Took the Hillary bumper sticker off my car today, BUT...

[demokatgurrl]

I haven't dumped her, and may still vote for her in the primary- I am torn between that or writing in Edwards or Kucinich. I just no longer am proud to be associated with that campaign. It's a disaster and an embarassment to the party.
I am still not enthusiastic about Obama- I'm quite ambivalent about him, in fact, but will vote for him if he is the nominee.

But I am willing to be persuaded, or at least listen, to REASON, about why he would 1) likely win the general election and 2) be a competent president. I am not expecting great and, in fact, Bush has set the bar so low that "moderately intelligent and fairly coherent" would be a significant upgrade. And Obama certainly surpasses that bar.
But can he fight off the repukes? When the new version of the Swift Boat Liars starts digging into minor events in his past and blowing them up all over the MSM, and the residents of Dumbfuckistan start buying into it, will he and CAN he fight them off? Or will he fold like Kerry did?

[rpannier]

1. The only bar that DUH-bya has ever raised

is someone else's bar tab as he stiffed them for the drinks.

[EmilyAnne]

3. LOL.

But what about that other Bar?

Bar-bra Bush?

[lligrd]

2. Yes We Can

if we quit saying he can't. That is exactly why Kucinich always loses. Quit saying Obama can't win. The Republicans are scared to death of him.

[Deep13]

6. You have it backwards.

It is true because we say it. We say it because it is true. He has alienated the more traditional, older D.'s who do most of the volunteer work and who are the most reliable D. voters. Most of the cross-over voters are voting against Hillary and will vote for McC in the fall. Nothing will change this things.

[high density]

10. Clinton has alienated everybody BUT the "older Ds"

There were hundreds of independent voters at my caucus who had switched their registrations over to Democrat, and we went about 66% for Obama. It seems it's out with the old, in with the new, and that's not a bad thing in my opinion.

[Deep13]

13. She's done no such thing.

It is the complete distortion of her remarks and of her record that have aloowed her to be painted as some kind of evil tyrant. After 20 years in this party, I resent being thrown on the ash heap. Don't be crying about party loyalty this autumn. I supported the D.'s, not the other way around. We have no reason to support anyone who is willing to throw us under the bus.

[high density]

16. I think Hillary is going to throw us under the bus

Clinton is the one out there telling us that McCain is qualified to be president but Obama is not... But wait, Obama might be qualified to be VP. But he'll only be qualified for that by September... Maybe...

You can't go talking about party loyalty and support Clinton's tactics at the same time.

[ThatBozGuy]

18. Your throwing you under the bus the minute you decided that a 20 year democrat is some how better...

than a new one. Creating a class system within the party is exactally why we are divided and goes against the very nature of the party.

We are the Democratic Party not the Old Democratic Party, not the Womans Democratic Party, not the White Guy Democratic Party, not the African American Democratic Party and so on and as soon as you started seeing it divided that way you stopped being part of the Democratic Party and became a Partisan. Partisans by nature are separatist that end up on the trash heap as outliers and not Party members.

I realize that to support your candidate you have been regularly told that there are different Democrats and different states that matter, but as "A DEMOCRAT" that should not be your position. We are a party of union in common belief of belonging to like minded people, to create separate classes is to leave that belief behind and you should then be looking inside to find out why you are no longer a Democrat.

Note I am not saying you are not a Democrat if you support Ms Clinton, I am saying you are not a Democrat if you believe that any class of Democrats is somehow better than or more important and less than equal to any other Democrat.

[hedgehog]

19. Exactly how has Obama thrown you "under the bus"? nt

[RoadRage]

11. He has alienated the more traditional, older D.'s ..

And has attracted millions of younger new D's to the party in their place. Many of those "older" D's have been waiting 7 years to vote for Hillary, and he's not stupid. He knows the only way to win this thing is to get voters from outside the box of the democratic party line.

So shame on him for attracting independents, some repugs, and millions of new younger voters who have never voted before? Yeah.. we wouldn't want this party to be the party of the new younger generation.. makes much more sense to keep it old & stagnet. :eyes:

[Deep13]

14. False dilemma.

It doesn't have to be either/or. Embracing one group only means excluding the other if one is suicidal. My point is he cannot win without the more experienced voters and many of the new ones will likely cross back to the R.'s in the fall. Who said anything about it being stagnant? That's your characterization, not mine.

If the convention has a brain in its collective head, it will reject both candidates and nominate Edwards.

[RoadRage]

21. Well that street runs both ways..

And Hillary can't win by ailianating voters under age 40. And the democratic party can't win in the future by leaving us out either.. because we eventually turn into the 60 year olds...

[helderheid]

20. My 63 year old white mother lifelong Democrat cannot WAIT to vote for OBAMA. Hillary has totally

turned her off. She used to have a Hillary bumper sticker but she has thrown it in the trash months ago.

[democrattotheend]

4. With regard to competence as president

Here's my argument for why he would be a competent president:

Throughout his entire career, he has demonstrated a willingness to listen to different points of view, including those that are opposed to his own. There was a http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cass-r-sunstein/the-obama-i-know_b_90034.html">great article from Cass Sunstein, who has known Obama for years, about this recently. He described how Obama believed wiretapping was unconstitutional, but wanted to talk to someone with the opposing viewpoint and hear all the arguments before taking a public position.

One of the problems with the Bush Administration has been the group think problem - Bush tends to surround himself with people who agree with him and tune out opposing viewpoints. That has led to some really bad decisions, such as going to war in Iraq and how the war was managed.

I don't necessarily think Hillary Clinton would be the same way as president, but I am concerned about what I have read about her tendency to reward loyalty over all else, including competence, with her staff.

I am also encouraged by his commitment to transparency and participatory government. I read his http://www.barackobama.com/issues/technology/#solve-problems">technology plan on his website, and I liked some of his proposals, including a plan to make the White House website interactive and use the website to give the public 5 days to comment before signing any non-emergency legislation. He also plans to appoint a Chief Technology Officer who would be responsible for ensuring that each arm of the federal government makes its records open and accessible as the E-Government Act requires.

I have some thoughts on electability that I will share at a later time, but I wanted to address the competency part of your question first.

[flor de jasmim]

5. We need to stop focusing on the people who "take away" votes ...

the idea that "he can't win" because he can't win 100% of the vote! All of these accounts (including who would win in the GE) are based upon previous voting records. If he continues to bring in first-time voters at the rate he has so far in this campaign, he will have no problem winning in the GE.

[Deep13]

7. See post #6.

[high density]

8. I decided it was too costly to be ambivalent about Obama

I don't like the way Clinton has been campaigning. At the time when I caucused last month, my vote was cast more as a vote against Clinton and her overall negative aura than it was for Obama. In my opinion, Clinton's 'trial balloon of the day' campaign makes her much more nebulous when compared with Obama.

Now I am fully an Obama supporter. I have no doubts that his campaign can play the media game a thousand times better than Kerry's joke squad that was apparently stuck in the pre-internet days. I also think he will set the proper priorities as president, unlike what McCain would do.

[FSogol]

9. Please don't write in a candidate

1. You will never find anyone that matches all of your beliefs, convictions, and aspirations 100%. Sometimes you must compromise.

2. Find a local candidate that you dig and concentrate your energies on his/her campaign. Then you can ignore the National race.

3. Remember the Supreme Court. Do you really want McCain selecting 3 more justices? They'll be like Thomas, Scalia, and Alito and will ruin this country for another half century.

Again: Please don't write in a candidate. Vote for whoever has a (D) after their name.

[krawhitham]

12. so you are debating voting for Hillary or pissing your vote away?

Then why even vote?

Either vote for Hillary (if you are against Obama) or do not vote

[thevoiceofreason]

15. One word: Coattails

Barack's coattails are long and impressive. From Foster's victory in IL-14 to the enthusiasm we have seen in Texas, Barack on the ballot helps the down-ticket democrats immensely because of the energy his campaign brings to the party. I know several down-ticket folks in Texas who have bluntly realized that with him on top, they have a good chance. If Hillary leads the ticket, they have no chance.

As for folding, that is not in his nature. His reasoned approach will contrast so nicely with snarky, hot-head McCain that everyone will see and appreciate Obama. Besdies, I'm one of those who believe that a gerbil could win the presidency if it was the democratic candidate. The economy is going to get much much worse.

[ThatBozGuy]

17. It boils down to simple focuses and stances that frame all broader direction from Mr Obama

Every stance he takes comes from a base set of principles that are change from what we have been doing.

On the war he is not against war, he is against wrongful war, and this stems directly from his base principle that America should not and has not until recently operated on the principle of a Pre-Emptive war stance. A Pre-Emptive war stance is perpetual war, we will always have enemies to attack

On the Economy his base principle is we must be stronger in creation of jobs and allowing more Americans to have more money, this sets his policy on Education IE: We must invest in education to gain its benefit. It sets his policy on trade agreements IE : We must work in a global economy environment but we always have to gain the best hand for our interests. It sets his policy on energy IE : We must remove our dependence on foreign oil, which is two fold impact on the economy through his green policy, in both job creation and conservation.

On America's domestic strength, his base principle is we must invest in America's superstructures such as roadways, electrical grid technologies, water management at the same time balancing environmental impacts.

On America's foreign strength, his base principle is we must rebuild America's leadership role in the world, through more diplomacy rather than overt force.

On America as a government, his base principle is that government is a tool of prosperity and assistance, not entitlement and encroachment. In general the greater common good is the mechanism that it should fulfill at all times. Helping those who can't help themselves and enabling success and growth to those who can.

On American's rights, the base principle is all people are created equally no matter what your creed nor ethnicity or sexual identity or religious background or any other individual identifier, His principle on that is clear, protect ones rights as you would protect your own.

On listening to America, his principle is he doesn't know everything and has to listen to the people to stay in touch, many politicians believe in a form of selective fascism, that they know what is best for the American people if they would just stop talking and do as they are told. Mr Obama's position is that The American people know what they need and it is his job to serve them not the other way around.

You may notice many of these base principles sound very familiar, it is because they are all the very make up, in most cases the exact wording of the constitution and that is the most overwhelming directive to Mr Obama, not just as a document, but as a living breathing agreement that makes us all Americans , the "We the people" that history has bound us together through what the founding fatherrs brought to fruition and has survived through to today.

Is he the only person that could be our president, no, but he is the only candidate that is running that believes at his core that the presidents lot in life is to serve the American peoples directives and not the other way around and understands that that service and the framing of all decisions is the constitution, a document he is not only educated on, but has fought for and educated others on.

That and many other reasons are why I support him and I would encourage you to look into more extensively for yourself.