How do you get health insurance today?

[OzarkDem]

To have a good, honest debate about the merits of Clinton's health care reform plan vs. Obama's let's first begin with how everyone currently receives health insurance, if they do.

For those of you who receive health insurance from your employer and earn less than $250,000 yr, are you willing to pay income tax on the value of that employer provided insurance plan?

Current law allows exempts employees who earn less than $250,000 yr from paying income tax on the value of their health plan

Clinton's plan will continue that exemption; Obama's does not, IOW, you will pay income tax on your employer paid insurance plan under Obama's proposal.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

1. Why is their no option for people who Don't have insurance? nt

[OzarkDem]

5. Interrupted by yakking children, fixed it

With 4 teenagers in the house most days, it gets crazy around here.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

7. lol, whoah, I understand! but you should have different options for the uninsured, like

uninsured because they can't afford it or

uninsured because they choose not to buy it

[OzarkDem]

9. Ok.

But lets be honest, and not artificially weight the results to favor one candidate's talking point.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

11. thanks! but it's too late for me anyway, I voted too soon! But as a Hillary supporter I would've

chosen uninsured because I can't afford it. Despite the mandate question, I do think she'll make it affordable

[Hill_YesWeWill]

13. lol, ok nevermind, I spoke too soon, my vote lines up right, nt

[OzarkDem]

16. Or free

Both Clinton and Obama promise to expand Medicaid to cover low income adults. Under neither plan is anyone going to have to buy health insurance they can't afford.

[blogslut]

32. Define "can't" afford?

How big a chunk is affordable?

FYI - I am self employed, uninsured and I sure as hell don't want the government to force me to buy insurance. If they want to take money out of my self-payed payroll taxes, that's fine. If they expect me to pay some insurance company the right to deny my claim the moment I get sick, then forget it.

[OzarkDem]

38. You can buy govt insurance

Neither plan requires you to buy from a private insurance company. Both offer options to buy government insurance (like Medicare).

Both also provide either expansion of Medicaid for low income adults, or tax subsidies to help buy insurance. My guess is Medicaid would be expanded to cover people at least up to 200% or 250% of FPL.


Clinton's plan has a cap on insurance premiums as percentage of income. Obama's doesn't.

Obama's plan isn't sustainable for the long term and will eventually collapse due to the high cost of not enrolling the uninsured until they get sick.

http://www.health08.org/sidebyside_results.cfm?c=11&c=16

[blogslut]

40. meh

You lost me on the last two paragraphs.

I'm reading Obama's plan right now. It looks good. Imagine, someone that understands that mental health care is part of the health care crisis! Neat!

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/Obama08_HealthcareFAQ.pdf

[OzarkDem]

45. Put your own interests first, not Obama's

You are more important than he is.

Compare the plans side by side and support the one that takes care of you.

http://www.health08.org/sidebyside_results.cfm?c=11&c=16

Obama's plan is weak and has a fatal flaw that will cause it to collapse within a year or so. You can't put large numbers of sick, uninsured people into the health care system and expect it to survive. It can't now, it won't under Obama's plan either.

[blogslut]

52. I'm fully aware of this "fatal" flaw

I am the fatal flaw. I am the one that's gone without insurance because I can't afford it. I don't appreciate people telling me that because I have managed to avoid getting critically ill, I am somehow "gaming the system". When I have a minor health issue, I pay out of my pocket. I sure as hell have no intention of supporting a program that doesn't understand that a monthly cost of $300.00-$600.00 is not an option.

Look, I'm not thrilled with either candidate's health care plan if you want to know the truth. I want the health insurance industry to disappear. I want government-provided, fully-funded health care - paid by my taxes. But I'm not getting that this time around. So, I'll stick with my candidate, thank you.

[OzarkDem]

56. Then vote for Clinton

Her plan is the one most likely to still be around in 5 or 10 years to continue offering you affordable care.

Obama's plan is designed to self -destruct in about 1 or 2 years.

You're without health insurance, what is it about Obama's plan that is better for you?

[blogslut]

58. I'm not forced into it

I'll stick with my candidate, as I said.

Now, go tell the rest of the nation about Hillary's mandated plan and see how well it plays.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

36. Yes I completely agree! This push by both sides to try to make Obama or Hill.s

health plans look like they are putting the poor at a disadvantage are all disingenuous, they both will provide for the uninsured who can't afford health care

[Bluerthanblue]

2. I don't- can't get any for me- my youngest is on SCHIP-

[OzarkDem]

8. You're typical of a lot of uninsured

Under Clinton or Obama's plan (not sure about the latter) you will probably be covered by Medicaid. I'm making that assumption because your child is on SCHIP.

Clinton and Obama plans call for expanding Medicaid eligibility for low income people. Clinton's plan is specific in that it fixes the gap for low income adults w/ no dependent children. Obama's isn't specific on that issue.

