Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

I am so torn....

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:54 AM
Original message
I am so torn....
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 03:54 AM by WCGreen
I really liked Edwards and then the bottom fell out of his campaign...

Now, the pros and cons of both candidates are many...

I honestly can't say who I will vote for come March 4th...

I was leaning toward Obama, willing to take a chance...

But then Clinton started to sound more and more like a true dem...

I don't know...

This whole thing about Obama not being ready is starting to wear as thin as saying Clinton is in the pocket of the DLC...

There really isn't that much different between the behind the scene backers of the two left stading...

For instance, they both have taken more than a quarter of a million in contributions from people who work for or own Goldman Sachs...

Can you say bundle me a bundle baby...

Sigh....

Maybe it's because I am so use to the campaign being over by the time Ohioans get to vote that I was being a little lazy on the issues...

Obama has a lot going for him and the political and policy people he has around him make me feel better...

And the way he handled the press on his plane the day that Mitt dropped made me think that yea, he could be the guy...

The Hallmark fiasco just kind of nudged be away from HRC...

Still, even though he triangulated his way through his presidency, I miss Bill...

But Hillary is no Bill and that's good and bad...


This is starting to remind me a little bit of the 1980 primary race...

Clinton is Carter and Obama is Kennedy...

I was at a statewide fundraiser in early 1980 for the Ohio Democratic Party...

They had an ice sculpture over the empty ice bowl of shrimp (The GOP Shrimp bowl is always filled)...

As Jody Powell started into his keynote speech, the left front leg of the sculpture collapsed and the donkey came crashing down...

It kind of summarized everything for me...

The good news is the Ohio democratic party is in much better shape...

The better news is John McCain is no Ronnie Rayguns...

The bad news is we could have a fractured party on our hands...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 04:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. The policy people Obama has around him make you feel better?
Zbigniew Brzezinski, Mark Brzezinski, Susan Rice, Richard Clarke, and Dennis Ross -- Obama's foreign policy advisers -- all scare the hell out of me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I find them quite competent.
Zbig served under Carter. Richard Clarke, Mark Brzezinski, Susan Rice and Dennis Ross served under Clinton.

Please describe why these people "scare the hell out of you?"

And did they have the same affect on your emotional state when they were working for Clinton and Carter?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. In short, because they're big-time hawks.
But, if you insist, the specifics that scare the hell out of me:

ZB was Mister "Let's arm the Afghan mujahedin {sp?}, and kick Soviet ass!"

Sonny Mark is quite the enigma to me -- and therein lies the problem. He appears to share ZB's Cold War paranoia, and was deeply involved in the Ukraine "orange revolution," which, in my understanding, has less to do with empowering the people of Ukraine than delivering another fuck-you to Russia.

Susan Rice? A little over a year ago, she suggested bombing Sudan as a "solution" to ending the Sudanese genocide. Oh, ya, we know how those "strategic targets" usually work out, don't we?

Richard Clarke: Partially redeemed by his guilty-conscience (or was it out-for-vengeance?) book, but I'd really prefer not to have Dubya's ex-Terra Czar advising the potential next Prez, thanks.

Ross served under Poppy Bush before Clinton had him. He helped put together the Oslo (II) Accords -- which have, so far, been a resounding failure -- but that's not even my biggest problem with him: He's an integral part of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, yet another AIPAC-fronted think tank.

Honest answer to your question: When they were working for Clinton and/or Carter, I wasn't politically aware enough to be afraid of them.

As their names have popped up again and again in my voracious reading (start with PNAC and the CNP and work from there, and you too will become obsessed with making all the connections), I've grown smarter -- and definitely more afraid.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Thank you for your thoughtful response.
Of course it is highly advisable that Obama have the best international advisers available.

My respect for Zbig has grown over the years. I was not impressed with his Carter term of service.
One can argue in hindsight the wisdom of arming the mujahedin. It did look different when
the Russians invaded.

I am no fan of Dennis Ross. I felt his favoritism towards Israel was a barrier to peace with
the Palestinians. So it does not please me to hear he is on the team.

