I am very afraid Clinton will only go down sinking the dem party along the way

[thesubstanceofdreams]

Every day it passes, the Clinton campaign turns more negative and more Rove-like. She's starting to do all the dirty work for McPain, and it's getting worse by the hour. Her supporters gleefully post links for Obama swiftboating websites. Non-issues like the plagiarism thing or the refusal to hold an umpteenth debate are played up to dumbing levels. She's playing the fear card about Obama's electability, while any objective analysis can only conclude that it is her who would be in huge trouble against McPain.

I am afraid that Clinton is doing ANYTHING to stay alive in the campaign but, even worse, she's setting the field to have another chance in 2012.

[tekisui]

1. She is losing. That is all.

The losing candidate has to resort to childish, selfish behavior in an attempt to stay relevant.

On March 5th, she will wake to the reality that she is not within 25 delegates, as Mark Penn said she needed to be to remain viable.

It's all over but the crying and the desperate attempts to strongarm the process.

[peacebird]

2. She could be classy about it, but - no.

[MyNameGoesHere]

14. Classy about what?

It's in the 7th inning and she ain't lost shit yet. You "meant" to say you wish she would just "roll over" and give up. A little honesty is always good.

[peacebird]

50. "classy" - stay out of slimeball, dirty political games. Present her policies and why she is best

not try to smear Obama.

Take the high road, not the Rovian rode.

[MyNameGoesHere]

113. yeah. So she should roll over?

Please these elections are tame compared to past ones. Be glad dueling isn't still allowed. And Obama isn't a saint either. At least i hope he isn't. I wouldn't want someone as fragile as that as a president.

[marshall]

115. A more apt metaphor than that...

She's shit all over the voters, now why should she be surprised that we all stink (as far as she's concerned)?

[D23MIURG23]

125. She hasn't scored since the first and she needs three grand slams. n/t

[MyNameGoesHere]

140. Well stranger things have happened

i of course am not ready to roll over and join the mass hysteria of Obama. WHEN and if he can ever be properly vetted and drug through the mud then maybe i will consider him. Until then i have doubts that he can stand up to the RW hate mongers. And if he cannot do that he has no chance of being nothing more than a Carter Administration.

[D23MIURG23]

143. Being covered in mud isn't a credential, as much as HRC wants it to be.

Let me see if I am reading you right: Obama needs to be the target of more right wing attacks or he will suffer the fate of Carter? Since when does the volume of hatred leveled at you have any connection to your ability as president?

Hillary might get luck, just like all the other people who play the lottery. But the party is paying the price of her ticket in time, unity, and resources for the fight against McCain.

[jasmine621]

93. She'll get blamed for sinking the pary even though Obama will get a pass.

His campaign of subtle race-baiting will actually cause deep division that will not go away for decades.

[XemaSab]

126. If you look at his race-baiting versus her gender baiting

it's night and day.

She put out an ad today addressing waitresses, hairstylists, and nurses.

If he put out an ad addressing porters, tenant farmers, and maids, how race-baiting would that be?

But she can address traditional (nay, stereotypical) women's occupations and that's okay? :shrug:

[Perry Logan]

3. Pot calls the kettle black.

[tekisui]

7. That's funny. Clinton is the entitled one who is willing to do or say anything

for her and her hubby's ego, including usurping voters and rules.

[Perry Logan]

18. Nobody thinks this except Clinton-haters.

[tekisui]

22. I'm no Clinton-hater.

But, her tactics have turned me off. I started amenable to Obama and Clinton. I have liked the Clintons since Bill was President. I wanted to support Hillary as the first viable woman candidate. I will certainly vote for her, should she become the nominee.

But, since January, I've heard nothing but excuses and attempts to change the rules. And, more recently, since she's behind, going negative in ads and whisper campaigns.

She's discredited caucuses, red-state Dems, previously agreed to sanctioned delegates and Obama. I am afraid she will try anything to win, rather than let the Democratic process proceed to the voters will.

[Perry Logan]

27. In my experience, the accusations against the Clinton camp have all been proven false.

Then repeated endlessly.

[Hepburn]

29. IMO: Your experience is incorrect, limited or both. n/t

[ChairmanAgnostic]

81. you mean like:

she voted for FISA
Patriot Act
Iraq war
Iran
Warrantless surveillance

or that her campaign
searched out Obama's kindergarden papers
lied about Obama's drug dealing
lied about Obama's muslim faith
lied about Obama's madrasas
lied about Obama's - hell, fill in the blank

[EmilyAnne]

52. I feel exactly the same way. I have really tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, but its

gotten way too hard. I feel like I'm doing intellectual gymnastics trying to wrap my mind about some of the recent statements and attacks by the Clinton camp. Its really depressing and I hope it ends soon, very soon.

[DIKB]

31. Wrong

I admire Clinton and what he's done, but I absolutely detest the campaign Hill is running. I fear for the party, and for the country. I found myself talking to other people, just average voters, and even they are getting turned off to Hillary as a result of her actions. When I point out the fact that, she hasn't gotten more delegates than Obama on any one day since it began in Iowa. They agree, she needs to bow out.

Unfortunately rational arguments aren't working with Clinton supporters. I'm labeled a misogynist, a "Clinton-hater," and worse. It's reminiscent of dealing with republicans.

As a former Edwards supporter, Obama looks better. There's no hate here, I'm just stating my opinion.

[Alexander]

129. Apparently people who think this are a majority of the Democratic party.

Are they all "Clinton-haters"? Many of them probably voted for Bill when he ran.

:eyes:

[Renew Deal]

60. Do you have any thoughts that last more than a sentence?

Seriously. You must be the least substantive DUer ever.

[oasis]

4. Johnny Come Latelys don't make up the core of the Democratic Party. They come

and they go according to the dictates of their whimsy.

The "Party" will survive.

[NJmaverick]

44. If it weren't for the "Johnny Come Lately" the Republicans

would still be in power. Discount them at the peril of the party.

[oasis]

65. A voting public that fails to explore the issues is a peril to America.(eom)

[Dogmudgeon]

5. I am very afraid that the Clinton haters are poisoning the well

Anyone who dares oppose Obama is branded as Evil with a capital E.

That just ain't right.

You're fantasizing about Hillary, not evaluating her campaign. "The Narrative" has so taken over this race that many people are no longer really evaluating Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, but participating vicariously in the Obama Narrative or the Clinton Narrative.

There are good reasons to support and/or oppose either candidate. They are, after all, the two best contenders we have had in a long time. But they aren't mythic figures of good and evil, no matter how much you want it to be so.

--p!

[thesubstanceofdreams]

8. Thanks for your reply

My beef is not with Hillary or Hillary supporters, but with the negative and "all rules can be broken" angle her campaign has taken in the next couple of days.

[tekisui]

9. Evaluating Hillary's campaign is what has turned me off so strongly.

I liked Hillary in December. But, her campaign took a negative turn. Her rhetoric has been insulting, and I really hope I don't have to become a supporter of hers.

[Dogmudgeon]

28. Are you sure?

First, Obama has made a number of insulting attacks of his own. There has been a strong undercurrent of "if you don't support Me, you don't support Hope" statements -- like Bush's assertion that to oppose him was to oppose freedom itself.

The press has been working overtime to downplay Obama's misstatements and exaggerate Hillary's. But if you are an Obama supporter, you probably won't believe that until around 2010 when the first in-depth studies of this election are published.

Second, is this the first election you have followed? It is FAR from being a negative campaign. Gore was accused of everything short of pedophilia in the 2000 primary. Even the 2004 primary season got pretty heated. 1980 was far and away uglier and it helped put Reagan in the White House. And 1968 was a complete fiasco.

So each candidate has taken a few swings and landed a few punches. It's a junior-high match with outsized gloves, not a full-on bar brawl.

--p!

[tekisui]

38. The way I see it...

The whisper/e-mail campaigns, Obama the Muslim coke dealer. The fairy tale. The discrediting of caucuses and red-state Dems are negative. I know it could be worse, and will get worse.

I agree that Obama has gotten good press, but I think Hillary got a lot of good press, too. The media sells what will sell. Neither of them are perfect, or my first choice. But, it's where we are now.

I would fully support Hillary Clinton should she become the Nominee, and I think that either of them would beat McCain, if we work for it.

It has been a relatively "clean" race, but I see a lot of what the Clinton Campaign has done and is doing as divisive. Anyway, thanks for the rational conversation.

[NJmaverick]

47. You know I used to wonder why people hated the Clintons

Seeing Hillary use the Clinton tactics against Obama, I know understand why. The Clintons and their supporters EARNED that animosity. Their dishonest and destructive behavior hurts both the nation and the Democratic party. If you care about either, it's perfectly understandable that you are angry.

[XemaSab]

127. I've kinda gone to that side myself in the last couple weeks

I wasn't very happy with Clinton when he was president, but I didn't understand the right-wing animosity. After the Marc Rich pardon, I sort of *saw* the sleaziness, but all politicians are sorta sleazy.

But I think in the last 8 years I forgot about them.

Today I was reading about the impeachment, and I remembered how TAWDRY the whole thing was. And the way the Clintons are acting now is just not... mature.

[Vinca]

6. Maybe that tabloid Globe newpaper I spotted in the grocery store line

a couple of weeks ago is right. Something about a divorce deal based on the outcome of the election. Maybe he's going his merry way if she loses. I didn't mention it before because there used to be a self-imposed limit here about really smarmy stuff, but the line's been crossed. Tabloids are tame compared with what we saw yesterday.

[MADem]

10. No you're not afraid of that. You're afraid that Obama fucked up, copying

Deval Patrick's speeches and campaign. You're afraid that for a guy with new ideas, why does he have to use someone else's old campaign and old speeches? Why couldn't he just hire someone to gin up something NEW and original for himself?

You're afraid that Obama wasn't as forthright as he initally appeared to be.

You're afraid people are catching on--the Obama bubble is bursting.

That's what you're afraid of.

And of course, you've got to blame someone for all these awful feelings, so you may as well lash out at your "designated enemy."

[thesubstanceofdreams]

11. Thanks for proving my point so convincingly n/t

[MADem]

15. But I didn't. Your candidate got in this hot water ALL BY HIMSELF

by using someone else's speech and someone else's campaign themes.

And you're blaming CLINTON because HE fucked up. Hey, here's how he could have avoided this problem--by not doing what he did. By running a REAL authentic campaign, not a FAKE authentic campaign.

I suppose it is easier to blame Clinton than put the blame on the person who brought it all down on himself. It obviates the need for introspection, certainly. Much simpler to blame the "Evil Other" than to actually have to question the actions and motives of your hero.

[thesubstanceofdreams]

17. This is an utter non-issue

It's sad that it's become the main talking point among Hillary supporters.

[MADem]

21. That's why it's all over TV and radio today. As it was yesterday.

OK, non-issue, then!! Even though the ones STARTING all these threads are NOT HRC supporters--they're Obama acolytes.

But we'll pretend it doesn't matter. Just because you SAY so!!

Oh, and er...SAD, too, for whatever reason...gotcha!

:eyes:

Yep, yep...move along now, nothing to see here! Keep the tv and radio off today, too, so you don't upset your beautiful mind, now.

:rofl:

:hi:

[thesubstanceofdreams]

35. So suddenly the MSM determines which issues are important?

That's news to me.
I said it and I repeat it: this is a non-issue. Obama made a small mistake, that he acknowledged. There's no more to it.
Because the Hillary campaign and the MSM are playing this up to ridiculous levels, it might cost Obama a few votes (but then it might also cost Hillary a few votes). That's precisely my point: this doesn't help the democratic party, it only helps McPain.

[MADem]

39. That's news to you? That the MSM covers news stories? Really?

OK, pretend that what is talked about on the NEWS programs, talk shows, and cable outlets doesn't matter!

There's "no more to it" because you said so!!

Wolf Blitzer, stand down! The entire NBC news team...NEVER mind! CBS, ABC, even you baastids at FAUX--pick another news story to avoid hurting your tender feelings! Talk Show hosts...talk about, oh, a recipe for custard pie or something instead! All you bums on the radio, talk about McCain's tie or something!

No offense... but :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[thesubstanceofdreams]

42. You've shown your true colors

You couldn't care less about the REAL issues, all you care about is the MSM playing stupid non-issues as long as they benefit your candidate.

Once again, thank you for conclusively proving the point I made in the OP.

[MADem]

45. That "true colors" horseshit is getting a bit old, dear.

What you're doing is trying to change the subject. I won't be deflected.

The "real" issue here, as I have said, is that Obama copied Deval's ENTIRE campaign--not just the "Just Words" speech, but the campaign slogans, the entire prosecution of the campaign strategy, even the sign colors.

Now, you might not think a guy who pushes himself on the public as an ORIGINAL and who is then found to be a copycat is a bit hypocritical, but that's where you and most of sentient America part ways.

It does matter. They may be "Just words" but when they're COPIED words, people start to feel as though they've been conned.

[Voltaire]

63. Oh come on

Its all over television and radio because the lifeblood of the msm is bullshit issues. And this is a bullshit issue if I ever saw one. Accusing the man of plagiarism is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500. If the Clinton campaign is reduced to this kind of nonsense and their followers just parrot the nonsense, I have no use for either. My neutrality is weakening by the day!

[MADem]

76. Here ya go.

It's not just the speech, either--it's the ENTIRE Patrick campaign. So much for originality. You bought yourself a reproduction, not an original, I'm afraid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCE-hVYw2as

Your "neutrality" is weakening by the day? Oh, do tell! Which dreadful DU post will 'push' you over the edge?

[Voltaire]

87. Its the tone and attitude that will put me over the edge

If Clinton wanted to win she should have had a better plan, cuz the one she is using ain't workin. And all the screaming about plagiarism in the world will not change that.

[MADem]

90. Yet there's no "blame" for the guy that sold you a used platform

of secondhand themes, a recycled campaign, and tried to pass it off as new? There's nothing but trust for someone who would engage in that degree of deceit--about who he is, what he believes, where he stands, and even what words and ideas are his?

Oh kaaay...The Force Is Strong, Luke!

Knock yourself out. I'm uninterested in changing minds. I do think facts ARE important, though.

[Voltaire]

94. Neither of them have sold me a damned thing

The facts in this case are irrelvant and the continual trafficking in them, childish.

[MADem]

97. Well, content yourself with that view. My mileage varies. I think veracity is important. NT

[totodeinhere]

20. Your comments are a good example of what the OP was talking about.

Everybody uses everybody else's material, and you know it. The Clinton camp is so desperate that they will trot out just about anything, no matter how unreasonable or disingenuous, to try to right their sinking ship. But as more rats continue to desert that sinking ship, it looks like these shrill tactics by the Clinton camp are going to backfire big time.

[MADem]

24. No, they aren't. You are EXCUSING the "New Ideas" guy for using...

OLD IDEAS.

And you're getting mad at Clinton because Obama fucked up! Your candidate of new ideas has swiped old ideas from his pal, and sold them to you as if they've never been used! You've been....conned.

If Clinton were really so "desperate" too... why would you even CARE? Do you always waste your time with desperate people who are on the ropes?

Really now...Why are you so UPSET and excited about 'rats' (GOP term, you know) on 'sinking ships?'

Hmmmmm? Doesn't make sense.

Smooth move, there, too--using the SHRILL word. That's right out of the Rove Playbook!

Yeah, that's the action of the team on the "High Ground!"

:rofl:

[CreekDog]

you can use old words to support new ideas

change doesn't mean we are going to stop using english and stop referring and using great ideas that have been expressed in the past to implement things that have not yet been accomplished.

even mlk used themes in his speeches that were almost 2000 years old. hah! some change agent he was, just recycling themes from the bible. :rofl:

this is one of the most ridiculous arguments you've stated.

[MADem]

80. You are quite right. You sure can use old words to support new ideas!

But you can't sell yourself as a NEW PRODUCT while you spout already USED and SECONDHAND ideas. You can't market your campaign as FRESH when it's 'gently used.'

That's why BO is in hot water. He claims to be original, but he is actually a reproduction. A good quality reproduction, but a reproduction nonetheless: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCE-hVYw2as

This isn't a ridiculous argument. If it were, you and everyone else jumping all over me would just ignore it and let it sink like a stone. This is resonating, and not in a good way, even if you don't want to acknowledge it.

[CreekDog]

96. representing change doesn't mean every idea and word is new

and yes, your argument is ridiculous, resonating or not, though from what i'm seeing --not.

[MADem]

98. Ahh, you didn't check the link I provided.

OK. Whatever.

My "argument" is played out on that tape. But I'm not arguing. Some truths are just self-evident.

[CreekDog]

103. my goodness, your argument is mocked on that video

not supported.

newsflash: politicians use each others words all the time, all the time. they have speechwriters who do the same, some speechwriters write for multiple politicians and almost any good one certainly will.

the argument that a politician can't offer new ideas and use text or theatrics from a past speech is patently ridiculous and if I were advising a candidate, be it Hillary OR Obama, I would never tell them not to use or reference the past in this way when it is effective to do so.

[MADem]

106. Yeah, that's why the TV is playing that "unsupported" tape all day.

Newsflash--this is the topic du jour. And not because "politicians use each other's words all the time" either.

What, you think they're showing this to demonstrate how two fellers can give the same speech and get the crowd to roar?

That's what you think? That no one is noting that BO swiped a speech that DP made two years ago?

Sorry, that does make me....laugh. Your assertion is patently absurd.

[CreekDog]

108. because it's a damned smart rejoinder to the criticism

which is essentially the same accusation leveled at both Patrick and Obama.

and media coverage of it notwithstanding, Hillary's own campaign is unwilling to say that she never did the thing she is accusing Obama of doing.

and of media coverage, before you defend it too strongly, let's talk about Hillary's tears, okay?

[MADem]

110. No one is accusing Deval of anything. Where do you get that?

What they're saying is BO lifted a speech from DP. And he's selling himself as the New Ideas Guy, and it's looking like his ideas are two years old...and borrowed.

The subject isn't the Clinton campaign. She doesn't give high falutin' speeches about hope and change, anyway. But I guess you haven't seen her appearances. She does a funny thing at these appearances--she (gasp) ANSWERS QUESTIONS that people ASK!!!

Such a concept!

Let's not talk about "Hillary's tears." Why? Because that was covered for DAYS on TV, and we've done that here too, already--if you really want to read about it, you check those DU archives. And I'm sure YOUTUBE will have some footage for you, so you can trot down memory lane.

The topic is BO's "Just Words" speech and his lifting of themes and words from the DP campaign.

You wanna discuss tears? Start a new thread. Earnest attempt at distraction, that--but I'm not buying.

[CreekDog]

114. Deval Patrick and Obama have both been criticized as being "all speeches" or "just words"

that's the accusation leveled at both of them at various times. it is no surprise they responded similarly.

i don't know how you credibly discuss this incident and lose the context of the similar parts of their speeches.

regarding the rest of your statement, let me refresh your memory on something:

In Iowa, Hillary was criticized for not doing as many small venue open forums as the other candidates. For some reason, he won Iowa not just by making speeches, but with the votes of people who typically expect to meet and talk to candidates one on one.

[MADem]

117. Uh, Obama admitted he copied the speech. It's not "similarly"

It was WORD FOR WORD. On Good Morning America today, Diane interviewed DP and she said to him that Deval ADMITTED to her that he should have credited DP. DP said "Awww, that's OK..."

But the point isn't the "Just words" as in "all speeches/no action" theme. It isn't. No one's saying that, that isn't the issue.

The point here is COPYING someone else's speech. They aren't criticizing him for being all about speeches--they're criticizing him for SWIPING a speech and passing it off as original material. So don't try to obfuscate the point with that "Just Words" argument about how he's all talk and no action.

Deval is not on the hotseat, here. Deval WON his election--that's why you're being treated to it on a NATIONAL level. Because it was so successful on a local level.

Gee, they're running the "lifted the Governor's speech" story on the news AGAIN right now...!

We aren't talking about Hillary here either--nice try. Hillary is ALWAYS criticized, for not doing enough, for doing too much, for being fat, for her hair, for her voice, you name it. There's no refreshing needed, because she catches shit from you guys continuously.

The subject here is a guy who copied, but who portrayed himself as an "original."

But hell, do anyhing and everything to avoid THAT pesky subject. Heaven forfend you have to acknowledge that your candidate is, if not an empty suit, at the minimum a bit INauthuentic.

Cognitive dissonance can be challenging to confront.

[Voltaire]

66. You are behaving like one of those people

that we don't mention here. You know the ones, the ones with the cognitive dissonance problem.

Just sayin.

[MADem]

70. I am disagreeing with you, and in response, you are personally insulting me

by insinuating that I am one of those Freepers from Free Republic.

In so doing, you are breaking DU rules.

You are also acting like a petulant child.

Now, let's see-- who is acting like one of "those" people?

Not me!

Heckuva job, there, Brownie.

You're the one with the cognitive dissonance problem, regrettably--because your "original" candidate with the "new voice" has turned out to be a xerox copy who is using Governor Patrick's words.

Just sayin'....

:crazy:

[Voltaire]

84. My candidate chose not to run

And I will reiterate that your tone and your insistence on making a mountain out of a non-issue is representative of a bitter, losing campaign. People are sick and tired of having DLC Types being shoved up their asses as candidates. Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt. I was a Dean supporter last time and had to swallow the bullshit about following the inevitable candidate Kerry, knowing full well that we had a better candidate. But the suits knew better, yessireee! So I am sitting this one out. I honestly don't think one candidate is any better than the other, to tell you the truth, but I do know the whelp of a beaten cur when I see and hear one. Both sides are guilty of doing some fairly repulsive shit, and this plagiarism crap is right up there. As if Hillary doesn't borrow other people's stuff. As IF! Christ, I heard her talking about taking our country back the other day. As a Dean supporter I know EXACTLY where that came from. And if it works for her, fine.....its a NON-ISSUE. And you and the other Clinton supporters pissing and moaning about it is just like THEM!

Just sayin.

[MADem]

95. A mountain out of a non-issue. You keep saying that, yet it is all over the news.

It's on morning radio, too. It was covered on CSPAN this morning.

Gee, are we supposed to put our fingers in our ears and 'pretend' that these things aren't being covered, just because they make some acolytes uncomfortable? That IS drinking the KoolAid, that kind of denial.

This isn't a mole hill. It's in heavy rotation today, along with the video. Just because some people don't like it, that doesn't give them the right to "pretend" the story isn't being covered.

And my "tone"--like it or not, believe it or not--is conversational. I'm not "pissing and moaning." I am calmly noting, nothing more.

The strident tones are coming from the acolytes who are hell bent on insulting me simply because they don't care for what I am saying.

You can distract with commentary about "DLC types" being shoved up asses, but that's not the issue today. It really isn't. The issue today is that BO passed off DP's ideas, speeches, campaign strategy and trajectory, and even his damn sign design, as his own. He took a state campaign, retooled it, and rolled it out as a national product. And he expected the guppies in the national pond to bite as eagerly as we did here in MA.

[Voltaire]

99. Just because it is covered doesn't mean it is relevant

I'm all about the relevance, and this ain't. Not with all the real issues around. I don't care if God herself says its relevant, it still won't make it so. We should be discussing real issues. Not this piddling bullshit.

[MADem]

101. How do you get people to stop and not listen to it, just because YOU don't like it?

You aren't being realistic.

Britney Spears isn't 'relevant,' and she gets headlines and airtime.

But this IS relevant. Senator Obama passed himself and his campaign off as something other that what was reality. That is important, even if you don't think so.

I didn't start this thread. You wanna be annoyed, get pissed at the OP for that 'Sky Is Falling' Mega-Whine that invited this sort of commentary.

And if it bothers you so much, there is always that HIDE THREAD business. It works.

[Voltaire]

109. Heh heh heh...you are right about one thing

I am not being realistic. Not in this stupid-assed country.

But I am right. And I am smart enough in America to realize that being right doesn't mean a damned thing. Helluva shame.

[XemaSab]

128. What homie really doesn't want to admit is that Obama ripped off a campaign all right:

Clinton '92.

[totodeinhere]

120. Obama didn't fuck up.

Obama's detractors are grasping at any straw that they can find to stop Obama's momentum. Of course Obama can be the candidate of new ideas and draw upon the wisdom of others at the same time. Having new ideas doesn't mean the you close your eyes to the world.

As far as "rats" and "shrill" being terms that the GOP uses goes, excuse me but I try not to expose myself to any GOP propaganda so I wouldn't even know about that. And actually "rats deserting a sinking ship" is an English idiom that has it's origin in ancient Roman literature. And as far as I know the GOP wasn't around back then. LOL.

[MADem]

144. If you remain "unexposed" to those terms, you're living in a cave or a car trunk.

Sorry if I looks askance at your wide-eyed insistence that these terms are "new" to your delicately innocent eyes and ears.

And if they are, you are, at a minimum, politically naive. In the extreme.

[totodeinhere]

145. The GOP didn't invent the English language.

The GOP didn't invent the English language and I should be able to choose my own words with out the thought police following me around. It's pathetic. I will continue to say what I please without Googling my phraseology to see if a Republican ever used that phrase in the last 100 years. Give me a frigging break.

[MADem]

146. No, but they did re-invent the meaning of one word you used, and

apply the other word as a rhyme to a certain female presidential candidate. Frequently. Aggressively.

But thanks for "raising the level of discourse" around here. What you do is noted.

[totodeinhere]

147. I can't help it who reinvents the meaning of any words that I use.

Just because they do that it doesn't remove that word from the dictionary and it doesn't mean that I can't use it. I am not going to let either Republicans or you tell me what phraseology I can use and what I can't use, thank you very much.

[MADem]

149. Oh, you're MORE than welcome...

And I'm more than welcome to form an opinion based on your responses.

Which I've done.

[durrrty libby]

23. MADem nailed it but blind cultists refuse to see. Enjoy more Kool-Aid. Glug glug

[JTFrog]

26. That boomarang has already returned home.

Not only was it a swing and miss on Obama, but the blowback is going to hurt.

The author described the writing process as follows:

"The First Lady, Hillary Clinton, is the one, predictably, people still bring up to this day. The actual writing experience of working on It Takes a Village with Mrs. Clinton was not extraordinary in any respect. Together with our editor, we produced drafts in a round-robin style. We worked well as a team and things went about as smoothly as can be expected when you're producing a high-profile book in eight months and one of you is married to the leader of the free world. The problem came when Mrs. Clinton decided, for reasons still a mystery to me, not to acknowledge my help, or that of anyone else by name. Because the White House had issued a press release early on in the process stating that I had been hired to "help prepare the manuscript," when it was finished and there was no mention of me in the acknowledgments, the anti-Clinton forces went to town. The irony was that by not acknowledging me, rather than diminishing my role, she unwittingly elevated me to a sort of literary Joan of Arc with the likes of everyone from Don Imus to Maureen Dowd to Rush Limbaugh weighing in before Thank-YouGate blew over. Pundits had a field day opining how much of the book she had actually written."



http://www.awpwriter.org/magazine/writers/btodd01.htm

[MADem]

30. Keep pulling that six year old article out. Say--Is she reading it on the campaign trail?

Did she not give the proceeds to charity?

Do you actually think Barbara Bush wrote every line of the MILLIE dog books, too?

Is her campaign called the "It Takes A Village" campaign?

No, it isn't.

Nice try, though.

I got some bad news for you. They aren't talking about this on TV or radio today. Oh, well.

[JTFrog]

33. I think it will show in the results later this evening.

Good luck to your candidate! :)

[MADem]

36. Time will tell.

The first one to get to 2025 owns that nomination!! And NOT before!

[CreekDog]

61. so since her copying was 10 years old, it no longer matters?

but Obama using lines from a friend and fellow politician's speech, some of which they wrote together, who did not want credit for it --you criticize that and yet your candidate is off limits for something worse --because the accusation is not current.

WTFE.

[MADem]

73. Did you read what I wrote? Apparently not.

Further, where's the lawsuit from the aggrieved co-author? Or was the co-author just an editor with an overinflated sense of importance? No one is asserting that she COPIED, BTW--this individual wants co-author credit. Not the same kettle of fish at all.

And is Senator Clinton reading this book from the podium at her campaign stops? NO? So why would it be germane....hmmmmm?

The diversionary tactic is unsuccessful, but noted.

Here, watch some YOUTUBE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCE-hVYw2as

[JeanGrey]

40. Oooooh yes and he wrote that awful kindergarden paper,

as well, don't forget that!! (you guys are unreal)

[MADem]

43. I realize you're trying, earnestly, to "deflect" the subject matter, but no one cares about his

kindergarten paper, except perhaps to say "Awww. Cute. Smart kid!"

