Can ANY Of You Obama Zealots Deny The Following Facts?

[Danzo]

1. African Americans make up a VERY substantial voting block in America.

2. Obama has gotten a MUCH larger share of the African American vote that Hillary did.

3. The African American votes accumulated by Obama has almost certainly resulted in a SIGNIFICANT number of additional delegates.

4. At the very least, Obama's delegate lead to date would NOT BE AS BIG without the boost that he's gotten from getting the lion's share of the vote in the African American demographic.


I think it's CLEAR that the race would, AT THE VERY LEAST, be closer without the African American vote that Obama has gotten the strong majority of. In that sense, I think Geraldine Ferrara is CORRECT that Obama wouldn't be in the same place as he is if he were a caucasion.

"New articles frequently mention that he will win certain primary states because many of the Democratic voters in these states are African-American. Obviously, these citizens are voting for him because of his skin color, and many couldn't tell you significant things about the Illinois senator otherwise that deem him worthy to be considered for the presidency. It appears that our collective unconsciousness regarding racism has made this a very unfair fight, and those who won't acknowledge this are kidding themselves, but no one else."


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/community/news/windermere/orl-ferraro1308mar13,0,6758587.story

[uponit7771]

1. FACT NOT IN DISPUTE: Blacks didn't vote for Obama 9 - 1 until AFTER South Carolina.

...you're point refuted on its premise

[LisaL]

9. They didn't?

What state had a primary before South Carolina, where African-Americans are a large percentage of the voters, and where African-Americans did not vote for Obama 9-1?

[polpilot]

311. Obama CAN WIN, Pro-War, Pro-NAFTA Clinton CAN'T. Any ??????????

[moobu2]

34. No, Barack played the race card in South Carolina

Accusing the Clintons of being racists, which as he very well knew, and planed in advance, would split off most African American support for Hillary Clinton. That was South Carolina. Karma’s a bitch

[blonndee]

56. Um, no, unfortunately, Bill Clinton made racist remarks re: South Carolina

which did not serve the Clinton campaign well.

[rodeodance]

276. silly---that is why you are wrong!!--It never made sense for Bill to

play the race card.

He did not.

It was BO campaign who brought race into this primary.

[NDambi]

290. Bull shit...

[rucky]

293. It very much made sense...

as soon as it started looking like Hillary would lose a predomimently black-D state. She could explain away her loss more easily and peg Obama as "the black candidate" in the process.

Same thing happened with Gerry on the eve of Mississippi.

It's either a coincidence or a deliberate strategy, depending on who you support.

[jackson_dem]

306. You're right. Who do you think dug up Ferraro's old comment 1-2 days before MS?

She made her comment prior to 3/4. Why do you think Obama, who barely cracked the 30's in white support in Ohio, didn't bring it up before 3/4? The race card magically appears whenever convenient for St. Obama...

[Nedsdag]

295. GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL, RODEODANCE!!!!!!

HE BROUGHT UP JESSE JACKSON!!!!!! WHY DID HE HAVE TO MENTION JESSE JACKSON??????!!!!

Other candidates have won South Carolina's primary, WHY DID HE BRING UP JESSE JACKSON?

[Arkansas Granny]

297. Have you seen or read the entire interview? The reporter was specifically

pressing him on the issue of race baiting. Before he mentioned Jesse Jackson he had also mentioned John Lewis and Andrew Young as being with Martin Luther King, Jr. every step of the way. Was that also race baiting?

When you put his remarks in context, I just don't see that his reference to Jesse Jackson was race baiting or that it should have offended anyone.

You can read the entire interview here:

http://www.laprensama.com/bill_clinton_transcript_south_carolina_jesse_jackson

[jackson_dem]

305. Because only two candidates have won SC on racial voting. One is JJ. Who is the other?

Everyone else won both racial groups, not say one racial group 4:1 over second place and 78:1, yes 78:1, over third place while finishing a distant third with the other racial group.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

309. He has to know what you're saying is true, or at least knew it before drinking the Kool-Aid.

[babylonsister]

300. Ahem-why did Leahy, Kennedy, Kerry, and Clyburn call him and

chastize him? Why did his wife apologize for him? He DID play the race card. Open your eyes.

