Cheating going on in Ohio and Texas???? you be the judge..

[flyarm]

mods, i am posting all of this so people going to a caucus can know what the rules are..this is mixed with the rules for both states and what has been going on.


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http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/3/4/142712/2196

Dirty Tricks in Texas and Ohio?
By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:27:12 PM EST
Tags: Texas '08, Ohio '08 (all tags) Share This:
I'm receiving reports that contrary to Texas Democratic party caucus rules that preclude registration forms from being submitted before either 7:15 pm or the last vote at a precinct has been cast, Obama volunteers are handing out the forms at precincts today and asking people to fill them in and then collecting them. For Obama to submit the forms on the voters' behalf without the voter physically being present at the caucus would violate the rules.

The rules state:

Participants may NOT begin signing in until the precinct convention has been called to order. The call to order may not occur until 7:15 p.m. OR whenever the last voter finishes voting at that polling location whichever is later. If, after the convention has been called to order and participants have signed in, any participant who wishes to leave may do so, and their sign in WILL count toward the delegate allocation for each candidate. Sign-In ends when the last person present waiting to sign in has done so.

If any Texas voter has witnessed this, feel free to let me know. More on the rules and some disturbing reports from Ohio below:


In Ohio, Marc Ambinder reports:

Ohio's Secretary of State, an office held by a Democrat, has rebuked Sen. Barack Obama's campaign for trying to staff precincts with poll workers who presented insufficient credentials. Obama's campaign calls this charge "wrong."

In a memo sent late this morning to county election directors by David M. Farrell, Ohio's
Deputy Assistant Secretary of State, a letter carried by Obama supporters -- signed by Obama state director Paul Tewes -- is deemed "not legally sufficient on its own to allow someone to gain access to polling places." Farrell notes that state law requires that polling observers must be "duly appointed" and have been previously issued a certificate.

Ambinder has posted the letter saying the authorization is insufficient and the authorization. The problem this can cause:

The alleged infraction seems minor, but the Clinton campaign has seized on the e-mail from the Secretary of State's office as evidence that the Obama campaign is trying to game the system in Ohio.

Lynn Utrecht, chief campaign counsel for Sen. Hillary Clinton, said that she'd recieved reports from the field of Obama poll workers being kicked out of precincts for aggressively challenging voters. Adding it up, she said, "and it's a pattern."

Back to the Texas caucus rules, here's more:

2) Attendees sign in on the roll sheets (“Exhibit A”) that are in the packet. ATTENDEES MAY ONLY SIGN IN FOR THEMSELVES. (see TCDP GUIDELINES p. 4 *) Only those persons who voted in the 2008 Democratic Primary may participate in the caucus. A person is verified in one of three ways: 1. The attendee’s voter registration card was stamped as having voted in the 2008 Democratic Primary, or 2. The attendee was given a stamped Party Affiliation Card when they voted, or 3. The attendee is listed in the precinct voter roster as having voted in the 2008 Democratic Primary. This is the roster of registered voters provided by the Democratic presiding judge. The roster will indicate those who voted Democratic in your precinct on March 4th and also includes those who Voted Early, or Voted by Mail.

5) The Chair, Secretary and caucus representatives determine the following and then announce:
a. the threshold for a caucus to be able to elect delegates

b. percent of people attending the precinct convention who support each candidate

c. number of delegates the supporters of each candidate are entitled to elect

There is an “E-Z Math Precinct Delegate Formula” sheet in the packet to help you. Please see mathematical examples at the end of these TCDP GUIDELINES.

Once the threshold and proportional allocation of delegates has been announced by the Chair of the precinct convention, it cannot be changed by any late arrivals to the convention. Late attendees can still sign in with their presidential preference and participate, but their arrival cannot change the threshold or the allocation of delegates.

[leftofcool]

1. This is breaking news right now.

[jsamuel]

2. Is this how Obama keeps winning caucuses?

having people sign in before hand and then count the signatures, that way they get to "vote all day" while Clinton's can't?

[LSparkle]

3. No mention of the Clinton campaign shenanigans in Texas?

In caucuses where they're outnumbered, urging her supporters to press to be the ones counting the votes? Even giving them talking points ... "Since we're outnumbered, in the interest of *FAIRNESS*, can one of our supporters be in charge of the delegate count?"

:eyes:

[AZBlue]

22. And I love the misleading first line of the OP:

I'm just here to help those who are voting today....

SMEARSMEARSMEARSMEARSMEARSMEAR
SMEARSMEARSMEARSMEARSMEARSMEAR
SMEARSMEARSMEARSMEARSMEARSMEAR
SMEARSMEARSMEARSMEARSMEARSMEAR
SMEARSMEARSMEARSMEARSMEARSMEAR
SMEARSMEARSMEARSMEARSMEARSMEAR

Fair and balanced all the way!
:sarcasm:

[flyarm]

27. ahhh i have no dog in the fight..i worked with the Edwards camp and i already voted

and my states delegates don't count..

and i was a delegate in 2004..

i believe in fair elections..i have spent a fortune of mine and my hubby's $$$ and time trying to get fair and legitimate elections for my state of Florida!

so save your bullshit ..will ya!..I went to Iowa and SC to work with the Edwards camp to help watch for anything irregular..

i live in 2 states and in my other state i was in court when votes went missing in 2006..i was there to aide the candidates through the process. and i do not vote there..but it was me who documented the insides of the machines in the wherehouse, and it was me who bought the candidates time because the candidates lawyers didn't know what they were doing ..and what to do.

i don't give a shit who wins as long as they win fairly..and from what i have seen up front..it makes me sick..

that really makes me sick...and believe me many of the lawyers ( of which i am not...but was trained by Andy Stephenson) who were in Iowa and Nevada for Edwards have no documented much of what we saw.

again i will say this..i care about fair and legitimate elections..do you have a problem with that??

fly

oh and PS/..i am disgusted with both the media and the dem party for ignoring what many of us where screaming about in Iowa..and documented and even took pictures of...but then again ..i am from Florida..and we are used to the Dem party ignoring voting problems..until 18,000 went missing of their own hand picked candidate...but have even now thrown her out with the bath water.

[flyarm]

4. Obama Campaign Reprimanded for Dirty Tricks

Obama Campaign Reprimanded for Dirty Tricks

http://taylormarsh.com/

MSNBC is covering this story right now.

I've been hearing this as well. But it seems the Obama campaign is trying to stack the deck in Texas, but also in Ohio. Marc Ambinder and Jeralyn have already written it up. Obama's campaign has been rebuked in Ohio, with Ambinder having the letter:


Ohio's Secretary of State, an office held by a Democrat, has rebuked Sen. Barack Obama's campaign for trying to staff precincts with poll workers who presented insufficient credentials.


As was just reported on MSNBC, Ohio has very strict rules on poll workers.

In Texas, the reports get worse. Obama's team are evidently copying caucus forms and having their supporters fill them out prior to the 7:15 p.m. deadline when the caucus is called to order. This means the voter wouldn't have to actually attend the caucus, but instead would simply have the Obama team hand in the caucus forms for the voter, which is clearly against the rules, which are very clear:


Participants may NOT begin signing in until the precinct convention has been called to order. The call to order may not occur until 7:15 p.m. OR whenever the last voter finishes voting at that polling location whichever is later. If, after the convention has been called to order and participants have signed in, any participant who wishes to leave may do so, and their sign in WILL count toward the delegate allocation for each candidate. Sign-In ends when the last person present waiting to sign in has done so.

[flyarm]

5. ha ..i worked as a precinct Co-Captain in Iowa..i wish i had known then our own would cheat..

i was there for Edwards..and the shit i saw..i have nightmares about!

it makes me sick.

but of course no one then was set up to take our complaints and to stop the cheating!

fly

ps the media saw it too..they just didn't report it to the American people..and how do i know they knew it..well a newsweek reporter was at my caucus and he saw what the other Co -captain and i saw..oh and the other co-captain with me, was a lawyer from San Fran...

and when we got back to our hotel ..the main one for the big media ..the cheating was all the buzz at the hotel bar..with the media!!

[murielm99]

14. I heard this from family members in Iowa

and from friends in Nebraska.

Some of them were Obama supporters before they saw the caucus shenanigans.

This is Chicago-style politics gone wild. It is too bad nobody believes it, and the media wouldn't report it until now. It was being dismissed as 'anecdotal.'

[murielm99]

23. The media may be saving these stories for later.

If Obama is the nominee, this can come back to bite him in the butt.

All these years, we have been complaining about republican dirty tricks and voter suppression. Now one of our own is doing it.

I am bookmarking this thread. This can hurt us later. The last thing I want to see is Grampa McCain as President.

[ExtraGriz]

10. so now these people will not show up for the caucus

thinking that they already voted for the caucus part.....these votes will be thrown out correct??

[flyarm]

37. they damn well better be! and they better be checking for the people to match the sign up papers!

this makes me sick..and i saw worse!

fly

[scheming daemons]

6. Projection by the Hillary campaign....

Rove's rule book, item #1

"Accuse your opponent of something that is, in actuality, being done by your campaign."



When Hillary starts screaming about misleading flyers... I know she's guilty of sending out misleading flyers.


When Hillary starts screaming about "cheating in caucuses"... I know she's guilty of trying to cheat in caucuses.

[jsamuel]

7. sorry, but counting votes at a caucus of people who aren't there is cheating

not even procedural

[WolverineDG]

12. That doesn't sound like what they are doing

but, don't let the facts (or the rules which do allow this for the purpose of filling out your delegation only) get in your way.

dg

[jsamuel]

13. What it sounds like.

"For Obama to submit the forms on the voters' behalf without the voter physically being present at the caucus would violate the rules."

Fact:

"Participants may NOT begin signing in until the precinct convention has been called to order. The call to order may not occur until 7:15 p.m. OR whenever the last voter finishes voting at that polling location whichever is later."


If there is some other information that I have not seen, I will be happy to take a look at it. However, what it looks like, based on what I have read so far, is cheating.

[WolverineDG]

17. Only if they were submitted to calculate threshold & delegation strength

It IS allowed to write in names BEFORE THE CONVENTION IS ADJOURNED for the purpose of filling out your delegation (the size of which has already been calculated based on those who are present). Once the convention is adjourned, no one may add any names to the sign-in sheet.

You have to elect delegates & alternates at the convention. Say your caucus gets 10 delegates. You also have to name 10 alternates. 15 people are present in your caucus, & divvy up the slots among themselves. 5 alternate slots are left over, so they can at this point add 5 names to fill out their delegation.


dg

[jsamuel]

21. a lot of if's there

IF they do not use them until after all delegates have been assigned, fine. However, it seems like they could throw these in with the total voting pile and get massive leads with no one knowing the difference. I heard a story about a Kansas caucus precinct where if you counted the people Clinton won by a few, but the people who ran it (Obama supporters) counted signatures instead of people and Obama won by a large margin.

[blogslut]

18. Perhaps they are collection provisional voter forms

Read up on provisional caucusing in Texas:

http://www.txdemocrats.org/page/-/2008%20Convention/Precinct%20Convention%20materials/TDPpctconvmemo_TDP%20edits.pdf

Provisional participants will be treated consistently with the way provisional voters are treated
under the election code, pending verification of their eligibility. After sign in's are complete, the
Precinct Convention Chair will establish the threshold and presidential preference calculation
without including the provisional voters, and that will be the official calculations included on the
Minutes.

Now, read up on provisional voting in Texas:

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/EL/content/word/el.006.00.000064.00.doc

[jsamuel]

24. are you suggesting that people who are on the roles can caucus early by provisional ballots?

and don't have to show up?

Still sounds like cheating.

Provisional ballots (or any other ballot) cannot be collected by campaigners for a campaign and then given to the counters. Even if there was some loop hole, that would sow it up.

[blogslut]

26. Actually, I think they can

I'm still looking through the code. I read on some site that there might be this possibility in our crazy caucus rules.

However, I will add that the Obama people may have been collecting the proper forms to insure that provisional ballots are counted if the need arises. According to Texas code, when a person votes provisional in our election, they must also fill out a form and seal it in an envelope.

That might explain this collecting of forms and envelopes:

(3) Prior to casting a provisional ballot, the Voter shall be required to sign a Provisional Ballot Affidavit Envelope. The Provisional Ballot Affidavit Envelope shall state that the Voter is a registered Voter in the political subdivision and a resident on election day and that he is eligible to vote in the election. The Provisional Ballot Affidavit Envelope shall also require the information necessary to register the Voter, if he proves to be unregistered. A Voter who refuses to sign the Provisional Ballot Affidavit Envelope is not eligible to vote provisionally.

[jsamuel]

28. but they cannot collect votes from voters, that would be illegal

[blogslut]

29. How do you know they were collecting votes?

The blog post gives little to no context except that they saw Obama workers collecting envelopes. No exploration into what they did with the envelopes.

[jsamuel]

31. You are the one saying that the registrations are like provisional ballots.

If they are like provisional ballots, then the Obama people can't collect them.

[blogslut]

35. The thing is, there is no proof

Of any mass-collection of of envelopes. Nor is there a report about what was written on those forms, filled out by voters. There are also regulations, covering provisional voters unable to access their polling locations due to health, disability, etc.

Some yahoo saw some form being filled out and put into envelopes and automatically assumes the forms were caucus forms.

[bvar22]

30. Completely BOGUS.

Someone has to be physically present at a Caucus to vote.
There are NO absentee ballots OR Proxy voting at a Caucus.

Somebody is blowing a LOT of smoke.

[IsItJustMe]

34. The caucus hasn't even happened yet. WTF?

[msongs]

8. therefore when obama criticizes the war, he is really in favor of it? nice logic nt

[flyarm]

9. ahhh they are lawyers and they know what they are looking for now!!

see alot of Edwards lawyers caught the Obama folks too!!

fly

[jillan]

15. Then why is the SoS of Ohio reprimanding his campaign?

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/03/ohio_secretary_of_state_rebukes_obama_campaign.php

[indimuse]

19. Zacly!

What your boy has been doing the entire campaign. I think his star is fading~~~ don't you?

[WolverineDG]

11. Sounds like they were collecting names to fill out their delegations

which, btw, is legal, since no names can be added to the sign-in sheet once the convention is adjourned. Names thus collected from people not present at the convention, however, will not count towards threshold or delegate allocations at the convention.

dg

[juajen]

32. And, who in the world wil make sure this doesn't happen?

I really believe caucuses should be illegal, period. The inefficiency is ridiculous and the cheating rampant. This, we do not need. I can't believe that dems are actually cheating to promote their candidate? Uh, get real. People are people, whether dem or pug. A smart party would make sure this cannot happen. Let me see, which party has closed caucuses and primaries?

[tabatha]

16. There is some other funny stuff going on here:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/4/95525/48051/345/468502

[flyarm]

20. sorry i will not read dailyobama anymore!!..eom

[flyarm]

25. Phone numbers to call if you see dirty crap!

mods again i am posting this in full as it has phone numbers for people to call if they have problems or see cheating while voting.


http://noquarterusa.net/blog/
Obama’s Dirty Tricks in Texas and Ohio »
By SusanUnPC on March 4, 2008 at 3:10 PM in Texas, Ohio, Bamboozling, Barack Obama | 27 Comments

UPDATE x3: “Ohio Flooding: Some Polling Places Moved, Lots of Cross-Over Voters,” Jeralyn Merritt, TalkLeft (Jeralyn is on top of this, thank god, especially since she is an attorney and media adviser.)

UPDATE x2, 1:46 p.m. PST: “UPDATED STATEMENT FROM OHIO FOR HILLARY STATE DIRECTOR ROBBY MOOK ON TODAY’S VOTING

Voters Can Call [phone] To Report Irregularities At The Polls” (The rest of this memo is at the end of the story.)

Original: GET THIS STORY OUT. TELL EVERYONE. If you are on the ground in Texas or Ohio, and notice any irregularities, you can report them to the Clinton campaign via this form: “Polling Problems.” UPDATE: Ben Smith at Politico.com is reporting that “Ohio official rejects Obama poll-watcher letter.” (”An official in the office of the Ohio Secretary of State has written local election officials instructing them not to accept an Obama campaign letter (.pdf) as sufficient documentation for poll-watchers to polling places. …”)

Jeralyn at Talkleft has the breaking story, “Dirty Tricks in Texas and Ohio?“:

I’m receiving reports that contrary to Texas Democratic party caucus rules that preclude registration forms from being submitted before either 7:15 pm or the last vote at a precinct has been cast, Obama volunteers are handing out the forms at precincts today and asking people to fill them in and then collecting them. For Obama to submit the forms on the voters’ behalf without the voter physically being present at the caucus would violate the rules.

Jeralyn, an attorney who’s a legal expert for the media, cites the rules:

Participants may NOT begin signing in until the precinct convention has been called to order. The call to order may not occur until 7:15 p.m. OR whenever the last voter finishes voting at that polling location whichever is later. If, after the convention has been called to order and participants have signed in, any participant who wishes to leave may do so, and their sign in WILL count toward the delegate allocation for each candidate. Sign-In ends when the last person present waiting to sign in has done so.

Jeralyn asks any Texas voter who has witnessed this to let her know. Then she cites more on the rules and includes some “disturbing reports from Ohio.” Read all. Read the rest
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/3/4/142712/2196

[EFerrari]

33. I don't get it. Isn't this a dirty trick only AFTER those bodies doen't show up?

Eta: And, why are they not accepting the Obama poll watch letter?

[flyarm]

38. no they are not to be given the sign up sheet until 7:15 pm or after the polls close.

they were handing them out at polling places all day today ( unless caught and they have been caught all over doing it!)letting people sign them so they could hand them in tonight ..without the people showing up at the caucus..its called cheating! Its called fraud..i hope the people who signed them know they just committed an election crime.

and i hope they will all be held accountable.

fly

[crispini]

36. all election judges in my county have been issued strict instructions not to release the packet

which contains the sign in sheet until 7:15. I got the notice


Edited to fix time

[flyarm]

39. ThanksCrispini..glad you are there doing the good work..too bad there are bad apples ..on

both side it seems..and that makes me very sad and sick to my stomach..i was sick in Iowa to see the cheating on our side..and i am still sick over it..i didn't sleep after seeing it..my husband can attest to that..because he knows i won't get over it very quick.

and yes i am damn angry about it as well.

How can we scream about repub cheating..and i have for many years now and fought against it and fought for paper ballots in the two states i live in ..and have out up alot of our own money to stop it....and then see a dem cheat and tolerate that and not be damn angry?

Thank you for working In Texas Crispini..i know with you at a precinct ..it will be done right!!

and fair.

fly