sexist mentality of a male adult is impossible so why bother?

[bettyellen]

96. hello, it creates problems for all women- and Doh! yes persceptions can and do change

but someone has to raise the bar. so sorry it's too hard for you, but that kinda weak.

[Dhalgren]

104. So, it's what? "Boys will be boys?" That's not acceptable, is it?

It isn't for me. I am a man and I am 100% in support of womens rights, period. Sexism offends me. And I am most offended and chagrined when I detect a sexist particle within me. I am not perfect, but I will not dismiss the abuse and the oppression that women all over the world suffer. This isn't some kind of Victorian nicety, this is life and death; right and wrong; moral and immoral; ethical and unethical; I won't compromise on this - I am the husband of a woman, I am the father of a woman...

[hulklogan]

28. Militant straights tell GLBT Americans what is and what isn't homophobic all the time

Welcome to the club.

[robbedvoter]

38. I agree. It's the very same club - and sex discrimination applies to both.

I always felt that.

[boston bean]

42. yes, it is the same thing. it all sucks! nt

[Bluenorthwest]

111. Same club! Yes! Militant straights! Yes!

Thanks to both who wrote those lines. Just today here at DU I was called silly for saying that sexism and homophobia are pretty much the same thing while being lectured on what is not homophobia by a militant straight poster.

[niyad]

31. k & r

[LulaMay]

35. It is dismissed as 'natural' order of things, by men who'd like to keep it that way.

[robbedvoter]

36. because we all know women are emotional. hysterical- and when their time of the month

will be over - they'll get over it and vote Obama (while his voters, strong men of principles, won't ever vote for the bitch):eyes:

[fenriswolf]

37. so do i reserve the same right to call a women sexist?

I mean all things being fair and equal I as a man can scream sexism and reverse sexism.

[Splinter Cell]

39. Sexism isn't to blame

Why can't somebody lose at something without thinking it was because of their race or gender?

Is it a factor in this historic race, yes I'm sure it is. Is it the deciding factor, no.

[boston bean]

44. When you're a woman you can feel it. You knolw what it is. You know

the code, the looks.

It is happening on TV all day every day. Maybe you will just have to take my word for it, if you can't see it for yourself.

[robbedvoter]

47. Losing was not in OP's point. It's the attitudes, the kind of attacks that are levelled

at Hillary that reveal the sexism. The intensity of the hatred. From people that otherwise have no obvious reason to have such intense feelings about her. One can disagree with someone on the issues without frothing at the mouth. And this forum swims in froth.

[Splinter Cell]

54. True...

True. However I don't personally believe it's racism that's causing all the hatred toward Obama from the Hillary supporters. There is going to be that element out there when we have a black candidate and a female candidate as the two finalists, but I don't think it's a huge massive movement against either one.

[tomg]

49. Actually any man who dismisses a

charge of sexism out of hand is a complete idiot to boot. But, for me, as a male, that really isn't the problem. A few weeks ago, my wife and I were listening to Tweety and they were discussing Clinton. For the most part, I dismiss Matthews and, as usual, I was dismissing him. My wife was seething, and when I finally asked her why she was so ticked, she said "you really don't hear it, do you." I said words to the effect of "what, Matthews is being an arrogant asshole again?" She said "it's a boys club up there. Try listening and hearing what I hear."

I don't support Clinton ( I am still neutral - I want way more from health care than Obama offers, and Clinton's vote on the land mine issue is serious shit to me - and those are just starters for both). My wife does support Clinton and my sons are for Obama. But I've been trying to listen to nuance and tone and innuendo ( and not just the obvious), and the sexism is so thick you can't wade through it.

[robbedvoter]

57. Thank you. You get it. It's not about who you support, but the underpinning

of the dialog. Thank you.

[tomg]

81. thanks, but without someone

going through it to point it out to me, in this case my wife (although I know my sister who supports Obama feels the same way and would tell me the same thing), I would not have gotten it. So I hope people keep pointing it out.

[Armstead]

51. I think it's sexist to always assume someone is right, because of their gender

Someone who assumes the motives of someone else (or some institution) can be totally wrong in those assumptions.

If, for example, I'm an employer choosing between a male and female applicants, and I choose the male, the choice may have nothing to do with their gender. So to automatically assume the choice is sexist because the losing applicant says so would be sexist.

[boston bean]

58. Duh!

[Armstead]

65. No don't cop out with a cheap shot....

If you think I'm wrong in saying that, then enlighten this dumbass male and point it out to me.

[boston bean]

72. I don't think you are wrong, I think you are stupid if you think this post has anything to do with

what you posted about.

[Armstead]

83. I must be stupid -- I took the words for what they were

I didn't see any reference to a specific situation in your post, or that you were limiting it to one level.

If you were talking only about the tone of the campaigns, or the way people here react to them, then you should say so.

[robbedvoter]

66. Affirmative action opponents made identical arguments with this one.

The OP point was NOT about who is right and who is wrong. Obviously, not everyone who supports someone else is sexist. Only the ones who, are truly motivated by sexist feelings.
They know who they are. I only find out when they reveal it themselves.
I do not assume anything.

[Armstead]

80. I was responding to the "dismisses out of hand..." tone of the post

That is about who is right and who is wrong.