[avrdream]

280. Um, no, unfortunately you are wrong: the Obama campaign threw that race card.

No way would the Clinton campaign be anti-African American - they have ALWAYS been strong supporters of all minorities. FACT!

[NDambi]

291. When it benefitted them...Bill and Hill use the AA community to get what they want..and when a black

man threatened their world rule...they tried to take him down because of his race.

Fuck them. And if Hillary is the nominee, you can bet she won't get the black vote and McCain will win...

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

307. That was the beginning of the end, and you can thank Bill for that.

[EFerrari]

64. Those poor Clintons. I'm so glad they'll never face the pressure

of being in the White House again. Such poor victims should be spared that kind of challenge.

[rodeodance]

282. your crystal ball needs replacing. --there is sale down at the Dollar Store.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

37. but NH 1.05%and Iowa 2.5% SC 30.01% AA 's so your arguement is about "until SC" is bad analogy

NH 1.05 %

Iowa 2.5%

SC 30.01%

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

310. THANK YOU for pointing this out!

[democrattotheend]

2. I did a little analysis

And figured out that at least among those who admitted race or gender was a factor in the exit polls, Clinton has gotten a much bigger boost from being a woman than Obama has gotten from being black. Among those who said race was a factor, Obama has lost as many votes as he has gained.

http://purplestatepundit.com/blog/election08/quantitative-analysis-are-ferraros-claims-accurate/trackback/

[Danzo]

22. Not A Bad Study...

...although I think the fact is that the population of women is pretty consistent from state to state while the African American population differs a great deal from state to state, and that could skew the data a little bit.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mz Pip]

4. I suppose it would depend

on who Obama was running against.

[MichiganVote]

5. Dude...it doesn't matter...we are going to WIN, WIN, WIN in November!!

[Umbram]

35. I like you. (nt)

[MichiganVote]

:) Well thanks, I like me too.

[woolldog]

6. I would point out that what killed

Clinton's campaign was that post super Tuesday run where Obama won 11 straight states. Almost all of those states were majority white, like Wisonsin, Idaho etc. And the ones that had a significant AA electorate like Maryland and Virginia he also won the white vote overwhelmingly too.

I'm just going by memory so I may be wrong.

[Danzo]

136. "Majority white?"

Isn't that true of most, if not ALL states?

[woolldog]

231. ok. how about "lilly white" electorate?

[Danzo]

248. How about....?

...something a little less racially charged like "states which have relatively low populations of African Americans?"

[woolldog]

258. I don't consider lilly-white to be racially charged.

Quit playing the race card.

[Danzo]

263. Not Playing The Race Card...

...just telling you how I feel about the term lilly-white. I'm not going to apologize for expressing my opinion about that.

[woolldog]

268. lilly-white

lily-white (lĭl'ē-hwīt', -wīt')

adj.

1. White as a lily.
2. Beyond reproach; blameless.
3. Informal. Excluding or seeking to exclude Black people.

http://www.answers.com/topic/lily-white

[VolcanoJen]

264. Stop making our point!

Are you actually paying attention?

[bilgewaterbill]

7. Geraldine Ferraro admitted that she wouldn't have been the VP nominee

if she hadn't been a woman. You play the hand you're dealt.

[Danzo]

24. To Me...

...that's just further evidence that she tells it like it is.

[bilgewaterbill]

74. Then why did Hillary bail on her?

[Danzo]

80. I Can't Read Hillary's Mind, But...

...I imagine that the negative press coverage that it generated against Hillary was a big factor.

[bilgewaterbill]

92. In other words "NO GUTS!"

[Danzo]

I Guess That's Politics For You

I think pretty much EVERY politician considers the public opinion ramifications of the actions of their campaign staff.

[bilgewaterbill]

118. Hillary is supported by more women. So the point of this thread was what?

To jack up your post total?

[Danzo]

189. The Point Was...

...just to say that there's SOME truth to what Geraldine Ferraro said.

[Arkansas Granny]

299. Or maybe Gerry left because she was afraid she would create more

problems by staying.

[frazzled]

104. Geraldine Ferraro was picked by one individual for that position--she didn't earn it with votes

That's a big difference.

I do dispute the facts. Does everyone have amnesia here? For nearly a year the polls showed that Hillary Clinton had the support of something like 80% of black voters. Even in South Carolina for many many months, until after Iowa, Clinton was beating Obama silly with the black vote.

You could not turn on a television or radio show without Obama being asked why he couldn't get the black vote, why they preferred Hillary.

That all changed with two things: (1) he won Iowa, a white state, proving to African Americans that he actually had national appeal; and (2) the Clinton's began to play the race card, engendering much hurt in the black community, which defected fairly soundly, despite her support from prominent black politicians.

Barack Obama was not chosen by an individual to be on a ticket; he has earned the many votes and delegates and states he has won the hard way: by campaigning, and organizing, and speaking. Hillary Clinton lost the good will from the black community her husband had earned.

That was then, this is now. Then, it was okay for Bill Clinton to get 90% of the black vote. Somehow, now, it's not okay for Barack Obama to get 90% of the black vote. Whazzup with that? Black Americans make a total of 13% of the electorate in this nation. In many of the states Obama has won, there have been few to no black voters.

So I do dispute the OPs "facts." Conclusively.

[bilgewaterbill]

128. Well stated!! Kudos!

[AX10]

8. It is true that the demographic of the Southeast states favored him.

The left wing in this country is hypersensitive when it comes to the issue of race, among other things.

[Danzo]

83. I Couldn't Agree More

Right in this very thread, you can see people calling me a "(blatant racist)" just for BRINGING up the FACT that Obama's ethnic background is a FACTOR in this race.

[AX10]

102. Obviously.

This reminds as to why I never really got involved with the activist left.
The activist right is just as bad.

[Heathen57]

285. Perhaps that is because your OP

seems to point to the premise that he is getting the AA vote only because he is black. Whether you meant it that way or not, it is the point that you and Gerry F. are putting forth.

Thta is very much like saying that the AA aren't smart enough to decide that Obama is the better candidate in their opinion.

That is where the problems come in.

[K Gardner]

10. So, black people shouldn't be allowed to vote? What's your point and WTF are you using the word

zealot in your race-based post?

[Danzo]

97. Zealot Has Nothing To Do With Race.

I've called Obama supports zealots on MANY occasions, not just in this thread.

And no, I ABSOLUTELY think that African Americans should be allowed to vote.

[theboss]

140. Well, that's mighty white of you

I think blacks should vote too.

[Danzo]

143. Good.

I'm glad we agree.

[theboss]

156. Should their votes count as a full vote? Or maybe just 3/5 of a vote?

I go back and forth.

[Danzo]

188. Full

[theboss]

199. That's quite a progressive attitude

I'm impressed.

But there should be some kind of tax or test to make sure that illiterate blacks or poor blacks can't vote.

On that, I'm sure we agree.

[Danzo]

202. Nope.

People of all races and ethnic backgrounds should have equal opportunity to vote.

[oasis]

11. self-delete

[K Gardner]

15. Effe off. No one owes this race-baiting bullshit a response.

[krawhitham]

12. 2 can play

1. White Women make up a VERY substantial voting block in America.

2. Hillary has gotten a MUCH larger share of the White Women vote that Obama did.

3. The White Women votes accumulated by Hillary has almost certainly resulted in a SIGNIFICANT number of additional delegates.

4. At the very least, Hillary's delegate lead to date would NOT BE AS BIG without the boost that she's gotten from getting the lion's share of the vote in the White Women demographic.

[Danzo]

39. True...

...that doesn't change any of the facts that I put forth though.

[cooolandrew]

13. Bill Clinton had 80 percent of African Americans give it up PLEASE.

Barack is ahead on talent and has not done it only on the AA vote or he wouldn't be ahead, seriouslly. You cant ignore the AA vote they are the base fo the party. So for HRC to dis them it is no surprise she lost bills base.

[Danzo]

28. Hmm...

...I don't recall Clinton running against any African American candidates his primary or general election.

[ingac70]

43. Bill wouldn't have been Pres. without the black vote, though. n/t

[mrreowwr_kittty]

65. John Kerry ran against Al Sharpton in the '04 primary and won the black vote.

Learn some history, moron.

[Danzo]

75. Nice Personal Attack

And it might have SOME validity if I had said that Barack won ONLY because of the African American vote. Unfortunately for you, I DIDN'T SAY THAT. I just said that his delegate lead would probably be smaller.

Either read my post more carefully, or have the decency not to misrepresent what I said.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[emilyg]

90. Where did he say that?

[Danzo]

98. Thank You.

That's correct that I never said that. Thank you for standing up for me.

[Danzo]

91. Interesting "Logic" There

I would think that the fact that I said that African Americans are a MAJOR VOTING BLOCK would be a pretty clear indication that I believe that their votes count A LOT (as they should).

[LittleClarkie]

48. Well, he was the first black president doncha know

or so it is said.

[samdogmom]

14. Wow!

As a WHITE person I find your post repulsive and wrong-headed!

I am so sorry for you!

[Danzo]

47. That's Because You're Intolerant

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

54. We Should All Be Intolerant Of Blatant Ignorant Racism. I'm Proud Of Her For Being Intolerant Of It.

Proud of her, yet ashamed of you.

[Danzo]

67. Blatant Racism?

All I did was point out that Barack's race is a SIGNIFICANT FACTOR in the election. If that sounds like "blatant racism" to you, then maybe you need psychiatric help.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

70. I Think It's Mighty Rude Of You To Have Not Wished Me A Happy Birthday, Since You Obviously Think I

was born yesterday.

I ain't buyin it pal. You don't even know Geraldine's real fucking last name. In fact, I think you're just using her as a catapult and as cover to get away with your racist tripe.

You ain't fooling me one bit. I condemn this thread and I condemn your mentality.

[Danzo]

87. Keep Being Stupid, Then...

...I guess you know me from one thread better than the people who have known me for YEARS know me.

Hey, I got a deed to some oceanfront property in Nebraska. Would you like to purchase it?

[samdogmom]

78. Guess what? Many...many people view Obama the same way they view Tiger Woods.

Bottom line--race NEVER enters the equation!!!! We see a gifted, well-qualified person before us and we respond. The man could be a Green Martian and it wouldn't matter--because we're not seeing his SKIN--GET IT?

We see the person beneath the SKIN!

Isn't this the way it should be in our country?

WHY ARE SO MANY TRYING TO KILL THE FIRST COLOR-BLIND ELECTION WE'VE HAD?????

(All I can say is thank you Hillary Clinton for setting our country back 20+ years in the equality realm....What a legacy you're promoting, Ms. Clinton!)

[AdHocSolver]

129. A more significant factor in a Clinton candidacy is all the people who are hostile to her...

and who would come out in huge numbers to defeat her should she be the Democratic Party candidate in the general election.

Clinton has been demonized for years by the right-wing. There is no way she can overcome this demonization. The Republicans would need only to ring the "Pavlovian" bell, and the people who would believe that Hillary "eats puppies for breakfast" will come out in droves to prevent her from becoming president. They would also knock out progressives down the line.

This is my biggest opposition to a Clinton candidacy. She would take down other Democrats with her.

On the other hand, I am truly amazed at Obama's ability to handle the garbage that has been thrown at him. While my first choice for president early on was John Edwards, I would enjoy seeing Obama blow John McCain and the Republicans out of the water.

By the way, if the super Democrats should hand over the candidacy to Clinton, despite Obama's popularity with the grass roots, that would be the end of the Democratic Party, because Clinton would more than likely lose the GE, and the grass roots Democrats will no longer tolerate the stab in the back from the DLC.

Howard Dean, with his bottom up, fifty state strategy, has given the Democratic Party one more chance to be a significant force in American politics. If the Clinton people steal the nomination from the best presidential candidate we have had in years, that will fracture the party irreparably.

[samdogmom]

57. Thanks!

I am intolerant of bigots and racists. I take your response as a compliment! I appreciate the affirmation of my character.

[Danzo]

132. I'm a bigot/racist?

Sounds like a personal attack to me.

[samdogmom]

201. Are you trying to go out with a bang or don't you have a clue?

Good Grief!

[Danzo]

206. I'm Getting Pissed On Here, So I'm Standing Up For Myself

Do you think I shouldn't have the right to do that?

[samdogmom]

212. Do you wear big white sheets with little eye holes covering yourself in your free time?

If you don't, then WHY ARE YOU GETTING PISSED? You are making no sense at all and you're just sounding like a complete bafoon...so blather on if you want...but it might be best to just stop the nonsense now and move on!

[Danzo]

220. Why Am I Getting Pissed?

Slander tends to be hot-button issue with a lot of people, myself included. I don't like being slanderously called a racist.

[Laelth]

16. I guess that's how Obama won Iowa and Wyoming.

The Democratic Party can not win without the votes of African-Americans. Just consider that, please.

More here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5086536

-Laelth

[Danzo]

33. You Misrepresented What A Said

All I said with that AT THE VERY LEAST the race would be closer. I never said that Obama wouldn't have some success in states with low African American populations.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth, though.

[Laelth]

55. Of course, you're right. Without blacks the race would be closer.

My point was this: so what?

We have to have African-American votes to win. We can't nominate HRC now. It's too late for that. We had better get used to the idea that BO will be the nominee and start supporting him.

Sorry if anything I wrote was inappropriate. Honestly.

:toast:

-Laelth

[Danzo]

99. Oh, OK. I Apologize For Yelling At You Then.

[quakerboy]

17. The flip side.

Apply your 4 statements to women instead of African Americans and Clinton instead of Obama.

What was the purpose of that comment by Geraldine? She added her little self deprecation, but did not apply it to Hillary, so far as I have been able to find.

So, while Geraldine's comments are technically correct, the spirit of them was clearly one of inciting racism in the pursuit of the goal.

On edit.. ya. Look at Bill C's AA vote percentages, as well. Its very informative to the context of it all, as well.

[Danzo]

114. What's The Purpose Of Her Comment?

From Geraldine's perspective? I can't read her mind, but my impression is that she just said it as a spontaneous answer to a reporter's question.

[quakerboy]

127. And why was the first spontaneous reaction

to belittle the achievements of another person, and a hypocritical way. And if it was purely spontaneous, why has she not backed away from it, or even attempted to explain it in a less confrontational way?

Seriously. For all that Obama's Reagan comment could come back, for all that Clinton's McCain comment will come back, this is the best sound bite we could hand the RW so far. The corollary to claiming that Obama is only where he is because of race is that Clinton is only where she is because of gender. And that is the RW's loves to do, what their sycophants eat with a spoon. And now a liberal, and an apparent hardcore Clinton supporter has handed them the way to say it without having to dirty their own hands as blatantly.

[DebJ]

18. Fact: : Obama could not have won with only the black vote.

[krawhitham]

25. Black people only make up what 13% of the population?

13% will never win a race

[Danzo]

42. Not By Itself

It can make a significant difference, though; especially in a closer race like this one.

[melody]

19. Why does this matter? n/t

[Danzo]

46. Because I Believe That The HYSTERIA Toward Ferrara Is Unfair...

...given that there's a strong FACTUAL basis for what she said.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

58. Oh Get Your Head Out Of Your Ass. For One, Her Name Is Ferraro, And Two, There's NO Factual Basis

for what she said.

You are making yourself look like a bigoted fucking fool here. Shame on you.

[Danzo]

103. No Factual Basis?

So I was INCORRECT that the African American vote tends to go to Obama?

[melody]

302. The female vote tends to go to Clinton ... what's your point?

If one factor is all that sways the vote, then why isn't Hillary winning? She represents half the population.

[melody]

191. There is no factual basis that is not arrived at with faulty logic steeped in racism

To suggest the only reason Barack Obama is where he is, is due to his race is belied by the
fact there are countless other more worthwhile (than the white candidates) candidates of color
who've never reached as far as he has. Obama is where he is due to a number of factors.

Is Hillary where she is, because she's a Clinton? I think the evidence for that is far more
striking.

[Danzo]

203. Depends on what "where he is" means

I think Barack's a very smart charismatic man and is a legitimately strong candidate. But if what Ferraro meant by "where he is" was Obama wouldn't be in the exact same position in terms of delegate count, I'm inclined to agree. Barack might still be leading the race, though.

[melody]

267. Hillary Clinton represents 50% of the population

If one factor is decisive, why isn't she the delegate leader/

[LakeSamish706]

20. I for one don't understand the premise of your post actually... Yep, Barack is black...

last time I checked. However, Clinton was supposed to be the recipient of the majority black vote in most of the states... Guess that back fired big time. So yup, Barack is winning and will win in November...

[Danzo]

190. I Didn't Hear That.

Hillary was supposed to get most of the African American vote? I didn't hear that.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. Allow Me To Correct You And Your Ignorant If Not Bigoted And Racist Bullshit.

You say he's gotten more of them. That's true. But tell me: Has he not lost some women because of Hillary? Has he not lost many white voters, especially those in the south but also elsewhere, due to his race? Can you possibly present the one side of the argument as you have without acknowledging the reality of the other side of it?

Try not to be so ignorant and bigoted. Open your fucking eyes. He's competitive and ahead (for now) because he's just simply damn good. The additional votes he's gotten are likely wiped away by the votes he's lost due to women identifying with Hillary and racists refusing to vote for him. Wake the fuck up, and try and keep this racist trip the fuck out of here, ok?

[Danzo]

59. You Have No Business Acting Like You Know Me

No one I work with would call me a racist. All I did in this thread was point out that there is SOME factual basis for what Ferrara said.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

73. There Is No Factual Basis For What She Said, And I Don't Give A Rats Ass What Your Coworkers Would

or wouldn't call you.

You ain't fooling me for a damn second with this bullshit.

[Danzo]

204. That Proves That You're Presumptious

What OTHER possible explanation is there that you claim to know me better than the people CLOSE to me know me?

[jmg257]

23. For some reason Ferraro needed to justify people voting for Obama instead of Hillary. It made

her crazy and very dissapointed. And (black) super-delegates supporting him REALLY pissed her off (she lashed out at them too.)

His race and sex were obvious excuses - instead of blaming Hillary & her negatives, she targeted Obama.

[Bread and Circus]

26. Do you have any idea of what "opportunity cost" means?

[Danzo]

207. Yes.

What's your point?

[niceypoo]

27. So what if they vote based on race...

Sure, lots voted for him because he is black, so what. Blacks have been treated like shit in this country, I can't blame them one bit for wanting a black president to deal with some of these issues, can you? I really dont see what is the big deal, and I really can't understand why Obama supporters feel they are obligated to worm and squirm in denial of it.

[AX10]

31. PC. that's why.

Obama and his supporters want the full support of the AA community without acutally admitting that they have to appeal to the AA community and risk looking like the so-called "black candidate".
According to most Obamites around here, you niceypoo are now a racist for saying what you said.

[EFerrari]

52. No, that's crap. Obama has the full support of the black community

and that scares the hell out of some people.

Does that make him the "black" candidate?

Apparently not. Ask Wyoming. Apparently the "black" candidate (thanks, Bill!) has several speeds.

[theboss]

124. Hillary Clinton will need 90 percent of the black vote in November to win

Any Democrat needs 90 percent of the black vote to win.

Are you going to bitch then?

[Danzo]

53. I Agree With You

"Sure, lots voted for him because he is black, so what. Blacks have been treated like shit in this country, I can't blame them one bit for wanting a black president to deal with some of these issues, can you? I really dont see what is the big deal, and I really can't understand why Obama supporters feel they are obligated to worm and squirm in denial of it."

I don't think that there's anything wrong with African Americans voting for Obama because of his African American ancestry, but I also don't think that the HYSTERIA that befell Geraldine Ferrara for POINTING IT OUT was justified.

[AX10]

62. That is what I was saying in my post below.

Obama and company don't want to hear any of this.
For them, the support Obama is receiving is pure because of his message of "hope and change".

[Saturday]

68. If you don't believe racism is right then you shouldn't believe that

reverse racism is right either. Obama's campaign is using reverse racism. As evidenced by Michelle saying "they'll come around" and Rev Wright's remarks.

[Danzo]

208. EXACTLY!

In order to move closer to a colorblind society, we must reject ALL forms of racism.

[ingac70]

29. Dems have always benefited from the black vote...

You forget that his votes to have the delegate lead he has right now comes from the fact whites voted for him, too.

[Danzo]

209. Oh No, I Don't Deny That

Barack has earned a ton of support from caucasions as well.

[OhioBlue]

30. You do realize what Ferraro's statement was really about

don't you?

It was intended to bring out that subconscious or not so subconscious racist attitude in a lot of white men (and women) that has been so deeply embedded and fed mostly by the right wing that opposes affirmative action.

[MichiganVote]

41. Nah, that's crap. I think she was just flapping her beak and she stuck her

foot in her mouth. Happens. Political season and all. Stupid, unfortunate and all that. Not much more.

[OhioBlue]

61. you're from MI

You have to see the same things I do in Ohio and hear the same comments from our white, blue collar friends and family. Your State has suffered the same job loss. I knew the moment I heard Ferraro make that statement what it was about.

[MichiganVote]

81. Indeed I do. :)

[Danzo]

69. Exactly

OhioBlue is stating as a FACT what Ferrara's intentions are. Congratulations on your mind reading ability, OhioBlue *rolls eyes*

[americanstranger]

71. She had numerous chances to clarify if that was the case.

But when she went on all those TV shows, she didn't try to clarify her remarks - she repeated them and even pushed them further.

If the initial remark was a mistake, why did she keep repeating that mistake?

- as

[MichiganVote]

77. Who gives a crap? Is she running for office? No? Then who cares?

[OhioBlue]

100. We care b/c we see a pattern

PA is a lot like MI and OH - those comments were meant to trigger those racist attitudes in PA blue collar, white voters.

We cannot let them run their campaign like this w/o calling them on it. It isn't who we are as Democrats. It isn't even what Bill & Hill are, I think they have just convinced themselves that everything is fair in love & politics and the ends justify the means. But they don't.

read this:

http://www.ohiodailyblog.com/content/racism-and-clintons-victory-ohio

[MichiganVote]

105. PA is not at all like MI and I should know, I've lived here all my life.

By trigger do you mean like subliminal messages that would cause out of work white AND black auto workers who have worked alongside one another for decades without a problem to cast off their aprons and put up their dukes or something?

Is there some wild scent encrusted racist sentiment we alone have buried in our subconscious that of course, the rest of the lilly white country has genetically eliminated?

You have nothing but a theory based on nothing but some belief you picked up with nary a thought to critical thinking of your own.

[OhioBlue]

126. PA is a lot like MI and OH

in the job loss and demographics, swing state.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/42000.html
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26000.html
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/39000.html

And yes, we do have racist attitudes that are not always known even to us. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scan-shows-how-brain-suppresses-latent-racism-735997.html

and no - the rest of the country isn't immune - she's just playing the demographics in States that she thinks she can win.

And yes, there are subliminal or not so subliminal phrases that trigger thoughts for us - that is why politicians have focus groups and work on "framing" messages.

[MichiganVote]

141. Focus groups are nothing but framing messages themselves. Never watch them myself.

And I grew up with racists. White, northern Michigan racists. Believe me, I know all my racist attitudes. So what? Its up to me whether I use them or not. I'm not powerless and neither are you and neither are others.

[OhioBlue]

151. of course they're not powerless

but the framing of messages works - and not everyone recognizes or even wants to acknowledge their racist attitudes. And some recognize and acknowledge but don't care.

[MichiganVote]

165. Then show them YOUR power. Show them the framing of the messages.

[OhioBlue]

179. I do - but I am not covered by every major

network and newspaper like Ferraro was.

[MichiganVote]

182. She is a blip on nothing. People in the US listen to people like them.

[samdogmom]

45. Thank you! This is the point and Clinton's campaign is behind it and promoting it

100 PERCENT!

It sickens me to think a Democrat would sink to this level, but....obviously some will! I truly think I'd have trouble EVER voting for someone with these horrible base strategies in their repertoire.

