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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:18 PM
Original message
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Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 03:40 PM by H2O Man



"No American, young or old, must ever be denied the right to dissent. No monirity must be muzzled. Opinion and protest are the life breath of democracy – even when it blows heavy.

"But I urge you never to dissent merely because someone asked you to or because someone else does. Please know what you protest. Know what it is you dissent from. And always try when you do disagree to offer a choice to the course that you disapprove. For dissent and protest must be the recourse of men who, in challenging the existing order, reason their way to a better order."
--President Lyndon B. Johnson; June 7, 1966

There comes a time when every generation is faced with choices between "change" and "more of the same." In 1960, the presidential election was between Senator John F. Kennedy, the candidate of change, and VP Richard Nixon, who defined "more of the same."

Four months after LBJ gave the speech quoted above, Senator Robert F. Kennedy delivered a speech at the Berkley campus of the University of California. It was highlighted in one of his official campaign publications two years later. The speech was titled, "We Dissent." Let me quote from it:

"It is not enough to allow dissent. We must demand it. For there is much to dissent from …We dissent from the fact that millions are trapped in povert while the nation grows rich. …. We dissent from the conditions and hatreds which deny a full life to our fellow citizens because of the color of their skin. …. We dissent from the monstrous absurdity of a world where nations stand poised to destroy one another, and men must kill their fellow men. ….We dissent from cities which blnt our senses and turn ordinary acts of daily life into a painful struggle. … We dissent from all these structures – of technology and of society itself – which strip from the individual the dignity and warmth of sharing in the common tasks of his community and his country." (October 22, 1966)

Kennedy offered the opportunity to change; Humphrey was viewed as "more of the same." And Humphrey lost to Nixon, because Humphrey was tied to errors of the Johnson administration.

In November, either Senator Hillary Clinton or Senator Barack Obama will probably be facing Senator John McCain. It will be an election in which the nation will have to decide to vote either for a democratic candidate of change, or for more of the same with John McCain.

Two of the most important issues that will be debated between either Clinton or Obama, and John McCain, will be the US foreign policy in the Middle East – including Iraq and Iran – and the role of the Constitution (specifically the Bill of Rights) in our modern society.

There have been numerous discussions about which democrat could best be viewed as the candidate of change in a contest against McCain, and which one will be viewed as more of the same. The issue of the congressional vote that allowed the administration to move forward with its invasion of Iraq has caused some dispute among democrats. Obama did speak out against the invasion; Clinton and McCain both voted for it.

The other issue that is worth our looking at is the need to repair the damage done to the Great Writ. Both Clinton and Obama have spoken about restoring habeas corpus. McCain is certain to be against that. However, in any debate, either a moderator or John McCain himself will be able to say that the first step in the dismantling of the Great Writ took place in 1996. President Clinton worked closely with conservative republicans to pass the
Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 (also known as AEDPA) .

Senator Clinton speaks of her experience as First Lady as being part of what qualifies her to be President of the United States. Will she only want to roll back the damage President Bush has done to the Great Writ? Or will she recognize that it was only more of the same thing her husband had done, and be willing to roll back the damage President Clinton did, as well?

I think that Senator Barack Obama represents our party’s and our nation’s best chance for positive change. I think that he has done a better job of describing what it is he disagrees with from the Bush-Cheney administration, and has defined what positive course he would take to correct the damage that has been done to our society.
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99th_Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. I worked for Bobby in Oregon & California in '68
and I agree Obama is our last best hope for some kind of positive change.

thanks for your post.. recommended ;-)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Thank you.
I think it is interesting that the Kennedy Clan today has some members supporting Senator Clinton, and some supporting Senator Obama. I think that DUers can be good democrats and support either one of the two candidates. I think that Obama provides the better course for repairing more of the serious problems, and endorse him for this reason.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ch-ch-ch-changes.
:thumbsup:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. "We must change
to master change." -- LBJ
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. Excellent Post. Thank you for sharing. K&R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. "Change is not merely
necessary to life -- it is life!" -- Alvin Toffler