If a male candidate was a salesperson who made $100,000 in sales while the female candidate made $25,000, it's not sexism to prefer to hire the person who would bring in more money....The only way it would be sexism is if their records were the opposite and I still hired the male.

[boston bean]

86. Armstead, this is not that argument, you are trying to make it too simple.

It is a pervasive sexism.

It's not black or white, it lives in undertones, things women can't put their finger on and things men can deny.

[Armstead]

102. Well that's a much bigger and more encompassing subject

If you want to apply it to the primaries, I would suggest that your OP should be more specific.

My reaction was to the broad assumption.

In terms of the undertones of the primaries, I can only speak for myself. Frankly I am angry and disappointed in both Bill and Hillary Clinton for reasons that have nothing to do with their genders. Since she is the one running for president, my criticisms of her are directed primarily at her.

What's frankly difficult, is that I don't like to feel that I have to hold back or treat her with kid gloves to worry about seeming or being accused of being sexist towards her, while I would be less restrained towards a male candidate.

[boston bean]

110. Do you realize that when you justify your feelings in this way:

"What's frankly difficult, is that I don't like to feel that I have to hold back or treat her with kid gloves to worry about seeming or being accused of being sexist towards her, while I would be less restrained towards a male candidate."

You feel because she is a woman you can't treat her the way you would a man? Which in some way puts her on a lower level.

I don't want to describe you as a sexist. I understand that you feel you are sensitive to the issue, but I think that if you tried, you might be able to see where you take a wrong turn on this.

If you can discuss issues and recognize sexism when it occurs, you will not have those fears.

[Armstead]

119. Frankly my concerns are more about the reaction

Again, to make clear, I am not defending the blatant slanders that are obvious sexism.

But there is a large grey area that does make it difficult to treat her as any otehr candidate.

I'll give you an example.

In 04 Howard Dean was repeatedly described by his critics or opponents as "shrill" because he was supposedly too loud and strident. (I supported Dean so I disagreed with that assessment, but that's another story). No one took it in a way that had anything to do with gender.

However, this year, no one is supposed to call Hillary "shrill" even if they believe she is being loud and strident, because it supposedly has gender implications.

That has nothing to do with how I might view Hillary herself. But it has everything to do with how we handle these things.

[boston bean]

124. I give up. You only want to look at obvious slanders of sexism

I have tried to give you an idea on the pervasiveness of sexism and you still don't get it.

[Armstead]

127. Okay we'll just have to agree to disagree

I'm honestly not trying to be hard headed. Just tried to give you an idea of the pervasive difficulties of males honestly trying to come to grips with all of this.

Since we're both Massachusetts Dems, let's just politely agree to disagree and :toast: our great blue state.

[boston bean]

128. yes

:toast: to massachusetts and to be able to politely disagree.

[robbedvoter]

87. That's about the total refusal to acknowledge the existing undertone.

Off hand - won't even entertain the possibility, look closer at it.

[Armstead]

105. I don;t dismiss the sexist undertones of some of the tone of the campaigns

Sure it's there. And I won't defend that.

But if we're going to have a meaningful struggle about the overall future of the Democratic Party and the US, I do worry that an excess of sensitivity is stifling and overshadowing the real debates about the economy and other crucial issues.

[LulaMay]

97. Whenever a man gets defensive about sexism, he usually has something he's guilty of.

[LulaMay]

101. We were talking about MSNBC and the campaign...not YOU! But please, do elaborate...

so we can get an idea of just how sexist you are.

[Armstead]

120. I'm really sexist

You've already made up your mind about that, so I won't even bother to reply.

[LaurenG]

61. I have to hand it to you, you are persistent. nt

[OzarkDem]

68. And I'm glad of that.

[WillyT]

74. HEY !!! - Get This Crap Outta GD:P And Back To GD Where It Belongs !!!

We're trying to have a food fight here goddammit!

:evilgrin:

[boston bean]

79. R U trying to tell women to get back in the kitchen? LOL

See i can joke and take one!

[WillyT]

84. LOL !!! - I Knew Ya Could !!!

:hi:

[LulaMay]

103. A woman is running for president, in the face of much sexism, and it isn't about the PRIMARY to you?

[MadBadger]

94. Why is this in GD-P?

[LulaMay]

106. WHAT? A woman is running for president, amidst a ton of sexism that affects the race.

[cooolandrew]

100. Right we broke the ceiling with Nancy and look at the state. It can't be about just being female ...

...its ludicrous.

[Wombatzu]

118. why take the time to post this?

when you could be making someone a sandwich?

[CyberPieHole]

123. Agreed. Kick and recommend.n/t

[mondo joe]

131. The lesson of GD:P for me is that for some, all principles are secondary to partisanship.

[cd3dem]

132. just had a disagreement with a white male who told me, I did not understand discrimination!

until you walk in a woman's shoes... you will never know!

[Umbram]

136. Yes.

You should definitely judge someone's ability to comprehend based on their race and sex.

Keep up the good work!

[senseandsensibility]

134. What I don't understand is the automatic dismissal of womens"

concerns by men and even some women on a supposedly progressive board. It is my least favorite part of DU.:-(