Are Caucuses really the will of the electorate?

[BooScout]

Or are they just Bully Pulpits? I think the remaining Superdelegates who have yet to commit need to have a big think about their support. When one candidate wins the Primary and the popular vote in a state and another candidate wins the caucus I start having major doubts about how the system has been manipulated.

[anonymous171]

1. Primaries are easily manipulated. Caucuses tend to be disorganized.

Both have faults.

[CalGator]

5. caucuses require actual votes

For some reason Hillary does better when Diebold counts votes rather than when human do. Damned if I can figure out why? :shrug:

[MonkeyFunk]

11. Such a lame lie

You guys pull this shit every time she wins.

Caucuses suck big time. Clinton won the primary - your cheap accusations are baseless and petty.

[CalGator]

15. right, no voter fraud exists

nothing to see here, folks.

[MonkeyFunk]

18. What's your evidence it occurred in Texas?

Clinton winning isn't evidence.

[CalGator]

21. Because the 47% of Repukes who voted for her in the primary

Won't hold up a Hillary sign in the caucus, and Diebold isn't counting votes in the caucus. that is why Hillaruy has lost aout 11/13 caucuses. She can;t win when votes are COUNTED. She has more in common with * than just being in the DLC.

[MonkeyFunk]

24. Where's your evidence of voter fraud?

More republicans voted for Obama.

[flyarm]

35. maybe because your guy has repigs coming over to vote for him..or cheaters?

and all the states obama has won has pretty much been an open state..he has won no closed state as of yet..i don't believe..that means repigs can vote for him and indy;s and throw the election..gee ya think in all the red states someone may want obama to win???????????

[flyarm]

37. maybe because your guy has repigs coming over to vote for him..or cheaters?

and all the states obama has won has pretty much been an open state..he has won no closed state as of yet..i don't believe..that means repigs can vote for him and indy;s and throw the election..gee ya think in all the red states someone may want obama to win???????????

[flyarm]

34. lets see what cheating took place today..shall we..how about locking hillary voters out of caucus's?

and the Texas Marshalls had to be called in and they busted the doors open..hows that sound? it is documented on many web sites tonight..and most likely there will be charges against those who committed vote fraud.

http://taylormarsh.com/



Clinton campaign counsel Lyn Utrecht, (UPDATE: Obama's lead counsel crashed the call - I had to ring off to go on C-SPAN.) who I believe was on the call earlier, just sent out this memo to the press:


March 4, 2008

MEMORANDUM

TO: Interested Parties

FROM: Lyn Utrecht
Campaign Counsel

RE: Caucus Irregularities

The campaign legal hotline has been flooded with calls containing specific accusations of irregularities and voter intimidation against the Obama campaign. This activity is undemocratic, probably illegal, and reflects a wanton disregard for the caucus process.

The three most egregious categories are:

1) Irregularities: Prematurely Taking Precinct Convention Packets by Obama Campaign

Numerous calls have shown that Obama supporters prematurely removed convention packets from polling places. Packets may not legally given out until 7:15 PM or when the last voter has cast a ballot in the primary. The Texas State Party warned the Obama campaign in writing that they may not take these packets early or remove them from the polling locations. The Party directed that these irregularities be reported to law enforcement “since they amount to criminal violations.” The Party stated “removing convention packets . . . will not be tolerated.”

A sampling of the precincts where this occurred are:

659 – Tarrant
709 – Houston
2316 – Tarrant
1205 – Dallas
3127 – Bexar
3082 – Fort Bend
18/224 – Harris
3221 – Dallas
87 – El Paso
851 – Houston
115 - Harris
470 – Galveston
388 – Harris
3000 – Dallas
1214 – Dallas
20 – Medina
205 – Walker

2) Voter Intimidation: Lock-out of Clinton caucus goers by Obama Campaign

Numerous calls have been received that the Obama campaign has taken over caucus sites and locked the doors, excluding Clinton campaign supporters from participating in the caucus. The Clinton supporters have been unable to enter the premises to caucus. In at least one instance, law enforcement was called and forcibly opened the caucus site.

A sampling of the precincts where this occurred are:

4401 – Dallas
2052 – Tarrant
4402 – Dallas
75 – Harris
18 – Hardin
259 – Harris
124 – Nueces
4050 – Tarrant
115 – Harris
6 – Roma County
78 – Jefferson
117 – Denton

3. There are numerous instances of Obama supporters filing out precinct convention sign-in sheets during the day and submitting them as completed vote totals at caucus. This is expressly against the rules. The sign-in sheets were copied by the Obama campaign from the Texas Democratic Party website and taken by supporters to various polling places to sign-up caucus goers prior to the start of the caucuses

[laconicsax]

40. Didn't you get the memo?

Only the Clinton campaign pulls shit like this. Most likely, the complaints were filed by paid Clinton operatives.

:sarcasm:

[avaistheone1]

61. Caucuses are conducted differently in various states.

My understanding is that in some states the caucuses take an open vote versus a private one --- which concerns me. I think those caucuses can be more easily manipulated by the more aggressive members of the caucus.

[joshcryer]

28. A vote that is coerced into being is not an actual vote.

Anonymous voting is a fundamental democratic right for a reason.

[LulaMay]

2. No......and they should be stopped.

[casus belli]

3. Are they voters? n/t

[bluestateguy]

4. A caucus shows who has the most committed supporters

I think they are important.

[anonymous171]

6. Good for primaries at least.

[Horse with no Name]

7. They also exclude a majority of shiftworkers, single parents who have to stay home with the kids,

elderly people who don't drive, etc.
They lay unnecessary hardships on voters that sometimes cannot be overcome.

[MonkeyFunk]

13. Not really

they show who has the most committed voters who have the luxury of going somewhere for three hours at an assigned time to vote. People who have no social phobias, who can get off work, can afford babysitters, etc. etc.

They're decidedly undemocratic.

[joshcryer]

29. Lest we forget the reason DU exists, too. One vote = one count, and all.

Caucusing goes against those very simple democratic principles.

[MonkeyFunk]

39. Yep

but some people are more than willing to throw that away if it benefits their candidate.

In the greatest irony of all, they want to disenfranchise Florida.

[BooScout]

52. No they show the supporters who should be committed...

You're close, but no cigar.

[Zynx]

53. Thank God the General Election isn't like that or else the fundies would

always win then.

[babylonsister]

8. Lester Holt tonight was amazed at the bare-bones, raw caucus, and

I do think he was digging it, raw democracy and all.

[flyarm]

26. a caucus is not democracy...it is disenfranchisement. eom

[nebula]

9. Can't do anything about it now

the rules are rules. You can't change them in the middle of a race.

I doubt you would be complaining about the Caucus system right now if they had favored your candidate, HC.

[BooScout]

57. Did I suggest changing the rules now?

No I didn't. I do however think the 'rules' should be looked at very closely after this election and yes THEN I think they should be ammended. I personally think Primaries should be closed to registered members of the party only. That will keep crossover manipulation to a minimum....and let the party chose it's nominee rather than fairweather voters.

[PseudoIntellect]

10. Caucuses may be less democratic...

but what about the superdelegates? I'd say they're even less democratic than caucuses.

[Eric J in MN]

12. Maybe the DNC should tell states to get rid of caucuses for the presidential...

...choice for 2012.

Telling thousands of people to go to the same place at the same time is a recipe for traffic jams and long lines.

People who can't wait in long lines shouldn't count less than people who can.

[Apollo11]

41. Strongly agree!

Someone needs to put a stop to this madness.

If not the DNC - then who?

[flyarm]

14. they are not democratic..and they do not represent the will of all the people!

they do not represent "we the people" they only represent those who can go.

The military is excluded from voting if they are away from home for service.

Ill people are excluded.

Many disabled can not go.


I met a vet in Iowa..who has cancer from agent orange..he wanted to vote in Iowa but his type of cancer was at a stage he could not be exposed to anyone with germs he could get sick with..he was on a medication that made his immune system shut down.

He was angry he could not vote/caucus.

This was a man who had been through 20+ surgeries because of his service to this country..and he was not being allowed to use his voice ..to vote.

what kind of system is this that eliminates voters at will?

another lady i met had a severly retarded son..her husband was staying home so she could caucus..but both could not go..as they do not leave the child with anyone except family and the family was gone on Xmas / new years Holidays..

so one member of that family was eliminated from caucusing/voting

many seniors told us that they just couldn't go because of health reasons..now these are many who have served this nation..in the military..i think that is disgusting..these are people who have paid their taxes all their lives..and they are eliminated from having their voice heard because they are not strong enough or healthy enough to go caucus for several hours...and they have very real reasons to have their voice heard..but they are silenced.

the young have the advantage..and the married and responsible are at a disadvantage..if they work or have children. and seniors are at a serious disadvantage.

I am glad i do not live where there are caucus's..

and i sure as hell do not like this open state voting..i am also glad i live in a closed state for voting..why the hell should those of us who support in every way the democratic party..not decide our nominee...why should indy's have as much say as those of us who work for the party and contribute to the party..and declare who the hell we are..

and then have indy's come along with no investment in our party decide our nominee..or like we have seen in many states..repukes coming over and trying to throw our elections??????????

i think that sucks!

fly

[BooScout]

58. Excellent points n/t

[MADem]

16. The Caucus System Disenfranchises.

The shift workers...those cops, doctors, nurses, firefighters, cabbies, department store clerks, janitors, security guards, a HUGE chunk of the population that doesn't work Monday through Friday, nine to five--they're hosed.

The ill, the aged, the unwell...patients in hospitals, people in rest/nursing homes who are too frail or sick to caucus, people who are disabled and cannot travel easily. They're left out.

Those who have no transportation to and from an evening event. Find a ride, maybe?

Those who can't get a sitter.

Those who have the NERVE to be out of state for a family event, a vacation, an emergency, a business trip...or MILITARY SERVICE.

Voting however, can be done by ALL of these people, with Ye Olde Absentee Ballot, or by stopping by to vote BEFORE you start that shift.

The caucus system is, frankly, idiotic. It is the opposite of representative, but some states, for some stupid reason, like it. I blame the caucus system for the quality of candidates we end up with. And that is not a positive remark, generally.

[Levgreee]

17. I've always been able to get half a day or a day off for any job I had, I don't see why the vast

majority cannot do the same, if they want to. It's one day a year, set your priorities.

[Horse with no Name]

19. then you have never had a really shitty job with a crappy boss

When my daughter worked at Sonic...she couldn't call in unless she had a doctors note or a death certificate. At Sonic.
No note...no certificate...no job.
There are LOTS of crappy employers like that.
I'm glad you have never encountered one but you really shouldn't be so fucking elite to think you are a better citizen than they are.

[MADem]

30. What was WRONG with her? She didn't "set her priorities?"

:sarcasm:

:rofl: The LAAAZY thing!!!! :rofl:

[BzaDem]

20. How about those serving in our military? How about single moms with 3 kids to take care of? n/t

[MonkeyFunk]

22. Most people can't

police, firemen, nurses, postal workers, etc. etc.

They can't give everybody half a day off at the same time.

[flyarm]

23. i spent my life as a flight attendant...and on election day i was many times out of my home state

many times in another country..i always filled out an absentee ballot..because i never knew until my bids came in where and when i would be home.

I would have never been able to do a caucus...oh and there are no absentee ballots in caucus's..

I wasn't in a job like yours, that you are lucky enough to get 1/2 the day off..and many people do not get 1/2 the day off..their priorities are keeping their job to feed their family...or themselves.
Many many companies do not let their employees come in for 1/2 the day on election day!

my job was one of those..

fly

[MADem]

27. May you never end up in a wheelchair on oxygen. May you never be deployed

to Afghanistan and be unable to "set your priorities." You're plainly not a public safety official (police/fire) with no control over your schedule, nor, apparently, do you work at a shift working job where they aren't going to close down the department store/gas station/grocery store/convenience store/cab dispatch shop/whatever commercial enterprise to let workers go.

What an OBTUSE remark--"Set your priorities." Don't get hospitalized, and if you're a doctor or nurse, warn people to not get sick or in accidents so everyone at the hospital can "go caucus." Don't be old, either, on a walker, in a nursing home, in a rest home--"Set your priorities..." Tell all the prisoners in the jail to just be good, so the corrections workers can go caucus. Shift workers at power plants--say, let's shut the joint down, be it coal powered or nuclear, so the workers can go caucus, eh?

:eyes:

Set your priorities...

:eyes:

The caucus system disenfranchises. Everyone from the deployed military to the aged, the disabled, and the working man or woman who most needs representative government.

But whatever.

[Apollo11]

42. Excellent post!

Something for the caucus-lovers to think about.

[MADem]

46. When you're standing watch in some hellhole half a world away

it's good to be from a "primary" as opposed to a caucus state and get that big envelope delivered with the absentee ballot in it.

I imagine anyone who was disabled, ill, or just had to work to pay the damned light bill is grateful for being able to cast a ballot, either absentee, or at a polling station and continue on about their business, and not have to meet in a gymnasium and stand around for an hour or five to jawbone a bunch of strangers. I've never been enamoured of choosing a candidate by having a pack of people bully you into changing your mind.

No one wants to be hectored and told that the candidate that most represents their values is not "viable" simply because a bunch of stupid clowns in a gymnasium say so. It's just .... undemocratic, the caucus process.

It may have been quaint back in the day when buggy whip manufacturing was a viable concern, but it isn't nowadays. It's a concept whose time has passed, IMO.

[joshcryer]

31. Because the vast majority of *Democratic* citizens have shit jobs, and shit lives.

The poor, working class, and all that. They can't afford to do it. If you can, that's great for you. If you're politically involved, great for you.

That's not the reality for the vast majority of Democratic citizens.

[BooScout]

60. I was never allowed more than an hour to vote....

If every employer gave their employee a half day or day off to vote do you even comprehend how much money that would cost them? Better to at least have Saturday or Sunday voting......better yet, the entire weekend.

[Barack_America]

25. I would LOVE to participate in a caucus.

If you're going to stand for something, stand for it. If you're going to vote, educate yourself about your choice well enough that you cannot be swayed.

At least with caucuses we are CERTAIN that our votes are counted!

[flyarm]

32. no you are not..there was serious cheating in Iowa! I and many of the lawyers in Iowa for

Edwards saw it and documented it.

serious cheating!!

and there was serious cheating tonight in Texas...big time!

a caucus is as far from democracy as you can get.
It disenfranchises many many more than can go to a caucus.

Do you want only a hand full of people in your state deciding your nominee???????????

fly

[Barack_America]

33. Are you assuming that cheating does not happen in a primary?

That all votes cast will be counted? Tell that to the 100,000 independents who voted in LA.

On the best of days, only 20-30% of people show up to a primary, so, like it or not, a handful of people pretty much always decide our nominee.

However, that "handful of people" comment is interesting. Should I take it that you are opposed to a handful of superdelegates deciding our nominee?

[Buve]

44. VOTERS

I want voters to determine our nom. NOT the bananna republic activities of some crazed supporters, no matter what side.

[babylonsister]

50. In TX, people can actually vote and caucus, every last

vote can caucus. So how is that disenfranchising anyone?

[Buve]

43. WHY do they exist

I do more "talking with my neighbors" on DU then I've ever done during any caucus.

Caucus is a dead art form. Save party money and spend it on per county forums.

[last_texas_dem]

36. No, but I'm not sure there is an ideal voting method

to reflect the will of the electorate. Open primaries allow for non-party members to "spoil" the selection of a party's candidate, while closed primaries shut out independents who might help a party to choose a more electable candidate. The system is a mess but I'm not sure there's an ideal way to improve it. (Although eliminating superdelegates and not allowing any state to hold a primary or caucus until March would be a start.)

[amborin]

38. caucuses are not democratic

they often involve a lot of smokey back room arm twisting

especially back there in Iowa

lots of really shady stuff

straight up primary votes are private, democratic, fair

[cyclezealot]

45. nah.

I doubt they are even the will of the party faithful. Remember how vavious states refused to change the hours to make it for convenient for working people.

[paperbag_ princess]

47. the caucus system leaves people out of the process

especially women (who are the vast majority of caregivers)

the elderly, the infirm, the working poor, etc


Primaries are a little better. If we were really serious about counting every vote and making voting accessible to all we would have a mail in system like Oregon.

[shaniqua6392]

48. Caucuses disenfranchise voters.

Some of us do not have the luxury of being able to take time off work and lose pay to go to a caucus for a few hours.

[democrattotheend]

51. Most states have laws requiring employers to give time off for voting

Usually paid. I know Washington State has a law like that...Clinton's campaign should have done a better job of educating working class voters about that.

[Horse with no Name]

54. Texas is a right to work state

Pull that shit on your employer...DEMAND to be let off, find yourself fired.
Sorry...no amount of education is going to force someone who needs a job to risk that.

[BadgerLaw2010]

62. Look up "good reason, bad reason or no reason."

[shaniqua6392]

63. Oh my boss would just love that!!

Kiss my job goodbye. And I am sure I would not be the only one that would risk losing a job, laws or no laws.

[joeprogressive]

49. It's the will of the more educated

This is where Obama has a decided advantage

[Zynx]

55. I would never caucus. Those around me have no right to know who I support and why.

[jefferson_dem]

56. That's right! No more undemocratic processes in the Democratic Party!

Let's demand the largely unelected, unaccountable so-called "Super Delegates" tell us who our nominee should be!

I'll patiently await their verdict.

[Raiden]

59. Why do Hillary supporters hate the rules?

I see a pattern:

Nevada...at large caucuses are unfair
South Carolina...Jesse Jackson won there...doesn't count
DNC punishing FL and MI for shooting their load too early...Disenfrachisment
New Democratic Voters...Unfair
Open Primaries...Unfair
Open Caucuses...Unfair
TX Caucus...Unfair
Pledged Delegates...Unfair
Superdelegates...Fair...oops...now they're unfair
Campaign mailers...SHAME ON YOU!

Hillary only likes the rules when they are favorablev to her. She's a bully and when the game doesn't go her way not only does she not like it...she pours gasoline all about the playground and strikes a match!

[Marie26]

64. Caucuses suck

I thought they had them in small states because they're cheaper. But then Texas has a primary AND a caucus? Why would they double the cost like that?