WP + Gore Vidal: Dean is a Marion "Hero"! "Draft-dodging actor."

[Myra]

I must say, I rarely find myself in agreement with that venerable
right wing rag, the Washington Post.

But given what I know about John Wayne, I'd have to agree that
Dean is the archetypal "John Wayne hero."

"In the three years that I spent in the army, I heard no soldier express a patriotic sentiment;
rather the reverse, when we saw the likes of Errol Flynn on the screen winning freedom's war,
or, even worse, John Wayne, known to us by his real name, Marion,
the archetypal draft-dodging actor
who, to rub it in, impersonated a Flying Tiger in the movies."

-Gore Vidal, Dreaming War, Nation Books, 2002

[Fleshdancer]

1. Well thank you for such a neccessary post

:eyes:

If Dean is the "Marion Hero", then why was Bush the one posing in the flight suit?

Dean never served in the military, but he never played dress up and pretended he did either. Sorry but the analogy is idiotic and wrong. Try again.

[Bombtrack]

17. but he also disrespectfully paints his democratic opponents as cowards

People like Clark and Kerry, who did serve and survive traumatic experiences so people like Dean did not have to. Who then faught the good fight their whole lives (Kerry, as DA, Lt. Governor, and senator) (Clark, using his brilliance and talents to serve his country for far less pay and with far less personal freedom than he could have elswhere)

and he also paints people like Edwards, as one, a man who overcame the loss of his son to run for the senate in a conservative state with no political experience as a populist democrat

[Fleshdancer]

49. Dean isn't the only Democrat labeling his opponents as cowards

Many people here on DU thought it was cowardly for many of the Democrats in congress to not question many of Bush's questionable policies after 9/11, especially the Iraqi War. Dean is hardly alone on this one. What do you want him to say? "Oh yes, the Democrats are doing a splendid job. Let's not change a thing because losing control of the WH, Senate, and House is great!"

I applaud the service of both Clark and Kerry...just as I applaud the service of all our troops and veterans including my own family members. However, I think it's a bit hypocritical to spout out the same crap the right wingers did about Clinton in '92. It was okay for Clinton to not go to Vietnam but somehow Dean should be labeled a draft dodger? We either accept that there are good men who didn't go to Vietnam or we don't.

As far as Dean painting people like Edwards as a populist democrat...I have no idea what you're talking about. But yes, Edwards had the horrid experience of losing his son which I imagine one can never overcome, but I don't understand how it fits into this debate. All candidates, like all humans, endure tragedy in their lives unfortunately and attempting to win the "who had it worse" game is pointless. No one has it perfect.

[demnan]

2. I have to call you down on this one

You can't take two totally unconnected things and connect them in order to insult Dean.

You imply that Gore Vidal said that Dean is an "archetypal draft-dodging actor" when in fact you are saying it.

I imagine that Vidal might be somewhat suspicious, as am I, that Clark would be as war-mongering as his appearances on CNN during the Spring and Summer were.

[Myra]

8. Hey, I'm just agreeing with a WP column that was quoted here.

And fleshing out the real "John Wayne."

If you don't like the comparison, you can write to
Harold Meyerson at the WP.

[dave29]

58. John Wayne could answer a question directly

Clark still has some work to do here. Don't get me wrong, still love the guy.

[mouse7]

63. ...and you were completely powerless in reposting it?

So the cut and pastes, typing, and linking jumped out of your hands into the keyboard with no conscious control of your own, huh? There's a diagnosis that covers that.

[jmaier]

23. Myra

Here is one Clark supporter who is ashamed of this post. Gore Vidal wasn't talking about Dean. You've stretched to make an association only so you could smear a candidate by implication.

Despite the indefensible actions here of some supporters,



Wes Clark will make an extraordinary American President.

[Myra]

37. I totally understand and respect that jmaier

But, if Dean succeeds in winning the nomination,
then this is exactly what we can expect.
Multiplied a million times over.
Whether us peaceniks like it or not, Bush has dragged us into "war."
He is now the strutting crowing wartime Commander and Chief.
Even though he went AWOL from the National Guard, the media
will discretely ignore that, as they did in 2000.
They won't ignore it from the Dem candidate.
They will rip Dean apart, and he doesn't have the temperment
to withstand it. He doesn't have the background to withstand it.
He doesn't have the rhetorical skills to withstand it.

[w4rma]

51. Is that because you'll provide it? (n/t)

[mouse7]

64. Ahh, I see, then I can call Clark a #^*%$^% (&*&%$#

Ahhh... that's different, huh?

How?

[Raya]

3. Link Please

[Myra]

7. It's a quote from the book "Dreaming War" Raya

I gave the title and author in the original post.

Not everything is a "link."
In the beginning, there were books...

[retyred]

9. Wow

<Not everything is a "link."
In the beginning, there were books...>

Now that was good.


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[Myra]

10. Thanks retyred.

And it's a good book.

[OrAnarch]

4. You don't have to unjustly murder people in a jungle to be a "hero"

Staying home, dodging the draft to an unjust massacare of the innocent, and defending liberalism is heroic. The army probably never taught you that, but I will.

[Myra]

13. You don't need to teach me about patriotism OrAnarch

And has Dean ever said that he avoided the draft in protest
of an unjust war? I thought he said:

"I took a physical, I failed a physical.
If that makes this an issue, then so be it."

Was Dean a Conscientious Objector like Muhammad Ali?
'Cause I'd totally respect that.
If he actually took a stand on the issue of that war,
I'd very much respect that.

[meow mix]

15. me too =)

he certainly made out like he wanted to go, intended to go.
maybe...
cant really tell for sure. wish i could though!

[Myra]

28. You too meow? I would totally respect someone, like Ali, who behaved

As a leader. Who did what their conscience said to do and made
no excuses. There is bravery in that. And leadership potential.

[OrAnarch]

29. Far more of a leader than someone who went, I agree...

So, why aren't you supporting Ali in 2004 instead of someone who was manipulated into participating in utter murder?

[meow mix]

34. how would that scenario

bring us closer to solving the mystery of deans motivation for
dodging the draft.

i would still be wondering about that...

[OrAnarch]

36. No one would of course know...

But Dean. but I stand by another post below, that in such a war:

"My scale is to label protesting commendable, not fighting permissable, and participating condemable."

Hands down, I believe the true progressives who are not worried about pandering to the right would at least label any such action permissable and not condemable (as would be participating in that unjust attrocity).


So in conclusion, no reason to negatively connotate draft dodgers, who are leaps and bounds above those who went and never apologized for such actions.

[bearfartinthewoods]

52. bull...if he was interested in serving ,

there were other options. or does the peace corp have the same medical requirements?

instead he went skiing.

[OrAnarch]

20. Not fighting in that BS war...

...is a stand enough, and Ill give him props for that. He on that issue alone has a lot more going for him than people who did otherwise, who unpatriotically and blindly killed in the name of America's elite.

My scale is to label protesting commendable, not fighting permissable, and participating condemable. But Im sure you are far more intrested in finding the man to pander to the misinformed and ignorant public's opinion of war, rather than teach them unjust war is wrong to participate in from any perspective.

[shance]

40. Myra - how many Republican leaders made it to Vietnam? They supported it.

n/t

[Bombtrack]

22. I guess JFK and George Washington were murderers as well

in a democracy, when a government persues a foriegn policy a people can chose to elect new leaders to abandon that foriegn policy, or not. And when a democratic government decides to go to war, whether, everyone agrees with it or not, there are those who serve and those who do not. The soldiers who fight their governments war are taking orders from their government. The soldiers who faught were not murderers.

[OrAnarch]

25. Some were and some were not murderers

On the job description, it is about defending their country and constitution, not imperialistically taking over other people and killing foreigners. When participating in an unjust foreign war, they are unpatriotically neglecting their duty as American soldiers, as well as irresponsibly acting as tools of the elite. Soldiers who do that do not serve America and the people as they should, but only the rich and powerful. They are still humans and can still think, and hence, have no excuse for their personal transgressions. The soldiers who participate in such unjust attrocities are murderers and should be personally responsible for their actions. The patriotic soldier puts down their gun and goes home, exercising his human ability to think (that which separates us from animals). Please do not equate such fine servicemen to animals and assert they have no ability to exercise complex cognition!

[Bombtrack]

31. "puts down their gun and goes home" it wasn't that simple

actually, it was impossible to that. And many would have had if they could.

[OrAnarch]

33. Its actually pretty damn simple...

Because humans are not puppets, robots, or autonomon, we can basically decide to do anything we want, of course with all those actions being subject to emotions such as fear, guilt, misunderstanding, etc.

For example...pick up a gun. Go somewhere. Put it down. Now drive back home. Simple, you see.

For those of them that were conned, etc, last thing Id expect or condone was another 34 years of making it easier for people like bush to kill Foreigners. But all this has gotten quite off topic from this slanderous thread.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OrAnarch]

44. Grab a boat,

or head east, or simply don't go in the first place. Do anything. TRY ANYTHING. With a will, no one had to stay or go, period. Geography would not keep me anywhere, Iraq or Nam.

[Bombtrack]

48. you know why I'm going to end this argument?

because even the most fringe DUers (most of them anyway) aren't as deluded as you when it comes to this point. Bye

[corporatewhore]

38. Such great show of solidarity with the working class

Many of my relatives were used as tools of the elite.Vietnam was a rich white mans war and they used poor brown people as pawns.They were able to get out of it because of their personal wealth.I know that i have an uncle who was able to make it to mexico to stay with some relatives but others were not able to way to have solidarity with the elite weaseling out and goin skiing.Why dont you try to show solidarity for the opressed working class who were FORCED and USED by the ruling class who did rebel during and after.I could respect howard dean for concientiously objecting but he weaseld out with a rich boys cop out and mostlikely a poor person had to take his place

[OrAnarch]

41. My father was poor...

..and he took no one's place, nor did he weaslel out rich boy style as he had no money. It doesn't take money or power to get a medical defirment, and hence, he lived while most of his friends died or blew their head off upon return. But with enough will, no one had to go.

For those who were manipulated and realize it now, I highly respect apologetic sentiments. For those who are not sorry now, manipulated or not, that is who I am targeting.


In essence all I am really saying is that dodging the draft deserves abolutely no negative connotation, while participating in foreign slaughter, fooled into such or not, is a morally questionable and condemnable activity. No one HAD to go or HAD to stay, period.

[BobbyJay]

5. Washington TIMES = rightwing garbage

The Washington Post is good.

[mitchtv]

6. sorry , I don't buy it,

Negativity will get you nowhere , except the republic party friends list. I am a Democrat, not a Dean supporter, but I can do without Clark, if that kind of post makes you think it will help him. It hurts us all, take it to FR.

[dkf]

11. Don't you think you are stretching things a little too far?

Sad sad sad.

BTW, I bet you're a Clark supporter.

Edit: Couldn't see your avatar when I was responding to your post but looked back and there it was.

[Bombtrack]

12. The WP isn't a right-wing rag

it suffers from all the biases of the mainstream media, laziness, pack-like mentality, etc. But I wouldn't call it right-wing. I think that just makes someone sound like sort of an extremist.

ps. that doesn't mean it's liberal either

[jonnyblitz]

14. good explanation of WP

I completely agree with your description.

[wyldwolf]

16. My opinion of this post:

I expected to see an article where Gore Vidal called Howard Dean a Marion "Hero" and "Draft-dodging actor."

[carolinayellowdog]

18. Who named Dean? Vidal? The Post? Myra?

Hey,

I see no mention of Dean in the quote, and don't have the book. Could you explain how Dean got involved in this? Because Vidal said he was like Marion? Because someone at the Post quoted Vidal on Wayne and said it reminded him or her of Dean? Because you saw the Vidal quote on Wayne in the Post and it reminded *you* of Dean?

A little context would be appreciated.

CYD

[Myra]

26. Sorry carolinayellowdog, at the time the other thread was prominent

The one celebrating the Washington Post column
"Dean and the Duke"

"I've got this Howard Dean problem, and it's not that I think he's George McGovern. Actually, I think he's John Wayne..."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43182-2003Dec30.html

The columnist, Harold Meyerson, is either unaware of Marion's
actual history, which is very different from the history of
tough guy actor "John Wayne," or he's ignoring his actual history.

[Rose Siding]

60. When there is no actual occasion to insult Howard Dean,

(that's all it is- an insult, not part of any political discussion)one will be invented. Very creative and disruptive and divisive, imo.

[burning bush]

19. Information is NOT Knowledge nt

[Myra]

21. "Knowledge is good."

Animal House

[Duder]

24. Gore Vidal on Clark:

"I don't like these men of great accomplishment who've accomplished nothing, and who mean nothing."

[Cannikin]

27. Now lets talk about what Vidal said about Bush....

THATS the good stuff...

[Myra]

53. Of course he never said that about Clark.

But I have tickets to see Vidal on the 22nd, so I'll try to
ask him what he thinks.

[worldgonekrazy]

56. Maybe THEN you can tell us w/o lying

But I'm not going to hold my breath. Your willingness to stretch and distort the truth so much in this thread doesn't give me much confidence in your credibility.

[Duder]

59. Yes, he did say that about Clark

For some things there's links:

http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/lydon/2003/12/23

[FubarFly]

61. Interesting link.

Vidal trashes b*sh, Dean, Clark, and Kucinich. All in the same paragraph. Hope he doesn't start posting at DU. :scared: ;-)

Of the living, Vidal speaks nothing but evil. "The cheerleader from Andover" is the worst of a very bad lot. Howard Dean "assessed the unpopularity of the war, but you can't just do anger at the war. For a second act, why not restore the Constitution and the Bill of Rights? Take your stand on the recovery of our liberties." Wesley Clark's resume is too long: "I don't like these men of great accomplishment who've accomplished nothing, and who mean nothing." Of Dennis Kucinich: "The hair is deplorable... but it's the only negative thing I can say about him."

[edzontar]

30. Nothing is more disgusting than these Dean draft-dodging threads

I wonder how many of the misguided people who post this garbage were even alive during the Vietnam war?

Or ever had there name pulled by the draft board?

Or ever fought in Vietnam, or knew anyone who fought, or knew anyone who was killed there, or wounded?

Or knew anyone who marched in protest against that war (many of them veterans)?

Or knew anyone shot dead or wounded by the NG for protesting against the war--or for just standng arund near the protest?

I wonder how many of these peopel wold have the guts to fight in aNY war, or have the guts put their lives and career on the line to oppose an unjust war like Vietnam, or Iraq for that matter?

These threads are disgusting, and those who post them in the name of General Clark are doing him a gross disservice.

After reading something like this, I almost hope that Bush gets re-electd, re-institutes the draft, and calls the bunch of you up to Iraq.

[Hep]

32. Some of us were talking about this earlier.

how odd it is that the RW suddenly gains credibility when they say something the left agrees with. No wonder they're so powerful.

[Myra]

35. Well, I just heard back from the columnists, Harold Meyerson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harold Meyerson" <[e-mail]>
To: (me)
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 12:44 PM
Subject: RE: Dean is the Marion Hero!


Of course, Wayne's "military service" applies to George W. more clearly than it does to Dean.

Thanks for the note, and happy new year -

Harold Meyerson

[Cannikin]

43. And those who cannot do...critique!

[jaysunb]

39. Your post

is one that I normally would blow off as another sick and sad attempt to help the rethugs fill up their fall play book, but as a Viet Nam veteran, I'd like to tell you a little something that seems to have eluded your careful research of that time period.

When I was DRAFTED into the Army in 1964, the doors to the recruiting office opened seven days a week. There were recruiters on campus and anywhere else young men and women gathered. ANYBODY who had a desire to join the military could have easily have done so. The problem was, very few people wanted to sign up.