[Bluerthanblue]

26. I could get medicaid now, if I let the state put a lien on our house,

but my health isn't good, and I want to leave my intrest in this house to my kids-it's a run down old farmhouse, but it's our home, and all I have to leave them. I'm a single mom, and pretty much all they've got left for family-

I don't expect things to change much regardless of who is elected. I'm more concerned with their having a chance to make a living, and have hope for a future.

peace~

[OzarkDem]

30. I think it will change, we just have to be careful choosing who can get it done

That's also why I have concerns about Obama as a candidate. Not only is his plan unsustainable because of the large number of people who can opt out of the system until they get sick, his public discussion is pushing a lot of GOP fear mongering about health care reform in general.

[Neshanic]

25. Why can't you get any? They will not insure you for their reasons?

[OzarkDem]

27. States have different guidelines

In many states, they only allow coverage for children, not parents.

[Bluerthanblue]

33. as far as I know, the only adults on allowed on anything like SCHIP

are those who are pregnant- and the coverage lasts till the birth of the child. I think this is a good thing, because the benefit of pre-natal care can't be ignored- And statistically, it's been shown that paying the $ for good care pre birth, is a very good bargan by reducing many health problems that would have occured without preventative care.

peace~

[Bluerthanblue]

28. pre-existing conditions- there are many of us. eom

[Neshanic]

34. That's me. I do not want to think about when my COBRA ends. Nobody will insure me now.

[Mz Pip]

3. As part of my retirement package

from my former employer.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[no name no slogan]

4. I steal it

[Sir Jeffrey]

6. Jesus is my health insurance

http://store.theonion.com/jesus-is-my-health-insurance-p-122.html

[newmajority]

21. Is that the Huckabee health plan?

I believe that Jesus did heal people, but since I haven't seen Him walking around here lately, it's probably not best to count on a Holy House Call.

[Sir Jeffrey]

53. Jesus offers the cheapest health plan for my budget nt

[TomInTib]

10. Buy Lottery tickets

and hope that nothing bad happens to me before I hit it big.

[Mojorabbit]

12. You need to add

can afford but noninsurable due to pre existing condition

[OzarkDem]

14. Excellent! An huge issue

BTW, both candidates plan to address the issue, again Clinton is a little clearer and stronger on how she would do it.

[BooScout]

15. None of the above......

I live in the UK.......it's provided to everyone here.

[OzarkDem]

20. Lucky YOU!! A question

Is England's system voluntary - where people can choose not to participate or pay into the system until they get sick or injured?

[BooScout]

48. Well ....I'm in Wales........not England.......

but the same principal applies. No it's not voluntary. Everyone pays into the NHS.

[bunnies]

17. cant afford & have a pre-existing condition. nt

[Neshanic]

18. Maybe you should add COBRA. Considering people being laid off and all.

[OzarkDem]

22. OK

[Colobo]

19. Uninsured, thanks.

[Blue_In_AK]

23. We are covered through my husband's pension

for which we pay $600 a month.

[OzarkDem]

24. That's high

Is it a large percentage of your annual income?

[Blue_In_AK]

41. It's about 18% of his pension amount

(he was a marine engineer for 25 years, so got a pretty decent retirement package). I'm still working at home making about $18,000 a year or so, and we have a rental unit, but we usually take a loss on it since I pay utilities and there's always upkeep.

When we turn 65 we'll probably turn to Medicare and AARP supplemental and keep the $600 a month in our pockets. We're never sick and there's always the deductibles and stuff to meet, so we really don't get much benefit.

[Broken_Hero]

29. I picked Govt. Program, My wife and I are covered

under IHS, aka Indian Health Services....

[OzarkDem]

31. Is it a good plan?

Does it cover a lot with low cost?

[Broken_Hero]

37. No cost to us, except in the tax money that we pay

to the fed govt. It covers almost everything, there are only a few exceptions, like fertility(which is different from one IHS facility to another)....

This should be able to explain IHS a little bit better/clearer than I can...

http://www.ihs.gov/

To me, its similiar to the VA Hospital system...It is, in my view socialized medicine, and my main basic gripe is underfunding, location/number of IHS facilities, and I believe all IHS facilities should have/carry Contract Health programs.

[superduperfarleft]

35. You're being incredibly disingenuous.

Currently, the actual receipt of health benefits is not taxed. Neither Obama's or Hillary's plans will change this.

You either missed my response in your other thread, or chose to ignore it, but I think you have a really flawed understanding of how health insurance works, and how either plan will impact both the industry and the currently-insured or uninsured.

[OzarkDem]

39. Check again, get your facts straight

Current law: Employer provided health insurance is currently excluded from income tax up for incomes up to $250,000 yr.

Clinton's plan carries this protection over into her own new plan.

Obama's does not. That's a problem.

http://www.health08.org/sidebyside_results.cfm?c=11&c=16

[superduperfarleft]

42. It says "no provision."

Unless it specifically states that it's repealing the current law, any reasonable person would assume that it will remain unchanged.

Back when the Kaiser chart included Edwards, Gravel, and Kucinich, their plans also said "no provision" under that category. I see you have an Edwards avatar, would you assume that he was also intending to start taxing the actual receipt of benefits?

[OzarkDem]

46. Exactly

He needs to answer that question, and until he does, its another flaw, like several others in his plan.

[superduperfarleft]

57. You're really reaching.

If he was going to change current law, he'd state that. If he was going to keep it the same, why mention it?

In fact, I may be remembering wrong, but ALL medical insurance premiums can be made tax-free and no one is currently taxed on medical benefits received regardless of income or level of benefits, so if anything, Hillary's the only one proposing a change to that system.

There's plenty of both plans that I have problems with without having to create a non-issue by misinterpreting (intentionally or otherwise) a minor part of them.

[Born_A_Truman]

43. I admit I haven't read details about either health plan proposed...

IF health insurance becomes taxable to those who have employer provided benefits, is there also a health benefit tax credit that would offset or partially offset health insurance as income? Does anyone know?

I guess I would love to see a comparison chart if it exists.

[superduperfarleft]

44. NO ONE is suggesting that premiums be taxed, except for high income levels. n/t

[OzarkDem]

50. Clinton is expressly saying they shouldn't be taxed

Obama is silent on the issue.

[superduperfarleft]

55. So was Edwards, Kucinich, and Gravel. n/t

[OzarkDem]

59. They're not in the race

they're also didn't spend time on the Trail using fear mongering tactics to destroy the chance of passing real health care reform.

Obama has several problems he needs to answer for re his health care plan. Its fatally flawed.

[superduperfarleft]

60. And the Kaiser link you posted gave them the same entry under the tax category: "no provision."

My point is that calling Obama's plan "fatally-flawed" based on your own ignorance of how health insurance works is ridiculous.

[OzarkDem]

63. Obama's plan is fatally flawed because it doesn't cover everyone

It allows people to stay uninsured until they get sick or injured. Universal health care, like Social Security, works when everyone pays into the system and fails when they don't.

Forcing the system to cover only people with health care expenses inflates costs and forces higher prices for insurance and care. Its simply not sustainable.

[superduperfarleft]

65. Fine, I'll give you that.

While adverse selection may be an issue, the fact that the risk pool is substantially widened helps, and the idea is to make the plans attractive enough that people don't need to be forced to enroll. But then Hillary's plan decides for you what you can afford. Both plans are pay-offs to insurance companies, regardless of the minute differences between them.

So will you now stop running all over the place screaming about how Obama's plan is going to tax premium payments or health benefits received? (I'm not even sure you know what you think he's taxing)

Single-payer is the real answer, and watching Obamaists and Hillaryists fight over which pile of shit is better stinks of blind adherences to a candidate, not a real understanding of the issue.

[OzarkDem]

69. Clinton offers a choice between buying into a government plan or private insurance

That's not forcing people to sign up for private insurance. In fact, they're more likely to buy a govt insurance plan as they are inherently less expensive than private plans.

[OzarkDem]

49. Here's a comparison chart

Clinton's plan offers tax credits to individuals and businesses to buy either govt or private insurance. Her subsidy is linked to a cap on insurance premiums. Her plan also protects an employee from being taxed on the value of insurance.


Side by Side comparison of candidates' plans

http://www.health08.org/sidebyside_results.cfm?c=11&c=16

[MadBadger]

47. Through My Daddy.

[mutant80]

51. Clinton has the solid Health proposal according to economists

Krugman says Obama's is to the far right.

Don't you think we need strong health plans?

The right wing is pounding Clinton because they do not
want their profits jeapordized.
This is why the wild rush to kill her off. This is
orchestrated.

[LWolf]

54. Through my employer. I pay part of the premium and all of the copays.

I'm not willing to pay income tax on the value of the plan.

[superduperfarleft]

62. You won't. The OP is either being obtuse or lying. n/t

[OzarkDem]

64. Prove it then

Clinton has anticipated this issue and dealt with in her plan - another example of how she has taken the time to carefully study the current system and develop a quality, comprehensive, sustainable and affordable alternative.

[superduperfarleft]

66. Again: Edwards didn't deal with it either.

Neither Edwards, Kucinich, or Gravel "addressed" that issue, both having the same answer as Obama under the tax treatment category. I have the original PDF from Kaiser on my computer, and I'd be happy to email it to you if you don't believe me.

[LWolf]

67. I'd rather have HR 676 than either of the two in question.

Which of the two would be more likely to push for HR 676 to be passed, and then to sign it into law?

[superduperfarleft]

68. I'd wager neither.

I think if we're expecting a monumental shift in the priorities of the ruling class by electing either Hillary or Obama, we're going to be disappointed.

[LWolf]

70. I'd wager the same.

Which is why I'm MORE than disappointed that they are the last two standing.

[Tatiana]

61. Both plans are lousy. I do not like Clinton's, I don't like Obama's.

I'd rather elect a (true) democratic congress that will pass a single-payer bill. Hopefully one of them will sign it.

Otherwise, my situation does not improve under either one.