Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Why "the Muslim thing" plays with ignorant white people (attempt at serious non-partisan post)

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:06 PM
Original message
Why "the Muslim thing" plays with ignorant white people (attempt at serious non-partisan post)
Edited on Thu Mar-13-08 07:52 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
I am not an expert on Islam, NOI and traditional black churches. I know a little. So I hope people will offer productive contributions to this thread that exceed my understanding. But this is my take on why "the Muslim thing" is such a durable problem.

I have never considered American Black Muslims (Nation of Islam) to be Muslim in the traditional sense. The NOI adoption of Islam was born of romanticizing of Islam as the least white great religion, and aspects of Islam were added to a distinctly American black empowerment, black nationalist mix of religion and social movement. NOI is as American as Mormonism... a truly American religion.

But most Americans are not very sophisticated about Islam. A lot of white people know there are a lot of African-Americans who call themselves Muslims, and that's about as much as they know.

And they know that Muslims, whatever the heck a Muslim is, are "bad" and blow up our buildings. I do not equate NOI and the Islam that we are supposed to be scared of, but many people do.

And something that clouds the issue is that the traditional black church is also part church, part social movement. Many black Christan churches are friendly with NOI and do things in the community with the NOI.

Obama has nothing to do with NOI, but he is called on to answer Tim russert's rude questions about Farrakhan because his church is allied with Farrakhan on matters that have nothing to do with anti-semitism or Islam... like anti-drug programs in the community and such.

When Jeremiah Wright praises Louis Farrakhan as the "epitome of greatness" he is praising a Muslim, albeit not a "muslim-muslim" And when he says 9/11 represented the chickens of white American violence coming home to roost he is precisely quoting Malcom X's description of 1960s riots. And Pastor Wright, in one of the clips, echoed Malcom X's famous "apple pie" quote. (And Malcom X was a Muslim, though of the NOI variety, not the traditional variety.)

From an unsophisticated perspective, Obama's church honors Muslim leaders and his pastor quotes "anti-American" sounding Muslim words.

To understand the durability of the "Muslim thing" you have to recognize the popular conflation of Islam and NOI, and that it is not at all weird for an American black man to describe himself as a Muslim. (I think Representative Ellison, our first Muslim congressman, is more of an American Black Muslim than a traditional follower of Islam, though I may be wrong about that.)

So the "Obama is a Muslim" thing doesn't sound as implausible to many folks as it should. Many, many white Americans could not begin to differentiate Islam and NOI. They have seen a lot of black American men self-identified as Muslim on TV. They know that Muhammad Ali (the most famous black American in the world from 1965 to whenever Micheal Jackson took over) is a Muslim... whatever that means.

That's why this stuff is so complicated, and so hard to bat down.

(I cannot stand religion in politics, but I try to cut Obama some slack on that front because he's the first politician with a good excuse to keep proclaiming his Christianity. Actaully, the second... I forgot Mitt Romney.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
keep_it_real Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Stop the BS; the NOI has NOTHING to do with Obama
The Clinton campaign is losing and you are stretching out of the emotion of desperation. Your candidate is losing - suck it up.

The Clinton campaign are LIARS and so are you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I am not suggsting Obama is NOI, so your point is side-ways
Edited on Thu Mar-13-08 07:25 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. This is why they won't run w/ the Wright story.
It would alert everyone to the fact that he is a Christian. Can't have that can we...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. Then the goal is to get the truth out to the last 13% ... can they read?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. The 'Muslim' thing is a lasting problem like the 'Jewish' thing hurt Lieberman in 2000?
Or was it massive election fraud that caused the problem in 2000?

And why is the lie that Obama is Muslim be more worrisome to you than the truth that Clintons will continue the protection of BushInc into the next decade?

Why is closed government that thinks citizens have no right to open and accountable government attractive to you while you pretend that a lie about Obama is a deal breaker?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Another bizarre reply... sorry for trying to discuss anything real in this hell-hole.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Nope. Just stripping it all down to its most basic matters. That you fail to see it and
continue to fight out on the stupid peripheral matters that don't say one thing about this nation's governance or direction speaks volumes to YOUR priorities.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. THERE'S NO FIGHTING
The fighting is in your head.

This OP is very sympathetic to Obama, but your hate prevents you from even reading words for what they say.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Hill supporters keep bringing it up for one reason and it isn't to be helpful or
sympathetic.

Trojan Horse.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. As you wish...
I wrote this in a neutral frame of mind because today's posts have gotten me thinking about NOI and how it relates to the Muslim smear.

I don't like Obama, but not because I think he's a Muslim! I am genuinely sympathetic on that front, and amazed that middle-American types keep volunteering that he's a Muslim.

It's a lie that some people seem predisposed to believe, and this OP is offering an explanation of why.

My explanation may be wrong, but it's not senseless.

And I admit that I often view Obama supporters as an undifferentiated hive-mind, so I cannot blame you for thinking the same. But this post is sincere, and sparked to some degree by reading a very good post earlier about people's views of Malcom X, who I think was a pretty cool guy.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Well, I hope you mean that, and will take you at your word.
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. We are all, or should be, invested in both candidates
I do not want Obama to win today, but in a few weeks it is probable that I will want him to win a different race against John McCain.

I do not want him destroyed.

And this Muslim business is genuinely perplexing. But then I realize that I often see Obama as similar to the handsome, dark-suited, dignified brilliant speaking NOI guys in the community.

The thing is, I don't think of NOI guys as Muslim, like 9/11 Muslim, so there's no "Muslim" recognition there to me. But Obama is more like Malcom X than he is like Al Sharptom. (And I mean that in a good way)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Not to me. I see great differences.
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I agree, most times you aggravate me but this time you need my support.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'm not sure it's as durable as you believe
87% of Americans do NOT believe that Obama is a Muslim. That's a very high percentage of people who aren't buying into that meme. And furthermore, my guess is that most Americans haven't even heard of the NOI.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. No, they haven't. That's the point of the OP
Everyone knows there's now a "Muslim" congressman, and they probably assume he's an Arab.

Everyone knows Muhammad Ali is a Muslim, and probably think that means he shares a religion with the Saudi princes.

I consider the idea that Obama is a muslim is on par with the WMD being stashed in Syria... a bizarre thing FOX viewers think.

But I have been thinking about why it isn't OBVIOUSLY absurd for people to think Obama is a Muslim, and realized that I have been seeing brilliant speech-making black men in suits my whole life who are called Muslim. It's just that I don't think of them as Muslim. I think of them as NOI.

But since the average white American has never heard of NOI, as you noted, they think that "Muslim" is a broader category.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
8. It truly is complicated
...and a political campaign is hardly the best forum. That said - it is the only time it begins to emerge at the top of the agenda. So there we have it. The best we can do.


Thanks for the thinking.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
better tomorrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
17. Bush began with a Muslim controversy and
he will go out with one.

We still need to prove that Muslims caused 911 (I highly doubt it and believe in the conspiracy theories that Americans were involved beginning with Guiliani) so it is only fitting that they leave office making sure that the Jihad continues......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Leo 9 Donating Member (560 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
19. The Right-Wing Project to Cast Obama as a Muslim and Anti-Semite
The Right-Wing Project to Cast Obama as a Muslim and Anti-Semite

By Ari Berman, The Nation. Posted March 13, 2008.


He's been defended by AIPAC on his Israel views, made it clear that he's Christian, yet the media keeps swallowing right-wing lies.


He's a Muslim. He was sworn into office on the Koran. He doesn't say the Pledge of Allegiance. His pastor is an anti-Semite. He's a tool of Louis Farrakhan. He's anti-Israel. His advisers are anti-Israel. He's friends with terrorists. The terrorists want him to win. He's the Antichrist.


By now you've probably seen at least some of these e-mails and articles about Barack Obama bouncing around the Internet. They distort Obama's religious faith, question his support for Israel, warp the identity and positions of his campaign advisers and defame his friends and allies from Chicago. The purpose of the smear is to paint him as an Arab-loving, Israel-hating, terrorist-coddling, radical black nationalist. That picture couldn't be further from the truth, but you'd be surprised how many people have fallen for it. The American Jewish community, one of the most important pillars of the Democratic Party and US politics, has been specifically targeted . What started as a largely overlooked fringe attack has been thrust into the mainstream -- used as GOP talking points, pushed by the Clinton campaign, echoed by the likes of Meet the Press host Tim Russert. Falsehoods are repeated as fact, and bits of evidence become "elaborate constructions of malicious fantasy," as the Jewish Week, America's largest Jewish newspaper, editorialized.


What floods into one's inbox these days bears little or no relation to Obama's record. "Some of my earliest and most ardent supporters came from the Jewish community in Chicago," he has said. Obama ran for the Senate promising to help reconstitute the black-Jewish civil rights coalition. His first foreign policy speech of the campaign was before the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), where he pledged "clear and strong commitment to the security of Israel." He has occasionally angered pro-Israel hawks by urging direct negotiations with Iran and Syria, but Obama's foreign policy record is well within the Democratic Party mainstream. He's committed to a two-state solution between Israel and the Palestinians, supported Israel's incursion into Lebanon in 2006 and has criticized Hamas. During his campaign for the presidency, Obama has been defended by AIPAC, the neoconservative New York Sun and The New Republic's Marty Peretz, a noted Israel hawk. And yet no defense of Israel by Obama -- or of Obama by the pro-Israel establishment -- seems to be enough. "When one charge is disproved, another is leveled," says Rabbi Jack Moline, who leads a synagogue in Alexandria, Virginia.


It's nearly impossible to decipher where the smears originated . The Jewish Telegraphic Agency traced one e-mail back 200 people before it stopped with a filmmaker in Tel Aviv who didn't receive a return address. "No one knows if it's the Clintons, a rogue agent or a Rove agent," says Congressman Steve Cohen, a Jewish Obama backer who represents a largely black district in Memphis. Likely it's a combination of the three.


snip

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/79627 /

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5065378&mesg_id=5065378
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
better tomorrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
20. this is not true
He's a Muslim. He was sworn into office on the Koran. That was some other politician.

Check SNOPES
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JorgeTheGood Donating Member (736 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
21. only white people can be ignorant ??? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue May 07th 2024, 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC