ButterflyBlood
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:07 AM
Original message |
If Hillary can't beat Obama how can she beat McCain? |
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Remember back when she as Mrs. Inevitable? How her bashers were told to shut up because she'd be the nominee, the end? Her overwhelming cash and establishment advantage?
Well she blew all that. To a political novice. Her campaign since Feb. 5 has the most inept and dreadful I've ever seen. Her entire strategy now appears to be to argue that any state Obama wins doesn't count for some reason and just to wait for states she's favored in (which do count.) Doesn't work in the GE. If Hillary could lose with her MASSIVE advantages, how can she be the stronger candidate? She's proven she can't run a campaign.
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Independent-Voter
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:08 AM
Response to Original message |
rug
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:11 AM
Response to Original message |
2. Because you can't effectively attack your own clone. McCain is not. |
MethuenProgressive
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:13 AM
Response to Original message |
3. McCain would never Swiftboat Clinton on Race, so she'd beat him easily. |
Occam Bandage
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #3 |
11. lol. If there's anything the last few elections have proved, it's that the |
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Republicans would never stoop lower than the Clinton campaign did this campaign season. They're pure as angels.
Er, wait, Obama. I keep forgetting that you try to pin Clinton's Great SC Backfire on Obama. Same point regardless.
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JeanGrey
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #3 |
15. No. I'm sorry, but she would not. Poll after poll shows it. |
jackson_dem
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #15 |
23. Polls also showed President Dukakis, President Bush 43 (by 11 points), and President Kerry |
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What happened when the "new" candidate faced the fire of the other party?
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JeanGrey
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #23 |
27. Look I remember those things as well. Those polls weren't |
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showing that for long! Do you really think that right into election time the polls showed Dukakis winning? Please!
Hillary's negatives have been around forever.
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JeanGrey
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #23 |
29. I also don't remember any polls showing Kerry winning by any |
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huge margin close to election day. We all knew it was going to be close and most polls were within margins of error, unless you're talking about "exit" polls which I never rely on.
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jackson_dem
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #29 |
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He led by 8 at this point in 2004 and lost by 3. Bush 00 also suffered an 11 point loss from now to November. This is what happens when the "new" candidate's honeymoon ends and he is attacked by the other party. Obamites seem to think Obama is immune to this...
Dukakis led by 17 in August, lost by 7...
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JeanGrey
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #32 |
37. Lost by 7? What did Dukakis only "lose" by 7? He was |
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crushed.
Dukakis NEVER HAD A CHANCE.
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Voice for Peace
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #32 |
45. I think Obama may be immune to this, based on how he's responding to Clinton's & others' criticisms |
karynnj
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #23 |
33. 2004 was never seen as a big Democratic win |
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In Dec 2003, Bush was at 60% approval and was beating generic Democratic by double digits and Dean by 20 points. There was a time in spring 2004, as Kerry won the primaries that he polled ahead of Bush. The images of Kerry with Rassman and the firefighters in each victory speech were attractive - and why the SBVT were created.
In a way, Kerry is a victim of having been pretty successful - he was good enough that he made it very close and convinced people he could win - thus the hurt and anger when he lost an unfair race. Remember that the Clintons in 2003 did not think Bush was beatable.
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JeanGrey
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Thu Feb-21-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #33 |
60. Exactly. I voted for Kerry but I was never deluded that he was |
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Edited on Thu Feb-21-08 01:14 PM by JeanGrey
actually going to WIN. As much as I hated it I knew Bush was going to win. I don't know how to say it except that Kerry wasn't "presidential". He didn't come off that way. He didn't have "it". The "it" that is carrying Obama and carried John Kennedy. Bush didn't either but we were at war and he was still fairly popular. It would've taken a very charismatic candidate (as the big dog was) to pull that off.
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Independent-Voter
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #23 |
38. Kerry and Dukakis had the personality and charism of a lump of mud. Horrible candidates |
JeanGrey
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Thu Feb-21-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #38 |
61. THANK YOU!!!! Exactly. You put it blunter than I did but same |
Colobo
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #3 |
16. Obama never swifboated Hillary on anything. Bill Clinton and some |
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stupid surrogates like Bob Johnson ran their mouths and black America rejected them.
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jackson_dem
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #16 |
26. Yeah, she went from leading among blacks to 12-15% by sheer coincidence |
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Obama used the ugliest tactics to win, assuming he holds on and takes the nomination.
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LoZoccolo
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #26 |
28. Oh that's beautiful spin, beautiful. |
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It didn't have anything to do with what her supporters said.
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stahbrett
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #26 |
42. Not "sheer coincidence" - it was the "shucking and jiving" and "jesse jackson" crap |
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And that did not come from the Obama campaign.
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JeanGrey
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Thu Feb-21-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #26 |
62. Oh COME ON now. Be honest with yourself. South Carolina |
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really, REALLY made them mad. Plus they have a candidate of their OWN. Are you surprised?
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LoZoccolo
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #3 |
21. If the Republicans start swiftboating on race they are fucked. |
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Edited on Thu Feb-21-08 09:38 AM by LoZoccolo
They won't do it. If they expose themselves as too hideous they open themselves up for massive vengeance.
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Independent-Voter
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #21 |
41. This is the year of the pissed-off middle and independents. Playn' the race card ain't going to work |
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Bill Clinton found out that in SC.
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JeanGrey
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Thu Feb-21-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #21 |
63. The republicans are fucked anyway. Obama is going to |
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make McCain look like Dukakis.
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Lerkfish
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #3 |
51. just keep playing that race card, its working out so well for your candidate, isn't it? |
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and if the race card does not work against Obama from Clinton, it will REALLY not work coming out of Mccain's campaign.
look, its time to wake up and start smelling logic again. come back into the light. You guys tried to throw everthing, including the kitchen sink, and it didn't work. wake up.
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mrreowwr_kittty
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Thu Feb-21-08 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
68. Yeah, the Republicans have never effectively "Swiftboated" a lily-white candidate |
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Except...oh wait...they did! :eyes:
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maddiejoan
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message |
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I'm sure McCain's inspiring oratory and his vast appeal to disaffected youth hoping for a bright tomorrow will absolutely bury Hillary.
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JeanGrey
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #4 |
19. I don't think you realize that the young are coming out to vote |
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because there is a candidate that makes them care enough to do so. Had it been McCain/Hillary not many would've. It would have been old school and McCain would defeat her. And I'm not ready for another eight years of republicans, thanks! We may never recover from the last eight.
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maddiejoan
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #19 |
34. I don't think you realize |
JeanGrey
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #34 |
39. Yeah I can see from the delegate count how wrong I am. |
maddiejoan
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #39 |
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so what you are saying is all those young people who want change --would just sit home if Hill is the nominee?
okay.
right --or maybe they'll vote for McCain?
:rolleyes:
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cali
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #48 |
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and many of his friends have been volunteering for Obama. He'd vote for Hillary if she were the nominee- but only because I'd reach up (he's 6'4) and grab his ear and drag him off to the polls. And I can't say the same for many of his friends. Whatever the reason, most seem to distrust her.
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JeanGrey
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Thu Feb-21-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #50 |
JeanGrey
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Thu Feb-21-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #48 |
59. They wouldn't vote at all. Young people are nortorious for |
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not voting. I cannot tell you how many young people I've met that are voting and getting involved in politics for the fist time and for two reasons: Barack Obama. This is a GOOD thing. We're winning. Our party is winning and we're going to win the GE with a candidate that is pulling in EVERYONE.
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Independent-Voter
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #34 |
43. Voters under 30 are overwhelming voting for Obama you dumbass |
maddiejoan
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #43 |
Independent-Voter
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #46 |
53. So you honestly think the youth vote is going to swing for HRC in the GE? |
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God damn, pass whatever shit you're smoking - it's got to be some good stuff.
If anything, voters under 30 will stay at home if it comes down to HRC / McCain.
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maddiejoan
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #53 |
Cosmocat
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message |
5. It would be a LOT tougher ... |
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Obama has the chance to win it going away ...
Hill, it would be VERY tight, and a blood battle ...
I live in Pa ... Obama has had a VERY dedicated guy organizing and campaigning for him in the central part of the state since LAST MAY ... I mean, all the fairs last summer with candidates setting up booths for LAST NOVEMBER's election, this guy had booths up for Obama ... Organizing like a fiend the whole time ... It was just in the paper today that a really great older party lady just fell into organizing for Hill this week after she made a phone call to ask about it ...
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billyoc
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:15 AM
Response to Original message |
6. Isn't it moot? If she can't win the primary, she won't face McCain. |
Benhurst
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:15 AM
Response to Original message |
7. Democratic primary vs. general election = very different constituencies |
ButterflyBlood
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #7 |
10. But campaiging skill isn't |
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And Hillary's shown to have virtually none this campaign. If she did she would've buried Obama long ago.
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Onlooker
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:16 AM
Response to Original message |
8. Yes, that's the bottom line ... |
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... Obama has run a clever, but sleazy campaign, and that's what it takes to win. Obama may be a man without principle and stand for nothing, but he knows how to win. Let's get a Democrat in the WH, and then push Congress to make him liberal.
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JeanGrey
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #8 |
22. Come on, please. Sleazy? I'm sorry but Sleazy describes |
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the attacks Hillary has done and there will be more.
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calmblueocean
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:18 AM
Response to Original message |
9. She has to beat Obama to beat McCain. If she can do the first, she can do the second. |
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I think either one can win against McCain. Bush is at 19%! But Hillary really is the underdog right now.
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JeanGrey
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #9 |
25. What has Bush got to do with it? Nothing. |
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If the approval of the incumbent President meant anything to the follow up Gore would've won in a landslide.
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SIMPLYB1980
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:23 AM
Response to Original message |
12. Thats a nice pic. Have you seen this? |
Occam Bandage
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:23 AM
Response to Original message |
13. Yes. She blew a 30-point lead, 80% favorables among Dems, and $140 million. She is |
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absolutely terrible at campaigning, and the pre-Iowa repeated declarations (which I believed) that she was some sort of brilliant campaign mastermind running the tightest ship in history were so off-base as to perhaps constitute fraud.
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JeanGrey
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:28 AM
Response to Original message |
14. Look, I have to differ here. Saying that she ran a terrible |
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campaign is like saying that OJ got off because the prosecutors were bad. She didn't run a bad campaign, the fact is that she didn't have enough supporters to win from the very beginning. I don't know why people don't seem to get that Hillary has so much negative factor against her, more than any other candidate. She was only "inevitable" to herself and those that supported her - they discounted the many who would almost do anything to keep her (and by association, Bill) out of the white house again.
I truly and firmly believe that had she gotten the nomination, McCain would beat her. There is too large a contingent of people who are fed up with Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton. She also has so much corporate support and that turns off a lot of people, not to mention that many dems view her as too centrist.
I just wouldn't blame her "campaign" managers. They have done a good job with the huge amount of money they had. But people discounted Hillary's negatives and didn't realize that she would lose all of her black support to a true black candidate.
And, every single one of the people I know who dislike Hillary (and I know this is another anecdote) say they dislike her for the same reason. That she put up with Bill for her own ambitions and it really turned them off. They view her as someone who will do anything to get and keep power, even putting up with someone like her husband and all that humiliation for years in the public eye, and that she believes that what is best for her is what is best for everyone.
As far as her campaign goes, Bill hasn't helped her at all, he's hurt her, and every time he surfaces that brings back that negative factor I mentioned above about their marriage even if it is fair or not.
Hillary and Bill are the past. Obama is young, charismatic, and new. He is bringing the younger generation out and also taking Hillary's base from her.
This is what I thought would happen from the beginning.
Please don't flame me, I like Hillary, and supported her in the beginning. But I have always felt she could not win. And I still do.
I just hope that when the time comes she goes with class.
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Independent-Voter
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #14 |
44. You speak the truth Grasshopper! |
JeanGrey
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Thu Feb-21-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #44 |
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And I don't mean what I say in a negative way. Obama isn't my first choice either. But I want to win the WH!
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ElsewheresDaughter
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:31 AM
Response to Original message |
17. funny thing...they had Obama losing to McCain in GE by 13% pts on CNN this morning |
ButterflyBlood
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #17 |
Stuckinthebush
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #20 |
24. Yeah, I'm doubting that too |
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Obama has consistently beaten McCain in polling.
Hillary hasn't.
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K Gardner
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:32 AM
Response to Original message |
18. DING DING DING.. we have a winner ! |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #18 |
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Try actually 'thinking' sometime. It may open up all sorts of doors for you...
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K Gardner
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #31 |
47. Unprovoked personal attacks on posters all you got left? How sad. |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #47 |
54. It Was A Legitimate Reply. |
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I see you haven't gotten there yet. In time I guess...
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Lerkfish
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #31 |
52. wow. what an ironic post |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #52 |
55. Nothing Ironic About It At All. |
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I'm one of the few left in GDP that actually CAN think. Lord knows, it's becoming a rarity.
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Lerkfish
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #55 |
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since you can think, look up the definition, look at your post, and try to decipher my meaning.
good luck!
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mudesi
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Thu Feb-21-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #31 |
GarbagemanLB
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:38 AM
Response to Original message |
30. She has also proven how inept at managing she is. That plus her negativity rating would helpher lose |
noiretextatique
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:56 AM
Response to Original message |
35. if is the operative word |
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the race is not over yet.
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EndElectoral
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Thu Feb-21-08 09:57 AM
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36. She can't as the polls show. And with the diviseness of the primary she has no hope. |
sellitman
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:01 AM
Response to Original message |
40. Maybe she hasn't run a bad campaign? |
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Maybe he just ran a better one?
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ButterflyBlood
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Thu Feb-21-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #40 |
67. How has her post-Feb 5 campaign been anyhing but a disaster? |
Lerkfish
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Thu Feb-21-08 10:21 AM
Response to Original message |
49. "told to shut up because she'd be the nominee, the end" |
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yup, I remember that time. I was castigated for not shutting up as I recall.
karma exists.
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Captain Hilts
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Thu Feb-21-08 12:17 PM
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58. By standing on the same stage with him. That's all it would take for her to beat him. nt |
book_worm
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Thu Feb-21-08 01:29 PM
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mudesi
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Thu Feb-21-08 05:19 PM
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