If I were a woman, I'd be angry as hell at Hillary Clinton.

[TheWraith]

Whether it's the "everyone's picking on the girl" argument, the wild swings in tone, or the aura of entitlement and "You'll have me or you'll have no one," the Clinton campaign seems to have inadvertantly played into virtually every stereotype about powerful or ambitious women as being either cynical manipulators or incompetants advancing themselves by gaming the system.

Kathleen Sebelius, Jennifer Granholm, Janet Napolitano, Ruth Ann Minner, and Christine Gregoire didn't need to equate criticism of them with sexism, or blame the media for not giving them more good press, or pull out every dirty smear they could direct at their opponent. They ran smart, respectable campaigns, and they won because they were the right people for the job.

Consider the kind of image they project, and the role model they provide, compared to what Hillary Clinton has been doing. Respectable and undeniably qualified, versus power-hungry and the desire to win no matter the consequences. I don't have children, but if I had a daughter, I'd know which role model I'd want her to look up to. And if I were a woman, I'd be angry as hell at Hillary Clinton for damaging the image and reputation of powerful women across the country.

Of course, I'm not a woman. But I am a Democrat. So I'm still angry as hell at Hillary Clinton.

[AGirl]

1. You are not a woman, so don't speak for women.

[Madam Mossfern]

6. I'm a woman

and I pretty much agree with his sentiments.

[AGirl]

12. Well, you can agree with it. I just don't like it when men talk for women.

[JAbuchan08]

70. It's called empathy

Being able to place yourself in the perspective of another person and imagining what you would feel if you were in that position. Certainly he cannot tell you or anyone else what women actually feel, but it is not like women are an entirely different species it IS possible for a man to understand and empathize with women's feelings.

I think that this whole mystic cult of womanhood is just that. I'm never going to be a woman and I'm never going to understand *exactly* how women think any better than I'm going to be able to understand EXACTLY how another man thinks and feels.

My shared gender makes it easier for me to empathize with and relate to men than with women, but...

we're still all human. This idea that ALL men and ALL women have irreconcilable differences and that we are incapable of understanding one another is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. Well one sign of narcissism

is the lack of empathy.

[skater314159]

138. True dat. nt

[skater314159]

137. I'm a genderfuck, so I am BOTH genders...

and I want to thank you for your statement "this idea that ALL men and ALL women have irreconcilable differences and that we are incapable of understanding one another is a self-fulfilling prophecy" is sooo true. I know that there isn't much difference between men and women - and what differences there are, are due to culture and socialization. People often behave the way "their gender is supposed to" because of social pressure and conformity issues.

Thanks for speaking up... I just wish more people here DID know what EMPATHY, SYMPATHY, and RESPECT were - and that they mebbe employed them more often in talking to each other, but mebbe that is too optimistic. Na ja...

[JAbuchan08]

179. I may not be the best person to lecture on respect

I've had my moments of outrage here on DU in the last few months and they were not pretty.
Perhaps I should write a mea-culpa, but I tend to be more of a commenter than an OP writer.

[Dinger]

78. Me Neither (nt)

[skater314159]

136. But you can talk for everyone? And tell people to shut up? Hypocrite.nt

[JoFerret]

36. Gosh! women with different views

Imagine that! How dare women think for themselves. Black people don't. Men don't. Gays don't. Where do women get off?

[skater314159]

140. Damned Liberation! I thought Bush had stomped em all! nt

[noel711]

77. I'm a middle aged woman...like Hillary..

grew up in Chicago, just like Hillary.

Married to a man, just like Hillary.

Work in the city on the east coast, Like Hillary.

HAve advanced degrees, and am in a male-dominated profession,
just like HIllary.

Have a daughter in her 20's, just like Hillary.

I love to wear pansuits, just like Hillary.

I have short blond hair, just like Hillary.

Sometimes I speak my mind, just like Hillary.

BUT... I have too much self-respect, dignity, decorum,
and respect for my community and the world to behave
like a spoiled child, and to revert to dirty tricks when
I don't get my way.

I resent the fact that people want to group me with the
"Hillary Demographic" and have been told: "Shame on you
for not supporting your presidential candidate."

She does not represent me, my life, or my views.
I totally get it guys; It's time to move beyond
categories, and look at the big picture.

What's best for this country is to move on.
Get away from the Old Style Politics, and into
something completely new.

[misanthrope]

89. Did your husband publicly humiliate you...like Hillary?...

....Did you inexplicably keep enabling his long-established behavior by your acquiescence...like Hillary?

Do you proclaim to stand for the underclass while embracing a life of prestige and power...like Hillary?

Did you take advantage of your place in a privileged realm by landing your twenty-something daughter a six figure job fresh out of school...like Hillary?

[noel711]

101. Let's see, MIsanthrope....

My private life... is private.Whatever my husband has done to humiliate me
is between him... his therapist.. and me..

Do I proclaim to stand for the underclass.... I work as pastor in an inner city
church... nuff said!

Embrace a lofe of prestige and power..? REad the above sentence.

Take advantage of my place? My daughter is still in graduate school
amassing huge tuition loans so she can work with autistic kids...

[misanthrope]

102. Please understand...

...I didn't think you would answer in the affirmative to any of my questions. I was merely trying to underscore the differences between yourself (and a great deal of her gender-centric supporters) and Sen. Clinton.

[noel711]

125. That's okay, MIssy...

Just don't want the point to be missed....

[niceypoo]

103. All Republican talking points......like Limbaugh

[misanthrope]

106. Even a blind pig finds an acorn now and again**nm

**

[skater314159]

143. True dat.

There sure are a lot of those turning up these days here...

[skater314159]

142. You are a misanthrope... and possibly misogynist....

... since you think "real women" can only express one view.

I don't really see the point of your post, except you want to discount a valid argument that doesn't fit your preconcieved worldview.

[misanthrope]

197. If I'm misanthropic, wouldn't "misogynist" be kind of redundant?**nm

**

[ClayZ]

112. Well said!

K and R

[skater314159]

141. Thanks for your post... I'd recommend it if I was able!

... but be prepared for the


that it is going to cause - and all because you didn't follow the shame, guilt, emotional blackmail, and manipulation to fall in line.

:yourock:

Keep up the fight Sister!

[roguevalley]

109. me too. it demeans us all when she pulls her skirt over her head

and whinnies like a child.

[Divernan]

128. Poster "A Girl" demeans herself with her childlike name - if she's an adult woman, that is.

"Girl" is that demeaning, albeit passive-agressive term that sexists use toward adult women. I never tolerate it and tell people so. Often I appropriately point out: "Look, I'm old enough to at least be your mother, if not your grandmother; I'm quite comfortable to be the age that I am; I have a lot of valuable experience from the years I've lived; and don't insult me be acting like I will be just so-o-o-o-o-o-o flattered and get all giggly when some younger man, or ANY man refers to me as "girl".

I consider myself a feminist-even taught Womens Studies classes at a university for a couple of years back in the 70's. I'm a now-retired professional with 3 degrees and a couple of professional licences. I agree with all the well stated criticisms of HRC in this thread. Her attempt to out-macho, out-militaristic, out-testosterone men is setting back women's image and is particularly hurtful to present and future women candidates for political office. Hey, Hillary! You don't have to act like a man to get what you want from your life!

Oh, and did I forget to say, G O B A M A !!!

[OzarkDem]

181. Welcome to DU

:eyes:.

[Yael]

11. He speaks for this one!

[Skidmore]

I am a woman and I think she has set women back decades

in the way she has conducted this campaign. For a woman who is supposed to be strong and in charge of her life, she doesn't act like it.

[City Lights]

20. I couldn't agree more!

:toast:

[EFerrari]

34. Agreed. I am and I AM. n/t

[VolcanoJen]

75. This woman agrees with you.

:thumbsup:

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

105. Bill certainly did his part - let's not forget him.

[skater314159]

144. Exactly...

... it's like she has a check-list of all the "traits" bigots use to state their case that women can't be Prez:
is overly emotional - check
has crying jags - check
become vindictive when doesn't get her way - check
sneaky - check
dishonest and misleads men - check
doesn't know when to step down with grace and decorum - check
calls everything against her "sexism" - check

There are more, but I can't think of em right now... I don't wanna start my day with a headache.

I want a woman who doesn't look like a caricature made by Rush as the first female Prez, and Hillary ain't it.

[lligrd]

17. I Thought You Came Out Against Hillary Yesterday

Have you forgiven her McCain backing already?

[AGirl]

22. No

This is not about Hillary, but since you've asked it is a bit hard to adjust...

[lligrd]

27. I Know It Is. I've Had To Do It Several Times.

Hang on, it'll get easier. ;-)

[lligrd]

29. And Don't You Worry, We Will Get A Woman In There Soon

I really hope Obama considers one for VP. I'd love someone like Boxer.

[awaysidetraveler]

86. It will be a fine thing to have a woman in the White House,

and I like your idea of a woman as VP. I don't know about Boxer, though. Who is she?

[PassingFair]

111. Barbara Boxer...Senator from California...Progressive POWERHOUSE!

http://boxer.senate.gov/

[skater314159]

146. OMG! That would be AWESOME - Obama/Boxer.

That would make my wee heart flutter! :loveya:

That would also go a long way to getting leaders who can fix all the rifts and shit that has happened over the past eight years with BushCo and in the past few months of this campaign.

Wonderful idee lligrd! I hope Obama is listening!

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. I'm not Sudanese, but I can object to what's happening in Darfur.

I'm not black, but I can have problems with nooses in Louisiana. I'm not gay, but I can see DOMA as the travesty it is.

Does my not being a woman exclude me from any viewpoint on women's issues?

Isn't that called "playing the gender card"?

[Bluerthanblue]

55. Excellent point- you can, should and DO have a voice- and the right

to make your voice heard.

:hi:

peace~

[skater314159]

147. True dat... and it is the "playing the gender card"... playing anything to win really. nt

[grace0418]

87. He's not speaking for women.

You may not agree with him, but he never claimed to be speaking for you. Or me (though I'm starting to agree with him).

[texshelters]

96. He spoke for himself

"if I were a woman".

Get it?

"If", is a conditional that sets up a hypothetical. Agree, disagree, but

free speech for all!!

Tex

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

104. My wife thinks Hillary is an embarrassment to the Democratic party. I agree.

[skater314159]

135. He can say what he damn well pleases. nt

[ananda]

2. The real issue for me is ..

.. what the next president will do for women.

The last seven years has been so fucking
regressive.

[krkaufman]

110. The real issue for me is ...

... what the next President is going to do for overweight, balding, 43-year-old male loners who spend too much time in pointless Internet forum volleys where no one is really going to sway anyone else from their preset positions.

WHere's the friggin hope?!?! Huh??!!

[skater314159]

148. ...

:rofl:

You made me laugh my wee ass right outta my chair! (Maybe I shouldn't sit in a chair with wheels while reading this forum, eh?)

:rofl:

[krkaufman]

177. Thank you. I'm here every night.

And don't forget to tip the waitstaff.

:toast:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. as a woman i am very very proud of her.

[texshelters]

97. Yea!

Thanks for giving an opinion without name calling. We can all learn from this.

Tex

[XemaSab]

4. I'm a woman

and I totally get what you're saying. :thumbsup:

[melody]

5. I am a woman and I am angry as hell at Hillary Clinton

She's reaching for anything she can, including reasons that have nothing to do with why she's failing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. I'm a woman and I completely agree

I have also been a political junkie pretty much all my life and I can't remember any Democrat running as nasty a campaign as Hillary Clinton is running now.

[progdog]

21. Double Bingo!!

n/t

[Myrina]

8. Bingo!

:applause:

[K Gardner]

9. I'm a woman, and I'm angry as hell that she is TAINTING the waters for any woman who

might want to run in the future. Portraying herself as a victim constantly, screaming sexism constantly, conducting herself in a way that is quite frankly an embarassment to any woman who takes pride in what women can and should be able to do in this world.

She is a disgrace to our gender.

[Yael]

10. That and she appears Bi-Polar on top of it all

Leading to the meme that she isn't in control of her emotions.

She is purposely playing into every stereotype out there and quickly becoming a characture of herself.

[Critters2]

193. Are you a psychiatrist? nt

[GarbagemanLB]

13. I am not a woman, but I like them.

[NJmaverick]

14. I am not a woman, so I wouldn't presume to speak for them

I can't see this thread going very well.

[Huge Ego Sorry]

164. At some point, I have GOT to get that avatar...

:D

[TwilightGardener]

15. I'm a woman, and I wouldn't piss on her if she was on fire and I just left Starbuck's.

[Swamp Rat]

145. You sound like a man!

:D JUST KIDDING!!! :D

:yoiks:

[cliffordu]

156. LOL!!

Nice one, Swamp Rat!!! :smoke:

[skater314159]

149. ...

OMFGYMMLMAO*!
:rofl: :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

*OhmyfukkinGodsyoumademelaughmyassoff!!!

[roseBudd]

16. I am a woman & I am angry, especially when she asserts a state where she was the only name on the

ballot should count to wards her delagates. Who does she think she is? Fidel Castro? Putin? Saddam?

[PetraPooh]

18. I am and I am, been angry quite a while, 'nuff said.

[lligrd]

19. Another Woman Who Agrees With You. K&R nt

[cbayer]

24. I am a woman and I'm not angry with her at all.

And clearly many here do not agree with me. I recognize that and ask that you not attack me for my point of view.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

43. I do not attack but rather applaud your courage

in posting in a firm and polite manner. As you can see from downthread, I agree with with the OP--but I wish all who disagree could do so in the manner you chose.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

25. I'm a woman and I AM angry as hell.

I highly resent the Clintons for coopting feminism for their own ambitions. I am also incredibly disappointed in the prominent feminists (Steinem, Robin Morgan, Erica Jong, et al) who have failed to see through it. It's fine for them to support Hillary themselves, but when they try to shame and guilt trip other women into supporting her out of feminist solidarity, while expecting us to ignore her glaring flaws, they are crossing the line. It's plainly obvious that this is more about their own egos than what is good for the country, and women.

I agree with you about the women leaders in this country. Janet Napolitano is my governor and I have no doubt she would make a formidable presidential candidate. I can't imagine her engaging in any of the embarassing antics that Bill and Hillary have. She sure as shit wouldn't racebait.

[goclark]

37. I agree ~ they don't seem to recall that there are women of other races

So therefore, in their play book, we don't count.

Now THAT is sexist.

We should be a Sisterhood but they attempt to put us on the back of the bus because we are for Obama.

I suppose that Tubbs is in their click but I'm not ~ we'll that is wrong.

This Soul Sister will not be on the back of the bus for Hillary or anybody.

[EFerrari]

48. And that was exactly the problem with second wave feminism --

a lesson Steinem, Jong and company have had many years to learn. They are not stupid people. They are showing us their priorities.

This hermana will not be following their myopic lead.

/ack, spelling

[mrreowwr_kittty]

53. Yeah, it is galling.

I cannot believe that Gloria Steinem was in TX the other day, campaigning for Hillary after the racebaiting crap she's pulled, not to mention the lies about Obama's record on choice. Seeing another affluent white woman ascend to the presidency seems to outweigh her principles.

[skater314159]

150. Amen Sister! Preach on!

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/11/14/Harlem_050929022104565_main_wideweb__300x375,1.jpg

Thanks for taking a stand! I know it ain't easy... but it's the right thing to do!

[Deja Q]

26. As somebody who simply votes,

I think what the candidates say and how they say it is important.

If you ask me, ALL the candidates have had their high points. And their low points.

Nader remains silent, but anybody who thinks he's a real candidate and has a chance of winning even a penny has my sympathy.

[elfin]

28. I am a woman and am angry

at the type of campaign she is running and the way she has tried to manipulate her female status - first by relying on her spouse too much instead of taking charge of HER campaign, then going all "soft" at a strategic moment. riding on her spouse's record instead of her own, becoming "shrill" when desparate.

She is a talented, accomplished person, but she does not have my support.

What really angers me that has nothing to do with her gender is her adoption of Rovian tactics to slice and dice various segments of voting populations (Hispanics, African Amrericans) and play them off against each other to eke out a "victory".

[goclark]

68. Yes! You are so right!

[JoFerret]

30. But you are not

...so please don't weigh in from that perspective. Stick to the issues. Thanks.

(If I were a man I'ld be in love with Barack. - crap. right?)

[EFerrari]

60. Why shouldn't men weigh in on feminist issues?

Are you arguing for a woman's issue ghetto or what?

The Clinton campaign has MADE this an issue and as usual, they did it badly.

The OP carefully did not speak for women.

[JoFerret]

84. All Obama supporters should be feminists, all men should be

I would hope all democrats and Obama supporters are feminists.

Weighing in AS a woman is different. Women can think for themselves.
All people should support the notion that women are capable of independent thought; deserving of equal opportunity and rights; and should be free of being sexually objectified.

[xmas74]

31. You're not a woman

so why speak for us?

I'm a woman and I'm raising a child who will someday be a woman. I'm proud of Clinton-proud enough to point her out to my daughter and tell her that someday that could be her (running for the presidency).

I'm glad that I've supported Clinton and have vocally done so in front of my daughter. In the US we have come a long way in race relations. My daughter, the product of a public school education, can name any number of African-American and Latino men and tell you what they are known for. The schools have done a fantastic job of teaching Black History Month and have a nice Hispanic history program. The only problem is that my daughter cannot name a single woman unless she's a celebrity. Ask her who Betsy Ross is? No idea. Abagail Adams? Nope. Susan B. Anthony? She has a coin with her on it but doesn't know what she did. Belva Ann Lockwood? Maria Mitchell? Sally Ride? Nothing.

She's in second grade and she doesn't understand that women can also do incredible things, that women can make history. I thank God for women like Hillary, showing an entire generation of women and women-to-be that they can do whatever they set out to accomplish. It's not a lesson that I can leave up to the media or the public schools-I have to teach her myself.

As to the list of women above-she is now reading a short biography about Maria Mitchell and wants to talk about her when she goes back to school.

[Divernan]

131. In the long run Clinton is hurting all women, including your daughter

Please think about the points made by the other female posters here as to how professional, accomplished women believe HRC is hurting the image of women. I have two adult daughters - each a successful professional, one with 2 degrees, the other with 3 degrees. I have a lot of female cousins and friends who are professionals. They have contempt for Clinton and the games she plays, and particularly for her tolerating and enabling her husband's promiscuous behavior. As one daughter pointed out to me, HRC is nothing but a beard for Bill. She traded her self respect for social position, secondary power, and the chance to run on his record. And she had no need to do that. With a Yale law degree she could have made an outstanding professional career all on her own. And what a crappy example of marriage she has provided to her daughter.

I know it's really hard to give up on her. I defended her and her husband for over 15 years now. (I was a guest at Bill's first inauguration.) But no more.

[xmas74]

176. She's not hurting my daughter and never has.

What hurts my daughter are the messages she sees on the news and on the paper stands every day. When she comes home from school and says that women are not "good enough" to be president, that hurts. When she's asked why she always says it's because "Hillary is bad."

She has done nothing wrong, yet is the most hated person on this board. Truthfully, I don't care one whit about your female cousins and friends who are professionals. I know too many "professional women" who have nothing but contempt for her and all Dems in general. Those are the same women who will cast their vote for McCain this fall.

A degree doesn't make a woman a Dem. If that were the case how can you explain the women attorneys and doctors in my area, all whom are members of the local Republican party? Most of the contempt I've heard toward HRC has been from so-called "professional women". Guess what? Most of those women do NOT have my best interests at heart, nor do they give a damn about a little girl in the Midwest.

[Divernan]

183. You made my point!

Your daughter is getting input/feedback of people's negative feelings for Hillary. She hears people saying they don't want Hillary for president because of what they consider "bad" behavior of Hillary's. Your daughter interprets that as Hillary would be a "bad" president, and then your daughter makes the connection that if Hillary would be a bad president, and Hillary is a woman, that ergo propter, ALL women are not good enough to be president.

Consider this, please, for your daughter's sake. What if you had a son who came home upset because he heard all the criticisms of George Bush and that Bush was a bad president, and your son then came to the conclusion that "men are not good enough to be president"? What if, god forbid, Hillary was elected president, and made decisions which provoked great criticism - like, for instance, ordering cluster bombs dropped on civilian areas? As a well informed Clinton supporter, you should be aware that she voted against banning these vicious weapons which have maimed and killed hundreds of children in Lebanon alone. You know, little girls just like yours, with their hands blown off, or their legs or arms, or eyes blinded or ears deafened. You know - cluster bombs - the weapon Princess Diana worked so hard to get banned? Maybe that's OK with you that she voted to keep those bombs in US arsenals - because she had to keep her pro-Israel donors happy, and that's one of Israel's favorite weapons against non-Jewish children. Did you know a lot of the kids in Lebanon are Christian?

Our children repeatedly hear and see people of each gender make serious errors, get arrested, jailed, ridiculed in the press. If you accept your daughter's reaction re criticism of Hillary, how long before she reads a story of some mentally ill mother killing or abusing a child and concludes that women can't be good mothers. Or a woman banker is indicted for embezzling, so women can't be bankers. The list of possibilities is endless.

OF COURSE, you would immediately explain to a son that George Bush was only ONE man, and that just because people don't like what ONE MAN does, that therefore the same people don't like ANY man.
You would tell your son that it is sexist to condemn a whole gender for the actions of one of them, and that reasonable, thinking people judge other people on the basis of an individual's actions, not their gender.

What the vast majority of women on this thread have agreed upon is that Hillary's actions undercut all women in that Hillary's actions give amunition to the sexists who will try to generalize her extreme and erratic and selfish political behavior to any and all women.

Are you teaching your daughter that her primary goal in life is to marry a man who can provide her with status and prestige, and to stay in that marriage regardless of how often he cheats on her and humiliates her? Or are you teaching your daughter that women can achieve a meaningful life and take care of themselves on their own? The majority of women will be on their own at some point in their adult lives - whether never married, divorced or widowed. To keep my daughters focused on their educations, I told them that. I also said I hoped that they would find a great guy, and have someone to share their life with, and the odds of that happening were much better if a woman is quite capable of taking care of herself and her husband/significant other knows that the woman is staying with him because she wants to and loves him - and not because she is depending on him to take care of her as if she is an adult child, and/or is afraid to be on her own.

And finally, all of my kids, daughters and son, and my professional relatives and friends are all Democrats. So are my two women doctors, and I'm working on my dentist. I accept that you don't care one whit about my female relatives and friends. That's OK - they're all grown up and taking very good care of themselves.

But I DO care about your little girl (and all little girls). I've got a long list of things I should be doing with my time right now, instead of answering you. I'm doing it because I know you love your daughter very much, and I hope to convince you to handle the situation which this election presents to you in a way that does not result in your daughter feeling bad about it. You know it will stay like this throughout the primary and the general election, and that's a long time for a child to feel bad. I don't envy you having to explain the world to a child right now.

If you choose to continue to support HRC and you want your daughter to have political awareness, that's fine. I took my kids to McGovern rallies decades ago, and that encouraged political activeness in them. But please explain to her that Hillary, like all political candidates, gets criticized. You can tell her you don't believe what is said about Hillary, or that you base your vote on something other than the issues criticized - but that some people (maybe even you) hate George Bush for his political actions, but that doesn't mean that you hate all men. And that people who think Hillary is "bad", whatever that means to your daughter, do not think all women are bad. In fact, you can repeat what you have read on DU - Obama's supporters, men and women, do not object to a woman president - just this particular woman.

[xmas74]

Oh sweetie,

you'll never change my mind.

And no, you did not prove my point. Sorry, but that won't happen. (As to Bush-that wouldn't happen in my town. I live in a military town. Sorry but he still has more support than you'll ever guess. Oh, and Huckabee won the primary for my county.)


My family and friends all voted for her en masse in February. My brother, my sister in law, my best friend and every member of her family have already stated that if she does not win the primary they'll vote for the Green candidate in November. My cousin, who campaigned for Obama in his senatorial campaign did not vote for him and has stated that if he wins the nom she will be looking for "another party".

I don't like Obama. He does not stand for me. For the longest time I thought it was something wrong with me until a close friend put her finger on it. She quoted him over and over, showing how often the "race card" was thrown out. She said that she was disgusted that he did such a thing and she was truly offended that Michelle referred to African-Americans as "triflin'". It took a 50 year old African-American woman to put her finger on what was wrong with Obama's campaign.


And we don't hate in our home. That is never allowed. When it comes to a man like Bush we pray for him to find a way to listen for the right answers. She knows that some people are confused and that some people prefer not to listen for the answers (like our president) but that the answers are there.

And it's time for me to stop. Yes, I'm a Hillary supporter. I feel she represented women on a grand scale and I also respect her for how she has represented members of our faith. (We're both Methodists.) She's the candidate for me.

[LWolf]

32. I'm a woman.

I'm angry at the voters in my own party for denying me the chance to vote for a decent candidate in both May and November.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

46. If you're talking Kucinich,

I agree with you totally. In fact, since he's dropped out, I've been sending money to his Congressional campaign--glad he won the primary. And I'll continue to support progressive candidates down ticket. I see that as the way to change things within the party so that next time we can truly have the chance to vote in real change.

[LWolf]

85. Dennis Kucinich

is obviously light years ahead of anyone else we were offered. I would have compromised for several of the others that dropped out early, as well.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

93. Me too

the cream of the crop was thrown out, as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps in an alternative reality, like they talk about on science fiction, Kucinich is President, we aren't on the brink of total economic and environmental collapse. It's times like these I wish sci fi was true.

[skater314159]

151. He was TOO different...

... that's why he didn't get far.

My dream ticket was Kucinich/Gravel... but I knew that wouldn't happen in this universe. (But I still dream!)

I also hoped that Edwards would get further - becuase I think his views on poverty and the economy are something we need right now in this country.

Hopefully, Obama will give people with views like those I just listed a prominent place in his cabinet after he is sworn in in Jan 2009!

[LWolf]

160. I would say it a little differently.

Not that he was too different, but that he offered true, authentic difference.

I don't think even Democrats want true, authentic difference, which is why the rapturous "change" and "hope" themes around candidates who don't offer significant difference repulses me.

[defendandprotect]

33. I would have liked to have seen in this case a woman on the right track, win or lose---

Personally, I do think that females will make superior candidates --- we just have to
support the right ones.

HRC is a wrong one ---

And now that I've found out a little bit about Kathleeen Sebelius ---
I guess I have to find out something about Jennifer Granholm, Janet Napolitano, Ruth Ann Minner,
and Christine Gregoire -- !!

I'm not watching enough C-Span II anymore . . . have to view it on internet ---
but these are Governors of Kansas --- Michigan, Arizona, Delaware and Washington ---

[Bluerthanblue]

35. I am a woman, and I am very angry at the way

she uses 'sexism' when it is to her benefit. And I am furious at people here on DU who see sexism in every criticism of her, and then turn around and behave in sexist ways to others.

I am frustrated that Hillary seems to feel she needs to deny the feminine aspects of who she is, in order to 'succeed'. When she does this, I feel she has abandoned those of us women, who don't want or need to compromise or deny our authentic differences- and is selling both herself AND the rest of us out- for what? For the 'good of women everywhere?" or for her own selfish desire to WIN at ANY cost.

I cannot fault her for her desire- But I can and will register my disapproval and anger at the fact that she is willing to hurt others in pursuit of that desire.

peace~

[City Lights]

59. HRC's supporters here have diluted and cheapened the meaning of sexism

by overplaying the card. :-(

[skater314159]

152. The way they throw it around cheapens a SERIOUS subject...

and makes it their own political trump card.

I am also fucking sick of how many people on this board don't seem to get that sexism cuts both ways - it can be against a man or anyone of alternative gender/sexual identity. I hate when people try to use serious social issues to further their own ends - especially when it's do defend someone who is losing but doesn't want to admit her ship is going down.

HRC has set back gender and social relaitons in this country almost as much as * has ... and she has accomplished it in one political campaign season while it took chimp-o and his minions eight years.

Disgusting.

[Catherina]

38. I'm a woman and I'm as angry as hell at Hillary Clinton

Women in my workplace are laughing at her and backing Obama. Her deceit and manipulative tactics are personally insulting to working women and contrary to what Hillary's supporters think, we're not going to embrace sexism to fight it.

Here's an excerpt of something a friend of mine wrote a few weeks ago

Hillary faces a lot of obstacles through sexism, no doubt. But there are moments where she benefits as well. There are moments where she has the luxury to portray herself as the victim to garner sympathy from voters and the media. There are moments where she can, as Melissa Harris-Lacewell (a black woman, professor) notes, slip in and out of her “Scarlett O’Hara” routine. It’s a prime example of how mainstream media discusses gender bias without recognizing the white privilege that often comes with it.

You want to talk about double standards? Obama has run his campaign under the interrogation of white approval ever since he made that speech at the DNC in 2004. He knows he can’t do or say certain things because he can’t afford to make white folk uncomfortable, especially when running against a white woman.

Trust me, we all know the routine. Smile . . . show your teeth . . . get that base out of your voice . . . don’t look them straight in the eye . . . don’t show emotion . . . make them comfortable and they might call you one of “those good black people,” and throw you a few crumbs.

Once again, I know that we have to fight sexism as vigorously as we fight racism. And we should be doing a better job at it.

But I also know that there are many “oppressed” white women who would never trade places with my black a*s. That same “oppressed” white woman has been quick to clutch her purse and call the cops when she sees me in her neighborhood after 8:00pm. Hillary reminds me of one of those types of people.

All I'm saying is that it's more complicated than the media would like to suggest.

So to the media: Fine, point out the double standards. But don’t make excuses for Hillary’s poor and divisive behavior. And don’t pretend like Obama doesn’t walk a tight rope everyday as well.

Obama caught hell just for saying, “you’re likeable, enough” because people didn’t like the tone of his voice. He caught hell for the “snub” because he happened to be talking to someone else when she came by. I swear, I almost fell out of my chair late last week when I heard a pundit criticize Obama for WRITING ON HIS NOTEPAD while Hillary spoke at the debate. I guess he was being disrespectful because he wasn’t looking at her when she talked. Give me a break!

I can’t make this any clearer. Obama has to RUN AWAY from issues of race for fear of being labled the “black candidate.” It’s the only way he can win. Yet, Hillary gets to embrace “girl power” in ways Obama could NEVER embrace “black power.” Now you’ve got Tina Fey saying “Bi*ch is the new black.” WTF does that mean?

Some see Hillary as a victim. But some of us also know what discrimination is. And for a lot of us, we see Hillary as a grown a*s woman who knows exactly what she’s doing. She conveniently plays off of gender oppression and white privelege every chance she gets.

Some of us don’t see her as a victim, and never have. What we see is a privileged person who thought the white house was her entitlement. And she can’t stand the fact that this uppity negroe didn’t wait his turn in line.

But the media keeps falling for her BS. The narrative remains the same . . . everything goes back to “POOR HILLARY”

http://jackandjillpolitics.blogspot.com/2008/02/hillary-is-trying-to-sabotage-obama-in.html

[misanthrope]

92. BUH-RILLIANT!...

..."But I also know that there are many 'oppressed' white women who would never trade places with my black a*s. That same 'oppressed' white woman has been quick to clutch her purse and call the cops when she sees me in her neighborhood after 8:00 p.m."

SPOT ON!

[skater314159]

153. Too true dat. nt

[Kaylee]

187. If only I could recommend your friend's post.

As a black woman, Hillary's sense of entitlement drives me insane. Obama has worked his tail off in every state (states she deemed unimportant), is winning in every sense of the word and STILL she cries foul that she is not the presumptive nominee.

As you and your friend so eloquently put it, Hillary can scream from the rooftops "VOTE FOR ME BECAUSE I'M A WOMAN!". Meanwhile, Barack is working just as hard to make everyone forget he's Black.

[truedelphi]

39. Barb Boxer, Lynn Woolsey, Maxine Waters

Barbara Lee etc don't pull out the whimpering over sexism either.

[Catherina]

44. Hillary's Scarlett O'Hara Act - Why some of us aren't falling for it.

Hillary's Scarlett O'Hara Act

By Melissa Harris-Lacewell | TheRoot.com

Why some of us aren't falling for it.




Feb. 8, 2008--There's been a lot of talk about women and their choices since Super Tuesday, when African American women overwhelmingly voted for Sen. Barack Obama, while white women picked Sen. Hillary Clinton. Some pundits automatically concluded that "race trumped gender" among black women. I hate this analysis because it relegates black women to junior-partner status in political struggles. It is not that simple. A lot of people have tried to gently explain the divide, so I'm just going to put this out there: Sister voters have a beef with white women like Clinton that is both racial and gendered. It is not about choosing race; it is about rejecting Hillary's Scarlett O'Hara act.

Black women voters are rejecting Hillary Clinton because her ascendance is not a liberating symbol. Her tears are not moving. Her voice does not resonate. Throughout history, privileged white women, attached at the hip to their husband's power and influence, have been complicit in black women's oppression. Many African American women are simply refusing to play Mammy to Hillary.

The loyal Mammy figure, who toiled in the homes of white people, nursing their babies and cleaning and cooking their food, is the most enduring and dishonest representation of black women. She is a uniquely American icon who first emerged as our young country was trying to put itself back together after the Civil War. The romanticism about this period is a bizarre historical anomaly that underscores America's deep racism: The defeated traitors of the Confederacy have been allowed to reinterpret the war's battles, fly the flag of secession over state houses, and raise monuments to those who fought to tear down the country. Southern white secessionists were given the power to rewrite history even as America's newest citizens were relegated to forced agricultural peonage, grinding urban poverty and new forms segregation and racial terror.

Mammy was a central figure in this mythmaking and she was perfect for the role. The Mammy myth allowed Americans in the North and South to ignore the brutality of slavery by claiming that black women were tied to white families through genuine bonds of affection. Mammy justified past enslavement and continuing oppression.

Privileged, Southern white women were central in creating and propagating the Mammy myth. In 1923, the United Daughters of the Confederacy were nearly successful in lobbying Congress to erect a statue on federal land to honor "the memory of the faithful colored mammies of the South." The desire to memorialize Mammy reveals how Southern white women reveled in the subordinate role of their darker peers. These black women were vulnerable to the sexual and labor exploitation of slaveholders and household employers. These women masked their true thoughts and personalities in order to gain a modicum of security for themselves and their families. The Mammy monument was meant to display black women as the faithful, feisty, loyal servants of white domesticity.

...


Melissa Harris-Lacewell is is associate professor of politics and African American studies at Princeton University.

http://www.theroot.com/id/44696


It doesn't matter how much she sobs or how many moues she makes, we're not playing Mammy to Hillary.

[EFerrari]

52. My metaphor was Evita but this works even better. n/t

[Catherina]

113. Evita's good too

Did you post that anywhere I can read?

[misanthrope]

99. As a lifelong resident of the Deep South...

...and a current resident of one of the most gothic of Southern towns, I recognize these archetypes. This place was a center for the cotton and slave trade where pillared mansions still flank the central thoroughfares, some with confederate flags flapping from porches. The city's teenaged females aspire to a corps of young ambassadors who dress in hoop skirts and full antebellum regalia to represent us.

Scarlett O' Hara Syndrome infects women here still. They feel there is something romantic and amusing about the character. I despise her.

In a college sociology class, this loomed one day. Our professor, who fancied herself a feminist, brought up O' Hara in discussion and I disgustingly commented that the character was "a bitch." The instructor looked around the room and said, "See, if a woman is powerful or ambitious she's called a 'bitch,'" as she laughed to herself.

"No," I interjected, "She's a 'bitch' because she was manipulative, emotionally dishonest, used anyone she came into contact with and cared about no one but herself. If she was a man, I would call her a 'bastard.' She soaked up her life from the sweat of others."

I would much prefer young women look to Barbara Jordan for inspiration and relegate O' Hara to the hall of villains.

[Catherina]

116. With Hillary banking on that, it shows how out of touch she is

I had the same reaction to Scarlett O'Hara the first time I saw the movie. I couldn't understand what was so heroic about a woman who was oblivious to anything outside of her fantasies and couldn't get that the world wasn't designed for her own selfish pleasure and was changing around her.

I think we still have too many Scarletts - whining, conniving women willing to walk all over our victims and sacrifice the greater good of society for their own selfish purposes but they tend to be older women. Most of the young women I know don't think like that anymore.

I'd be so proud to see a woman President but there's no joy in the likes of Maggie Thatcher, Madeleine Albright, Condi Rice or Hillary Clinton. All they prove is that women can be as vicious of men - something Lucretia Borgia proved a long time ago - so where's the glory in supporting a woman who won't go down in history as a role model for future generations? The day we have a woman President, I'd like my daughter to be able to look up to her and for history books to say "Now that was a leader who represented the best".

Is your moniker for the word, the band or the play? Either way, I like it.

[misanthrope]

124. My moniker...

...is due to my supreme frustration with the majority of my species. I think things could be a whole lot better than they are but too many of us are too selfish and myopic to make it so. We have the capacity, we just don't use it.

I still think one of the worst things that ever happened to the Deep South was the penning of Margaret Mitchell's novel and how it won a Pulitzer, I'll never know.

[skater314159]

157. I think it won a Pulitzer because

those were racist times, and she wrote a novel that allowed for the continued romanticization of race and gender relations of the "Ante-Bellum Glory Days"... which is sickening since it was also a time of lynchings, forced segregation, Jim Crow laws, chain gangs and forced labour, laws against inter-racial marriage, and other crimes against humanity.

The whole mythos of Gone with the Wind just needs to be relegated to history like "little Black Sambo" and other racist literature of the American Past.

[skater314159]

155. Amen! Barbara Jordan was a pioneer and amazing woman.

I agree that more people need to look to her for true inspiration.

I also agree with you about the "bitch" comment to refer to Scarlet O'Hara. I had to read "Gone with the Wind" and it sickened me ... I can't believe anyone would promote O'Hara as a role model - I mean she profitted from SLAVE LABOUR! Is that something modern feminists support? Jeeeezus! I think I'd have lost it to hear someone supporting such a story of glamourizing racism and slavery - esp. in the name of progressive ideals!!! (and as a side-bar, the character who played Mammy couldn't even go to the theater to get her award, as she was Black and it was in the racist, segregated South... something I'm sure your teacher ignored.)

Thanks for the great post.

[skater314159]

154. Amazing post with great point!

Thanks for sharing that... it is so spot on!

I have wanted to make the same point since CNN ran that damned front-web-page story right before Super Tuesday that essentially said Black (and other minority) women are too stupid to know if they should vote for Obama cause he's black like them or for Hillary cause she is a woman like them.

As one commenter to the site said "OHhhhhh Lawdy! I'se dunno what way to vote! I'se gotsa ta have my massa tell me or I'se jes might stay home! Lawdy! I'se just a poor, dumb, black wimmin!" best summed up the CNN article.

I am just so sick and fucking tired of this crap, and I can't wait for Obama to get the nomination already.

[yourguide]

40. I am a woman.

And I am angry as hell at her.

I am a democrat, and I am angry as hell at her.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

41. I'm a woman

and Clinton's actions bother me a great deal. I get a bit ticked off when some automatically assume I will be for a female candidate because of gender. I am more interested in their stands on the issues and the content of their character. There have been many women for whom I'd have been proud to cast a vote for , starting with Margaret Chase Smith (my mother's hero), Shirley Chisolm, and Barbara Jordan. In this election, Dennis Kucinich was the only candidate whose values and courage inspired me.

I will vote for the eventual nominee, but with sadness. We could have had so much better than either of the front runners, I think.

[cbayer]

49. And you are also firm and fair.

Thanks for the pat on the back upstream.

[EFerrari]

42. Nagging, using tears, claiming credit for her HUSBAND'S work.

She's acted out every cr@ppy sexist stereotype of women's behavior that I never wanted to see in a public figure.

Go away, Hillary. I have three nieces that need a good role model and you aren't HER.

[Hepburn]

51. Woot!

:applause:

[tammywammy]

65. That's how I feel sfexpat

Well, except I have nephews not nieces.

I'm very disappointed in Hillary Clinton.

[EFerrari]

66. I am, too. Whether I agree with her policy positions or not,

at least I could have been happy that a successful woman was running a good campaign.

She's killed that hope altogether.

[Catherina]

71. Hillary relies on charges of sexism while waving a marriage certificate

Hillary relies on charges of sexism to silence her critics while waving around a marriage certificate instead of a resume.
She's an embarrassment to women and no way will I allow my daughter to look up to someone like that because Hillary has no moral integrity.


What Women See When They See Hillary
Lakshmi Chaudhry


"I love Hillary Clinton so completely that, honestly, she would have to burn down the White House before I would say anything bad about her!" exclaimed Nora Ephron in a 1993 Newsday interview. Three years later, she told the Wellesley class of 1996, "Understand: Every attack on Hillary Clinton for not knowing her place is an attack on you." Come late 2006, however, Ephron was the one on the attack as one of the self-described "Hillary resisters"--those who believe that "she will do anything to win, who believe she doesn't really take a position unless it's completely safe," as she wrote on her Huffington Post blog, "who believe she has taken the concept of triangulation and pushed it to a geometric level never achieved by anyone including her own husband, who can't stand her position on the war, who don't trust her as far as you can spit."

This rather dramatic change of heart encapsulates one of the great ironies of Hillary Clinton's bid for the presidency. Many of the very same feminists who were her most ardent supporters as First Lady are now fiercely opposed to her historic bid to become the first female President of the United States. The woman once described by Susan Faludi as a symbol of "the joy of female independence" now evokes ambivalence, disdain and, sometimes, outright vitriol. The right wing's favorite "femi-nazi" now has to contend with an LA Weekly description of her as "a ventriloquist for the patriarchy with a skirt and a vagina."

...

Let's be clear: Hillary has a "feminist problem," and more so with those who lean left.

...

At first glance, the fault line dividing feminists in their view of Hillary Clinton is merely a matter of ideology. On one side are the mainstream moderate women's organizations such as NOW and EMILY's List, facing off against more radical progressive feminists, especially those opposed to the Iraq War. Some of her supporters claim that much of the anger is inspired by her now-infamous 2002 Congressional vote. "It's about this one vote, which was not to invade Iraq but to authorize the President to wage war. I can't understand how this can be held up against a lifetime of important political work," says NOW president Kim Gandy.

...

"Having a woman in the White House won't necessarily do a damn thing for progressive feminism," writes Bitch magazine founder Lisa Jervis in LiP magazine. "Though the dearth of women in electoral politics is so dire as to make supporting a woman--any woman--an attractive proposition, even if it's just so she can serve as a role model for others who'll do the job better eventually, it's ultimately a trap. Women who do nothing to enact feminist policies will be elected and backlash will flourish. I can hear the refrain now: 'They've finally gotten a woman in the White House, so why are feminists still whining about equal pay?'"

Jervis's views were echoed by her peers on the blog Feministing, where Jen Moseley wrote, "As women sign up to work with anyone but Senator Clinton, of course, they're being asked why. That's the bad news. The good news is they're all giving the same answer. Being a woman does not get you the automatic support of women. There's no vagina litmus test, people."

...

More: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070702/chaudhry

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070702/chaudhry

[EFerrari]

74. Nora is right. There is nothing "radical" about expecting

someone who claims to support feminism to behave like a responsible adult and not like a manipulative child.

[misanthrope]

100. Well, that aside, Nora's romantic-comedy work...

...seems to embrace gender stereotypes a good bit, too.

[EFerrari]

120. No. She uses them to undermine the whole idea. n/t

[nonconformist]

45. I'm a woman, and I COMPLETELY DISAGREE. nt

[Hepburn]

47. I am a woman and I absolutely detest Hillary Clinton.

She is a sham as far as being what independent and strong is all about. I wish to hell she ouwld stop all this sexist bullshit.

[Medusa]

50. It's what I've been saying from Day 1

I've made my career ON MY OWN, without having an influential husband to promote me and put me on boards I otherwise would not have been qualified to serve on. The fact that any woman who proclaims herself a "feminist" would even be willing to accept such a thing is disgusting to me. "35 years of experience". Let's see, served less than one year with the Children's Defense Fund. Married Bill, went to work as a corporate lawyer where she aided and abetted corporate criminals like Wal-Mart. Sorry that's "experience" I don't want.

And you know what else? Not once, in my nearly 25 year long career have I ever cried on the job nor have I ever claimed "sexism" either as an excuse when my projects didn't turn out as I'd planned or something happened that I didn't expect to happen. I didn't turn into a weepy, weak little woman who complained she wasn't "treated fairly". This is the REAL world. Is she going to try and pull that shit with a foreign head of state when negotiations don't go her way?

It's stupid. As stupid as the "you have to vote for her because she's a woman" crap. I support other women-but I want women who have gotten where they got on their own. Sure sexism exists, I won't say it doesn't, but whining and bitching and crying about it doesn't make anything change. It just alienates people further. Perhaps that's why she has to resort to these kinds of tactics--she doesn't know how to do things on her own. Well Hillary guess what-some of us didn't have the advantages you had, wealthy parents, an expensive Ivy League education, and "connections". We made our way in this world and never once coasted on someone else's laurels or whined that we weren't treated fairly. Life isn't fair. Get over it already.

[Divernan]

129. Absolute agreed. She had to know Bill was a sex addict before she even married him.

And if not then, or if she thought that marriage would change him, she should have kicked him out on his ass the first time he screwed around. Instead she's spent a life time enabling him for the perks that came with being his wife. Basically, she's been Bill's beard. What a lousy example she set for her daughter. With her Yale law degree, she could have had a very high level legal career, made an extremely comfortable living for herself, and run for office on her own accomplishements. Playing the "wife" card to get ahead makes her the total anti-feminist.

[ProSense]

54. .

[skater314159]

158. K&R

:kick:

[canadian_is_cold]

56. I am a woman, I can't stand Hillary. n/t

[Mme. Defarge]

57. Merci, mon brave!

I am about ready to try to delicately tell my sister-in-law that her candidate is unworthy of her.

[Nine]

58. Yawn. What is the point of this?

I'm a woman and I'm proud of her. The ones on DU who already hate her are naturally going to flock to this thread to say, "me too! me too!" but you're not changing anyone else's mind.

The sexism against Hillary is real. Why do you think we see posts criticizing her looks? Why do you think the right wing hates her even more than Bill? Why is she called shrill when you never see male politicians called that? You can say people don't hate her because she's a woman, but I frankly don't believe it. There's not a doubt in my mind there'd be much less vitriol against her. People see her as ambitious, which is judged much more harshly in women.

For that matter, what is your statement about the campaign playing "virtually every stereotype about powerful or ambitious women as being either cynical manipulators or incompetants advancing themselves by gaming the system" all about? Am I really expected to believe you're just concerned about Hillary setting back the women's movement. Please.

[Hepburn]

61. You are female and proud of it?

Your profile on the DU states, "Gender, Undeclared."

:eyes:

[Nine]

67. So?

I'm not proud of being a woman bc I didn't bother to check a box? Dumbest criticism ever. Or is it that you think I'm not a woman? That's not really that exclusive a club, you know. You must be desperate to pick fights with people if this is how inane your posts are.

[skater314159]

161. No. Are you ashamed of your gender? Why not check the box? nt

[Divernan]

132. A very valid point, Hepburn!

"Gender undeclared" to me indicates a woman who believes her posts will be taken more seriuosly if people don't know she's a woman. She needs a big cuppa self respect.
R E S P E C T!
Find out what it means to me!

[skater314159]

162. Yep.

[skater314159]

159. Most "gender, undeclared"s are women

who don't want to state it.

Mebbe they should embrace their gender and be proud of it (instead of hiding it or being in the closet) before they talk trash...

I think it's ironic they feel ashamed to be identified as women, but then try to use the "gender" and "sexism" cards.