I know little about Susan Rice. She is reported to have a high level of competency.

I am impressed by Richard Clarke. He really wasn't the Terra Czar for Bush for long. He is mostly remembered in the Bush
Administration as the guy nobody would listen too, who subsequently got chased out of the Whitehouse.

I appreciate your concerns. I share them to some extent. Both Hillary and Obama are far more hawkish
than I would prefer.

I did find this of interest in a recent Steve Clements blog (He seems to somewhat favor Hillary
due to her levels of government expertise.):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-clemons/where-some-of-the-serious_b_83851.html

Sorry about the awful Romney picture.

He references the opinion of a national security analysis who feels that Obama would be the better.

Take a look and let me know what you think.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BanzaiBonnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I did not know Richard Clarke was in the Obama camp
That makes me feel better. I have utmost respect for Clarke. I saw him speak last year and was very impressed. He has a level head and a big picture understanding of the Middle East and IMO, he's no war hawk.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Thank you for the verification.
I too think he is an asset to the Obama team.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Well, I certainly can't go up against...
...an unnamed "national security expert," but my take, as one who devours this stuff, and as a voter, is pretty much 180 degrees, as you can guess.

Plainly put, I don't get the reassurance at all that Obama listens -- at least not to anyone other than his own advisers. Don't flame me for making this comparison, as I'm not saying Obama is a madman like Bush, but I get the same vibe of "stay the course" stubbornness from Obama as I do from Bush, as well as the same "I don't pay attention to focus groups" tunnel vision. Yep, a lot of that feeling comes from Obama's dead-set determination not to listen to us gay folks (and certainly not to our biggest and most powerful lobbying group in Washington, the Human Rights Campaign) about the damage of allowing Donnie McClurkin to run amok onstage in South Carolina.

And before anyone jumps me for being a "one-issue voter" or a "take my ball and go home" whiner, let me make something very clear: I did a lot of soul-searching during and after the McClurkin business. I forced myself to ask if I really was just reacting on a solely emotional level, letting my heart lead my head. While I'm certainly angry, I finally realized two things: 1) Had it not been for the McClurkin issue, I most likely would not have taken such a critical look at the rest of Obama's policies (what I can find of them; honestly, I do not see any solid, step-by-step, workable plans I can believe in) on their own merit, and 2) that Obama's hamfisted dealing (or not dealing) with the McClurkin mess was only symptomatic of what I perceive as Obama's general bullheadedness, and -- yes -- arrogance.

Symptomatic, how? Most glaringly: Obama wants to "reach out" -- but his lame handling of the McClurkin issue is a clear signal to me that he's quite selective about who he wants to reach out to. All his nice talk about overcoming homophobia means nothing to me when his actions, no matter how indirectly, no matter how passively, no matter how un-deliberately, serve in the end only to promote homophobia.

I'm being very generous in suggesting the McClurkin deal wasn't deliberate on Obama's part; I do believe it was a deliberate message to Southern religious homophobes that he's on their side, and he's not going to let those horrible, sinful, child-molesting homosexuals tell him what to do.

At the same time, I am not saying Obama is a homophobe -- I am saying that Obama knowingly and willingly used homophobia to his advantage.

As for the other main point of the op/ed:

"Hillary Clinton too, this person said, brings a group of retainers and pols who think they've done it all before -- and don't understand that tomorrow's challenges are more serious and more complex than any of us have perhaps seen in our lifetimes."

What is this guy smoking? It's Obama who doesn't "understand that tomorrow's challenges are more serious and more complex than any of us have perhaps seen in our lifetimes." His empty "hope and change" mantra is evidence of that.

See, I want "a group of retainers and pols" who have done it all before. Forging ahead into the future without a roadmap may seem like a grand adventure to some, but what seems to be lost on many is the fact that the next president, whoever it is, is not going to be able to put his or her own New Deal, or Great Society, into play right off the bat. He or she is going to be spending at least the first term (and probably two terms) cleaning up after Bush. We are so many steps back right now, real progress is going to be "backfill" for a long, long time. Undoing all the damage of the previous eight years (if that is even possible) is going to take generations. Anyone who thinks life is going to be one great, big love-in -- or even easier than it is now -- within the next five, ten years, is naive at best. Deluded is more like it.

You watch and see: If Obama makes it to the White House, his supporters ar going to be most disappointed by his inability to move forward on any great vision of a future America, because he (and Congress) will be sweeping up the Bush debris. It may be progress, but it won't look like it, it won't feel like it, and it won't bring us all into that big Kumbaya circle as fast as we'd all like to be there.

And here is where Hillary's experience, and Obama's inexperience, come into play for me. I want the one who knows the ropes and has the connections to bring us up to at least the point where we were before BushCo dismantled everything. There is far too much at stake to take a gamble on somebody who hasn't been in the thick of it for longer than -- well, since Obama was a schoolboy.

Obama may think he can "reach out" until the whole world is moving together in perfect harmony like one big Mobius strip -- but as nice as that idealism is, it is painfully (and dangerously) unrealistic and naive. Hillary, on the other hand, is going to "reach out" too -- but with Hillary, that's going to mean a lot of arm-twisting of the thugs she knows, and has fought tooth and nail, for decades.

You know, I still enjoy "The Brady Bunch" -- everyone's happy, and clean, and conflict can be solved by building a house of cards or singing a song. But I enjoy it because it's fantasy -- and I wouldn't rely on Mike's seemingly Zen-like but ultimately meaningless homespun wisdom to get me out of any real-life jams. The delusion that playing nicey-nice is what got us into this mess in the first place: It got us Bush.

I want somebody who can get down and dirty on the BushCo thugs and talk to them in a way they understand. I want somebody who's willing to bust heads. Figuratively speaking, of course.

In other words: We don't need the Bradys -- we need The Sopranos.

One last thing:

"According to this policy intellectual, Hillary Clinton's experience led her to affirm the Kyl/Lieberman IRGC amendment, which could have very well been a loophole for another war."

Cheap shot. The writer condemns Hillary for her Kyl-Lieberman vote -- a vote Obama didn't even show up for. (Obama can say he would have voted for this or against that 'til the cows come home, but I can say I would have stopped the REAL ID Act by voting against the troop-funding bill it was attached to -- but you'll never really know, because I never had to make that decision. I can say I would have voted for Adlai Stevenson -- but you'll never really know, because I wasn't born yet. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. they don't scare me - and they are all well thought of.
I don't understand. I like that Volkert supports obama, too. Don't know if he will be advising him. But I don't think low interest rates and high inflation have served us well. Maybe we need to go through the pain we did way back when.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
6. Hillary is better than Bill...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. I too respect the policy people Obama has...
A lot of smart folks, there...

And that story!

A little forshadowing, perhaps? It's funny now, in retrospect...

Back then, not so much...


I don't think we Dems will be fractured as we go forward...

The stakes are too damn high, and we know it...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Peggy I hope you are right, I feel we're running down a dark tunnel
things could go very badly if the person who is the nominee doesn't win both the popular and delegate vote.

It will be a freakin nightmare!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
12. My focus is downticket. Let me explain my reason on that:
I have a career (R) in the House. We are running an unknown Dem to unseat him this year.

There is a lot of motivation and excitement behind Senator Obama -- which I believe will get out the youth vote in November.

I don't see that kind of excitement surrounding Senator Clinton. Her base is older, more mature and more reliable -- but while they vote (D) on everything else, they have kept this clod in his seat for WAY too many years now.

I don't see Obama's support moving en masse to Clinton. In fact, if somehow she pulls it off, I think we are in for an amazing return of apathy and "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". Political hacks like us know the difference, but there is a reason the poll turnouts have been so huge. When have we ever seen people so motivated and involved? It isn't because of the generic (D).

I believe that Obama has the coattails that Clinton doesn't and no matter their *slight* policy differences, if we unseat a bunch of Reps and Senators, the landscape changes dramatically, the party moves to the left, and progressive legislation that once seemed a pipe dream becomes reality. Nuanced or "balanced" policies need not apply in that case.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 01st 2024, 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC