More problems w/ Obama's health care plan

[OzarkDem]

Its not enough that Obama's plan is rigged for failure by combining large government subsidies to private insurance companies while not providing universal coverage.

But it also appears his plan doesn't exempt you from income taxes on the value of your employer paid health care plan. It also offers little to encourage your employer to cover you

1. Premium Subsidies To Employers

Clinton Plan -

* Refundable small business tax credit to provide an incentive to offer employee coverage. (High-income small businesses would not qualify.)

* A “retiree health legacy initiative” would provide qualifying public and private sector employers offering retiree health plans with a tax credit to offset catastrophic health expenditures, “as long as savings are dedicated to workers and competitiveness.”

Obama Plan -

Federal subsidies would partially reimburse employers for their catastrophic health care costs if the employers guaranteed that premium savings would be used to reduce employee premiums.

(Obama's plan does nothing to help small businesses cover employees and only helps with "catastrophic health care costs" , meaning employers will still be subject to increases in private insurance premiums)


Tax Changes Related to Health Insurance

Clinton -

* Employer-provided health premiums would continue to be excluded from income taxes except for “the high-end portion of very generous plans for those making over $250,000.”

Obama -

* No provision

http://www.health08.org/sidebyside_results.cfm?c=11&c=16

New health care plans for employers will require these issues be addressed. Under Obama's plan, your employer won't get much help in providing you with insurance and when they do, your insurance plan will be considered taxable income.

[DesEtoiles]

1. Sour grapes.

[OzarkDem]

2. Obama's plan has a lot of gaps

is health care reform not important to you?

[rodeodance]

50. Want to discuss the ISSUE--or just drop in with Poop!

[Evergreen Emerald]

60. what a scary response. You don't care about the issue?

rather you just repeat the phrase "yes we can." Are you arms out in front of you in zombie-like fashion? ARe your eyes spinning?

[OzarkDem]

3. Kick

[Hieronymus]

4. Obama said tonight that he will cover everyone without forcing ......

people who can't afford it to buy insurance.

[OzarkDem]

5. He didn't tell you he'll tax you on the value of that plan

If that is his statement, he's not telling the truth.

How will he cover everyone if they don't buy health insurance under his plan?

Take some time to read his plan instead of listening to what he says, there are big gaps between the two. You are smarter than that aren't you?

Obama has real problems with the truth.

[Hieronymus]

23. How else would you suggest covering poor people, except by taxation? ...

It would come from reversing the tax cut for those over $200,000. income .. same as Edwards. I'm smart enough to see that.

[rodeodance]

25. So--he is copying Hillary's plan now?

[Hieronymus]

27. Hillary copied Edwards' plan.

[OzarkDem]

31. No, he's apparently lying about his own

something he has a disturbing habit of doing.

[rodeodance]

43. Obama will do anything to win

[creeksneakers2]

51. When Obama's people get cornered on the details

they admit they might have to force people too.

[bowens43]

6. blah blah blah blah

You better hope it works, Obama is going to be the next President of the United States.

[OzarkDem]

9. No he isn't

and if by some luck he is, you will be very unhappy when his health care plan disintegrates.

Get serious folks, these are real problems facing our coutnry, they need more than mindless cheerleading and drinking GOP kool aid.

[John Q. Citizen]

7. Oh come off it. His plan and Hill's plan are both rotten. We gotta get to Obama

when he's President and convince him to do a single payer system.

With Obama, who knows, he's got a back ground in community organizing, maybe he'd listen to some community organizers.

On the other hand, with Hillary, we know she will never ever cut out the private insurers. And she couldn't even if she wanted to because she just can't move large numbers of people to act like Obama can. Yes he can- maybe.

So I have to go with the odds and say I could care less how incrementally better or worse the hillary plan is. It will only get worse than it was the day she proposed it after her enemies get through with her. With Obama, who knows? Maybe we could do something different and make it a whole lot better than the day he proposed his, if he is willing to work with us.

[OzarkDem]

8. Clinton's plan is like Edwards - a good one

Obama's plan is full of holes.

Sorry, but I'm not going to let fools like Obama supporters give us 4 more years of a health care crisis.

[Tellurian]

10. It's all going to come down to the delages..

All this caucus BS is meaningless..

[OzarkDem]

11. But even the delegates need to be informed

Sorry, but this issue is to important to let Dems screw it up again. We may never recover if we don't get it right this time.

[Tellurian]

13. here is some new info

from one of our blogs..

Hello everyone,

I want to emphasize again. The states that would determine this nomination are OHIO, TEXAS, and PENNSYLVANIA. Hillary has very good chance of winning all three. The other states that are voting now will not determine this nomination. Caucuses are difficult to win for Hillary for the reasons I mentioned in an earlier post. MICHIGAN has allocated 73 delegates to Hillary and Hillary will also be allocated a lion’s share of the delegates from FLORIDA. In our own tally, we have to add these delegates to Hillary’s total.

No one, no one, expects Hillary to win the states today or on Tuesday. Why? Because Maryland, Virginia, and Louisiana have significant AA population voting in the Democratic primary that is going 80% for Obama. The others are caucus states. Hillary will win enough delegates in these states to stay in the lead, overall. I don’t care what momentum Obama gets out of these wins based on media coverage. It won’t affect Ohio and Texas. Obama got 10 days of absolutely one-sided positive coverage before Feb 5. Yet, he lost every big state except his own state of Illinois. In fact, I expect media coverage to start turning negative and it has already begun. NY Times, Newsweek etc have articles talking about why all the energy of his rallies do not translate to votes and how his self-referential campaign (it is all about Obama) is beginning to sound creepy.

The Hillary campiagn has managed expectations well. Yes, going into March 4 contests, the pressure will be on Hillary. What is new? The pressure has been on Hillary since Iowa. There is nothing new. The demographics of Ohio, Texas, and Pennsylvania favor Hillary. Overall, given how this nominating process was set up by Donna Brazille and DNC to favor Obama and hurt Clinton, I have to say that she has done very well. In spite of the best efforts of the media to bury her after Iowa, she is still standing, she is still leading in delegates and in the popular vote. Thanks to all of us she also has the money now to be competitive.

Instead of constantly wringing our hand here, let us donate money, let us encourage our friends to donate money, let us email media outlets and express our outrage at the bias against Hillary and do all we can to elect Hillary to be our next president.

[OzarkDem]

17. We have to talk health care

its one of the most important issues, and a strength for Clinton.

[rodeodance]

56. agree--but canvasing will help --as volunteers can talk of health care etc

[rodeodance]

54. thanks

[John Q. Citizen]

42. All three plans include government susidies for private insurance companies. Thst' wrong!

We need a tax supported single payer system that provides universal access. We can do this. I mean why not? It's our country too.

[Hieronymus]

62. Hillary's plan is copied from Edwards' plan but, unfortunately, includes ....

the private insurers. As Edwards said, "If you invite them to sit down at the table, they'll eat all the food".

[Nexus7]

16. Geez, what nonsense!

Per the OP, Obama's plan is worse than Clinton's. And your response is to say that maybe he can be persuaded to change it; but Clinton will never change hers. And will "never cut out private insurers."

Put down the hookah pipe and write some sense!

[WA98296]

12. Obama or Clinton will sign the Kennedy plan that gets through Congress

[OzarkDem]

14. There's no "Kennedy Plan"

Sorry, what are you smoking?

[Tellurian]

15. OD read here for info on what has been hidden from public view..

This is what Repubs will use against Obama if he is the nominee... besides Rezko


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4497225#4498408

and another info tidbit:

Hillary's donations in 2 days tally in at $10,000,000 + and counting..

and 100,000 new DONORS!!

[OzarkDem]

19. I've donated

and I'm glad she's conserving her funds for Ohio, TX and PA. I wish she would dump Terry Mac and the Carville/Begala crew.

[Tellurian]

22. Know this... there is a plan in play..

they have discounted the caucus states for obvious reasons and have their plans set for Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Texas. This primary is far from over by a long shot..

Thanks for the donation... I'm emailing another one tonight... She did great!

[Cameron27]

58. I agree with you Tell,

they knew this round was going to be bad, and have planned around it. (I'ts still depressing though) I sent in another donation last night too.

[karynnj]

18. There will be - who do you think will write the legislation?

Kennedy has been the chair of that committee for decades. He will work with the committee and create a plan that will pass the Senate and a similar plan will be done in the House.

It is very likely that HRC will NOT have mandates in the first plan she is sent if she is President - if putting them in makes it DOA. Or, Obama will get one with them if not having them, make it DOA.

[OzarkDem]

21. That Kennedy is good on health care is a myth

I lobby his committe and he's way past his prime. He hasn't done crap. His staff talks only of appeasing the GOP. If people really knew how he operates behind the scenes they wouldn't trust him to do health care reform.

No way in hell I want Kennedy to write a plan.

[MH1]

45. You lobby his committee - for what organization?

Disclosure, please. Apologies if you stated it elsewhere and I missed it.

I suggest you put it in your o.p.'s when you post on a topic related to your lobbying.

[OzarkDem]

49. I lobby as an individual member of a grassroots group

I do so as a volunteer, not as a paid lobbyist.

[karynnj]

63. What exactly has HRC done - as she is on that committee?

The only thing I hear her take credit for is KENNEDY's and HATCH's S-CHIP - that had roots in a Kerry/Kennedy bill. If President Clinton were a good Democrat, her role, getting him on board, would not have been necessary.

[Tellurian]

20. Obama supporters behavior called "creepy"

Media figures call Obama supporters' behavior "creepy," compare them to Hare Krishna and Manson followers

http://mediamatters.org/items/200802080014?f=h_latest

[OzarkDem]

24. Obama is exploiting them

Lying about his policy agenda, lying about his background, etc.


It will catch up to him, the GOP will be happy to point it out for him when they're ready.

[rodeodance]

26. as someone said last night--they will to be DE-programmed.

[Tellurian]

29. Here is Bid Dog in VA today..

Here is Bill Clinton in Abingdon, VA today.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJyAtyr60oM

[rodeodance]

39. thanks

[Tellurian]

30. Another story coming over the wires is Obama is selling his

UN-Univeral Health Care Plan as Universal. He's saying he will offer it by the end of his second term..

Also this:

From Politico, Ben Smith:

“these caucuses really aren’t tests of a candidate’s broader appeal. Total turnout in Nebraska, with 99.7% of precincts reporting, is just under 26,000. Which is a big turnout for the Nebraska caucuses, but not actually a lot of people.”

From Marc Ambinder:

“There is something to be said about a caucus. It is small, undemocratic series of gathering where the loudest voices often prevail.”

It is unbelievable to me that so many of these states uses caucuses. It is mind boggling that WA state even though has a primary on Feb 19, chooses to apportion delegates based on the caucus.

[OzarkDem]

33. Obama's plan is not Universal

saying it doesn't make it so

[rodeodance]

38. There were a few on DU bragging about his "univ" health plan tonight!

[Tellurian]

32. Hell, Hillary will point it out to him at the next debate..

and watch the weasel try weaseling his way around his own words..

[Viking12]

28. So you take your marching orders from David Brooks

Your posts make me :puke: I don't think I've ever seen a more hateful person on DU. Your only the second person to make my ignore list. If you think your attacks are helping Hillary, you're wrong.

[OzarkDem]

34. Health care reform may not be important to you

but it is to most people. I don't read David Brooks or anyone else, I read the policy statements. Obama has and inferior plan and no good explanation for it. He's now even lying about it calling it universal.

If Obama wants to get credit for a good health care plan, he should produce one instead of lying about the one he has.

[Viking12]

35. Yawn.

SSDD

http://robertreich.blogspot.com/2007/12/why-is-hrc-stooping-so-low.html

[Tellurian]

36. We're all vaklempt over Robert Reich...ha!

[xchrom]

37. recommend -- not because i support mrs clinton but because there are problems with that

healthcare plan.

[OzarkDem]

40. Especially disturbing that he's calling it Universal

its not. He has a lot to explain about this plan.

[rodeodance]

44. That is he new tactic you know--call it Universal even if it not.

[Tellurian]

41. So far, with all the Obama wins tonight, Hillary del: 1100...BO 1039

not a very good night for Obama..

[ProSense]

46. Pledged delegates: RCP - Obama 969, Hillary 910; CNN- Obama 908, Clinton 877. n/t

[ProSense]

47. Hillary's plan to go after peoples wages as part of her mandates is

bogus.

Obama has the best plan.

[OzarkDem]

48. Obama's plan will tax individuals on their employee paid health insurance

Most people in the US have health insurance through their employers. Clinton's plan exempts employees earning under $250,000 from paying income tax on the value of their health insurance. Obama's plan doesn't. Since Obama's plan is voluntary, the tax on health insurance is another disincentive for individuals to enroll in a health care plan.

Any health care plan that leaves people without health insurance is a big burden on making health care reform work.

[ProSense]

55. Hillary's claim about mandates

is bogus.

[OzarkDem]

61. Wow, Obama is lying about health care reform

Both Clinton's plan (and perhaps his, details are fuzzy) provide for expansion of Medicaid and SCHIP for people who can't afford health insurance.

Period. No one who can't afford health insurance will be forced to buy it. They will be covered under Medicaid or SCHIP.

Why is Obama lying about these things? Why is he using GOP style demagoguery and fear mongering to trash meaningful healt h care reform, including his own plan?

Most people currently get their health insurance through their employer. Clinton's plan provides incentives to help more small business buy plans for their employees. It also exempts employees from being taxed on the value of their plan. Obama's plan does not - employees will be taxed.

http://www.health08.org/sidebyside_results.cfm?c=11&c=16

[rodeodance]

52. Good plan. Why should I or anyone end up paying for people who refuse

to buy into insurance!

[superduperfarleft]

53. Your interpretation of this list is seriously flawed.

Federal subsidies would partially reimburse employers for their catastrophic health care costs if the employers guaranteed that premium savings would be used to reduce employee premiums.

(Obama's plan does nothing to help small businesses cover employees and only helps with "catastrophic health care costs" , meaning employers will still be subject to increases in private insurance premiums)

While this passage is so vague that I can't figure out what TYPE of health insurance plan it's talking about, it could be two things: (1)fully-insured plans with claims funded by the insurance company, where employers offer plans with more cost-sharing provisions (higher deductibles, copays, etc.) where the employee is somehow reimbursed for any catastrophic claims under the plan (not sure where reimbursing employers comes into this) but these particular plans can only be offered if it results in substantial premium savings to the employees, or (2) fully- or partially self-funded plans where the employer reimburses claims, and will be reimbursed from the federal government for catastrophic claims (which most of these types of plans have anyway, since they will often purchase stop-loss coverage for this purpose).

Under Obama's plan, your employer won't get much help in providing you with insurance and when they do, your insurance plan will be considered taxable income.

That's not what "no provision" would mean. No provision simply means no change in existing tax law, which currently states that (for medical insurance) the plan is not taxable income and the premiums are paid pre-tax.

And it's sort of funny in a sad way to watch the Hillary people argue with the Obama people over the minutiae of two plans which are BOTH flawed and will not have that much of an impact on the problems of health insurance in this country. Short of full single-payer health insurance provided to all citizens (which only Kucinich proposed), insurance companies will continue operating they way they already have.

[calmblueocean]

57. Yup.

I wrote a long piece on the same subject here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4384292

Both plans are basically "band-aids" covering up what's wrong in America. A band-aid is better than nothing, but let's not get high and mighty over which candidate has the one with the prettiest color.

[Cameron27]

59. K&R