I'm an out, loud, and proud genderfuck, and I tend to feel pity for those who feel ashamed of their identity, as it must suck to have such inner turmoil while playing the "victim card" repeatedly.

[EFerrari]

63. Whether you believe it or not, Clinton has been her usual destructive self

with respect to the women's movement. Your belief is not needed to verify reality.

Of course, sexism is real. What's disconcerting is to see her playing into regressive stereotypes just as much as the corporate media is.

(And, of course, no one ever has criticized Obama's looks, his manner, his speech on camera or his partnership.)

[Catherina]

118. You can either deal with the facts and reality presented to you

in this thread or you can keep clutching to a fantasy world that women are supposed to overlook her calculated pandering because she's a woman. Her looks are fair game. Did you jump into threads criticizing Bush looks? Or do you just defend "poor Hillary"? What's with your maternal instinct to defend her against the right wing's hate? Did you defend McKinney just as vigorously, or is it just poor Hillary because she cried? Did you complain when people called Kucinich shrill or is it just poor Hillary again? I don't care if she's ambitious, that's a plus. But I care that for her ambition is stronger than morality or integrity.

Do you take pride in the coffins of US soldiers shipped home in secrecy? There's an invoice on each of those coffins and Hillary is one of the addressees. Are you proud? Proud of her vote to drop cluster bombs on the children of other women in civilian areas?

Please.

[angie_love]

62. I'm a woman and am disgusted with Hillary's "woe is me" act while simultaneously stabbing Barack in

the back.

[AtomicKitten]

64. I am -- and I am.

:mad:

[Emillereid]

69. I am a woman and I'm mad as hell at Hillary! She's a traitor to the party.

[BooScout]

72. I just love it when a man tells me how I should think....

It's so nice to have someone, particularily a man tell me how as a woman I should behave. Thank you ever so much.:eyes:

[EFerrari]

73. But he didn't. n/t

[skater314159]

163. Hillbot. nt

[BlackVelvet04]

76. Actually you have no idea how you would feel if you were a woman.....

to say otherwise is silly.

[williesgirl]

79. I'm a woman and a feminist. I despite her for her endorsement of McSame and overall behavior of

late. It's more of Bush's - my way or the highway bullshit. If she can't be President in 08, she wants McSame in there to give her a better chance in 12. I no longer feel she should be a Senator. Rec'd

[Cha]

80. hilary's only destroying herself and the dlc..

She's the postergirl for what not to be in a woman.

[rodeodance]

83. "She's the postergirl what not to be in woman."SHAME ON YOU FOR SAYING THAT!!

[skater314159]

165. No shame in SPEAKING THE TRUTH. nt

[rodeodance]

82. "Of course, I'm not a woman."---says it all--go talk to the boys!! .-- I am not angry

[skater314159]

166. You sound angry, emotional and irrational - no wonder you identify so strongly with Hilly. nt

[Critters2]

194. Yep. Angry, emotional, and irrational. Must be a woman.

I really thought we'd evolved beyond that kind of thinking. I was wrong.

[goldcanyonaz]

88. And, if I were a man I could piss in a beer bottle.

[skater314159]

167. Your point being? nt

[Critters2]

195. LOL!!! nt

[Why Syzygy]

90. Exactly. Her whining does NOTHING to advance the interests of women.

Quite the contrary. She practices the most evil kind of sexism.

My thought exactly.

[Jillian]

91. If I were a man, I sure wouldn't want to be you.

[skater314159]

168. I hope if you were a man you could be yourself... but are you even doing that as a woman? nt

[seabeyond]

94. exactly. i think from wed evening all thru thurs mass supporters yelling sexist, chauvenist, ect on

so many thrilled. it did make me really angry. all of it was uncalled for and i call sexism as fast as anyone. there is some point. i have seen media focus on her in certain way for her gender that they would never do to a man, so why her, but that she is a woman. and i stood up with her and spoke out. BUT i cannot believe since coming into this room monday and listening to her suporters how much it is being used. it is appalling. there is a real issue in this nation and it is escalating. people already to dont want to hear it and it is hard enough to show there are problems. this just totally is going to give excuses for cop outs on addressing a very real issue.

[texshelters]

95. Vote Napolitano

She deals with attacks from virulent racists and sexists (most Republicans) in a red state and out smarts them all while looking respectful when disagreeing. It can be done.

Tex

[Autumn]

98. I'm a woman

and I'm quite proud of Hillary.

[CitizenLeft]

107. I am a woman, but I'm not exactly angry.

I'm disappointed, disgusted, and disillusioned with her ugly cutthroat behavior, and she pushed me towards Obama with every dirty trick and distortion and false statement. If I'm upset about anything, it's her forcing me to choose between them - I liked my place on the fence, where I could cheer them both on to a united ticket. She destroyed that dream forever.

Barbara Boxer would be an excellent choice, except for one thing - she has cried on camera, for an admirable cause (contesting the '04 election) and that might hurt her in this kind of toxic atmosphere. Too bad. She's a woman I'm immensely proud of and would love to see her on a ticket.

[rodeodance]

108. hoho-----she has so mmmmmmuch power--that she puuuuush you!!

[skater314159]

169. Your drivel doesn't help the image of women either. nt

[CitizenLeft]

117. I'm sorry, I don't know what you said, you're on "ignore"

If you said something nice, neutral, or mildly argumentative, I sincerely apologize for not seeing your comment.

If you said something insulting - which I suspect, otherwise you wouldn't be on ignore - bite me.

[skater314159]

170. ...

:rofl:

Best response I've seen in a looooong time!

Thanks!
:rofl:

[Kaylee]

190. LOL! Classic.

[Eurobabe]

114. I am a woman and I am disgusted by Hillary's campaign methods

I start to think she has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, just like Bush.

:wtf: happens to politicians who are addicted to power?

[istopforcookies]

115. Bi-polar?

I'm bi-polar.

Now I'm p***** off! :hssssssssss:

How dare the little woman stand up to St. Obama!!!!

Nope.

Not working.

Go Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton Go!

[Eurobabe]

121. I feel sorry for you, my mother is too.

But Hillary has Borderline personality disorder from years of dysfunctional lifestyle.

GO Barack!

[skater314159]

172. Too true dat. nt

[skater314159]

171. You sound mentally ill also. nt

[Critters2]

196. I think Obama has delusions of grandeur. nt

[BenDavid]

119. yes, but it became so apparent the msm media was promoting

obama in their reporting. Obama is receiving about 83% favorable reporting whereas HRC is about 50%. That is not right....What the HRC campaign has been complaining about is the undue negative reporting. Maybe the press like nbc, cnn, msnbc, abc should have a disclaimer and say we support obama and then give an opinion.The Whore Press was in the tank for Obama until Saturday Night Live, Letterman and Jon Stewart called them on it - then look what happened.

[Divernan]

133. Here's that Ben David guy again -all hat(talk) & no cattle (links).

[skater314159]

174. Earlier he posted totally racist BS...

... and then edited it to save his ass. I wish I'd gotten a screen-image of it saved.

Oh well, at least you know his game too.

[skater314159]

173. What if 83% of American Dems support Obama?

Is it still skewed then?

Americans need to get over this BS that you have to give equal time and credibilty to every side of an arguement... I hope you don't think that Holocaust deniers should have 50% of the time and credibilty... or 50% of time given to Creationism in school science classrooms... or that racists like the KKK should get 50% of air-time whenever minorities talk on TV.

Just because the press and the American people don't want Hillary doesn't mean we are Whores - but you believe you can't be accused of "sexism" since you support Hilly, eh?

[Catherina]

122. PLEASE SIGN the "Feminists for Obama" petition

Feminists for Peace and Barack Obama!

NOTE: This petition originally started out as NY Feminists for Peace and Barack Obama, but the response has been so overwhelming, that we have made it national. We welcome feminists from all over the country to sign on. You may choose to indicate your state along with your name and affiliation.

THE PETITION

In the coming elections, it is important to remember that war and peace are as much "women's issues" as are health, the environment, and the achievement of educational and occupational equality. Because we believe that all of these concerns are not only fundamental but closely intertwined, we will be casting our vote for Senator Barack Obama as the Democratic nominee for President of the United States.

Since the terrorist attacks of September 11, we have watched with shock and sorrow as our country has become mired in war. The resulting tragedy for our own soldiers, their immediate families and for the people of Iraq has been incalculable.

Less obvious, but no less grave has been the impact on our domestic institutions and economy. With a defense budget of half a trillion dollars and expenditures now averaging $12 billion a month for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, resources that might have been used for health care, housing, education, repair of infrastructure, relief of poverty and community development have been drained away.

We urgently need a Presidential candidate, who understands that "pre-emptive" attacks on other countries and the reliance on military force have diminished rather then strengthened our national security. And we urgently need a Presidential candidate whose first priority is to address domestic needs. We do not believe that Senator Hillary Clinton is that candidate

We base our judgment on her seven-year record as the Senator from New York. As a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, she has carefully identified herself as a supporter of a strong, enlarged and proactive military. In 2002, she voted to authorize the "use of force" against Iraq, while voting against an amendment that would have mandated further diplomacy. In subsequent years, she expressed enthusiastic support for the war effort, objected to fixed timelines for the withdrawal of U.S troops and until last summer voted for the "unconditional funding" of the war.

Under pressure from the Democratic base, Senator Clinton has recently issued numerous statements about bringing the troops home "responsibly" But her actual plan would leave tens of thousands of Americans soldiers in Iraq over a period of many years. Her record of embracing military solutions and the foreign policy advisers she has selected make us doubt that she will end this calamitous war.

Choosing to support Senator Obama was not an easy decision for us because electing a woman President would be a cause for celebration in itself and because we deplore the sexist attacks against Senator Clinton that have circulated in the media. However, we also recognize that the election of Barack Obama would be another historic achievement and that his support for gender equality has been unwavering.

In backing Senator Obama, we are mindful of the inconsistencies in his voting record and the limitations of his own plans for withdrawal. Yet it is noteworthy that at a time when this position was politically unpopular and when he was aiming for national office, Barack Obama opposed the U.S. invasion of Iraq and has spoken out against the war ever since. This puts him in a far better position to articulate a clear challenge to a Republican opponent.

We are also moved by the positive tone of the Obama campaign, the tremendous energy it has released across the country, the dramatic engagement of young people and the impetus for change that his candidacy embodies.

We are speaking out now because we cannot afford to elect another President who will continue the aggressive, interventionist policies of the present.

Signed

Click here to add your name

[skater314159]

175. Done. #1569. nt

[Catherina]

191. Thanks for signing

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

It's nice to meet you #1569. What a nice place this is.

[RamboLiberal]

123. I am a woman and a boomer and I'm pissed at her

for going for her own self gain over the Democratic party and the chance to take back the White House in 2008.

And while I at first agreed with her that she was receiving unfair treatment at the hands of the media, I think she has now taken it in to whining overdrive.

I'm also pissed that she so poorly controls the bigwigs in her campaign staff like Penn and Wolfson. Those two could work for Rove. But then maybe that explains why the Clinton's hired toe-sucker Morris in the first place.

[Fleshdancer]

126. What has she done as a candidate that a man hasn't done in past races?

What drives me nuts is being an Obama supporter who feels the need to defend Clinton on threads like this. She didn't pull the "everyone's picking on the girl" routine, she pulled the "everyone's picking on ME" routine which has been done before. The entitlement routine has also been done before. Blaming the media has been done before and her dirty smears are NOTHING compared to what I've seen from male republicans.

Do men actually sit around and think that Rove is a bad role model for other men?

Hillary Clinton, for all her faults, is a great role model for girls. She is intelligent and committed to her family and country and many of her ideas, if implemented, would be good. As for her "damaging the image and reputation of powerful women across the country"...well I call bullshit on that. Not so much because of her or her actions, but because powerful women don't rely on the image and reputation of politicians to define who they are. After all, are the reputations of powerful men damaged by the actions of Tom Delay, George Bush, etc???

[IowaGirl]

127. Gloria, you could actually give Obama supporters a good name....

for being rational intelligent people. :hug:

[CampDem]

178. You are right on in this post Gloria

Matter of fact you said it all.

[indimuse]

130. I am a woman...

and meow!

[skater314159]

134. I am a genderfuck, and I'm mad as hell at her right now.

At the beginning of this political race, I didn't really care if Obama or Hillary won. I liked them both, and thought both would improve this country as well as blaze new trails for minorities... but that has all changed for me.

I am pissed as fuck at Hillary, as she is NOT the kind of woman, with the kind of character and personality traits I want to represent our country, much less the female gender.

Thanks for the great, eloquent post... I'm too pissed to write well now!

[NC_Nurse]

139. As a woman, I realize that megalomaniacs exist in both sexes.

She is one of them. She has run a shitty campaign. First, out of touch and incompetent, now desperate and underhanded.

Unfortunately, she fits right in with the folks we're trying to get out of the White House. I hope that our process works in the end
and that she will be back in the Senate before long.

I doubt that she can single-handedly turn the gains of women around. She isn't helping, but she is showing young women how NOT
to get ahead.

[NashVegas]

180. If You Were a Woman, You'd Go Sit In the Corner

Hillary won't, that's why I likes her.

[EFerrari]

185. There's a difference between being assertive

and having no regard for the wellbeing of others.

[OzarkDem]

182. Some women don't fear the criticism of men when they know they're right

and it takes a lot of guts in this society to do that, still.

Ya gotta be strong and not every woman is.

If they were we wouldn't have so much rampant abuse and violence against women in this country.

We'll get there some day.

[EFerrari]

184. How does that address the OP?

[RaleighNCDUer]

198. And some don't hear the criticism of men when they know they're

right, even when they're wrong.

Hillary is wrong on too many issues, but criticising her brings down the wrath of her supporters who don't hear the criticism, just the pitch of the voice.

Sexism goes both ways.

[Mushroom]

186. Wow, why does your quote

about wild swings in tone, aura of entitlement, you'll have me or you'll have no one, and women gaming the system sound so familiar to me?

"Whether it's the "everyone's picking on the girl" argument, the wild swings in tone, or the aura of entitlement and "You'll have me or you'll have no one," the Clinton campaign seems to have inadvertantly played into virtually every stereotype about powerful or ambitious women as being either cynical manipulators or incompetants advancing themselves by gaming the system."

Ah yes, now I remember...

Obama, Texas debate, 2/21/08

"Now, that's -- that mother -- that mother who is desperate to get health care for her child, will be able to get that health care under my plan. Point number one.

Point number two, the reason a mandate for children can be effective is we've got an ability to make affordable health care available to that child, right now.

There are no excuses. If a parent is not providing health care for that child, it's because the parent's not being responsible, under my plan. And those children don't have a choice. But I think that adults are going to be able to see that they can afford it, under my plan; they will get it, under my plan.

And it is true that, if it turns out that some are gaming the system, then we can impose, potentially, some penalties on them for gaming the system.

But the notion that, somehow, I am interested in leaving out 15 million people, without health insurance, is simply not true."

[elana i am]

188. i'm a woman and i'm not angry with her

so much as i just think she's pathetic. nothing about her repug style campaigning suprises me cosidering she's a clinton. clintons are DLC DINOs so no way would i vote for hillary.

but i'll tell you that she doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as her hubby does. LOATHE him. I don't want her in the office because I don't want him there.

[Utopian Leftist]

189. Excellent post!

Especially this part:

"Kathleen Sebelius, Jennifer Granholm, Janet Napolitano, Ruth Ann Minner, and Christine Gregoire didn't need to equate criticism of them with sexism, or blame the media for not giving them more good press, or pull out every dirty smear they could direct at their opponent. They ran smart, respectable campaigns, and they won because they were the right people for the job."

I think it would be supremely hilarious if Obama chose one of THOSE women as his Vice President! Then, not only would he be able to silence the hysterical cries of sexism, but he might also be able to help a GOOD woman get elected President after his term concludes!

[Critters2]

192. Oh, look! A man telling women how we should feel.

There's nothing new under the sun.

Go to hell.

Sorry if you find that unladylike of me.