Seat the Florida and Michigan delegates now, and lets move on!

[Bo Bike]

This country cannot allow another 4 years of a Republican in the White House. This continuous bickering and infighting among the democratic candidates will do just that. How do we move forward from here?

A) Seat the delegates in Florida as is. Even thought the DNC disqualified the delegates because of a Republican fast one (Republican governor and legislators moved up the primary date hoping this would happen) the primary in that state was even. Both candidates pledged and did not actively campaign in that state. Despite being told their vote would not count, record numbers of Democrats turned out to vote and their votes should be counted now.

B) Seat the delegates in Michigan proportionally by applying the uncommitted votes to Obama. This may seem unfair to Obama supporters but you snooze you lose. The Clinton campaign had the foresight to realize that if this race was close the Michigan delegates may have to be seated. So they made a strategic move to leave her name on the ballot and that looks like a smart move now. Sorry Obama supporters, the Clinton campaign out smarted your guy. He doesn’t leave empty handed though, he does get the proportional delegates from the uncommitted vote.

C) Let the rest of the caucuses and primaries play out so we can have a nominee by early summer. We then can unite, join together and deliver our party’s nominee in to the White House.

This needs to be done now, for the sake of the party. Imagine what 4 more years of a Republican in the White House will do to the Supreme Court. The Democratic Party and civil rights for all Americans will be set back decades. This we cannot afford. Lets seat these delegates now and move on!

[Mooney]

1. No.

[shadowknows69]

2. Anyone else want to field this one AGAIN?

I'm too tired.

[seabeyond]

20. i was going to say. too tired. a simple no worked for me below. n/t

[DJ13]

3. No frikken way.

[madfloridian]

4. No. Hell, no.

http://dnc.org/a/2008/03/dean_on_morning.php#more

Watch the five powerful appearances of Dean this morning. NO change of rules.

[AX10]

5. kick

[SeattleGirl]

6. No way.

They were told their votes didn't count, so lots of the FL folks stayed home.

I am a huge proponent of having people's votes count, and I don't like the idea of MI and FL delegates not being seated, but it needs to be a do-over with people understanding that this time, the votes absolutely count. Otherwise, the disenfranchisement would just continue.

[Bo Bike]

13. Unrealistic. It will take too much time and cost too much $$$.

Who is going to pay for it? Each state would have to mail out absentee ballots to over seas residents and military personnel and organize and reschedule elections. The best way to do it is seat them now and move on.

[SeattleGirl]

19. Sorry, but people having their vote counted is priceless to me.

You ever been disenfranchised? I have. It is NOT a pleasant feeling, and years and years later, it still pisses me off. The gubmit can find money to fight a fucking illegal war; surely it can find money to pay for a legitimate election.

[Bo Bike]

24. What about the voters that voted the first time?

Do they not count? Did we forget that there was a primary in each state already? Nobody was disenfranchised, voters in each state already had an opportunity to vote and those votes should be counted.

[seabeyond]

27. Do they not count? ... no they dont and they were told that before they voted. n.t

[Bo Bike]

29. But voted anyway? Interesting. n/t

[seabeyond]

31. dlc pushed the vote to pressure dnc to changing rules. dlc took the risk with their voters.

the voters now have to pay the price because dlc lost in that risk. a bitch. it was wrong they did that to the voters. bad bad dlc. go get them.....

[MonkeyFunk]

33. What the hell did the DLC have to do with this?

you people are getting more and more irrational.

[SeattleGirl]

34. The DLC sucks.

They threw a temper tantrum when MI and FL changed their voting dates. "Fine! You won't play by the rules? We'll show YOU! We won't count the votes!" (Stolen from Randi Rhodes.)

The reason I think a do-over is necessary is because of how things went down originally. You tell people their vote doesn't count, or you eliminate people from the ballot, then you are being unfair to the voters. They should get a chance to do it up right, or if they aren't willing to do that, then just split the delegates down the middle. I don't like that idea, but I do like it more than telling people they don't matter.

[MonkeyFunk]

45. No, that was the DNC

The DLC has nothing to do with this, outside the fevered adn increasingly-psychotic imaginations of Clinton-haters.