As the war heated up in 65-66, it became mandatory to triple the size of the draft because people were not joining up....you see, most people did not want to chance having their brains blow out in a jungle 10,000 miles from home for some sketchy reason being force fed to the populace. Most people did not relish the idea of killing other people just because they MIGHT become communist. ( starting to sound familiar?)

On the other hand, there were lots of "good ol boys" that enjoyed the shit out of it, their gung ho bravado got a lot of people killed on both sides.Those that managed to lived were rewarded with high positions and stars on their shoulders. Some of them now tell us they are men of peace and want the chance to run the world......

This Viet vet really used to admire the guys like Bush, Clinton, Ali, Lott, Delay, Chaney , Dean, Limbaugh, etc. who were clever enough not to find themselves on "the killin floor". What I don't like is smart asses like you and some others that feel like the killing of 2 million Vietnamese people and the loss of nearly 60,000 Americans is some how a honorable and noble resume item.
And please don't tell me bullshit about how the voters view this....everyone that wanted to, could have enlisted.Period. Then there would have been the need for a draft at all.


on edit
here is the entire interveiw with Vidal
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17442

[Myra]

45. And I never said that the killing of 2 million Vietnamese people is noble

So don't attribute any such words to me.

If Dean was a conscientious objector, he'd have shown
some character and leadership ability.
Even now I haven't heard him claim that he was unwilling
to go to Vietnam for moral reasons.

"I took a physical, I failed a physical.
If that makes this an issue, then so be it."

Dean's supporters are showing more leadership on the morality
of the Vietnam war than he is. Good for them.

[jonnyblitz]

46. so I take it you are not a big fan of Clinton either. n/t

[Myra]

50. I like Clinton overall, but think he handled the draft question badly

Which made him more vulnerable than he had to be.
And I feel he was on the wrong side of some issues like
Welfare reform and NAFTA, and was unfortunately forced to
compromise on gays in the military, and was sadly
defeated by the Pugs on universal health care.

But I think that he was a good president under the circumstances,
given that Scaife was funding endless attacks on him and Hillary,
the "The Hunting of the President" was a 24/7 gold rush
for the right wing, and he was fighting impeachment constantly.
If not for the constant coup attempts during his presidency,
I think he could have come out as more progressive.

Overall, would I prefer Clinton to Bush?
Hell yes.
Would I prefer Clinton to Dean?
Yes.
Would I prefer Clinton to Clark or Kucinich?
No.
Would I like Clinton's endorsement, formal or informal,
for Clark or Kucinich?
Yup.

[TLM]

47. Funny how many clark supporters are in agreement with right wing rags

"I must say, I rarely find myself in agreement with that venerable
right wing rag, the Washington Post."

But any Dean bash is a good Dean bash... right?

What do you expect when your candidate thinks Reagan is a truly great leader?

[snyttri]

65. If Dean supporters think the Washington Post is a "right-wing rag" they

have no idea what country they are campaigning in.

Did the Post become a right-wing rag when Dean made his recent famous Watergate-esque statement, "Are you going to believe me or are you going to believe the Wadshington Post?"

If the Dean campaign is trying to please those who think the Post is a right-wing rag and alienate those who don't, then the goal is to max out at 10 per cent of the vote in the general election.

[RUexperienced]

54. Right wing rag?

I don't know all that much about politics, but when was the last time the Washington Post or New York Times endorsed a Republican for president?

Maybe they do it all the time, but big cities usually go Democratic.

[worldgonekrazy]

55. At first I thought you were saying Vidal called Dean a "Marion"

I was almost disturbed because I like Vidal (although, of course, some of his stuff is a just a tad over the top), and would be dissapointed in him if he had made such a statement.

Then I realized you are just trying to lie and distort.

[hedda_foil]

57. Not Marion ... Not Stewart ...

Dean is Henry Fonda in Twelve Angry Men.

Case closed.

[corporatewhore]

62. What i didnt like about bush was he led us into war

praised its glory and never knew the reality of war
what i dont like dean is that he will continue the military occupation of iraq continuing the attacks without knowing what he is doing to the iraqis or the us soliders