Just went to undemocratic WA state caucus

[LisaM]

This is how unfair it is: a vote that went like this -

Obama 95
Clinton 20
Uncommitted 10
Edwards 1

translates to 7 delegates for Obama, 1 for Hillary, 1 for Uncommitted.

Obama did not get 7 times as many votes as Hillary. When you see the results of our UNFAIR caucus, please be aware of this.

I also got treated to someone telling us to vote for Obama simply because people hate Clinton.

This must be why they have superdelegates, to even out this crap.

[libertee]

1. not to worry..the pendulum will swing!!!

[jlake]

2. Kick for the truth. Caucuses are not the way to go.

[NJSecularist]

3. Hillary wasn't complaining after Nevada

[jlake]

11. I complain about all cacusues. They are NOT fair. If they were, maybe JE & Biden

and others would still be in the race - and maybe the true voice of the people would ring forth, not some fucked up concocted math.

[Thrill]

14. More Clinton supporters whining. Unreal

[jlake]

Do you think caucuses are fair?

[Thrill]

30. Yes. I have no problem with them

[jlake]

34. I don't think they are and my opinion on that is not whining about Hillary.

[bigtree]

64. it certainly isn't whining

[Truth2Tell]

100. I just returned from running a caucus location

in Washington. And I promise you the delegate allocation process is as fair as anything you could devise. Sometimes the delegate count seems unfair in one direction and sometimes it seems unfair in another. But I PROMISE you that at the end of the day the number of statewide delegates matches the level of support for the candidates to within .01%.

You just don't like that Clinton got whupped. The Obama people generated a Huge turnout. There were more young people and minorities than I have EVER seen at our location. The overall turnout was double 4 years ago. The place was bursting at the seams. This can only be GOOD for our Party this next year. We need the new blood desperately.

Personally I was elected as an uncommitted delegate and will continue along the process as uncommitted as far as I can. I thought it was great day for the local Party, despite the fact that our choices have already been winnowed to lameness at the national level.

But unfair? Nope, sorry, just not what you wanted. Boo Hoo.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chascarrillo]

38. Yes.

[Beaverhausen]

39. you didn't ask but I will answer - hell no, they are not fair

first of all, how does a state expect every eligible voter to be able to gather at the same hour to "vote?"

Caucuses disenfranchise thousands of voters who can't physically attend either due to having to work at the time of the caucus, being disabled with no way to get there, being sick or having other comitments that they can't get out of (someone in Nevada I talked to when I was phone-banking there couldn't attend because of a funeral)

and yes- the math used to award the delegates is insane!

[mntleo2]

41. No because ...

...the working poor are left out because well ...they are at work at that low paying McJob that won't pay the rent and their voices is needed BADLY. A primary where all votes are equal seems better to me. But this is what we have right now and so we've got to go with the flow if we want a say. I went with friends in mind who asked me to speak for them as well and I hope I did.

Cat

[jlake]

50. Exactly. I really cannot believe that people defend them.

I oppose caucuses whether my candidate benefits from them or not - the very people who we need to hear from most are often excluded.

[beachmom]

84. Unless it benefitted Hillary. Then it would be THE way to go.

[jlake]

103. Wrong. I am not a partisan hack like you Obamabots. What's fair is fair.

I don't support caucuses because they do not provide for a democratic vote - no matter who wins.

[Kittycat]

4. How are the delegates supposed to be allocated?

ETA: they don't break down proportionately in primaries either.

If a district has 3 delegates, and they split 51/49 - the winner takes 2. If the margin is a certain distance, the winner picks up a bonus delegate

[Emit]

8. By proportion of the candidate groups to the whole, I think n/t

[LisaM]

10. They've got some weird system, but it's not democratic

It was also held in the middle of the day on a Saturday, which disenfranchises nurses, bus drivers, restaurant workers, you name it. Last time (2004) only 3% of Washington State Democrats voted, this time it might be 6%.

[Emit]

17. It's by proportion -- if the Hillary group had more supporters

she would've earned more delegates.

[sandnsea]

5. At least that's true

One of our DUers perpetuated the lie that Michelle had said she wouldn't vote for Hillary. Still, I don't support the superdelegates evening out that crap or any other. Although I'm not surprised Hillary would.

[Vincardog]

6. They have superdelegates to keep the people from nominating a candidate who will represent US

[Wombatzu]

7. the Clinton people should have locked the doors!

[littlebit]

9. I don't understand the caucus thing

why do states do it that way? It just doesn't seem like a very accurate way of voting.

[F.Gordon]

58. Cost is a factor

I believe the number I heard for Colorado was $2,000,000 to do a Primary where people get to actually vote.

A Caucus was never designed for the shit going on all over the country right now. Essentially it **WAS** a way for people very active in the party to get together... pick a candidate or two or three.. talk about grassroots activities... plan.. get organized. Shit like that.

And no.... it is not a very accurate way of voting. It's not democratic by any stretch of the imagination.

[DB1]

76. Cost not a factor in Washington State, we have mail in primary that .....

does not count for delegate selection. How crazy is that?

[F.Gordon]

92. That is insane

I.Didn't.Know.That.
:dunce:

The Washington State Legislature was the body who voted to hold a primary. The means that the Washington State Democratic Party, which chooses how delegates are decided, had no participation in the decision to hold the primary, which will cost $9 to $10 million. The Washington State Democratic Party decided to choose their delegates through the Caucuses, as it always has. As a result, your vote for a Democratic candidate in the State Primary will not count toward delegate selection.

[jasmine621]

12. Hillary hate is rampant. Unexplainable to me but widespread. nt

[surfermaw]

44. Right Wing Media and fools like Fatbaugh

Is why Hillary is hated, the right wing knew from day one that Hillary would run when Bill finished his 8 years and they started the first of Bill administration to degrade Hillary.

[sandyd921]

93. Then why so much vitriol from some on the left too?

That's what I have been puzzling about lately.

[AX10]

110. There are extremes on both sides.

[MoonRiver]

47. And yet she keeps winning and accumulating delegates!

:wow: Must be some kind of miracle! :crazy:

[RiverStone]

72. No - not Hillary hate...

We just would HATE to lose. I don't hate Hillary.

Many of us, myself included, feel a Clinton nomination = a loss in the GE.

I'd love to see her as Secretary of State of a leader in the Senate.

But Obama is far more able to pull indies and disaffected pukes his way. That = a win in the GE!

[yewberry]

13. That's weird.

How do those numbers work?

We had 105 people in my precinct. In the end, there were 2 people uncommitted, 20 Clinton supporters, and 83 Obama supporters. 2 delegates to Clinton, 8 to Obama.

Why would the delegate numbers be so off in your precinct?

[LisaM]

19. I don't know. There was a similar report in the WA forum

Similar numbers, and Obama got 7 and Hill 1.

[bicentennial_baby]

36. Simple math...

105/10 = 10.5

20/10.5= 1.9 = 2

83/10.5= 7.9 = 8

The math works out in both cases. :)

[yewberry]

45. The math in mine was easy.

The math is hers seemed a little weird.

[bicentennial_baby]

46. Other than Obama and Clinton, it doesn't make much sense, no

:shrug:

[Emit]

52. In the case of the OP, it seems that the uncommitted group would not have been

viable, if they are following caucus rules that a group must be viable in that it has to contain at least 15% of the total number of attendees. In this case, the total number of attendees is 126, and so each group should have had at least 19 people to be able to earn a delegate.

[thesubstanceofdreams]

15. Well, if Obama got 6 and Hillary 2, then

it would also be unfair because Obama got more than triple of Hillary's votes.

[bornskeptic]

107. It should be 7 to 2, which would be closer than 8 to 1. n/t

[Flabbergasted]

16. Who are you rooting for?

[bicentennial_baby]

18. Simple math...

126 votes, divided by 9 delegates, equals 14 votes per delegate.

95/14= 6.78= 7

20/14= 1.43= 1

:)

[LisaM]

25. It might be simple math but it's not proportionate

You show me how 95 is 7 times more than 20. It's not. It's not even four times twenty. I really feel marginalized here. Not to mention the low number of people who actually participate.

[Barack_America]

32. That's what happens when you start dividing...

And rounding to whole numbers.

I don't know what else to tell you. That's how delegates are determined everywhere, not just caucuses.

[apocalypsehow]

99. I have a feeling "I really feel marginalized here" = "my candidate didn't win

and I'm pissed about it."

[Barack_America]

26. Well, maybe not so simple.

;)

Thanks for pointing that out!

[VolcanoJen]

28. Math is FUNdamental!

:-) Nice!

[Exultant Democracy]

42. Didn't you know, math is sexist.

[sniffa]

54. pfft

:spray:

DUzy?

[Exultant Democracy]

60. I love your sig line.

[sniffa]

71. Thanks, and thank DS1

He made it, and gave his blessing for anyone to use it. It's starting to get some viral traction on DU.

Feel free to taste the Kool-Aid. ;)

[awaysidetraveler]

91. Thanks for clearing that up. Of course, rounding up and down will tend to balance out over WA

So LisaM's concern--quite valid--is nevertheless a little out of proportion with the real numbers.

Her vote and the votes of all caucus goers will balance closer and closer to a 1 to 1 proportion,
the more votes are counted from one district to the next.

[returnable]

97. Keep yer math and facts out of this thread.

Hope has no home here :hi:

[uppityperson]

20. Ignore pm, found other post by you

odd how the numbers compared between the 2 places, really odd.

[newmajority]

21. Unfair, my ass!

Hillary didn't have the turnout in this state. She never would have, period. There is absolutely nothing unfair about the caucus process.

[Little Star]

22. Caucuses are really about bullying people around. I'll

place my vote in private, TYVM. I also think they disenfranchise voters who may be shy or feel their vote is broadcast to their neighbors. Primaries are the only way to go.

[newmajority]

61. There was no bullying going on at all

Frankly, I expected some, given the despotic nature of the Hillbots on this board and the ones who have been calling into the radio shows. Admittedly, I got a little nervous when the PCO was wearing a Hillary sticker, but everything was done by the book.

No bullying, no real arguing. Hell, I'll even admit that the woman who spoke for Team Hillary gave a more passionate speech than the woman who spoke for Team Obama. But she didn't change anyone's mind. Most people came to the caucus knowing whether they were voting for Obama, Hillary, or uncommitted. We actually had one Kucinich supporter on the first ballot. That person switched to uncommitted, and was the only vote that changed.

All in all, a very orderly, friendly, democratic process, and no blood on the floor afterwards.

[JVS]

23. Would you prefer it be winner-take-all?

[Big Blue Marble]

67. Good one. LOL

[book_worm]

24. looks like Obama did well almost five times as many vots as Hillary

[Big Blue Marble]

27. What are you talking about.

Total Vote = 95+20+10+1 = 126 Total Delegates 7+1+1 = 9

Obama 95/126 = .75 9 x.75 = 6.75 round to 7

Clinton 20/126 = .15 9 x .15 = 1.35 round to 1

What is the problem? The math looks right to me.

[LisaM]

37. Oh please.

How did she get twice as many as uncommitted, and still get the same number of delegagates?

[Big Blue Marble]

51. She was lucky to get one.

She barely exceeded 15%.

[ozone_man]

53. Round off to the nearest whole number.

It never seems fair when it works against you. When it works for you, we never complain. :)

[Big Blue Marble]

65. Did you sleep through math class?

>.50 round up.
<.50 round down.

Live with it. It is the convention.

[ozone_man]

95. Perhaps you meant that in reply to Lisa?

:)

[Emit]

62. The thing I see in error is that, before the count even begins, the caucus leader is supposed to

find out how many people a viable group needs to have in order to be awarded a delegate. In doing so, you take the total number of attendees, 126 in your case, and multiply this times 15%. That gives you 18.9 %. Because we are dealing with people here, you can't have a fraction of a person, so you round that up to 19. The 'uncommitted' and 'Edwards' groups of 10 and 1 were not viable groups and should've been required to join with other groups -- that's called realigning. If they chose not to, then they would have to forfeit their right to cast a preference vote.

Was this ever discussed?

[Big Blue Marble]

66. Good point.

I thought they did have to commit or leave. At least that was the way I think it was in Iowa.

[Emit]

75. Yes, that's how it was in NV

Of course, we modeled our caucuses after Iowa. If they don't commit to a viable group and choose to leave, the total number of attendees doesn't change, though. So, then, in this specific case, if the groups were 95 and 20 and the total attendees was 126 and the delegates to be awarded were 7, then Hillary would've been awarded one more delegate because she had the highest fraction below .5 but closest to it (.42).

Obama: 95 X 9 / 126 = 6.78

Clinton: 20 X 9 / 126 = 1.42

[Big Blue Marble]

81. I think you struggle with math and the rules of caucuses.

It appears that you like your candidate, have a tendency to feel victimized.
Don't worry. You are not alone.

It looks like lots of your compatriots here, share that problem with you.

:eyes:

[Big Blue Marble]

85. I think you struggle with math and the rules of caucuses.

It appears that you like your candidate, have a tendency to feel victimized.
Don't worry. You are not alone.

It looks like lots of your compatriots here, share that problem with you.

:eyes:

[Colobo]

29. It seems like some Hillary supporters are whining

because things aren't going their way today...

[1gobluedem]

48. How is pointing out a process that seems flawed, 'whining?'

Can't a person point out something without being accused of being a whiner?

[Seabiscuit]

31. O.K. just had to send a shout out for the lone Edwards vote! Whoo Hoo!

:hi: Was that you?

[mntleo2]

33. WA Obama delegate here but ...

...that is simply uncool to hear something like that. The disagreements at my caucus were respectful and everyone listened carefully to all arguments. Besides that, even though I am now pro-Obama, I will vote for Hillary if she is nominated. It is a stooopid argument to not vote for her because some people hate her. Geez that is beyond the pale. I never hated her, but strongly disagreed often with her stances and votes as senator. But she is a Democrat, she does care a great deal about her issues, she is smart and she is FAR better than any Rethug out there! Hang in there Dear, I am sorry your candidate got such bad treatment.

I went uncommitted but am now an Obama delegate.

Cat

[chascarrillo]

35. You have to have 15% for viability. I think our numbers are off

No way that Uncommitteds could get a delegate with 8% support (10/126).

[Emit]

40. Looks like there needed to have been 19 in each group to be viable

.15 x 126 = 18.9

[yewberry]

70. The 15% cutoff doesn't apply here.

I think that only kicks in for the county & district caucuses--the precinct caucuses don't have that rule.

[sniffa]

43. K&R for its hilarity

And the ensuing math lessons that I'm sure are coming.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

49. proof that caucuses are insane and unreliable indcators of the GE results

[Barack_America]

55. Division of voters into delegates happens in primaries too...

Which makes this post all the more puzzling.

[cindyw]

56. 95 is 75% of total votes, 20 is 15%. Lucky she got any delegates. Sounds right.

[windbreeze]

79. it's right although I don't know how O got 7 with 95 votes

126 votes...15% gets you a delegate...and that is 18.9 votes..she had 20 votes..unless the total votes is wrong??? hmmm.. oh well, there are how many more levels to go?? county then state...so things will most likely average out at some point..wb

[DB1]

57. I think someone goofed. Did they use the delagate table provided?

[chascarrillo]

59. I think it's more appropriate to ask if the OP counted heads accurately.

Given that everything's rounded to the fives, probably not.

[DB1]

63. Its all on paper. Washington caucus you can vote and leave.

I stayed to see how a caucus works and wound up being a delegate. My 3 delegate precinct went Clinton 2 Obama 1

[chascarrillo]

68. Congrats!

I was a Legislative District delegate in 2004. Have fun - not quite as chaotic (but close!), and a great experience. Ron Sims and Jim McDermott and I think Patty Murray spoke at our district's meeting - some HS auditorium in Ravenna!

[DB1]

73. Thanks. It should be fun.

My 12 and 15 year olds went with me today and might go with me there as well. Is that allowed do you know?

[chascarrillo]

77. I apologize, I don't know.

I'd suggest contacting your LD and County party officials.

[DB1]

82. One of the Clinton delegates is experienced, he'll know.

[Cha]

69. New ways to ways whine with your

cheesy thread. If Obama weren't winning there you'd be all for it so give us your crap about "undemocratic".

[goldcanyonaz]

74. The Obama bullies really come out for Caucuses. Sickening.

[newmajority]

86. Either present evidence of "bullying"

or shut the fuck up.

[DB1]

94. No bullying at my caucus, 63 precincts, civility ruled.

[skooooo]

78. mathematical formulas don't lie

If you have questions, then you should ask to have it explained to you.

[beachmom]

80. That bizarre proportional dividing of delegates swings both ways.

Both sides have benefitted from it in various states.

[Renew Deal]

83. That's not a cuacus problem. That's a delegate calculation problem.

It has nothign to do with caucuses.

[Life Long Dem]

87. The winner of Super Tuesday evens everything out.

This is probably as close to an actual election as we will see this primary. You have 22 states across the country with both candidates going for broke to win every state.

[muriel_volestrangler]

88. Explanation from someone who ran a WA caucus

The # of votes for each candidate will then be divided by the total number of votes for that precinct to determine a percentage of votes. This percentage is then multiplied by the number of delegates allocated to determine the portion of delegates each candidate receives. Delegates are then allocated first by assigning whole delegates, then second by the highest percentages after the decimal point. Ties are determined by lot (i.e. - coin flip or other random method).

http://the-foghorn.blogspot.com/2008/01/more-info-on-washington-democratic.html

So:

Total = 126
Obama = 95/126 = 71.4% * 9 = 6.79
Clinton = 20/126 = 15.9% * 9 = 1.43
Uncommitted = 10/126 = 7.9% * 9 = 0.71
Edwards = 1/126 = 0.8% * 9 = 0.07

So, for the whole numbers:
Obama 6
Clinton 1
Uncommitted 0
Edwards 0

2 delegates left - these go to Obama (.79 remainder) and then Uncommitted (.71 remainder) . All above board, and logical. Obama 7, Clinton 1, Uncommitted 1.

[lakemonster11]

108. Thanks.

There was actually a coin flip in my precinct. Clinton won, so she got 2 delegates to Obama's 3.

[Beregond2]

89. Caucus

Yes, it's a stupid system and no, it isn't fair. On the other hand, it is more fair than the Republican primaries, where the winning candidate gets all the delegates, winner take all. If you don't like it, work to change it.

[FlyingSquirrel]

90. Good point. Also it's held on Saturday

instead of Tuesday when a lot of people are working.

[d.amber]

96. Washington State Caucus Obama Delegate here report

I'm from the 39th district that is north of Seattle..Everett and surrounding area. Here is what happened at our caucus. First I have to give it to the dedication of the people who came. Due to do little support in the organization for the party in the 39th, they combined about 4 different towns in one location far from thier homes.

Look on a map and see where Darrington, Arlington and Granite Falls are and then know that they caucused in Marysville. For the Darrington people it was an hour drive one way to get there. Up Where we use to live in Robe Valley it was a 45 minuite drive one way. But they came and came...They stood in a standing room only room and lined up out the doors through the parking lot and down the street. It should be noted that all of my representatives in the State house and Senate are Republicans. But all these Democrats came out.

We were there right before the doors opened at 12:30 and still parked down the street. We waited and waited and waited while others came in. Things were suppose to start at 1:00pm. No such luck...Lines going on and on...opened up another room trying to get them in. Finally about 2:00pm they closed the doors and tried to get us into our groups.

Sadly due to the over crowding, long wait and confusion for first time voters, many signed in and left. Only my husband and I were left for our group. There were 13 voters in all and we got 4 delegate to send onto the district convention. It broke as the state did. 10 for Obama, 3 for Hillary and the delegates went 3 Obama and 1 Clinton. Since my husband and I were the only ones left for our group, we signed up for the Obama delegates. I tried to call the Clinton supporters but got only answering machines. So I picked on of them and wrote them in for convention delegate after being assurred by one of the few 39th district dems that they would try to call them and get them to go to District. I got another Obama voter to claim the other delegate spot. At 4:00 pm, we finally got the forms done and handed in.

It was crazy and hectic and confusing but energizing to see so many Democrats there were so dedicated and it is the only way that I know of that the common voter can actually become the delegate for the canidate that they care about and go forward to district and county and State to represent the voters of their area.

It really is democracy at work and though I'ld change the location of the voting, I wouldn't change the system.

[krkaufman]

98. and superdelegates are "democratic"...???

Caucuses should be done away with.
Superdelegates should be done away with.
Instant Runoff Voting primaries should be ubiquitous across all 50 states for the Dem. party.
The 15% delegate allocation threshold could be lowered.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

102. That's Exactly Why They Have Superdelegates.

It's also exactly why I lean towards it being a really good idea that we have superdelegates, and that the party at least has some control as to who gets the nomination.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

104. You were the one edwards weren't you!!!! Kudos! nt

[Milo_Bloom]

105. No different than the electoral college

Or don't you realize you live in a representative republic.

In reality, if Obama got 95 to Clinton's 20, Obama should have gotten all 9 delegates.

Why should someone be rewarded with a Delegate, despite being wiped out in the vote?

[JBoy]

106. All the candidates know the rules going in.

Therefore it's a level playing field, therefore it's fair.

May not be democratic, but it's fair.

[AX10]

109. kick

Caucus's are not democratic at all.