[SeattleGirl]

47. Ooops, you're right.

My bad. :blush:

[SeattleGirl]

28. Wrong.

In Florida, as I said, people were told that their votes wouldn't count.

And in MI, Clinton was on the ballot, but Obama wasn't. People didn't even have the choice to vote for him if they wanted, because if they wrote his name in (or Edwards, Biden, etc.), they were told their vote wouldn't count, that their ballot would be invalid.

What I am saying is that the votes of EVERYONE should be counted, and people should know they count when they go in.

I'm not advocating for Obama here; I'm advocating for the right of people to vote, and to know their vote counted.

[Bo Bike]

32. You snooze you lose.

The Clinton campaign had the foresight to realize that if this race was close the Michigan delegates may have to be seated. So they made a strategic move to leave her name on the ballot. Obama willingly pulled his name off the ballot. You can’t blame that on the voter. If it didn’t count why did so many voters show up at the polls?

[seabeyond]

36. If it didn’t count why did so many voters show up ... the people who fucked the voters

were trying to strong arm dnc into breaking the rules for them by force of voter. a bit of blackmail. see all the voters voting, you cant say no to them

why the hell should that behavior be rewarded.

[SeattleGirl]

38. Who in the fuck blackmailed the DLC?

The voters should NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT be punished for the sins of the few. Do you not get that?

[SeattleGirl]

37. Bullshit! Hilary pledged to take her name off the ballot, and she didn't.

And furthermore, if the party elders fuck things up, the voters should not be the ones to pay for it.

[Bo Bike]

44. I don’t think that is true but nevertheless she left her name on the ballot

I agree with you that, because the party elders screwed it up we shouldn’t let the voters pay. So seat the delegates!

[SeattleGirl]

48. She did take the pledge, yet she left her name on the ballot.

And yes, let's seat the delegates, but only after another vote where everyone understands that their vote counts, and that both Obama and Clinton are on the ballot.

Look, if they do that, and Clinton gets the majority of the votes, that's fine. This isn't so much about Obama or Clinton for me; it's about the right of the people to have their votes counted. The way it stands now, that's not the way it is.

[Bo Bike]

50. The voters disenfranchised by caucuses are greater then the so-called misinformed voters in FL and M

Those are notorious for disenfranchising the elderly and low income and blue caller workers. A lot of those people do not have an opportunity to go to caucuses because of work or other reasons. Maybe we should wipe out all the results from the caucus states and have them revote in a primary so no one is disenfranchised.

[SeattleGirl]

53. Look, I think that a) we should have a national primary/caucus day, and

b) every state should vote the same way, either in a caucus system, or in a primary.

I've been to caucuses, and I do like them, but I get what you're saying. I know a lot of people can't make it because of work or other issues. I was really looking forward to participating in the Washington caucus this year, as that is where most of the delegates came from, but because of a family issue, I couldn't go.

One again, the point of what I'm posting is that people should KNOW beforehand that their votes will count. You seat the delegates now, as is, and it's flat out unfair to many people.

Why is that so difficult to understand?

[Bo Bike]

55. I agree. I would be for a revote in FL and MI as well.

Will it happen in a timely fashion? I doubt it. With what’s at stake and for reasons of expediency we need to seat those delegates now. Short of a revote, seating the delegates as is and giving Obama the uncommitted is the fairest way to go. We need to get this behind us and move on before it’s to late and we lose the White House to McCain.

[Zachstar]

59. 1 day to be involved with your country out of 4 years.

They do not screw over anyone who gives a shit about the future rather than just slinking in and pulling a lever "When I am good and ready".

If you can't plan 6 months in advance to take 1 day off of whatever you are doing to participate in a Caucus then I say whatever. It is one of the few times it forces people to actually get involved with the process and is good for democracy.

And that is COMPLETE BULLSHIT about the wipe out of the caucus states. If the thought of that gets any higher than DU you will be saying hello to President McCain in November. Stripping an election because how you voted and when you were following the rules will cause a huge number of voters to hate democrats and exit. And I mean HUGE amounts.

You can't change the game midway. The chance for you to say that was years ago.

[Bo Bike]

62. Is our democracy that cheap?

We can spend trillions on this occupation in Iraq but not spend the money on an election system that will empower all voters?

This caucus because it’s cheap is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. If you can’t get there every 4 years you’re screwed. That is equal to a vote tax to some people that may lose pay so they can vote in a caucus. Sorry won’t fly.

50/50 is like saying I discarded the wrong card in poker and lost so lets split the pot in half. The Obama campaign screwed up because they willingly pulled his name of the ballot in MI. Sorry, you snooze you lose.

The 50/50 notion in Florida is also more sour grapes. That was an even playing field and those delegates should count as is.

[Zachstar]

69. I tried to not make it apparant I see through your smoke.

But it is quite obvious now you just want to cheat through the process to get the delegates seated as is.

Anything to get Clinton in eh?

Aint going to fly!

You talk about caucus = vote tax (Prove where you have to pay directly to caucus.. Note: Gas and lost pay does not equal vote tax) yet then you talk about the last vote being a "You snooze you lose"

You are laughable man. Everything about this Clinton front/FL front to seat the delegates from the cheating.. rouge.. states is smoke and mirrors. Fl is acting like a spoiled child and the Clinton supporters are egging on DIRECTLY faulted results.

Going after the Caucus system THIS late in the game is one thing. Wanting super flawed results to count as well is QUITE another.

Oh and 50/50 is just a way for them to say "No more mess" it will piss people off but it is not cause a major amount of cheating in 2010-2012 like a seating of existing delegates will.

Un-freeking-believable!

[Bo Bike]

70. HELLO? It doesn’t matter who you pay.

I said it is equal to a vote tax. Under the current caucus system your employer doesn’t give you paid time off to participate. Those that work at night will lose income to attend a caucus. Every one cannot be in one place at one time. What about the cop on the beat or the fire fighter or the emergency room worker? In a caucus system their vote doesn’t count?

I do not propose that we reverse the caucuses this election year. The reason I put that on the thread was because I was making a point with another DUer. If you read the whole thread you would know that. My point is if we are willing to except the flawed caucus system this year then excepting the results of MI and FL is not a big deal.

I would accept a revote in a primary system but 50/50 or a caucus is a no go.

It is idiotic to replace a disenfranchised vote with another disenfranchised vote.

No, accept the delegates the way they are or revote under a primary.

Unbelievable!

[Little Star]

68. Link of where she pledged to take her name off the ballot? Did

Kuch also? Lets face it. Obama made a major blunder in taking his name off, as well as Edwards. It was their own mistake to take their names off.

[dysfunctional press]

65. the voters were WELL AWARE of the fact that the delegates wouldn't count.

it wasn't any kind of secret.

[dkf]

67. Get Florida and Michigan Dem party to fund their own screwup.

If the people in those states care enough they will fund it themselves.

[seabeyond]

23. the best way is learn a lesson, dont break rules again and move on....n/t

[Bo Bike]

25. The voters in those states didn’t break any rules

yet they are the ones to pay by being disenfranchised.

[seabeyond]

26. same talkign point. nor did all those that didnt vote that are NOT important to you.

that is being a hypocrit.

[Bo Bike]

39. They chose not to vote. Polling places weren’t closed,

any body could have voted and a great deal of them did.

[SeattleGirl]

40. Hello? They chose not to vote because they were told their

votes WOULD NOT COUNT! What is so fucking difficult to understand about that?

[Bo Bike]

49. Hey seagirl! Calm down for crying out loud. You’re going to pop a vain.

The fact that they were told there votes weren’t going to count is irrelevant to the situation we have now. Do you thing out of the 2 million voters that did vote in the dem primary in Florida more Obama voters stayed home then Clinton supporters? I think not. The playing field was even. We need to seat these delegates now for the party’s sake. Obama chose to pull his name of the ballot in MI. Nobody held a gun to his head. Face it he was out snookered by the Clinton campaign. Its time to stop the bellyaching and Seat these delegates then MOVE ON!

[SeattleGirl]

52. Don't you mean, pop a vein?

And besides, I'm not talking about who a re-vote would favor. If a re-vote favors Clinton, then so be it.

What I am talking about is that people were TOLD their votes would not count in Florida, and if I had been told that, I may have stayed home too.

Pardon me, but I just can't get past the fairness thing.

[Bo Bike]

54. My spelling sucks. “Bad spellers of the world untie”

The voters disenfranchised by caucuses are greater then the so-called misinformed voters in FL and MI. Those are notorious for disenfranchising the elderly and low income and blue caller workers. A lot of those people do not have an opportunity to go to caucuses because of work or other reasons. Maybe we should wipe out all the results from the caucus states and have them revote in a primary so no one is disenfranchised.

[dysfunctional press]

66. yes, they did- the rules were broken in their names by their chosen reps...

that's the way it works in our political system.

get a fucking clue.

[rwheeler31]

7. 50 50 you broke it you got it.

[MercutioATC]

8. Hell no.

If they want a do-over, that's allowed by the rules.

That's the MOST they're entitled to.

[DesEtoiles]

9. you were greedy for that ad money - at the expense of the other states. Now YOU pay the price.

[Blue State Bandit]

10. Sure, they can come to the party....

but I'm sorry,

they can't pick the caterer.

[Patsy Stone]

11. No

I don't want my delegates seated.

[malik flavors]

12. Gov. Crist broke it and now his dumb-ass better figure out how to fix it. He's to blame.

[ExtraGriz]

14. they should seat them

it was fair and square.....no one campaign in florida so they had equal playing field....and obama took his name off the michigan race, thats his fault, he didnt have to do it.

[TheDoorbellRang]

15. No. Nada. No way. Forget it. Nope. Nyet. Nein.

And finally...no.

[Bo Bike]

21. A lot of you are saying no but not giving a reason.

I hope you’re not for disenfranchising voters in Florida and Michigan. That would be undemocratic.

[TheDoorbellRang]

35. read madfloridian's journal

she's been on top of this -- dare I say -- from day one.

[Rageneau]

16. The Fla-Mich situation PROVES Hillary should be president.

To correct a common misperception, all the Democratic candidates WERE on the ballot in Florida. Hillary won it going away, fair and square,

Clinton 857,208 50%
Obama 569,041 33%
Edwards 248,604 14%
Biden 15,429 1%
Richardson 14,782 1%
Kucinich 9,537 1%
Dodd 5,402 0%
Gravel 5,261 0%

Hillary played by the rules and she won. Excluding Florida's voters because of something Republicans forced them to do is neither fair nor smart.

Likewise, in Michigan, everybody had the same option. The other candidates showboated and took their names off the ballot, but Hillary was too shrewd to. She looked ahead and could foresee that there might be benefit in staying on the ballot, so she did. The other candidate shad the same option, but theu chose wrong.

In other words, Hillary's decisions to do what she did in Michigan and Florida clearly show that she out-thought and out maneuvered her opponents.

The person we choose for president needs to play fair but to play hard. Hillary does both. The person we should choose for president should be shrewder and wiser than the other candidates. Hillary obviously is. Because, sooner or later, Florida and Michigan are going to decide the nominee, and Hillary knew that long before anybody else did.

[TheDoorbellRang]

42. The state that gave its voters the butterfly ballot

presented them this year with their new, improved version: the flutterby primary.

Again, no. Do over or sit it out. It isn't "shrewd" to win by flouting the rules. It's called "cheating."

[Rageneau]

56. There was no cheating and you cannot cite any.

Some say America is a Christian nation. Christians accept the 10 Commandments, one of which is "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

Unless you can cite aome specific example of Hillary or her campaign "cheating" in any definable way during the Florida Primary, you are guilty of 'bearing false witness against your neighbor.'

Maybe you don't care about that. Many people don't.

But they should.

[TheDoorbellRang]

61. I didn't say she cheated "during" the Florida primary

I am saying that by doing the wide-eyed "oh let's just seat the delegates according to the results of the unsanctioned primary" is attempting to cheat now. Shrewd perhaps, but still...cheating.

[seabeyond]

17. no.

[mmonk]

18. There was a lot of agreement it seems with that republican

fast one. Only 1 dissenter in Florida, right?

[fadedrose]

22. NO NO NO

[ExFreeper4Obama]

30. Hell No!!!

I'm not interested in Soviet style elections.

[boppers]

41. Let FL and MI legitamately vote on the candidates first.

Once they have a legitimate election, they can be seated.

Until they actually have such an election, though, what's the point?

[Zachstar]

43. Unless you want to go 50/50 HELL NO!!

Besides Mi already decided they want a new vote. Why is having a new vote so bad? I know many Obama supporters have been calling for it for quite some time.

Unless you decided to have a 50/50 split for some damn reason. Seating the delegates as they are now will likely see the end of the democratic party. Untold numbers will bolt from the party and the republicans will be all over it calling us enablers of fucked up elections.

Come 2010 we will have our first primary for 2012 (Likely without a single major candidate) as so many states ignore DNC rules and leapfrog over each other to be first.

I support a revote as long as this bullshit will end already. I support a caucus in both states merely because it is quicker and cheaper. Tho in my view if FL wants to foot the bill they can have a primary if they want. I hear the primary will be over 10 million dollars as opposed to a quick and simple Caucus costing half of that (Don't quote me on the exact numbers as they have not done to full cost estimates yet)

If the candidates agree I think we ought to set the rouge states on the 2nd Tuesday of April as "Whatever the hell you want to call it this time Tuesday" or whatever you want to call it.

[Bo Bike]

57. I agree. I would be for a revote in FL and MI but not caucuses.

The voters disenfranchised by caucuses are greater then the so-called misinformed voters in FL and MI. Those are notorious for disenfranchising the elderly and low income and blue caller workers. A lot of those people do not have an opportunity to go to caucuses because of work or other reasons.

With what’s at stake and for reasons of expediency we need to seat those delegates now. Short of a revote seating the delegates as is and giving Obama the uncommitted is the fairest way to go.

We need to get this behind us and move on before it’s to late and we lose the White House to McCain. In the big picture it will not make that much of a difference in the dem primary. The party will survive.

[Zachstar]

58. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

Throwing anti-caucus shit into here serves nothing. The simple fact is that there is a reason there is only one primary per state that has them every 4 years... COST and TIME.

A primary means the extremely large setup fee and a panic to get the machines back online after they have already been used for this last primary. I expect the amount of machines that will break down will be MUCH higher than the last primary just to the fact that they are not supposed to be reused so fast.

If they have a primary it will likely have to be sometime late June to give them time to setup. And who foots the bill? That could delay it past the point of nogo.

A Caucus can be set up much faster and at a cost the DNC can reasonably pay if they so choose.

I am not trying to push a caucus because I am pro-obama. I simply have noted the extreme cost of primaries and the fact that having a new one will face major challenges.

I cannot talk for Mi but I heard on another thread that the Caucus in Mi will be a VERY cheap.. Primary like caucus where basically people go in and stand for their candidate... counted and leave. No moving around or trying to convince others or all that other stuff. Stand.. Vote.. Leave. I admit that it will be more prone to tampering in that fashion but we have to think about COST and TIME here.

I feel that the cost and setup time for a primary make it almost an impossibility without some MAJOR twisting that will likely lead to lawsuits all over the place.

If Fl does not like that can they just accept 50/50 and be done with this? Mi wants a cheapo caucus and hopefully they will get it.

[latinolatteliberal]

46. Not so fast, slick.

I think everyone here agrees that a resolution is needed and a quick one is preferred. But let's not use our common desire for party unity and strength to muscle through an unfair solution that rewards not only states that broke the rules but also the most machiavellian candidate.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

51. cheating POS n/t

.

[avrdream]

60. I agree with you but remember that this place is:

pretty much anti-anything-that-may-benefit-Hillary lately so you won't get much support. Try some other boards - the reality check can be quite refreshing.

[mmonk]

63. Shall we put a bow on it?

[dysfunctional press]

64. only if the delegates are evenly split between the two candidates should they be seated.

nt.