How could Kerry become the "Comeback Kid?" I ask as a Dean/Kuchich

[KoKo]

supporter who could have been a Number One Kerry fan if he hadn't supported the Iraq War Resolution and denied the Amendments for the Resolutions which would have put "reigns" (meaning horse reigns) on his vote which would have FORCED Bush to come back to Congress after the UN voted against him, and might have forced Inquiries into his ForeignPolicy?

[patricia92243]

1. First thing is to have a face lift

[curse10]

8. that's nice

:eyes:

[OHdem10]

10. Since these are often open primaries that is

both Republicians and Dems can vote in these primaries--mischief can be played and will according to Frank Luntz(Repub Pollster MSNBC)

Someoe could be playing mkischief on one candidate and the reult helps someone else.

Lutz has given this warning more than once on MSNBC

[karlschneider]

13. Oh, how incisive. Do you give advice to other older folks too?

I think Kerry is a man of great integrity but don't think he can beat
Shrub for various political reasons, but it's interesting you base your opinion on facial appearance.

[Mairead]

2. I think he's still drinking the DLC koolaid, expecting it to save him

And I say that with great regret. He had a lot to offer, but he believed Frome et al. and threw it away. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if he lost his Senate seat next time. There's a fair amount of unhappiness in Massachusetts over his turn to the right.

It's a real pity.

[curse10]

9. Do you live in Mass?

Because I sure do, and there is massive Kerry support here- both for his presidential run and any possible future senate runs.

[Hawkeye-X]

29. Ah...

but you forget one thing.. Dean is leading Kerry in MA, and starting to run away with it..

Hawkeye-X

[Mairead]

33. Yes, I do

Out here in western Mass there are a lot of people deeply unhappy with his turn to the right. I'd suppose the same is true in Cambridge, JP, etc. They're still giving him credit for his long record, but they're not happy with today's Kerry and are hoping it's all a sham. Which Kerry are you supporting--the strong-if-conventional liberal of days gone by, or the new DLC-centrist Kerry of the presidential campaign? I too like the Original Flavor better, myself.

[sangha]

18. What "turn to the right" are you talking about?

I find it surprising to hear Kerry described as a DLCer who is "moving right".

[Mairead]

34. The one where he reads from the DLC playbook and calls himself a 'centrist

Which is what he's been doing. As I've said often before, I think he's in trouble because playing a DLC 'centrist' is not real-Kerry so he doesn't do it very well.

[Kolesar]

3. Oops, I misread your subject line

Well, here is Dennis' history, in brief!

He was defeated for reelection as mayor of Cle after Muni Light debaucle

He did other things from ~1980 until the early nineties when he ran for Ohio State Senate. Then he ran for Congress in 1996.

I understand that Dennis did energy consulting while he was away.

[Democrats unite]

4. As a Clark supporter I do not hold that vote against Kerry...

or any Dem that voted for it. At the time of the vote, the information given to Congress we know now to be fasle. This is one time the phrase "don't shoot the messenger" would be incorrect.

[WillyT]

42. Aaaaaaaaaa..... I Hear What You're Saying, But...

How come so many others of us, found not trusting a word that came out of this administration's mouth, so easy???

I know we can be seen as the party\partisan rabble. (Sometimes known as the base.) And I'm pretty sure that polticos in D.C. USED to trust the info they were given in cases of national emergency, ie. WAR!!!

But shit man, I wish we had been wrong about how fucked up this administration is, but Kerry, and the rest of them, are supposed to be paying attention. They're supposed to be looking out for OUR best interests. The interests of the COUNTRY!

WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED???

After Debacle 2000, I was totally behind Kerry. I thought he was the only one with the credentials and 'gravitas' to go up against Bush.

The fact that he had no clue then, and apparently even less of a clue now, makes my decision to back Dean an easy one. Dean said out loud what millions of us were desperate to hear.

The Emperor Has NO Clothes, DAMMIT!!!

:mad:

[Raya]

5. Must be a chance. How else explain the new Dean Farm Bill Attacks

I hear from my Dean friends that the big guns are now focused on
Kerry in IOWA. Dean campaign must be seeing something from their big internal polling operation.

Hey, there are a lot of Dean campaigners on this board, but I doubt if they know, and if they know would tell.

[Tadah]

12. kerry was popular in Mason City

Mason City, IA was a pretty upscale town and they seem to like quiet, stable democrats.

[KoKo]

24. You make a great point. In another time Kerry would have appealed to

"quiet stable democrats." I think he just didn't get the agitation over the "Florida Selection," IWR, and that the country is so polarized.

He should have been the Quiet Strong One. Instead...he comes off as "Boring and out of it." I didn't expect it myself...and that's why I went to Dean/Kucinich.

[Tadah]

36. exactly...

"I think he just didn't get the agitation over the 'Florida Selection,'"

If I remember correctly, Bush didn't lose by much in many states. Thus, if you respect electoral politics, rather than the popular vote, Gore wouldn't have been a more stable choice.

"He should have been the Quiet Strong One"

Exactly. He may still do well. A lot of established Democrats in Minnesota like him. The local chair admires him because of Vietnam and such an old story doesn't impress new democrats.

What they (the established) didn't expect was the early and entrenched support for Dean. Many political "want-to-bes" want to ride on Dean's bandwagon and the Kerry backers, being converative and entrenched, wouldn't allow that.

I think that Dean ran his campaign like a modern day televangelist and made a lot of deep connections quickly. Future campaigns will have to adapt to this.

[KoKo]

6. All I know is he could have been the BEST Dem Candidate & Blew it!

Why and How? And, can he dig himself out of his misery? He's "stepped in it," every time he's given a chance to "break out."

He deserved better, but he didn't "live up to it." And, I want to know WHY and WHERe he went wrong after IWR! Why couldn't he have "cleverly" overcome all that?

[JPace]

15. "he could have been the BEST Dem Candidate & Blew it!"

I agree....I was a supporter of his but lately
am favoring Dean. I think Kerry tried to lean
on the memory of Kennedy, probably thought he
could be like him. He kept referring to that
time and they kept showing pictures of him
sailing with Kennedy. This is a different time
and most young people are not interested in
the past. Kerry also missed the boat on tapping
into the anger of Democrats and he looked way
to mellow and inside the beltway for the taste
of most Dems. I think we want a champion with
some passion who says it like it is, Kerry is
too late in catching on to what is needed and
that alone says maybe things are happening for
the best.

[KoKo]

22. Thanks for that. From your perspective......Riding in on someone elses

past glories, get's stale. I understand where you're coming from. Sounds like he and his advisors did some bad miscalculations. They targeted some memories of folks who loved JFK and forgot the rest of the voters who are of "Today's World."

[Raya]

20. My Buds would have gone for Kerry if he had Voted No. Too Bad, Prob. the

one of the more reliable progressive on the list. Could have
probably got some changes through Congress. Well, if only Dean
dropped out for the good of the country we could have a reasonable
choice between Kucinich, Kerry and Clark. Or maybe he should let
Gore take the nomination -- the party really owe him it. Sad.

[liberalpragmatist]

25. ::Sighs:: I know, I'm a Supporter.

I love John Kerry and I think he's one of our greatest senators. He could have been our strongest candidate. He's so smart, has such poise and command of the issues. He's one of the most reliable progressives we have and has such a logical, analytical mind -- I still maintain that he'd be a truly great president if elected -- he's the best potential president of the bunch.

But I've been so disappointed in his campaign. I'm hoping he can pull through. I don't know. His only chance is for him to improve his #'s in both NH and IA by the time of the caucases, pull a 2nd or a 1st in Iowa, get buzz and then tie with Dean or go ahead of him in NH. But it's very much a longshot. And he's abandoned his organization in other states afterward, so as of now, he has no place to go after NH, unless he somehow manages to win NH and get enough buzz to go into contention.

I'm resigned to his losing to be honest. I hope he'll win it, but I will eagerly support Dean, Clark, or whoever wins. I just wish Kerry had been the one. If, as is most likely, he loses, I intend to post a long post about why his campaign failed. There are so many reasons, which I'll go into detail then, but basically Kerry's vote on the IWR lost his support to Dean. It hurt him more than Gephardt and Edwards b/c Kerry had planned to run on national security and foreign policy, his strongest area. Gep and Edwards have run on domestic issues, so it's been more neutralized. Kerry, on the other hand, is forced to continually defend and explain his war vote and since his reasoning was complex (logical, but tough to explain) he's been hampered by it.

[revcarol]

32. IMHO, Kerry showed his inside-the-beltway-ness because he trusted

Bush and that will kill his campaign off.He just could not say what millions could see: that Bush is UNTRUSTWORTHY.

WE saw Bush go to a day care facility that, the next week, got its funding cut off. WE saw that our civil rights were being trashed by the Patriot Act and its implementation by the administration...etc., etc.Kerry doubtless really believed that the President would do the UN inspection thing and most likely the situation would be solved w/o war, but Bush BETRAYED the nation.

Kerry could not see that Bush ALWAYS betrays the nation!!

He expected Bush not to lie and cheat. That is why he should not be President, IMHO, because he has POOR JUDGMENT and CANNOT FACE UP TO REALITY, even when he sees it daily.And this is an inside-the-beltway fault.

And don't get me started on arrogance.
It IS sad that this mighty liberal has fallen:hurts: but he did it to himself.

[Capn Sunshine]

7. Its a wacky world

anything is possible.

We still haven't had a primary.

[KoKo]

11. It's a VERY Wacky World, but he really had it "ALL" going for him..and he'

swimming against a tide he didn't see coming, but he should have. I still don't understand and think we need a "strong third." I would have hoped he would do better. I don't know how long he can stay in without funding out of his houses and Theresa's backing him up through the loans on his houses.

Why didn't he do better?

[Tadah]

14. the convention

it will be interesting if there is a split between 3 or 4 candidates at the convention. even Dennis might be in the game, especially if California gives him a boatload of votes...

[mouse7]

16. Kill and eat Osama.

Kerry could show his tracking and hunting skills by hunting down and killing Osama. Of course, Kerry is somewhat trapped by his promise that he only will kill what he will eat.

Actually, it shouldn't be that tough to find him. I'd bet there's no active assets from Bush looking for him, and it can't be that hard to track a 6'8" person of Arabic persuasion riding a camel with a kidney dialysis machine on it.

[KoKo]

23. If Osama had that bad a kidney problem, it would be hard to believe we

wouldn't have found him, but I'm sort of with the DU'ers who feel he's "on ice" somewhere waiting to be brought out by Bush.

However, he had followers and with the mess Bush/PNAC has made of the ME, then I expect we will have Osama's for the rest of our lives, because he headed a "movement" that will live long after him.......:-(

Just my opinion.....2 cents.

[incapsulated]

17. Yes

All he has to do is win NH.

I don't see that happening though.

 
 
 

[sangha]

19. Here's my theory

IMO, if Dean doesn't sweep IA and NH, the media is going to talk about his "disappointing" showing, and his momentum might drop. Then there's the southern primaries, and Dean doesn't do well there either, as many suspect he won't.

Now the Dean "avalanche" starts looking more like a light snowfall, and potential Dean supporters start looking for an alternative. At this point, it's important to consider where these Dean supporters, many of whom are solidly opposed the Iraqi invasion, are going to go.

They might not want to go for a general like Clark. That leaves Gephardt, Lieberman and Kerry to split up and capture those votes. Both Lieberman and Gephardt behaved shamelesly during the whole IWR debate by undercutting the Dem leadership while it was negotiating with the Repukes, and if people are informed of this, they might lean towards Kerry, particularly if Kerry manages to pump some energy into his campaign.

[KoKo]

21. Sangha, interesting theory. And I'm a strong anti IWR but not "Anti-any

War." I have problems with Clark (Military and other things) so if Kerry found a way to make his way back, I'd take a look if Dean and Kuchinch are totally imploded. Don't think it will happen with Dean....and Kucinich is still hanging on....but after that....if Kerry can hang....who knows?

[sangha]

26. Good point

I didn't mention DK because of his low odds. However, IMO many Dean supporters are "protest votes" against the war and "politics as usual" and I think DK would pick up a lot of votes, making it hearder for the "leading" candidates to gain much.

IMO, the important thing to consider in any evaluation of this primary season is that Dean is not only going to have to sweep NH and IA, he MUST do well in the South, and that's still a huge open question. As an underdog without the political connections the others have, Dean's campaign depends on momentum. If he doesn't have momentum, the media is going to start talking about that, and people will start to wonder if Dean can do it.

[Lobo_13]

27. He needs a strong second place finish in IA AND NH

just to get back in the game.

And it's looking more and more like he's not going to get either.

Traditionally, the guy who raises the most money wins the nomination, traditionally. But this has been a most non-traditional cycle.

However, what Dean and Gep have that Kerry doesn't is huge organizations swollen with unions. Kerry would have to expend a tremendous amount of cash to counteract that kind of on the ground organizing. Cash he doesn't have.

He's also going to have to contend with the shortened primary season. This is going to be decided within a five week window, which means that he'll have to capitalize on any momentum gained by "better than expected" showings in the first two weeks. That gives him three weeks to affect a titanic turnaround.

I don't see it happening. He's a tremendous senator, but he pooched his shot at the big game.

[Raya]

28. Anyone Know why the Party Didn't seem to Really Want Kerry?

At least that's the impression I got.

Too Aloof even from the Party as well as from ordinary folks, maybe?

He seemed pretty solid in the debates.

[sleipnir]

30. His crimes are rather evident.

He voted for an illegal war and praised Bush's warmongering and death-dealing. He does not deserve anything, though Kerry feels he's entitled to the nomination.

[Lobo_13]

31. It has nothing to do with the party

He got himself into this mess by his own fecklessness.

He had three different groups of people giving him contradictory advice. He refused matching funds, even though he KNEW he was not going to be able to compete with Dean financially. He had to take a short term loan of 850,000.00 probably just to stay solvent while the mortgage was being finalized. Now he has just enough money to stay in the race through NH with no prospects of putting up a fight after that.

It's a mind-bogglingly inept campaign that can't really be laid at anyone's feet but his own.

[reachout]

35. With what?

I'm just wondering what Kerry would use to come back with? His campaign is anemic, he hasn't found an issue to latch onto and run with, and he has failed to mobilize an effective nationwide support base. With seventeen days to the Iowa caucus and only a month until Super Tuesday, what sort of rabbit can he possibly pull out of his hat at this point?

Okay, let's just pretend (for a moment) that his IWR vote didn't happen. Why would anyone want the Democratic nominee to be someone who can't run a more effective dynamic campaign than this? You do realize the will be going up against one of the most effective election strategy teams ever assembled (with the biggest budget ever for a reelection campaign), right? If Dean, or anyone else, was showing this kind of ineffectiveness at this point in the game they too would deserve to be weeded out.

Kerry may be a fine human being, who was simply misguided in his IWR vote, but he has committed to mortal sin of being a poor campaigner.


On Edit: I should have said two months until Super Tuesday, one month until Little Tuesday (or whatever you want to call it).

[killbotfactory]

37. Kerry is going nowhere...

But down.

The guy touts his IWR vote like a badge of honor after Saddam was caught, and then runs anti-war ads in NH. The guy "nuanced" his campaign to death.

[Raya]

38. I do wonder whether if Kerry does 2nd in IOWA the Press will give a boost?

I frankly don't believe it will happen. The story is already set and
I think Kerry is too naive to realize this and find a way around it.

[molly]

39. Kerry did not "support" the war

for once and for all - Kerry did not support the war - he called for a resolution which called for gwb go before the UN and argue his case for war - if Kerry had not supported the resolution for gwb go before the UN and argue the case - gwb would have just GONE. Why cannot ordinary people understand this concept or have they been brainwashed?

[isbister]

47. Re: Kerry did not "support" the war

Why cannot ordinary people understand this concept or have they been brainwashed?

Its probably a little bit of both combined with Kerry's not communicating his position correctly/enough.

Most folks don't have or take the time to actually find out the facts on candidate's positions and rely on the media for their information. Dean's early attacks and misleading statements about the IWR vote (blah, blah, blah, voted for the war) helped people's misunderstanding as well.

[stickdog]

40. No chance.

He's Clark's stalking horse now. His incessant pro-Bush attacks on Dean have guaranteed that.

Kerry's campaign is DOA. Along with kamikazes Lieberman & Gwphardt, he's just another DLC "Stop Dean" pawn now.

[molly]

41. Dean has done it to himself

he has alienated all other candidates - he will not be the nominee - he is not a team player - he is not a DEM candidate.

[stickdog]

43. Exactly, he's done it to himself.

By putting himself in the best position to win the nomination.

[molly]

44. He thinks he will - but, he won't

bet me anything.

[Lobo_13]

45. I'll bet you . . .

a quarter.

[KittyWampus]

46. Stickdog, Get Your Story Straight- Clark Is The Stalking Horse For Hillary

:eyes: