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Is it IWR only.... or is there a much larger pattern?

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sloppyjoe25s Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 12:04 PM
Original message
Is it IWR only.... or is there a much larger pattern?
Edited on Sat Mar-01-08 12:10 PM by sloppyjoe25s
The IWR vote is certainly the most despicable example of political calculation over conviction and moral judgment.

But there is a larger question of the larger patter in Mrs. Clinton's life, and it demonstrates the total lack of the personal integrity, character, and principles most people want in any leader, but esepcially in the presidency.

The real issue with Mrs Clinton is the larger Pattern of being willing to do anything, ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING, to "position" "adjust" "craft" "mold" and "adapt" her own storyline - her own "narrative" - to take her to the place she deemed to be her "absolute right", namely the White House.

Yes the IWR vote is an extreme failing. One she wishes now she could "recalculate" (as she said in her closing in the last debate).

Let me be clear. I think Senator Clinton and her husband are both VERY smart. Very very very smart.

On vote after vote, issue after issue, job after job, association after association, decision after decision she has shown she is nothing short of A POLITICAL CRAY SUPER-COMPUTER.

(IWR, "No Credit Card Company Left Behind", the Levin Ammendment, voting to block Obama's co-sponsorship of fixes to make the patriot act much more protective of civil rights, Cluster Bombs, her refusal to release her tax returns, her dismal failure to
do anything but tow the company line on the board of WalMart, her flip flopping on NAFTA, her chameleon-like campaign "theme", Mark Penn, etc.)

There are no Principles. There are no true Beliefs. There are no Fundamentals. There is no Bedrock. There is no Touchstone. There is no Character. There is no Leadership. There are no Qualifications. There is ONLY Calculation.

Even her claim to care so much about healthcare belies the fact that she consciously conducted perhaps the most
seriously flawed - and personally egotistical - indeed blatantly BLIND methodology in 1993. If she had really deeply
held principles and REAL concern about the issue - she would have consulted, involved, reached out to people who could have helped her. Instead she saw the chance to "make a name" for herself - and her hubris and lust for recognition destroyed the
effort - setting America back a quarter century on the issue.

Hubris => Ate => Nemesis. The fundamental pattern of Greek Tragegy.

EVERY single issue Mrs. Clinton now talks about is expertly poll tested, calculated, analyzed, scrubbed, and sloganized.

She jumps from tag line to tag line with such bewildering speed - that her message has lost all focus - and her unfocussed message becomes a mirror-image reflection of her lack of fundamental convictions, qualifications, leadership, or character.

Don't get me wrong. She is smart. Very smart, but...

...there is simply nothing - repeat nothing - she truly believes in her heart - except that she is entitled to
be president of the United States of America. She believes it is her birth right. Her Absolute fundamental ownership right. "IT WILL BE ME!!" she said coldly to Katie Curic. It was chilling, but very revealing about the one thing she actually DOES believe in: her right to power.

Barack by contrast always has been extremely genuine - and very connected to real people. People instantly see this, and great substance in him. Which is why all attempts to paint him as a "novice" and a "cult fad" have had zero impact.

He is humble - he told his entire campaign from Day 1 - that it was "An Improbably Journey" -- he warned supporters throughout
2007 that his "novelty would wear off". He speaks of himself with a candor and openness that is almost revolutionary in American Politics. In the words of today's youth he is:

"keepin it real" -- GUESS WHAT --- people actually CAN see genuineness. It is just part of human nature.
We can tell a sincere person when we see one. We can also spot a panderer like Mrs. Clinton.

Let me be clear - Barack is brilliant - but he is in NO WAY SMARTER in pure calculating power than Mrs. Clinton. She is extremely smart. She can figure out things very very very quickly - and from all angles (MFLOPS is the computer term). But it is what she DOES once she is done calculating that is so telling...

Even when Obama praises himself - he does so humorously "I've gotta admit, some of my speeches are kinda good!"

But is also self-deprecates - constantly telling his audience that he "cannot do this alone." Telling them they have to get involved. That hope is not enough. That he is an "imperfect vessel" for their hopes. That "we will make mistakes together". That only people working together can make change. It is powerful when a person of such obvious gifts puts himself down, and tells everyone in the audience how extraordinary they are. It is a trait of a genuine leader.

He has fought for civil liberties consistently - he does not back away from unpopular positions. He is a Democrat who can actually speak to people about personal responsibility and they listen. He has a stellar record of accomplishment throughout his career - and is a man of intellect and principle.

But wait?!? Hasn't Obama sometimes too used politics as a guide his decisions? Sure. Of course he has. But only partially. Never to the exclusion of principles and his own moral fiber. When he has, it has been in areas where he has also sought to EDUCATE, to BUILD a new political dimension and greater understanding of an issue. And most importantly it is only a small fraction of the time. Far less than most politicians with his 20 years of public service.

And even when he HAS considered political implications (which any politician MUST), his bedrock of principle and understanding shine through. Some issues like the Peru trade deal are genuinely tough balancing acts - and honest, honorable people can disagree. Barack totally accepts that people may disagree with decisions - but his principles and values still guide him. You will never agree 100% with someone else on everything (as anyone who is married can tell you).

Don't get me wrong - Mrs. Clinton is smart. She and her husband are SMARTER than hell. I mean scary smart. Wow. Barack has a gifted intellect - but the Clintons are just plain SMART, especially Street Smart.

But Mrs. Clinton is totally devoid of genuine principle.

Even SCHIP - her great "fall back" "accomplishment" - for which she claims huge credit - was in fact Ted Kennedy's legislation that she clung on to like a "life-raft" after she personally torpedoed the Universal Health Care ship with her incompetence and arrogance. She did not craft the SCHIP program, she did not even talk about the idea - until she failed on her own. She then did everything she could in short order to jump on the "SCHIP life raft" - so her name would be connected to it in some way. But she was not a legislator at the time - and played a minor role in the passage of the law. This today is part of her "signature experience".

If you listen to her today - you would think she had come up with SCHIP herself, and was deeply personally responsible for it. Well that is political calculation for you - it is what she knows best. Like I said. She's smart.

Literally - a word analysis of the sum total of Mrs. Clinton's speeches would reveal "I" is her favorite word (followed closely by "Me". What "I" will do as president. What "My" plan offers, what "I" have learned. How "I" can do what nobody else can do. What such and such meant to "Me", etc.

She litterally never calls anyone else to service. She never speaks to an audience about "Us" or "We". It is exactly a mirror of her 1993 Health Care Debacle - where she tried to make it an "I" moment - and failed utterly as a result. It is exactly how she would attempt (and fail) to lead as president.

Her incompetence and arrogance has been manifest in this campaign in spades. The "I" candidate surrounded herself with yes-people, and overpaid consultants. At every turn she has proven herself a weaker leader, a poorer executive, a ridiculous characature of a commader in chief, and again, dismally lacking in character or principles.

I would LOVE TO HAVE a woman as president. But Mrs. Hillary Rodham Clinton is a person almost devoid of any moral fiber - and is totally and utterly unqualified to be president of the United States at this point in time, and perhaps ever.

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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. She voted for the Kyl-Lieberman Amendment last September
which essentially calls Iran a terrorist nation and endorses all and any kind of military intervention, so yes, I'd say it's a pattern.
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sloppyjoe25s Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. yes... forgot that... the list is really quite mind boggling...
after all - the list of her actions and inactions as she says:

"Spans 35 years"
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Yes it really is.
I'm not sure there's all that much calculation going on, at least not since she's been in the senate. Basically she just votes the way her financial backers tell her to. She thought she could win this thing without ever having to discuss anything but her Hallmark issues, and it turns out she was wrong.
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sloppyjoe25s Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. you may be right...
but even if it's not calculation, and just pupeteering... the net result is the same.
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. If she were as smart as you give her credit for, she'd be winning now... n/t
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Not if the calculations, done to satisfy short term goals
prove to be long term losing propositions.

And people remember and hold her accountable.

Which is why I can't vote for her in the primaries, and if she wins, will be completely unenthusiastic about the fall election.
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sloppyjoe25s Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. i wish she were not so smart... it would make her more forgivable...
In essence - it's the fact that she IS so smart that make it impossible for me to forgive some
of what she has done and has stood for.

I could honestly over look alot of it if I had to - but the IWR vote, and a few other things just are too
deeply significant.

I could forgive more if I thought she were "just dumb" - it's a more charitable way to view some of these things - and certainly is not a reading that would make her qualified to be president, but it's just too clear - she is not dumb at all.

She has an incredible smartness. It is real values she lacks.
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hisownpetard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. I actually LOVE this post. It says everything I've thought and felt so very well.
I don't know how to find this post, but a while back I concluded that what makes me uncomfortable about Hillary
is what I perceive as a lack of any personal *conviction;* in essence, exactly what this OP has stated.

People have mentioned that, at times, Obama stutters a bit before answering a question.
Well, that's just fine with me. And that's because he's ...thinking! What a concept! Instead of spitting out a sound byte
that's been memorized and rehearsed to death, the man actually considers the question and thinks before answering it.

What a breath of fresh air, to have a politician who is not programmed to within an inch of his life.
Imagine press conferences with real questions and real answers. Imagine transparency in government!

Imagine that. Go, Obama.


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sloppyjoe25s Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Thanks... i felt i had to try to summarize
Some of my thoughts on the matter... glad you felt it did so for you as well...
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
9. No it isn't just the IWR, otherwise Kerry wouldn't have won the 2004 primary.
Edited on Sat Mar-01-08 12:40 PM by ProSense
Kerry, unlike Hillary, spoke out against Bush several times before Bush invaded, including this speech at Georgetown University on Thursday, January 23, 2003:

As our government conducts one war and prepares for another, I come here today to make clear that we can do a better job of making our country safer and stronger. We need a new approach to national security - a bold, progressive internationalism that stands in stark contrast to the too often belligerent and myopic unilateralism of the Bush Administration. I offer this new course at a critical moment for the country that we love, and the world in which we live and lead. Thanks to the work and sacrifice of generations who opposed aggression and defended freedom, for others as well as ourselves, America now stands as the world's foremost power. We should be proud: Not since the age of the Romans have one people achieved such preeminence. But we are not Romans; we do not seek an empire. We are Americans, trustees of a vision and a heritage that commit us to the values of democracy and the universal cause of human rights. So while we can be proud, we must be purposeful and mindful of our principles: And we must be patient - aware that there is no such thing as the end of history. With great power, comes grave responsibility.

<...>

Second, without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. He miscalculated an eight-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's response to that act of naked aggression. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending scuds into Israel and trying to assassinate an American President. He miscalculated his own military strength. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his misconduct. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm.

So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War. Regrettably the current Administration failed to take the opportunity to bring this issue to the United Nations two years ago or immediately after September 11th, when we had such unity of spirit with our allies. When it finally did speak, it was with hasty war talk instead of a coherent call for Iraqi disarmament. And that made it possible for other Arab regimes to shift their focus to the perils of war for themselves rather than keeping the focus on the perils posed by Saddam's deadly arsenal. Indeed, for a time, the Administration's unilateralism, in effect, elevated Saddam in the eyes of his neighbors to a level he never would have achieved on his own, undermining America's standing with most of the coalition partners which had joined us in repelling the invasion of Kuwait a decade ago.

In U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the United Nations has now affirmed that Saddam Hussein must disarm or face the most serious consequences. Let me make it clear that the burden is resoundingly on Saddam Hussein to live up to the ceasefire agreement he signed and make clear to the world how he disposed of weapons he previously admitted to possessing. But the burden is also clearly on the Bush Administration to do the hard work of building a broad coalition at the U.N. and the necessary work of educating America about the rationale for war. As I have said frequently and repeat here today, the United States should never go to war because it wants to, the United States should go to war because we have to. And we don't have to until we have exhausted the remedies available, built legitimacy and earned the consent of the American people, absent, of course, an imminent threat requiring urgent action.

The Administration must pass this test. I believe they must take the time to do the hard work of diplomacy. They must do a better job of making their case to the American people and to the world.

I have no doubt of the outcome of war itself should it be necessary. We will win. But what matters is not just what we win but what we lose. We need to make certain that we have not unnecessarily twisted so many arms, created so many reluctant partners, abused the trust of Congress, or strained so many relations, that the longer term and more immediate vital war on terror is made more difficult. And we should be particularly concerned that we do not go alone or essentially alone if we can avoid it, because the complications and costs of post-war Iraq would be far better managed and shared with United Nation's participation. And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war.


Kerry has never wavered in calling out Bush on his immoral war, and he led the effort to set a deadline for withdrawal.

Hillary Clinton's problem has been not only her silence, but also her inability to explain her position with clarity and consistency.

Also, where was Hillary when Bill was "repeatedly" defending "Bush against the left on Iraq"?

"I have repeatedly defended President Bush against the left on Iraq, even though I think he should have waited until the U.N. inspections were over," Clinton said in a Time magazine interview that will hit newsstands Monday, a day before the publication of his book "My Life."

Clinton, who was interviewed Thursday, said he did not believe that Bush went to war in Iraq over oil or for imperialist reasons but out of a genuine belief that large quantities of weapons of mass destruction remained unaccounted for.

link


In the middle of the 2004 campaign to make Bush a one-term president (select) for his illegal invasion, Bill Clinton was defending him.



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sloppyjoe25s Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. That is a very good additional comparison
which also makes it clear she is not ready to be president.
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