The true progressive in the race: Hillary Clinton on LGBT support.

[jlake]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gvuwovEAl9s

This brings tears to my eyes. She gets it - she cares.
Genuine feelings for the heartbreak that the inequality causes.

Folks, this is not a pet issue - this is people's lives at stake. My life at stake.
Please stop dismissing the hatred that McClurkin and his ilk bring to the table.
Their brand of "discussion" is the same as the KKK - Pure. Fucking. Hate.

It doesn't matter if you think it is a "non issue" because most people have not heard about McClurkin - it matters
because LGBT people matter.

This is why Obama's message of hope rings empty with me. He offers me none.

[islandmkl]

1. one barometer is not the only way to gauge the weather...

war applies to EVERYBODY...how is she doing by that measure?

[jlake]

3. Your are operating under wrong presumptions.

1. That Hillary is solely responsible to go to war.
2. That Obama would have opposed the war had he been in the senate
3. That Obama has done anything more than Hillary to stop the war.

And as long as gay teens have an astronomical suicide rate, what's the difference whether society pushes them to kill themselves, or kills them in a war?

[rhett o rick]

6. The only presumption is that she gave her support to the George Bush

Neocon war. It would be a presumption as to what Obama would do. In the next few months, I wouldn't be surprised at anything she said.

[jlake]

9. And Obama gave his support to McClurkin - so you see why I don't trust

Obama rhetoric of GLBT support. Dude's a liar.

[DGoldman1212]

12. He isnt a Super Delegate

Yes, McClurkin is a moron but to assume that one simple event speaks for Obama's entire campaign is plain ridiculous. Obama distanced himself from McClurkin - what else do you want? It's not like McClurkin is a super delegate or opening in song before Oprah speaks at rally's.

[jlake]

15. What the Hell does bing a superdelegate or not have to do with giving

the stage to a raging homophobe!??!!?!
:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[rhett o rick]

39. Let me see supporting the IWAR and killing a million vs. supporting a nitwit. hmm how would i decide

When Sen Clinton bowed down and kissed GW Bush's shoes and said he could kill all he wanted w/o so much as an objection i was furious. I will never forgive that. We knew he would abuse the authority, did she or didn't she?

[MagsDem]

13. Oh, so we wouldn't have gone to war except for Hillary?

Jesus, you people are so clueless.

[avrdream]

30. It is their way of changing the subject because they KNOW that BO was wrong!

He sold us out with Donnie Mac......

[rhett o rick]

61. But she sold us out by supporting bush/cheney. How much lower can you get than to vote with bush/

cheney. A million died, doesn't that mean anything to you. A million died. It isn't all her fault, i didn't say it was. Her vote against wouldn't have saved the million, but she supported bush. I will never forgive any of the democrats that supported the IWAR because they didn't have the guts to stand up for what was right. Rationalization is the key to happyness. So you rationalize away a million lives because, for some reason, you want another Clinton to be president.

[rhett o rick]

46. Read my lips, the point is simple, she is guilty of giving her support to Bush and Cheney.

A lot of people are also guilty. That doesn't mean she is off the hook. She supported the fuhrer, and more than once. you must realize that at the time of the vote I was going crazy yelling at the Dem's to help us against the fascist dictator. But noooo. Destroy Iraq, destroy the US economy.

[avrdream]

65. See, changing the subject again!

The thread is about LGBT issues and now you are on the war and the economy.

By the way, every time you answer with something irrelevant, the thread gets bumped to the top. Thanks for that. It helps keep the issue up front and center where it damn well aught to be.

[rhett o rick]

73. The war is irrelevant? you are sick. And by the way, I don't give a good

crap that i bump this post. Do you think you can shut me up by that threat. Women and children are being burned to death (death if they are lucky) by phosphorus bombs used by our army. Sen Clinton, for some reason, probably political, authorized this horror. And you think that is irrelevant. This war that she helped authorized may be the death of our own country. She is accountable for her vote.

