Letter from a Besieged but Defiant Clinton Supporter!

[Muzza]

I did not author this letter. I received it from a Clinton supporter on Facebook. I think, however, the author captures well some of the experiences had by the average Clinton supporter in the last few weeks. All identifying names have been removed. Read and consider! I am ready for the onslaught!

----------------------------

FULL TEXT OF ORIGINAL LETTER:

Feb 16, 2008

To Fellow Facebook Users,

We are all friends here. We are not here to pressure anyone into fighting against anything. We are not here to judge, to point our fingers, or to threaten with social ostracism just because someone does not happen to support a particular popular candidate.

I dared to hope that the same was true of Obama supporters. I wished and dared to hope that the differences between Obama supporters and Hillary supporters were limited to the style of leadership, public policies, and details of a particular plan. In the last couple of days, we have encountered Obama supporters that proved us wrong. They told us that we were hill-billies, feminazis, scum of the earth, minimum wage workers, and losers.

Over the course of the last couple of days, I had personal contact with an Obama supporter, JR, who has 2 babies because he got some girl pregnant in high school. And he watches football, which is about all he does, as he told me. And in his spare time between watching football and drinking a beer, he would remember to feed them. He also told me that he would rather make a great speech than talk to individual people.

JR is a typical Obama supporter. He accused us of being hill-billies because we do not shop in the same stores as Hollywood actresses and talk show hosts. He accused us of being feminazis because we dared to support a woman to be the president of the United States. He accused us being minimum wage workers because we believe in Universal health care for every man woman and child. He accused us being losers because we do not have a pop song hit from black eyed peas to prove our point. Perhaps we are not cool enough. He accused us being the scum of the earth because we want to make a difference in the lives of real people with real lives to live, who face real struggles.

There you have it. I now know the entire life story of an Obama supporter, told from his own words. I am relieved that JR does not know anything about me even though I am writing his entire life story. Nor does he want to know anything about me. In light of this, his statements are generalities about all Hillary Clinton supporters. No wonder Maria Shriver, Oprah Winfrey and Uncle Teddy and bro, John Kerry have to take turns babysitting a whiny crying useless piece of scum. Lots of people are counting on him to save America. And these same people count on generalities. They know something is cool when they see something glittery from H-wood. They know something is cool when they hear a pop song from black-eyed peas, a frequenter on the top 100 pop charts. Regardless, generalities are business as usual. And generally, elections are a political game. The act of betrayal comes easy when it can help them achieve their own personal goals. 2 for the price of 1. That is, if they gain great influence and power for the price Hillary Clinton, the contract is already signed, sealed and delivered.

We witnessed their action of endorsing Obama. They are not endorsing Obama because they believe he is the best person to be president of the United States. Rather, the goal is to stop Hillary Clinton, at all cost. Despite Obama’s support group of brainless actors, actresses, and talk show hosts, there are still plenty of people who believe or wish Obama to be the new hero of America. These mobs of people wish and hope for Obama to save America. If that idea holds through the Democratic Primaries and Obama becomes the democratic nominee, it will be the Republicans who will save America. Republicans will be hailed as the Saviour of America for restoring order to an irrational, bacchi-like group of druggies, pleasure-seekers and zealots who know nothing of what it takes to be a head of state. Obama has not seen the likes of a Republican attack launched against him in order to put a decisive stop to the disorderly madness of black power and star-crazed popularity alike. It will be back to a War with Iraq, Afghanistan, and Iran with no end in sight.

In light of recent events, we, Hillary Supporters need to confront our inner fear. Our confrontation of fear will fuel us to make more phone calls, to reach out to independents and undecideds who are still weighing the candidates in Ohio and Texas. Our confrontation of fear will fuel us to make contributions for the one and only logical choice in the Presidency of the United States, Hillary Clinton. Let us remember what drew us to Hillary Clinton. Let us remember that when we asked Hillary Clinton, she gave us solutions and answers. When she asked us, we answered by giving 15 million dollars in a matter of days. When she asked, we made over 1 million phone calls in less than 2 days. Let us be the light in darkness, the reason in irrationality, and the courage in fear.

I hope you win Hillary Clinton. The reason is America, Madame President.

Sincerely,

E.

[anonymous171]

1. Lost me at "typical Obama supporter"

I'm sorry, but I refuse to be stereotyped. Good luck to your friend, I hope they are doing alright!

[Muzza]

20. Ok

But as they say "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater"!

[Kittycat]

2. Flame bait - and Post 3 for you today.

I'm glad this nonsensical post will be the end of it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Surely there have been more than 3

Seems like 100. :)

[Kittycat]

9. Well - 28 if we're being exact, LOL... But only 3 new ones.

;)

[Muzza]

21. How so? Not likely. I can do 3 a day.

[rodeodance]

33. many like to 'remind" you place thoughout the day.

[scheming daemons]

3. Hi Proud2BAmurkin!!!!

Nice to see you got a new account.

[JohnnyLib2]

8. LOL

Fond memories.....

[Muzza]

22. Second time this accusation has been filed - I am not that person.

[Alexander]

69. Well you act just like him.

So it probably leaves some people wondering.

If you don't want to be compared with such individuals, it's best not to post flamebait multiple times.

[Muzza]

81. How did he act? What did he do that was so outrageous?

[lligrd]

4. And You're Done For The Night

Have a good one.

[Muzza]

23. Still going a few hours later! But getting tired now.

[Yael]

6. This is about the most disjointed screed I have ever read

Thanks for calling attention to it. :hi:

[CoffeeCat]

12. I thought it was like...

...so totally cool. Cuz I'm like, not into Hollywood bullshit either. I'm like soooo
anti-establishment. I like, hate all actors. So, I support Hillary.

Are you like, going to the exchange and the Phi Delt house tomorrow?

I hear they're mixing powdered lemonade and everclear. No water.

So. Psyched.

Text me. Hillary 4-evah!!!!!!!1

[Yael]

16. LOL!

I couldn't even fake that if I had to.

Props! :toast:

[NDambi]

77. perfect

:rofl:

[Muzza]

24. I thought it was well structured and written actually.

[cali]

38. lol. My goodness but your standards are in the gutter, aren't they?

Don't you realize that something can be "well structured and written", and be nothing but fish wrap? Not that it was all that well structured or written. It's a hate screed. Sad that you can't discern that. The tip off would be the author calling Obama a "useless scum". See? That was easy. Now you know.

[AX10]

7. He is right one part for sure.

Actors and actresses need writers to do anything.

[Muzza]

25. Well I didn't author that letter so I can't accept your credit!

[CoffeeCat]

10. Can you like, hear the Valley Girl uptalk...

...seeping through each line?

Like, OMG, this is like so amazing?

She knows this guy, who like, has two babies and like OMG, he watches like so much football?

Like...OMG?

She's like totally disgusted, with this guy that she knows? And he's like SO into Obama?

She like totally needs to text her BBFF and LOL for a while.

[madfloridian]

11. This reads like the Carville "trailer trash" comment about Paula Jones.

Talk about ugly?
http://george.loper.org/rogue/democrats/james/carville.html

[madfloridian]

15. Here it is.

Should James Carville apologize for "humiliating millions of decent Americans by demeaning Paula Jones as 'trailer park trash'?" (Annie Groer and Ann Gerhart, The Reliable Source, The Washington Post, June 2, 1997). The Arundel Mobile Homeowners' Association thinks so.

"'We have become the innocent victims of a personal problem between President Clinton and Paula Jones. All hard-working, responsible mobile-home owners have been needlessly insulted by the careless handling of this incident,' the association wrote to (Maryland Delegate John) Leopold (R-Anne Arundel)" (Annie Groer and Ann Gerhart, The Reliable Source, The Washington Post, June 2, 1997).

What does Carville say? "'The people I was talking about were the whole gallery of folks who come up with these stories about the president. You give them enough money and they'll say anything,' Carville told The Source. 'Hey, my sister married someone who lived in a mobile home, so it can't be all that bad'" (Annie Groer and Ann Gerhart, The Reliable Source, The Washington Post, June 2, 1997).

That is what it sounds like. Using tactics of ridicule. The GOP uses them...oh, wait.

[AGirl]

13. K and R - I agree 100 percent.

[cali]

39. Of course you do. We already know that you think Obama is scum.

Hardly a surprise coming from YOU.

[madfloridian]

14. Deleted subthread

:rofl:

[Armstead]

17. A truly surreal post

[Muzza]

26. How so? Please explain.

[Tresalisa]

18. Hmmmmmm...

This letter-writer says: "In light of this, his statements are generalities about all Hillary Clinton supporters."

After that comes generalities about Obama supporters, because of one JR.

I have no horse in this race, I will vote for whomever wins the nomination, but this strikes me as odd. Anybody? Anybody? Bueller?

:shrug:

[Muzza]

28. Clarification

Sure this person used a case example, JR, but her conclusions were drawn from a much larger sample - primarily a sample of facebook users and if you have posted on the walls of Clinton or Obama you will know they are very busy places. Each has more than 75,000 comments. So, although it may not have seemed this way to you, the author came to her conclusions over a period of time and after a much broader range of contacts than is reflected in her letter.

[Muzza]

19. Cmon...

Surely you can do better than this? Not one single constructive response. If you disagree with some or all aspects of this letter why not state your reasons? Do you not see the point here? The inability or unwillingness to critically respond to these kinds of matters is of concern. It leads me to think you apply the same lack of critical thought when thinking about who to select as the next US president. And that's concerning. If there are people out there who have these views about Obama fans, and you think they are unfairly judging you, do you not feel a need to defend yourself?

[Adams Wulff]

37. No.

[rodeodance]

27. Love the "Madame President."

[Muzza]

29. Yeah, I like it too.

[rodeodance]

35. ;-)

[Political Heretic]

30. Muzza: "Not here to talk shit. Here to discuss the real issues critically." -- Lie

As this thread shows.

[Muzza]

48. Defend this statement. Read every post I have made & then defend your statement.

[rodeodance]

31. Have to admit many times I feel like a Besieged but Defiant Clinton Supporter!

yes we can, yes we will

~YES WE CAN~ YES WE WILL~~~

[rodeodance]

~YES WE CAN~ YES WE WILL~~~

[NDambi]

79. Stop Thief!!!

:rofl:

[Muzza]

51. I am both besieged and defiant!

[casus belli]

32. I suppose the irony is lost on you...

"We are not here to judge, to point our fingers, or to threaten with social ostracism just because someone does not happen to support a particular popular candidate."

----------------------------------

"JR is a typical Obama supporter."

"his statements are generalities about all Hillary Clinton supporters"

"No wonder Maria Shriver, Oprah Winfrey and Uncle Teddy and bro, John Kerry have to take turns babysitting a whiny crying useless piece of scum"

"Obama has not seen the likes of a Republican attack launched against him in order to put a decisive stop to the disorderly madness of black power"

"Despite Obama’s support group of brainless actors, actresses, and talk show hosts, there are still plenty of people....."




I could go on, but what's the point. You won't see the irony in it, and you've clearly cemented your opinions in stone.

Good luck to you and your friend...

[Muzza]

50. No, the irony is not lost on me...

My other posts explain the purpose for submitting this letter. Consider this: if Obama wins the nomination, he will need the support of Clinton voters in the November election. Right now, millions of those voters are not happy and are very uspet at the prospect of Obama winning. The very first step to drawing those voters back into the process is by understanding why they are so pissed off! If Obama wins, and Obama supporters fail to understand the unhappiness/disontentment of the Clinton supporters, kiss the election good by because these people will not be voting for Obama!

[casus belli]

55. It's a two way street.

There is a lot of vitriol coming from both sides. This is, admittedly, the only primary I've ever seen that has been this hostile. However, there is alot at stake. Once we're down to one candidate, some people will be ecstatic, others will need time to lick their wounds and decide if they want to play a role. Ultimately, I'm sure that (if they aren't just DINOs) once this comes down to an R vs D contest, it'll become clear to some of those threatening to sit it out, what exactly is at stake if they don't participate. If they still can't be convinced to play a role, then we end up with another 4 years of a GOP administration that those who sat out will have to take some responsibility for.

[Muzza]

80. Indeed. A bit of time will help to heal the wounds.

[NDambi]

84. Guess What?

[NDambi]

83. Oh please...

What you fail to realize is the DU is a small corner store, as far as Democratic voters go, and America is a Walmart in comparison. I'm willing to bet most Democrats across this country are not going to sit home and through the election because they are upset that Obama and Clinton had a heated primary campaign.

In the end, the aim is to win the white house, and though some can't see it here, that's the end game for most Democrats, regardless of who wins the nomination.

[Johnny__Motown]

34. So, you slander all "typical" Obama supporters in an attempt to show your moral superiority?

Flawed tactic, much like your candidate's

[Muzza]

41. I didn't write the letter...

[cali]

43. LOL! Now that's some lame squirming

You posted and praised it. You clearly endorse its contents. And you obviously think Obama is scum. Your posts make clear what you are.

[Muzza]

46. No. You are wrong.

[Muzza]

47. No, I am just passing on information....

And if people don't take notice of this, and if Obama wins, the kinds of HRC supporters with these views and feelings will not be supporting your candidate. Do you not want to understand their experience and possible secure their vote? Dismiss this at your candidate's own peril! Millions of people voted for HRC remember - do you not want those votes if Obama gets the nomination? If so, you better wise up to how the average Clinton supporter is feeling.

[cali]

36. Let's deconstruct. Let's start with the author's lens, about which

one can fairly say, is besmirched with high test partisanship. What the author sees is that Obama supporters are the only ones attacking. That's clearly untrue as can be seen here in GD-P and in the real world. Witness the speeches given attacking Obama supporters both by Clinton and surrogates- not to mention by her rank and file supporters.

Moving on to "JR"- be he fictional or real, it's quite clear that he is not a typical Obama supporter. In fact, Obama supporters are more likely than Hillary supporters to be college educated. That's a fact, not speculation. Surprising that you are ignorant of it.

The author insists that John Kerry, Maria Shriver and others have to babysit for Obama, and calls him a "useless piece of scum". Here is a person so consumed by hatred that she/he is pulling shit out of his/her ass and mistaking that shit for fact. It's nigh on delusional. John Kerry advocates for Obama, just as high profile Clinton supporters advocate for Hillary. Perhaps the author is so ignorant as to think there is something new and surprising about this. There is not.

It's not worth going on much about this hate fueled rant, except to note that it's clearly born out of hate of Obama supporters and fear that the author's chosen candidate will lose to Obama. It's filled with the rankest and most ignorant generalities. It's simply mindless and hateful bashing, as the language the author employs makes clear.

It says something about YOU that you think that a letter in which Obama is called "USELESS SCUM", is worth posting here. And what it says, dear, is NOT flattering.

[casus belli]

40. (Snap)

Very lucid post. :thumbsup:

[cali]

42. Don't expect to see the OP actually address it though

It's fairly obvious what kind of poster he/she is.

[Muzza]

45. And what kind of poster is that?

You know nothing about me or my intentions/motives for being here.

[cali]

49. Can't actually address what I wrote in my little deconstruction

upthread, eh? Quelle surprise. But I'd be glad to tell you what kind of poster you are: You're a clone of the letter writer. You're a fanner of flames. You're someone mistaking virulance for intelligence. And I'm not terribly interested in your motives (by the way, you really don't need to use both intentions and motives; it's redundant). I'm judging you by what you write and what you post. Now about my deconstruction of the letter you posted....

[Muzza]

52. Well perhaps if you read my other post before making accusations:)

[Muzza]

44. Thanks for your response

No, no, no...

Have you checked out myspace recently?

Have you checked out youtube recently?

Have you checked out facebook recently?

Have you checked out CNN political ticker recently?

Have you checked out ABC News blog articles recently?

The amount of filth, hatred and venom expressed towards Hillary Clinton on the above sites by Obama supporters is absoultely disgusting and offensive. Do you not know this?

The person (female) who wrote this letter, in part, has had an intense reaction to reading and being subjected to the kind of hate communicated through those websites. I can relate in a way. I never had a bad thing to say about Obama. Sure, once I started doing my research I concluded he was not the candidate for me but my anti-Obama sentiments were honestly fueled most significantly by being bombarded with anti-Hillary hate from Obama supporters. So this goes both ways my friend. I guess the question is - who started this war between the 2 camps? What are its origins? Rest assured it most surely exists and is potentially very destructive to the democratic party. Best that people start talking about it now before it's too late and before the Republicans win in November, don't you think.

So I posted this letter not to simply "taunt" people. I posted it, in part, to get people thinking about the kinds of attitudes that are being fostered out there in the respective support camps of each candidate. No group is above criticism in this regard and each side is guilty of spreading smear and propaganda.

[cali]

53. No, no, no and no, is not an adequate response.

And educate yourself. The internet is a corner of the real world and not nearly as big a one as you appear to think. 80% of dem voters are satisfied with BOTH candidates, dear. Do some real reading, not merely Facebook and other stuff. Start with the Pew report. Read some of what Hart has written. You're stuffing yourself on the fast food of the internet, and ignoring reality.

Of course no group is above partisan and hateful behavior, but again, you're mistaking the virtual world for the real world. Most dems will vote for the dem nominee. Period. At this point, the race is not nearly as acrimonious as the internet would lead you to believe. Try expanding your field of knowledge. You need to.

[Muzza]

56. Right...

You are playing the intellectual snobbery card and it's not very attractive...I have three social science degrees, I do know a few things about samples and representativeness my friend...I have put my hand out as a gesture of peace and you spit intellectual snobbery at me. Lovely.

[cali]

59. No. You've posted one garbage thread and post after another

And I'm calmly pointing out that inconvenient post. You're caught up in hate, and that is NOT lovely. And I have two MAs, so I can play that card too. Your posts have been very unattractive and you've endorsed a piece that calls one of our dem candidates "useless scum". You're very confused if you think that's either substantive or extending a hand in a gesture of piece. It's not. You're confusing a refutation of your slime with intellectual snobbery. It's not. Post slime, and get called on it. You can't really think that your weak protestations are a way for you to slither away from being confronted with your unpleasant tactics.

[Muzza]

62. Ok

I agree to disagree. You seem to completely misunderstand some of my key points, or refuse to acknowledge them. And so be it. If you think your air of superiority can defeat me, think again. I hope you are as equally as righteous in your defense of Hillary Clinton when your fellow Obama supporters refer to her in the most VILE of terms in this forum and others. If you agree to defend her against such slander, I will agree to defend Obama against such slander.

[cali]

64. I have defended Clinton for months here.

I did so tonight about the idiotic public defender/rape victim nonsense. And I have NOT seen you defend Obama. In fact, you think he's useless scum, so as I said, it's pretty clear where you're at. I do not expect you to defend Obama considering the stuff you've posted. I've defended Hillary against sexist attacks like the "she's unstable" crap. I did so twice yesterday. I've defended her against the charge that her First Lady experience is not relevant- although I don't think ALL of that time is relevant. You engage in slander. You embrace nonsensical media memes. You display your contempt for all Obama supporters. That's why I won't hold my breath waiting for you to defend Obama.

[Muzza]

66. Well...

I have been in this forum for one day so I don't know you at all or your pattern of responding. But I am quickly learning. You have no idea if I have or have not defended Obama against slander before as this is my first time here! You don't think I have ever discussed these issues anywhere else before? And that my performance today is the one and only test of my core beliefs and daily behaviors? You know nothing about my experience or the basis of my views and you are arrogantly projecting your views/behaviors onto me as though they are rooted in some kind of superior type of personal ethics!

[cali]

68. I'm talking about here. And please answer this and answer it

honestly: Do you think Obama is "useless scum"? And if not, why did you approvingly post a letter in which he was called that?

[Muzza]

73. Well no, I do not think he is "useless scum" and like I said in the other post

those words had not even stood out to me - as you know, depending on the perspective of the reader, certain words do and don't stand out. Obviously given my current perspective, which is a polarized one (very pro-hillary, very anti-obama), the words "useless scum" didn't even strike the "inappropriate" alarm and I didn't even notice them. Obviously I do now as you have point them out to me in a way I had not noticed. In all seriousness, I do have reservations and concerns about Obama and his politics but, yes, the manner in which I communicate these has been colored and infected by being exposed to anti-Hillary hate and smear - on TV, in person, and online. In a way, my response has been to "fight fire with fire" which does not always work, granted.

[cali]

75. Thank you. I know it's easy to get caught up

in all the bullshit that swirls around the candidates. I've done it myself- though I attend to respond more to the poster than transfer that antipathy to Hillary. I'm pro-Obama and never considered voting in the primary for anyone who voted for the IWR, and my concerns about Hillary have only increased in the past few months, but I would have voted for her had she been the nominee, and if by some miracle, she pulls it off, I still will. Will you vote for Obama in the general?

[Muzza]

78. We shall see. Obviously there is a few months between June and November

so that's enough time for rigid positions to be softened. Who knows. For now I retain hope that Hillary will pull victory from the jaws of defeat! I will need, however, to pay more attention to the direction of my anger if indeed she does not win. As you can see, I am not an arrogant know-it-all and I am more than willing to reflect on my views and behavior. It's just disheartening when many people are not willing to do the same.

[cali]

89. interesting. you won't commit to voting for the dem nominee

I think that's a big deal. No matter how angry I get at Clinton and some of her supporters, I do recognize that McCain is NOT acceptable. I hope you can find your way there too.

[Muzza]

94. Polarization...

Like I said before my views are very polarized at present and it's hard to move back to the middle just now...I am sure in time the intensity will subside depending on the outcome...I think the "historical" nature of this process involving a woman and a non-white man has had a significant personal impact on a lot of people who are not ordinarily engaged in politics. I've always had an interest in politics but not to the level I have had this time round. 3 months ago were views were not so polarized. It's amazing what campaigning, media coverage, research, and exposure to other forms of influence can have on one's views! I, not unlike many Obama supporters, am partially a victim of the groupthink effect! Not to say I would ever not support Clinton, but as the stakes have gotten higher and the intensity of the battle has risen, my views have become more polarized and more aligned with my candidate! Gosh, that's how all conflicts start!?!

[cali]

95. You're aware of what's happening to you

break out of it.

[Muzza]

98. These things are processes which cannot necessarily be fast-tracked!

They servce a purpose at given points in time. And then they are shed.

[Muzza]

60. The 20% is not important?

You think either candidate can still win the election if 20% of dem voters wouldn't vote for that candidate?

Seems a risky plan to me.

What to do you think?

Is it important to get that 20% back engaged? Or just let them go?

[cali]

67. 80% is extremely high- almost unprecedented

and Kohut says that that 80% is "excited" about both candidates. There is no indication that the 20% won't vote. All indications point toward the vast majority of dems turning out and voting dem in November. Of course we should try and engage all dem voters and try to mirror primary turnout in the general, and increase it.

[Muzza]

71. Ok, fair enough. If your statement becomes reality than that is a good thing.

[NDambi]

86. "The internet is a corner of the real world and not nearly as big a one as you appear to think."

Exactly!!!!

I likened it to a corner store vs a Walmart in an earlier post!

[Muzza]

54. The education issue...

No, I am aware that apparently people with a college education are more likely to vote for Obama than Clinton. And I am struck by the irony of that fact - I would have thought that people with a college education would have a more well developed critical mind and would, therefore, be less attracted to a candidate like Obama who does not like to answer difficult questions. It seems odd to me that less well-educated people, who you may think have a less critical mind, are not going with the "herd mentality" candidate (Obama) and are instead following a candidate whose politics is more firmly rooted in the everyday realities of American life and society. Can you shed some light on this?

[cali]

61. Yes, it's shocking isn't it, that people like Bill McKibben

and Pat Leahy are supporting Obama. The fact is, that people who are thoughtful and intelligent- whether highly educated or not- are supporting both candidate. Pathetic that you can't bring yourself to acknowledge that. Obama does indeed answer difficult questions. You need to clean the hate and partisanship off your lens. It's distorting reality. Obama is a substantive candidate. So is Clinton. There are people on both sides of the fence who don't choose candidates on the issues- a lot of them. That's ever been true. I live in the back of the beyond in Vermont's Northeast Kingdom; deep woods and hard scrabble farms. And many of the people I know are not college educated. Virtually all of them support Obama. Perhaps you'd like to insult these low income loggers and farmers and shop owners too?

[Muzza]

63. We continue...

You show zero empathy for the experience of Clinton supporters hated upon by Obama supporters...zero...and that's of concern. The tone of your responses is angry, aggresive and accusatory. Why do my comments have such a reaction in you? Right now the hate is going one way - from you to me. And I am sitting here still responding to you.

[cali]

65. Unlike you, I would never endorse anyone calling Hillary Clinton

"useless scum". That's repugnant. I would never post anything that said that about her. It's wrong. You are the one tightly embracing hate, not me. You are the posting hate, and it is disturbing, no matter how you try to dress it up. The OP is as ugly as it gets, even though I do understand that the author is responding to ugly. That's no excuse for your having posted it. Let me give you an example of something I didn't post: There was an excellent piece posted on kos yesterday, but the title was so inflammatory re Clinton, that I didn't post it, even though the body of the piece was relevant and substantive.

[Muzza]

70. Well I am really tired at this point...

I don't think we can agree on much here at this stage. I take your point that I should take more responsibity for the effect that posting such an emotionally intense letter could have on others and also to pay more attention to the precise language used throughout a document - the words "useless scum" had never even stood out to me on my original and subsequent readings of that same letter. It goes to the heart though of what is going on with some supporters - they see their candidate being abused and slandered and at some level feel the need to fight back - can you understand that need to fight back? My critique of Obama is rooted less in an inherent dislike for him and more in the frustration of the unjust way in which Hillary Clinton has been systematically slandered by the media and much of the general public alike.

[alteredstate]

102. Thanks for your "concern"

http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net

There's a lot of hate on your forum.

[Muzza]

104. Geez, nothing like what's on this place...and you know it!

[sniffa]

57. Rock on

I was more than happy to just roll my eyes at this OP, but you took the time to smack it down.

[Muzza]

58. I am still standing. Not down yet. You will have to try harder.

[michaz]

72. My goal is not to stop Hillary Clinton and I wish you would quit trying to tell me it is!

I really resent it! I am voting for Obama because I feel HE is the BEST person to be president. When I first heard him in 2004 speaking at the Democratic Convention, I knew that this was a man that was going to be running this country some day. Well, the some day has come! When I continue to read junk like this I realize that it comes from someone who wants to initiate fear just as the Republicans do! I have had enough fear tactics, thanks from the Republicans! It is disgusting! Are you trying to say that only the Obama supporters are making nasty remarks about Clinton supporters? If so, can you not read or hear? Do you not realize that these same rotten remarks are being made about the Obama supporters by the Clinton supporters? Do you live in a bubble?

[Muzza]

76. Read my posts

1. I did not write the letter nor even initially express any positive or negative opinion about its contents - it was presented for discussion/critique/obliteration, whatever, you get my point.

2. I agree that it's not only Obama supporters who are making nasty remarks about Clinton supporters - the reverse is indeed true. That is part of my point - how to bridge the gap between the 2 camps? Well first you have to understand the perspective of the opposing camp and their experience.

3. I do not live in a bubble. I watch TV, speak with people on a daily basis, read written publications and also online.

[JTFrog]

88. Then why were you ready for the onslaught? You spew flamebait in hopes of a riot and then claim

innocence. You won't get far here.

[michaz]

99. I firmly believe you posted this to start another thread against Obama.

You knew what the reaction would be. I know you did not write it but you did post it!

[Apollo11]

74. So this person thinks that George Clooney is a "brainless actor".

Way to take the moral high ground! :eyes:

[TheDonkey]

82. According to this author Obama is a "whiney crying uselss piece of scum"

I'm glad Hillary supporters are able to rise above such petty name calling. "E" or whoever this author is should be ashamed of his or her self and leave this party. We do not need hate-filled, unhinged, people like him in this party.

[Muzza]

87. Good

So everytime you hear an Obama supporter refer to Hillary Clinton in the most vile of terms, way worse than "useless piece of scum", you can me give your assurance that you will defend her? Yeah? It goes both ways my friend.

[JTFrog]

93. Yes. I doubt you'll be able to stick around with us long enough to find out,

but most of Obama's supporters condemn attacks on Hillary that are personal and have nothing to do with her policies or record. You see, we have plenty of legitimate issues to concern ourselves with. WFRA. IWR. Kyl-Lieberman. NAFTA. Patriot Act. Bankruptcy Bill. Walmart. Mark Penn. Murdoch. Telecoms. Lobbyists. And that is just the short list.

[Muzza]

96. Sure

I have no objection to people critiquing Clinton on her policies/record - go ahead - it's when I see the sexist, personal attacks that I lose it and feel tempted to return the venom at a personal level. Similarly, Obama supporters should have no objection to people critiquing Obama on his policies/record, as we too have much to disagree with: anti-Iraq War position (supported all war funding in 2005/6/7), ties to special interests/lobbyists, non-universal health care, questionable anti-gay politics, ties to an extreme religion, history of not voting on controversial bills/issues, Rezko, paying off superdelegates, claiming to be not part of the washington "establishment" (but is).

[JTFrog]

100. And I would be willing to discuss those as well. But that isn't what you came in here doing is it?

You came in looking for a fight. It says so in your first paragraph. Why is there no mention of any of those items on your list in your OP?




*on edit - I guess you already answered my question above. It is a personal attack. While I don't understand how this type of response puts one above the fray or helps the situation of which you complain, I imagine you would be able to understand that both sides are doing the same things. I bet you all have more in common than you would like to think or admit. I don't condone it from either side and am not above the fray myself, but I hope I never reach this point.

[MadHound]

85. What a bunch unmitigated crap

Geez, talk about stereotyping. Of course is this sort of stereotyping unexpected? After all, it's coming from supporters of a campaign that has played the race card.

I swear, as Hillary continues her death spiral, her supporters become increasingly desperate, willing to stoop to ever further lows.

[Muzza]

90. Please Explain

Provide me with evidence and explanations as to how Clinton's campaign "played the race card".

Provide me with evidence and explanations as to who Obama's campaign did not "play the gender card".

And given that your candidate is in front, why is that some (not all, some) of Obama's supporters continue to feel the need to speak about Hillary Clinton using the most vile language?

[MadHound]

97. LOL!

1. Remember dear ol' Bill in South Carolina? Yeah, that's playing the race card

2. Asking me to prove a negative is a logical fallacy, it can't be done. Logical fallacies are a symptom of confused thinking. Not surprising coming from a Hillary supporter.

3. If you reread my post, you'll find that I'm not using "vile language", whatever that is(what, are we back in the Victorian era?), against Hillary, but against her supporter, the one who originally posted this Facebook page.

[alteredstate]

91. I checked out your homepage.

Wow.

http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/discussion/forumdisplay.php?f=13

[Muzza]

92. That's not the home page.

[GalleryGod]

101. Move to the aft section of the Titanic

IMEO...I'd rather vote for Christiane Amanpour for President, I think she's better qualified.
Fear,and Hate monger: The Basket is empty:puke:

[ellisonz]

103. Holy Shit!

"If that idea holds through the Democratic Primaries and Obama becomes the democratic nominee, it will be the Republicans who will save America. Republicans will be hailed as the Saviour of America for restoring order to an irrational, bacchi-like group of druggies, pleasure-seekers and zealots who know nothing of what it takes to be a head of state."

This motherfucker just mainlined Machiavelli!:puke:

:sarcasm:

mainline
One entry found for mainline.
Main Entry: main·line
Pronunciation: primarystressmamacrn-primarystresslimacrn
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -lined; -lin·ing
transitive verb, slang : to take by or as if by injecting into a principal vein
intransitive verb, slang : to mainline a narcotic drug (as heroin)

[robbedvoter]

105. While not endorsing the stereotype, I recognize the feeling - arrogance breeds

contempt. BO supporters - this is not all deserved, but much of it is earned. And before you dismiss this, you my want to the a look around you - it's a chance to get a glimpse at how other democrats see you. You know, those democrats whose votes are "a lock"