I read a great OP by Will Pitt, about how there is significant change in the wind. I thought it was one of the most encouraging OPs on DU in weeks. At the same time, I recognize that change is difficult for many people. But it is necessary.
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corkhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. Right on H2O Man
:toast: another great op
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Thank you!
Primary season should be a fun time, with serious but good-natured debate among democrats.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. I do so look forward to your posts ! Thank you for the time and insight you put into them. K&R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I appreciate that!
I can't say that I put more than a couple of minutes into them, but I'd like to think there is a bit of insight there!
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. The deep-level changes that we need will have to come from the people...
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 03:36 PM by IndyOp
And we will have to move far beyond the current fault lines between Democratic and Republican parties.

Right now, the debate is whether to require car manufacturers to have higher mileage a bit sooner or a bit later, a small increase in mileage or a moderate one. We have to change that debate to whether we make the manufacture of any/all combustion engines illegal by the end of 2009 or 2010. The debate must be whether we nationalize electric companies and build a 90-square mile solar-power generating facility in Arizona or twin facilities in Arizona and New Mexico.

Do we close 600 or 700 U.S. military bases around the world? Do we employ the displaced military personnel without jobs to South America, Africa, or Asia to begin healing ecological devastation?

We have to do this no matter whether Obama, Clinton or McCain are elected / appointed.

I support Obama because I believe that he (and Dean's 50-State Strategy) are doing the most to awaken a diverse group of citizens across the nation who will become the change we urgently, urgently need to see.

Peace.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Barack Obama
seems to understand the Power of Ideas, and understands dispute resolution. McCain grasps neither. We need that contrast in the fall debates.
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thoughtcrime1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Not to mention the transparency in gov't that Obama covets
People would feel much closer to their gov't and could hold legislators much more accountable.
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bulldogge Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. This is the line that stuck out the most to me personally
"We dissent from the fact that millions are trapped in poverty while the nation grows rich." I was reading the other day about Exxon and their record breaking profits 40.6 billion dollars, which beat last years record of course, and I started thinking about all the people that can't afford to fill up at the gas station or heat their homes properly or safely this winter. I started thinking about it and I realized none of the cashiers working at the gas stations were millionaires so I started wondering "where is all the money going?".

How troubling is it that this great nation can still relate to every word from the October 1966 quote above? This upcoming election really has the feeling of now or never for a lot of folks in my circle. I have stated before that I would take Clinton over McCain any day as I have lived in states that both have worked in but if I have a choice which I still do I would prefer Obama simply because I believe in his approach to the current mess in the white house.

This is a side note and I am just curious but with both democratic candidates being so close in the delegate race is there any real chance that one of the two would end up a third party candidate?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Right
Things haven't changed in the ways that they had the potentiasl to change. Instead, we have had more of the same.

I do not think there is any chance of either Clinton or Obama going "third party." But there is a potential of other forces attempting to divide the democratic and liberal independent votes in the fall.

It's funny: I was hoping that some of my sparring partners would show up here, like they did on the last thread. It's either they all show up, or none of them do. Perhaps they aren't comfortable talking about habeas corpus.

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
31. K&R !

Too bad the status quo shills are attacking you in other threads, but they don't have the guts to debate the real issues. All they can try to do is equate any opposition to Hillary with the personal attacks on Hillary by right-wingers. As anyone with any real depth will realize, the issues run far deeper.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Oh, I want them to.
I think it's a giggle that they have projected me first as Patrick Buchanan, then Hitler. I will answer it. But in my own time. I want them to have their say -- then I'll have mine.

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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
15. the possibility of change has awakened many
and they seem to flow to Obama.

Whether he is able to follow through on his promises, I don't know, no one does. The establishment is cemented and deep rooted and will not give up easily.

What is important is more may take upon themselves the work that is needed to make it. He has collected the collective and that is always a good thing.

The Other Superpower - that is us - may be getting over the long slumber and the powers that be are a little nervous.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I agree.
The real superpower is "us" -- and there are those who are awakening, as described by Ouspensky, to new possibilities. We have friends who are hitting the snooze button, because they want another 12 minutes of shut-eye. They resent the call to wake up. But it is that time.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. A Hopi Elder speaks:
A Hopi Elder Speaks

"You have been telling the people that this is the Eleventh Hour, now you must go back and tell the people that this is the Hour.  And there are things to be considered . . .

Where are you living?
What are you doing?
 What are your relationships?
Are you in right relation?
Where is your water?
Know your garden.
It is time to speak your Truth.
Create your community.
Be good to each other.
And do not look outside yourself for the leader."

Then he clasped his hands together, smiled, and said, "This could be a good time!"

    "There is a river flowing now very fast.  It is so great and swift that there are those who will be afraid.  They will try to hold on to the shore.   They will feel they are torn apart and will suffer greatly. 

    "Know the river has its destination.  The elders say we must let go of the shore, push off into the middle of the river, keep our eyes open, and our heads above water.   And I say, see who is in there with you and celebrate.  At this time in history, we are to take nothing personally, Least of all ourselves.  For the moment that we do,  our spiritual growth and journey comes to a halt. 

    "The time for the lone wolf is over.  Gather yourselves!  Banish the word struggle from you attitude and your vocabulary.  All that we do now must be done in a sacred manner and in celebration. 

    "We are the ones we've been waiting for."

-- attributed to an unnamed Hopi elder
Hopi Nation
Oraibi, Arizona

===
I find this both frightening and comforting.
but I am beginning to recognize some bobbing heads that let go the shore.
;)
 
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. "Hope" ... is a story of prophecy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVSmLpNK45Q

"Hope" ... is a story of prophecy.

The story of man going down the wrong path, with one day the
possibility of finding the path of peace and love. What we are seeing
around the world with wars, genocide, diseases, climate change such as
global warming, and potential earth changes that have been foretold by
many seers and indigenous peoples. This is that story in animated
visuals and soundtrack that will shake you to your roots. We must
shift to this path, without hesitation.



The sound track is similarly layered with the sounds of a beating heart,
breathing, wooden flutes, drums, rattles, a traditional Cherokee
lullaby and original music. "Hope" urges us to change course and
follow a path of wisdom, responsibility, beauty, simplicity and
gentleness. Catherine Margerin, a commercial director, known for her
unique painterly style animation, is the director of "Hope".'





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bulldogge Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Funny ,
the timing of things in life can be. I was just watching John Lennon's "War is Over if you want it" campaign on the net and one of the points that he brought up was peoples frustration with the government when in fact they are the government they just have not woken up to that fact yet. How does the saying go ?"Great minds...."
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. the saying and message is Great Minds...
have a tough survival rate if they represent the great unwashed.

and a shot rang out of the dark.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. War is over ....
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Obama is President. If We Want It. nt
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
21. shuffling stones, kicking.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
22. Swarms Of Angry Hornets Are Likely In Your Future
Some on DU have an aversion to history lessons
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
23. boot kick.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
25. up front...
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
26. Thanks, H2O Man. "The Times They Are A-Changin"
I thought of this song as we went to Caucus on Saturday. People were streaming in by the thousands!


Bob Dylan: The Times They Are A-Changin'

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
41. Great song.
Thanks.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
28. Very apropos parallels you've drawn there.
Nixon has taught us a lot about politics, hasn't he? There are lessons to be learned each day from studying his campaigns.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
29. WE are the people we've been waiting for!!
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Freetospeak Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
30. ....
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
34. TURN, AND FACE THE ...
now you go ...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
35. Surprising.
None of the Clinton supporters want to discuss -- much less debate -- the damage that has been done to the Great Writ of habeas corpus.

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
36. I agree that Obama is our best chance at change. And that appears to be what
voters are wishing for? :hi:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Yes.
And as that becomes more apparent, the contest will become uglier. At least for a while.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. I'm not looking forward to the "uglier"
thing. I think I'll lay low. :hide:

;)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Well, what happens,
happens. I kind of enjoy it. I believe that I'll have some fun in the next few days. (grin)

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. I'm glad you will enjoy it.
I'll have to live vicariously through you. ;)
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