[rhett o rick]

74. I forgot to mention the cluster bombs that don't go off until a child picks them up. But you go

ahead an rationalize this away. I cry when I think about the horrors that have been unleashed in Iraq. And I damn the Democrats that joined the republicans to support the war, the killing, the horrors.

[nonconformist]

78. Don't you know? Hillary rode into Baghdad on a tank, hooting and hollering...

While Obama stood in protest in front of the tank, Tiananmen Square style.

[rhett o rick]

82. Make fun if you must. But I live it when she voted to support Bush. She supported the worst

president ever. And Iraq paid the price as we have. If you can look the other way more power to you. But myself, I will never forgive her, or the others, like Dashiel. Traitors the bunch of them.

[msongs]

18. tht measure, as in obama votes to support and fund war? nt

[DGoldman1212]

2. Tell Hillary to distance herself

from Bill Clinton until he apologizes for "Dont Ask Don't Tell" (aka: Jim Crow for gays) and DOMA. And since she supposedly promises to reverse this modern day Jim Crow, demand that she is also as eager to remove DOMA in its entire form...not just part 3.

[rhett o rick]

4. He also pushed thru NAFTA and supported the WTO. There are lots of reasons

for her to distance herself from him. But she supported George W. Bush way to many times. Over a million dead.

[DGoldman1212]

5. Ditto

[ExtraGriz]

7. thanks for posting this

considering 1/3 of all glbtq youths have attempted suicide...thank god that many of them do not succeed!!!

[Spider Jerusalem]

8. One interaction versus years of support for DOMA?

Sorry, that doesn't fly.

[MagsDem]

11. Hillary never supported DOMA

Where do you come up with this shit???

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. She's using a noted homophobe on her campaign trail.

The guy who signed DOMA into law.

[MagsDem]

36. At least she isn't THE noted homophobe like Obama is on his

Obama said, "I'm a Christian. And so, although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition, and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman."

Oh, and Bill's not running.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. Sure she is.

Clinton is also a christian and believes that marriage is between a man and a woman.

"Oh, and Bill's not running."

Neither is McClurkin.

Do Clinton supporters have any criticism of Obama that isn't so obviously hypocritical?

[MagsDem]

44. Try again....

"Sen. Clinton believes that each state should make its own decisions regarding marriage or civil unions, but once a state legalizes such relationships, these relationships should receive full federal recognition and benefits," Ethan Geto, Clinton's senior national adviser on LGBT issues, wrote in an email to The Advocate.

"As several states have legalized gay marriage or civil unions, Sen. Clinton has come to believe that the restrictions imposed by DOMA on federal government recognition of same-sex relationships are unfair."

[Spider Jerusalem]

17. ...

http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbianactivism/p/HillaryClinton.htm

For starters. Many other links if you want them.
Relevant quote: "Marriage has got historic, religious and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time, and I think a marriage is as a marriage always has been, between a man and a woman." - Hillary Clinton, opposing same-sex marriages, quoted in The New York Daily News.

[MagsDem]

31. Cut the crap -- here's her statement on DOMA

"Sen. Clinton believes that each state should make its own decisions regarding marriage or civil unions, but once a state legalizes such relationships, these relationships should receive full federal recognition and benefits," Ethan Geto, Clinton's senior national adviser on LGBT issues, wrote in an email to The Advocate.

"As several states have legalized gay marriage or civil unions, Sen. Clinton has come to believe that the restrictions imposed by DOMA on federal government recognition of same-sex relationships are unfair."

[Spider Jerusalem]

37. Sure, she says that NOW...

but she was saying something very different from 1996 to 2004.

Try doing a little research, eh? You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Your 'she never supported DOMA' makes that abundantly clear.

[MagsDem]

42. I don't have to do research -- I was there

Show me a vote she ever took that ever supported DOMA in any fashion.

[Spider Jerusalem]

49. This isn't just about her votes in the Senate.

This is about her publicly stated support of DOMA going back to 1996. Which you don't get to ignore just because it doesn't fit in the picture you want to paint.

[MagsDem]

59. She didn't have one in 1996. I told you, I was there

[Spider Jerusalem]

63. Yes, she did.

She was in SUPPORT of it. You can deny it all you want; it does not change the FACTS. She also defended it in her campaign for Senate in 2000: http://gaycitynews.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17379741&BRD=2729&PAG=461&dept_id=568864&rfi=6

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Spider Jerusalem]

76. I'm not going to give you the response you deserve.

Because, unlike you, I know how to control my temper.


You seem to ignore totally a record of clear statements extending back over a decade. You ignore them, because they are contrary to what you wish to believe. Your mind is made up; no use trying to confuse you with facts. Hillary Clinton said that she believes 'marriage is between a man and a woman' on 'moral grounds'. She volunteered without asking her support for DOMA while running for the Senate in New York. She has not been consistent, regardless of whatever fantasy you wish to believe. The FACTS are on my side. Not on yours. That you have to resort to personal attacks and name-calling does nothing but expose the weakness of your position. I'm sorry you're incapable of rational and reasoned discussion, but it's not really my problem, either.

[jlake]

16. I'm going to need a link to her "support of DOMA"

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. Here:

[jackson_dem]

10. Hill is the only trustworthy candidate on GLBT issues

[blm]

19. Kerry submitted first senate gay protection bill EVER in 80s and you trash him.

Kerry LED the advocacy offensive for gays to serve openly in the military in 1993, Clinton refuses to back up Kerry as promised, and ditches the entire effort to accept DADT and you trash Kerry and embrace Clintons.

Kerry, in a tough senate race in 1996 takes a stand against DOMA in speeches on the senate floor, Bill SIGNS DOMA, and you trash Kerry and embrace Clintons.

Clinton tells Kerry he has to support antigay measures on the ballot in southern states, Kerry refuses, and you trash Kerry and embrace Clintons.

[jlake]

20. I am not trashing Kerry. Our choices are OBAMA or HILLARY... why is this so hard to understand?

Kudos to Kerry.... he is not an option, so I don't know what the point of discussing him is?

[blm]

22. You attacked Kerry for his efforts and praised Hillary who did NOTHING in the senate.

.

[jlake]

24. I did not attack Kerry. I said he didn't get anything done. And again, I ask

What does Kerry have to do with Clinton v Obama?

[blm]

29. It's YOUR perspective, jlake - you have no sense of proportion and show little grasp

of what has actually OCCURRED on these issues over the last twenty plus years.

[jlake]

32. Well, Obama sure doesn't have a grasp on anything.

I am entitled to my feelings, and it looks like I am not alone since anywhere from 65-75% of GLBTQ folk support Hillary Clinton.

[blm]

45. Mainly because of poor reporting and spin and uninformed young activists who don't

know better.

The same reason some military veterans actually supported Bush instead of Gore or Kerry. The media made sure they wouldn't know the truth. Talking points are easy - they sound so real, even. Truth takes time and commitment and integrity.

Truth either matters or it doesn't to you.

[AtomicKitten]

23. you speak the truth

Bill Clinton reportedly told John Kerry to throw gays under the bus during 2004 election. What is he telling Hillary, and is she listening?
by John Aravosis (DC)

http://www.americablog.com/2007/06/bill-clinton-reportedly-told-john-kerry.html

The Kerry Edwards 2004 campaign says Bill Clinton tried to throw gays under the bus. Bill Clinton's office says it's not true. Who do we believe? And what does this mean for Hillary Clinton's presidential run?

As Pam Spaulding noted last week, Democratic political consultant Bob Shrum claims in his new book that during the 2004 elections, Bill Clinton advised John Kerry to support the Federal Marriage Amendment, i.e., the anti-gay amendment to the US Constitution that would have banned gay marriage and vitiated scores of other rights that gay couples may have, including health insurance, inheritance, child custody, parenting, and more. Shrum reports that Kerry refused to endorse the amendment.

I decided to check with Bill Clinton's office and the Kerry-Edwards 2004 campaign to find out if this is true. Here is what I found.

Jay Carson, spokesman for President Clinton told me:

"I checked and it's completely untrue. He never advised John Kerry to support the gay marriage ban President Bush was pushing."

A senior Kerry-Edwards 2004 campaign staffer told me:

"It's definitely true. Newsweek had reported that Clinton had said Kerry should support some of the state ballot initiatives. Clinton believed it would be this grand master stroke to neutralize Bush's base."

I went back to both President Clinton's office and the Kerry-Edwards campaign official, asking them to reconcile the apparent discrepancy. Clinton's spokesman stands by his denial - to the best of his knowledge, it didn't happen. The senior Kerry-Edwards 2004 campaign staffer also stands by their statement that it did happen, noting that Clinton's denial was "typical Clintonian revisionism."

(As an aside, I also went back to Clinton's spokesman to make sure that he wasn't parsing his words - i.e., Clinton never advised Kerry to support the anti-gay amendment that Bush was pushing, but did he advise him to push any other version of the federal amendment? Clinton's spokesman assured me that there was no intent to parse, Clinton never advised Kerry to support any version of the federal constitutional amendment.)

Who to believe? Is there absolute proof that Clinton said it? Not yet. But you've got two sources who say he did, to one source who says he didn't. Then you have to look to the veracity of the sources. Shrum is not well-loved in bloggyland, though I'm not sure he's thought of as a liar - rather the charge is that he's inept at winning. The Kerry-Edwards campaign is not known for its electoral victories either, to be sure, but it's also not known for lying. Then there's Bill Clinton. I'm not going to revisit ancient history, but it certainly "sounds" like something Clinton would say and do, and it sounds like something he'd subsequently deny.

To get a sense of whether this "sounds like Clinton," let's look back at Clinton's record on federal bans on gay marriage. Go back to the Clinton re-election campaign in 1995. Clinton hired Democratic strategist Mark Penn as his pollster and political adviser along with now-conservative pundit Dick Morris. (Mark Penn is also Hillary Clinton's chief strategist for her current presidential run - more on that later). Penn, Morris and Clinton had decided that Clinton was going to win the re-election based on his support for "family values." And family values meant "bashing gays."

From TIME:

By the time Clinton arrived in Chicago for his party's convention in August, nothing that hinted at liberalism was left hanging on him. When the President, who had begun his term advocating the rights of gays in the military, came around to supporting the Defense of Marriage Act, which barred federal recognition for gay and lesbian unions, Dole was wide-eyed. "Is there anything we're for that he won't jump on?" Dole asked. The answer, essentially, was nothing...

It's no coincidence that after hiring Penn, Clinton signed the anti-gay Defense of Marriage Act and then ran radio ads on Christian radio touting his support for DOMA.

From the Associated Press, October 17, 1996:

After angry complaints from gay-rights advocates, the Clinton campaign on Wednesday replaced an ad running on religious radio stations that boasted of the president's signature on a bill banning gay marriages....

The Clinton spot also touted his signing of the Defense of Marriage Act, in spite of earlier White House complaints that the Republicans' use of the issue amounted to "gay baiting."

DOMA wasn't something Bill Clinton was forced to do, it's something he chose to do, wanted to do, was happy to do. And that explains why Bill Clinton has never repudiated his support for DOMA. I thought at the time, and still thought up until a few days ago, that Bill Clinton was forced to sign DOMA. That the only reason he hadn't repudiated that support - hadn't said "look, it was GOP gay-baiting and I didn't have a choice, no Democrat had a choice" - was because it might put Hillary in a bind, forcing her to also repudiate DOMA, something she of course would WANT to do but couldn't because it might prove politically dangerous. But now it seems Clinton's Choice was much clearer, and more calculated, than that. Clinton thought DOMA was a great idea for him then, and thinks it's a great idea for his wife now. It's not a necessary evil, it's manna from heaven.

The final proof that legislative gay-bashing is still something President Clinton recommends as smart Democratic politics? Bill Clinton wanted to make sure that John Kerry's presidential defeat in 2004 would be blamed on Kerry's unwillingness to sufficiently bash the gays. That's the most sensible explanation for why he made the following leak to Newsweek within days of Kerry's loss (Kerry-Edwards campaign staff tell me that they were not the ones who leaked this to Newsweek, and Clinton and his people were the only other party involved).

From Newsweek:

President Clinton, who signed the Defense of Marriage Act when he was in the White House, advised Kerry in a phone call early in the campaign to find a way to support the state bans. Kerry never considered abandoning his principles to that extent, but he also didn’t take seriously enough the threat.

So now the gays lost Kerry the election. Priceless.

It gives me no joy to bash Bill Clinton. I cannot express sufficiently how much I admire the man's intellect and his political acumen. We had lunch with him last fall, and my first thought was "this is what a real president is like." He possesses so many of the qualities that our party and our politicians lack nowadays. But the man is politically amoral. Not immoral - amoral. And he, along with his amoral campaign aide Mark Penn, are the top advisers to Hillary Clinton's presidential run. And that should give every supporter of gay rights, civil rights, or any other issue, serious pause.

There's already a growing concern in the gay community that Senator Clinton, while "good on paper" on gay issues - and once considered remarkably good personally - will throw us under the bus if and when she becomes president. And let's be clear. We're not talking about some arcane tax policy issue. We're talking about our lives. Having the Democratic party's top two legislative gay-bashers as her top two advisers, men who will betray any cause, any principle, any supporter, for a bump in the polls (read more about Mark Penn's own loyalty problems here and here), does nothing to assuage those growing concerns.

PS And if I'm wrong, if Bob Shrum is wrong, if the senior Kerry-Edwards campaign official is wrong, if history is wrong, then let Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton publicly repudiate DOMA in its entirety.

[jlake]

25. Do you know the difference between a "Report" and a "Fact" or "Bill" and "Hillary"

Sometimes I don't think so.

[AtomicKitten]

27. I know you don't.

[blm]

34. Ever hear Hillary take Bill to task publicly for his anti-gay moves?

Don't play this game of pretend like you know the historic record, because you don't. No serious longtime gay activist concerned about REAL ACTIONS would make the silly statements you make, especially when you trashed Kerry.

[jlake]

43. I never fucking trashed Kerry. I am done with your flippant attitude towards me.

[blm]

54. YOU SAID THIS: "Hillary has done so much for gays...Kerry didn't accomplish shit"

Response to Reply #7
10. Hillary has done so much for gays in NY - Kerry didn't accomplish shit.

Edited on Thu Feb-14-08 06:41 PM by jlake
And all Obama has done is throw us under the bus.

[jlake]

60. Yes, that is not trashing him, but a fact. I am not saying he didn't try -- but

Kerry never got anything done.... that is a fact.

I sincerely think that *you* are blinded by your loyalty to Kerry -- I mean, why else would you keep injecting him into a conversation about Hillary v Obama?

[blm]

67. What did Hillary ACCOMPLISH? Kerry brought gay issues INTO the senate - THAT IS AN ACCOMPLISHMENT

that you are too obtuse to grasp.

[jlake]

68. I'm through talking about Kerry. He is not a choice, so it is a moot point.

[blm]

69. It was useful to show you know very little about the actual subject matter at hand.

An uninformed person acting as an activist at a forum where there are more than a few who know the actual records of those involved - good luck with that.

[jlake]

71. You are absolutely disconnected from reality. Kerry is NOT involved in this.

It is OBAMA & HILLARY.

[blm]

79. Bill is more involved than McClurkin and Bill DID screw over Kerry on GAY ISSUES he

was advocating for in the senate. Hillary didn't step up for the gay issues anytime they came up in the senate while Bill was president.

So Kerry DOES figure into the argument as we have WITNESSED how Clintons throw good lawmakers under the bus on gay issues if they think they have some political gain to be made for themselves. And it has been going on for MANY YEARS.

If you can't figure that out by now....

[MagsDem]

52. Kerry, Clinton's, Obama on gay rights

Kerry did stand up and fight against DADT and DOMA, but I suspect only because it was safe to do so in MA. He wussed out on marraige in 2004 just like everyone else did. As for Clinton and Kerry, Kerry wasn't going to win any southern states anyway. I can't picture that really being discussed very seriously, so I don't see Clinton as a demon on that, or Kerry as a saint.

Hillary has pretty much always been one of our best on GLBT issues. And Bill did try to get ENDA and the hate crimes bill passed, actively, in fact.

None of them are perfect. They're politicians. They want to get elected and we are the blacks of the pre 1950's - politically inconvienent, even though they want our vote. Problem with Obama is he panders to homophobes, which is completely unnecessary.

[blm]

64. BULL> He didn't do it because it was safe in 93 and 96. He submitted FIRST EVER gay protection bill

in the senate in the 80s when NOBODY wanted to stand up for gays at all in any public way.

The fact that YOU didn't know that and chose to cast Kerry's actions supporting gays in 93 and 96 as some aberrant and safe political decision is just BULLSHIT.

You don't know anything about Kerry or his integrity - you wouldn't as it takes someone who considers their citizenship as a responsibility to be an informed voter watchful of its government.

[MagsDem]

77. Chill -- I voted for him

I knocked doors and phone banked for him. Yes, I know he proposed a anti-discrimination bill in 84 or 86. And he actually was one of a few to vote against DOMA. I'm just saying MA is not a particularly risky place to support LGBT issues. And it isn't.

He wasn't quite so brave about standing up for marriage, either federally, or the marriage laws in MA, when he was running for president. He actually refused to take a stand on the issue in his own state, even though it was not politically risky there at the time, when he ran for president.

I didn't hold it against him. I knew he was trying to get votes on a national scale from a lot of homophobes. I was speaking more to political reality than his character. I have met him, and he is a good guy. He just didn't run a very good campaign for president.

[blm]

84. He won. RNC stole that election and DNC let them do it.

You think Hillary would have won in 2004? She and Bill were both standing with Bush on his decisions on terrorism and Iraq war and against Kerry on those matters then. So how would she have contrasted herself with Bush?

And do you think Hillary's team is running a great campaign now? What if they had to face Bush-Rove at the HEIGHT of their power in 2003-4?

[bunnies]

26. Yeah. That must be why she's against gay marriage.

Get it? Shes against gay marriage. WTF do you think she's going to bring to the table that BHO wont? At LEAST Obama is fighting for the same rights for all... regardless of the WORD union v marriage. Hillary is AGAINST gay marriage. You want her? Have her. By all means.

What the hell does she offer the LGBT community that he doesnt?!

[jlake]

28. Obama may offer "a set of rights" ..... and his actions speak pretty clearly

that he doesn't give a flying fuck about glbt folk.

[DGoldman1212]

38. And you base that on one event...

an event that Obama has distanced himself from. You make it sound like Obama is the Mike Huckabee of this party. If he has "no record" to stand on, then you can't be so strongly against him.

Why don't you play tough with Hillary and ask her to demand that Bill apologize for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and DOMA? Just get him to do it once...just one apology will work for me.

[jlake]

47. He never apologized. And his "basic set or rights" is a seperate, and oft repeated line.

Hillary didn't pass DOMA - and quite frankly, marriage isn't a concern if I am being rounded up and put in a camp - you know, McClurkin's vision.

[DGoldman1212]

51. So dramatic...

Something rational and less dramatic will come out of your fingers eventually. Until then...I'll laugh. So what you are saying is...Donnie McClurkin can't count on your vote if he ever runs for president? Gotcha...

[bunnies]

57. his set of rights is not seperate. Unless you're hung up on a word.

And as a chick whose been in relationships with chicks.... I say... FUCK the "words". If the religious folk own the word "marriage" then I dont want any part of it. But Obama will fight to make sure both have equal rights and even though Im in a "straight" relationship now... I still fucking get it. If the WORD is most important to you... youre going to step on your dick. RIGHTS are more important to me however.

I dont agree with McClurkin on ANY level. And even though Im an Obama supporter... the whole think sickens me.

[MagsDem]

58. Yep - you nailed it

And he panders to homophobes, which is completly unnecessary. Can you picture the hell there would be to pay if Hillary pandered to a racist? I shudder to think. And she would not even consider such a thing. But he panders to homophobes and it's completely okay, apparently, to his supporters.

[maddiejoan]

33. I believe Hillary on LGBT rights

I don't believe Obama.

Get it?

[MagsDem]

56. No she isn't

"Sen. Clinton believes that each state should make its own decisions regarding marriage or civil unions, but once a state legalizes such relationships, these relationships should receive full federal recognition and benefits," Ethan Geto, Clinton's senior national adviser on LGBT issues, wrote in an email to The Advocate.

"As several states have legalized gay marriage or civil unions, Sen. Clinton has come to believe that the restrictions imposed by DOMA on federal government recognition of same-sex relationships are unfair."

[NMMNG]

35. K&R

Folks, this is not a pet issue - this is people's lives at stake. My life at stake.

That's what so many don't seem to get. This is not about our sex-lives. This is not about some tiny non-consequential matter. These are far-reaching, comprehensive issues that encompass every facet of our lives. Our jobs, our families, our homes, our economic concerns, our health, our spirituality....everything.

Why do people not get it?

[Deja Q]

41. In terms of jobs, of which nothing else is possible, where do both candidates stand?

Or McCain.

What if everyone is being played as chumps?

Does being productive? Do people matter? Or shall we all don name tags with labels on them?

[Beausoir]

48. K&R.

[no name no slogan]

50. Instead of embracing the lesser of two evils,

we should be DEMANDING that BOTH our candidates put their full support behind full civil rights for ALL people regardless of sexual preference. That includes full marriage rights for ALL.

Yes, I know there's only two candidates left, but either way they BOTH need pressure from the party rank-and-file that civil rights for LGBT people is not just a campaign sledgehammer to beat the shit out of each other with, but is a REAL issue that affects REAL people.

[NorthernSpy]

53. Donnie McClurkin, gospel singer, is NOTHING like the KKK...

The KKK wasn't about "discussion". The KKK was about dragging you out of your house in the middle of the night, and killing you in front of your family to "make an example".

Let's not confuse the two.

[jlake]

55. And that would be the logical conclusion to McClurkin's rhetoric.

[NorthernSpy]

62. melodrama

So convincing, too! Keep it coming, by all means.


:banghead:

[jlake]

66. No, it's not melodrama.

But keep telling yourself that the gays are just being "dramatic" if that's what it takes.

[blm]

83. Bill's decisions IN THE BULLY PULPIT effected gays more than any 100 McClurkins.

He just didn't do it IN YOUR FACE as McClurkin does in the video footage. But he did do it.

[jlake]

70. Oh, and here is a clip to this "Gospel Singer"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dUp16hFzY8


Tell me that's okay?

[rhett o rick]

75. It is terrible. But the million dead in Iraq is much worse. Think about it. nm

[MagsDem]

80. I've thought about it....

We would have gone to war in Iraq no matter how she voted. On the other hand, I don't want a president in office who goes to church and embraces this homophobia every Sunday. He panders to these people.

Now tell me if Hillary pandered to a racist, would she even be in this race? No. But somehow it's okay for your guy to pander to homophobes. You don't hold him accountable. You don't write en masse to his campaign and say how dare you. You just worship at his throne instead.

Dems want the LGBT vote because you need it. There are 4-6 million of us that vote. We've put up with Dems that don't have the courage to stand up to homophobes for much longer than we should have ever had to.

Think about it? I've been thinking about it all my life. Long before anybody voted for anything about Iraq. I'm done voting for homophobes and those that pander to them.

[rhett o rick]

81. I wish you the best. nm