What they do care about, though, is that he copied his friend's campaign, down to the slogans and the speeches and even the sign colors. Yes, We Can!! Just Words!

It's an ISSUE. The ones that are "unreal" are the people who are pretending it's just an unimportant little blip.

This guy is passing himself off as an original, when what he's playing is a taller, thinner, paler copy of Governor Deval Patrick.

[JeanGrey]

121. IT IS NONSENSE. And it won't help.

[texas_indy]

119. next week they'll claim he copied that from the kid in the next desk!! (nt)

Texas is coming home to OBAMA!!!

GOBAMA!!

[JeanGrey]

122. It wouldn't surprise me.

[NJmaverick]

51. Thank you for telling us what we are thinking

I didn't think the Clinton camp believed in ESP. Still this Swift Boating of Obama may provide some short term gains for Clinton, but it's going to hurt her in the long run. Her behavior has been so morally reprehensible that I could NEVER vote for her, in good conscience. I will either not vote or vote third party if she wins the nomination. I don't care if she is liberal or a democrat. NOTHING good comes form putting a person completely lacking in characters and devoid of honor, in the White House, doesn't matter what their ideology or party is.

[MADem]

55. It's not swift boating. I give you facts, you give me childish attitude.

And so you're one of the "I could NEVER vote for her!" daytime soap opera Emmy Award Winners, too, eh? Does a flounce come with that?

Well, guess what? I'll hold my nose and vote for BO if he gets the nom. And I don't think he's a very good candidate. But I do believe in party loyalty.

Guess that makes you MUCH more of a selfish, self-centered asshole than I am! EH?

You gather up your little ball and stomp off home now!! Oh, and feel SMUG about it, too! When you cast your self-righteous, useless third party vote, you be sure to tell Ralph Nader that Al Gore says 'Hi!' "Fuck YOU, Ralph!"

:rofl:

[NJmaverick]

56. Yes it is Swift Boating- Hilarry and Company LIED

They lied about the plagerism charges. They, and their followers repeated the lies over and over again, until the MSM picked up the story. That is a text book case of Swift Boating. As for your complaints about me not supporting a dishonest, immoral and unethical candidate, sorry. I have my own morals and principles I have to stay true to. I could understand your contempt for such ideals, after all you support Hillary, but I would appreciate if you didn't mock them.

[MADem]

68. Here ya go. Unless this is created at Industrial Light and Magic....

you can see it with your own lying eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCE-hVYw2as

He brought it ON HIMSELF.

And "Hillary and Company" did not LIE. So cut with the bullshit drama.

Swift Boating, my ass.

Fast talking, more like.

I don't appreciate your contempt for facts, but I certainly diddn't get all huffy with you like you are trying to with me. It didn't work, BTW. Your high dudgeon failed to move me, and it just showed me that there's no distance an acolyte will not go to when "the Messiah" is challenged.

Funny, my "morals" and "ethics" and oh, my "ideals" include simple things like not taking OTHER PEOPLE's WORDS, themes, and ideas and pretending they are my own. Even if someone says I'm "allowed" to copy them.

When you pass yourself off as an original, a NEW voice, you should be original, and your NEW VOICE should be your own.

But I guess in Messiahville, those 'moral' goalposts are quite moveable and those 'ideals' are completely flexible.

[D23MIURG23]

139. Oh, baloney

There aren't that many sale-able ideas in politics. No one but an idiot would believe Obama invented the idea of running on "change" or "hope", and HRC isn't the first to run on "experience" either.

I'll believe Obama's bubble is bursting when he isn't drowning out Clinton's slime tactics with 17 point wins in states that were supposed to be close.

[usregimechange]

12. She would do so before losing, I think she has shown that

[theHandpuppet]

13. Wow -- I think any woman who can wield that much power...

... should certainly be President of the United States!

[MediaBabe]

57. That's just what I was thinking

[Autumn]

148. Love that!!

But I think our party is stronger than that.

[islandmkl]

16. Hey Clintons:

It's not the WORDS...it's the MESSAGE!

[Dawgs]

19. Thank you. You saved me five minutes this morning, as I was going to start a very similar thread.

[Marrah_G]

25. Thank you for your concern about the Democratic Party n/t

[terrya]

32. You need a hug

And here it is:

:hug:

[global1]

34. I Think You Hit The Nail On The Head About HRC Positioning For 2012.......

I hate to say this but - I believe that her aspirations to become president are so visceral that she would do anything to become president - even if it meant sinking her competition so that she could come back in 2012 with a smarter campaign and win. So knowing now that Obama seemingly has the momentum to take the nomination - the thinking is how can we set him up to lose or look bad - so that we can say "I told you so" and become the heir apparent in 2012.

However, I also believe that on the Repug side the same thing is happening. I believe that Bush Sr. half heartedly endorsed McCain yesterday but said some things that might make it hard for McCain to rally the party. He didn't have to endorse McCain as there is no way McCain is not going to be the Repug nominee. I think Bush Sr. knows that the Repugs are going to have to sit at least the next 4 years out. So being a benevolent politician he can come back in 4 years and say how great he was for endorsing McCain. He can say - "Too bad McCain didn't win it for us - but I was behind him - so now let's put our support behind someone we know can win it for us." In so doing this endorsement - I believe that the ultimate goal of Bush Sr. was/is to set up 2012 for his son - Jeb.

Unfortunately - both of these going on at the same time don't bode well for HRC as this country is ready for a 'major course change' and BO is positioned to make that happen - especially if the Repugs can't get it together.

So either the HRC campaign fights to Denver and muscles the win from BO or she bows out gracefully and goes back and adds another 4 or 8 years to her 35 years of experience. She then becomes the world's best Senate Majority Leader and makes it hard for BO to get anything accomplished during his term. This keeps her in the game and viable for 2012 or if not successful at subverting BO - 2018.

I afraid for Hillary's sake that if the HRC campaign tries to muscle a win in Denver - that may cast a pall over HRC's chances in the future if it sinks the Dem party in any way. It would be seen as disloyal and could be the end of her dream.

The powers at be that want to continue the Bush - Clinton - Bush - Clinton - Bush dynasty - gave her her shot. Bush Sr. is already moving on to position Jeb for the next Bush in line - can't be bothered by the fact that the Clinton's didn't hold up their end of the dynasty this go round.

As Joe Scarborough would say - "That's Politics".

[TexasObserver]

37. Hillary is about Hillary. Expecting her to think beyond the image in the mirror is unrealistic.

She's Walter Mondale in a pantsuit and an out of control ego, without all that charisma.

[DemGa]

41. I have the same fear about the sham Obama

What happens when the man behind the format to get elected is revealed?

[MADem]

88. They should've run Deval Patrick--at least he delivered the lines more convincingly!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCE-hVYw2as

:rofl:

The man behind the format=Hit Nail On Head!

[Medusa]

46. It's all or nothing for the Clinton's

and if that means sinking the Dems chances of winning in November, so be it. That's the way they roll.

[NJmaverick]

53. The only positive thing about the whole thing

Is that it will battle harden Obama. If he can weather the Clinton onslaught, he can handle anything Rove and the Republicans can dream up or throw at him.

[MediaBabe]

62. Are you serious?

Is the very first election you ever were interested in? These cotton balls are child's play compared to the stuff that went around in 2000 and 2004. Or do you really believe the shit back then was justified and Gore was a compulsive liar and Kerry the worst serviceman since Benedict Arnold?

[NJmaverick]

67. I have been voting since 1981

So your attempts to spin what camp Clinton has done, are lost on me.

[MediaBabe]

75. My "attempts to spin what camp Clinton has done"???

What spin attempts? You're funny.

But I see you're serious, just not very smart. You may have been voting since 1981 but you sure weren't paying any attention to the campaigns if you think these soft ball lobs are anything like the hell Kerry and Gore and even McCain went through in the past.

And then there is the eight year long barrage the Clintons were under in the 90s. But you think that was bunny poo compared to what poor Obama has suffered, don't you?

[NJmaverick]

100. If you are as smart as you think you are

You wouldn't be calling me stupid. Anyone with even half a brain, knows that doesn't make anyone receptive to one's message. To be honest I am offended by your disingenuous attempts to legitimize your point of view, by trying to attack me at a personal level. It's a sign of someone who knows that their message or view point can't stand on its own merits I am afraid your attempts to minimize the unethical and immoral behavior are futile. Nothing you could possibly say would get me to give up my principles.

[MediaBabe]

102. I cede!

Your big words have impelled me into submission. :wow: :party: :crazy: :silly: :freak: :dunce:

[demokatgurrl]

48. I am very afraid the party is already sunk.

I mean,look what's going on. It started in 2000, when the DNC chairman was among the first to tell Al Gore to "move on". No, wait, before the election it started when Democrats could not understand that a vote for Nader was a vote for Bush. No, wait, it started in 1992 when the DEMOCRATS in congress could not get behind the first Democratic president elected in 16 years.

It continued in 2004 when the party didn't have the balls to really fight the swiftboaters from all fronts and left John Kerry to take the shit by himeself.

Then this year the brilliant DNC decided that the best way to flex its muscles (which I never realized it even had) against two "rogue" states who had the unmitigated gall to try to move up their primary elections so they would mean something would be to punish the voters by taking away their votes, rather than slap the party officials who went along with the stupid "Rules" and then decided to ignore them.

It gets worse every year. The party is halfway down the toilet already. If I didn't have a visceral repulsion to Republicans I'd join their party because at least they know how to stick together not matter what asshole they nominate.

[rodeodance]

49. Don't worry your little head---its all an illusion from the bubble you are in.

[MediaBabe]

54. The most powerful woman on the planet

You must think Hillary Clinton is so very powerful to believe she could take down an entire political party by herself. That certainly brings the question - Why would you not want such a powerful woman in the White House? Such power is what we need right now to defeat the Republicans and right the wrongs that have been done these past eight years.

Go Hillary!

[NJmaverick]

58. Destruction has been proven to be very easy

Construction on the other hand, has proven the be extremely difficult.

[calico1]

104. Well, and why not?

I mean, she singlehandedly started the war in Iraq, didn't she?

:eyes:

[rodeodance]

59. No, it is Obama/campers urging Repugs to vote for Obama in the primaries is what

is scary--.

They will not vote for him in Nov.

[CookCountyResident]

64. Clinton Plans to Target Obama's Pledged Delegates

Clinton Plans to Target Obama's Pledged Delegates

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/02/19/clinton_plans_to_target_obamas_pledged_delegates.html

Sen. Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign "intends to go after delegates whom Barack Obama has already won in the caucuses and primaries if she needs them to win the nomination," Roger Simon reports.

"This strategy was confirmed to me by a high-ranking Clinton official on Monday. And I am not talking about superdelegates, those 795 party big shots who are not pledged to anybody. I am talking about getting pledged delegates to switch sides."

The reason: "Pledged delegates are not really pledged at all, not even on the first ballot. This has been an open secret in the party for years, but it has never really mattered because there has almost always been a clear victor by the time the convention convened."

[angie_love]

69. can you post this on a thread by itself? it deserves to be read. I just can't believe this.

[CookCountyResident]

86. Go here - article has been posted!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4657622

[ElsewheresDaughter]

72. and Obama has been doing the same thing

[ElsewheresDaughter]

71. another cicada .....gt'damn they sure are noice makers eh?

[HeraldSquare212]

74. I think the superdelegates will be very vocal with her about not doing that

and if they think she's gone too far they'll abandon her and sink her campaign even before OH, TX or PA.

[Maribelle]

77. Florida: McCain: 53% Obama: 37% (i'm afraid you're wrong about Clinton)

[themaguffin]

78. Really one state? WOW

[thesubstanceofdreams]

79. PA, NV, CO, MN, WI, OR: Obama leads McPain by big margins, Hillary trails

Dems can win the GE without FL. You tell me how dems are supposed to win the GE without PA, NV, CO, MN, WI and OR.

[Maribelle]

85. So then you agree Hillary is not sinking the dem party in those states, correct?

"sinking" being the operative

[polichick]

82. The Clinton campaign is looking pretty ugly...

But I think people have had enough ~ it's only making Obama look that much better!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

107. not a fraction as ulgy as this.....

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/01/14/obama-nevada-flyer-you-can-be-a-democrat-for-one-day

[Raffi Ella]

83. Riiight

While Obama disparages the Party(Raygun remarks)using every rovian trick in the book against their own,ANd Michelle encourages infighting and division "Don't know if I can support Hillary if she wins the nomination!" and their supporters are throwing any and ALL Dem's under the bus that dare speak out against or ask questions of Barack....

Right,it's HILLARY that is gonna sink the Party.UNREAL,what dream land are you living in that you can circle round and make Hillary the bad guy here?

Barack had no business even throwing his hat in the ring at this time.Unqualified doesn't even BEGIN to describe him!Had it been Hillary with no resume to speak of talking Hope "y'all need HOPE!!" she woulda been laughed of the national stage.

Hillary is not only more Qualified to run this country but her historic run has been shattered by this undeserving man and his wife.THEY are a danger to the Party,not the toughest fiercest DEMOCRAT in the game named Hillary.
The One that OBAMA has used the race card against! causing division in such down and dirty low ball politics that nobody can even mention race without being called a racist while Obama and his crew have been dog whistling to the masses about race since day one!!

Get real.If Obama had done what's right for The Party he woulda never even entered this election.SOME body woulda had it locked by now and we would be united with a QUALIFIED Candidate.

As it stands Obama with his rhetoric and entirely plagiarized Campaign have turned this party against itself and ENCOURAGED infighting in a year when the nation was aching for a Democratic President and out in record numbers at Mid Terms here comes UNQUALIFIED Barack to shatter all that and confuse the issue.

Obama is a danger to to the Party end of subject.

[workinclasszero]

89. Me too

Using rethug's own swiftboating websites to attack Obama is a damn outrage! The filth the Hillbots are spewing is coming directly from RNC headquarters it seems.

Hillary is losing ugly and will try to upend the convention in the end. This is only the beginning of the Clinton's scorched earth policy.

If the DLC cant capture the nomination, they will help their business allies in the rethug party get it!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

91. Wahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! Oh Get Over It.

Your messiah has flaws. Don't let it hurt you so deeply.

[JorgeTheGood]

92. there is little doubt left

that the dems will lose the white house this year. We are simply too divided with Obama calling for his backers to not vote for Hillary and probably vice versa. The real concern is holding on to the senate and that now looks like it's also slipping away -- regardless of what the polls read ... low dem turnout hands the senate back to the republcans ... simple as that.

To answer the original question ... YES, the dem party appears to be going down big time but it's not just Hillary's fault. The Obama people have to share the blame ... they contributed just as much hate as the Hillary camp. Putting that aside ... it's a shame the dems lost that ANYBODY BUT A REPUBLICAN feeling and dedication. If we don't wise up, Grover can start filling that bath tub and instead of using it on government, use it on the dem party.

President John McCain -- not much we can do to stop it now.

[gristy]

112. This is a concern?

with Obama calling for his backers to not vote for Hillary

[ElsewheresDaughter]

105. Obama will get FULL credit for that, my friend.....see here......

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/01/14/obama-nevada-flyer-you-can-be-a-democrat-for-one-day

[gristy]

111. You overestimate the strength of Clinton's line and underestimate the seaworthiness of Obama's ship

That line is going to snap soon enough, and with minimal impact to the ObamaShip. :D

[rinsd]

116. Lots of concern trolls lately.

[meow mix]

118. ive been concerned of this too

hillary is going really badly..

[Cha]

123. Nah, we're gonna kick 'er

off the boat.

[eridani]

124. How is that different from the Dean morphing into Osama in 2004?

I don't like it either, but this stuff has always gone on.

[IamyourTVandIownyou]

130. There appears to be a flood on Clinton Street.

nt

[BootinUp]

131. But it was ok when

an Obama surrogate said on TV that Hillary has the Democrats Disease? Right?

That should help the party. I've heard prospective nominees for our party say that kind of thing before. :eyes:

[TheDonkey]

132. this debate scares me. How far will she go trying to destroy the democratic party

slash and burn politics on the 90s

[workinclasszero]

135. The debates..

Jeez Hillary may come out wild eyed with a slime-filled flame thrower aimed at Obama.

Her campaign is in its death throes, who knows what the woman will do?:scared:

[SecularNATION]

133. Democrats Second

The Clintons only care about themselves. The interests of the Democratic Party voters, and the citizens of the United States, come in a distant second. They didn't want Kerry to win in 2004, because they coveted 2008. And when she loses, not if, they'll do nothing to help Obama. They want another shot in 2012.

[meow mix]

134. its now proven, clintons only care for themselves

certainly not us..

[AlertLurker]

136. Please stop smoking thesubstanceofdreams. That shit'll KILL YA.

She's in for the long haul. She's not that far down and has a better thn average chance in TX, OH and PA.

I really wish these "child-zombies from planet Barak" would give it a rest...



"It ain't over 'til it's over" -- Yogi Berra

[thesubstanceofdreams]

137. Thanks for the insults

"child-zombie" huh?
And thanks for convincingly proving my point.

[AlertLurker]

138. You're welcome. I call 'em as I see 'em.

[rodeodance]

141. get a grip.

[Iceburg]

142. She must be very powerful ... Obama should concede now./nt