[OhioBlue]

153. I know exactly what you mean. n/t

[Whisp]

32. how substantial, what's the demographic... 12%?

just asking in a poll-ish way.

but I do have to say, there are a Lot whites that think like 'those Blacks'... maybe thats your 'problem'.

[Not the Only One]

36. If Obama were white, he'd be crushing Hillary everywhere 65-35.

The race would have been over on Super Tuesday after Barry O'Bama, the charming, charismatic, inspirational white man won all of Obama's actual states plus Arizona, California, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Tennessee.

[Awsi Dooger]

38. I was waiting for Ferraro to emphasize that angle

That Obama benefited from political math. That can't be disputed. Blacks have a long history of voting in surreal percentage, for party or candidate. It should have been obvious that a wildly popular black man had a massive potential boost toward the Democratic nomination. It simply never appeared likely, so the topic was mute.

However, Ferraro didn't go that route so I give her less benefit of a doubt. In the comments I read, she seemed to claim he was lucky to be a black man, or black politician. Apparently she meant lack of scrutiny but that's weak. He's winning via talent, and the accompanying 9-1 math. It took an extraordinary black candidate to reach a level where the math suddenly worked for him.

[EFerrari]

40. So, are you saying black people shouldn't have the vote or what?

[Danzo]

205. That's Not At All What I'm Saying.

I fully support the right of African Americans to vote, and I fully respect their decisions.

[Arugula Latte]

44. And Hillary's strength among older white women has NOTHING to do with her

being an older white woman.

[Danzo]

250. I Didn't Say That

[Radical Activist]

49. Hillary has gotten extra votes because she is white and a woman.

It happens. It doesn't diminish his lead unless you think black votes don't count.

And no they aren't just voting for him because of his color. Many black people supporter Clinton early because of her last name. They made a decision to support Obama after looking at both candidates.

[qazplm]

50. he'd still be in the lead

even you recognize that with all of the caveats you put in your post.

So yes, he would be in exactly the same position, he MAYBE wouldnt lead by as much, but he would be in exactly the same position.

Leading.

[Danzo]

246. Yes, I Said...

...that he MAY very well still be in the lead, despite the factors that I mentioned. That's correct.

[AtomicKitten]

51. Barack is black?

[EFerrari]

63. Again!

lol

[Danzo]

155. WOW! A LOT Of You Need Help With Reading Comprehension

I said on SEVERAL occasions in this thread that he's PART African American.

[EFerrari]

210. You're kidding! He's sorta BLACK? OMFG!

[Danzo]

218. That's Subjective

Some call him African American, others call him a person of mixed race.

Doesn't really matter, though.

[EFerrari]

221. It may not matter to you.

That doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

[Danzo]

243. I Said It Doesn't REALLY Matter

As in it doesn't matter THAT MUCH.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

60. And John Kerry would have lost by 17 points were it not for the black vote

Pretty sure Bill Clinton would not have made it through 2 elections without that vote either.

Do you have a problem when 80% of the black vote goes to a white Democrat?

[tabasco]

66. "Obviously, these citizens are voting for him because of his skin color"

That is some stupid, asinine writing right there. How the hell does the asshole know why they are voting for Obama. I am voting for Obama because I think he is the best leader and I assume that's why all his supporters are voting for him. To say they are voting for him because he is black is insulting, stupid, and reflects the writer's own ignorance.

Is that why they voted overwhelmingly for Bill Clinton? Because of his color?

[Botany]

72. Snort!

In that sense, I think Geraldine Ferrara is CORRECT that Obama wouldn't be in the same place as he is if he were a caucasion.

[tekisui]

79. Bullshit. Where would Hillary be without White voters.

This is a bullshit argument. You may not realize it, but Blacks are people, too. Making these arguments appear to cast a Black vote as less important than a White vote.

[EFerrari]

82. We need a Remedial Personhood Forum. n/t

[tekisui]

84. Those were just "black votes".....

Shit gets old.
:mad:

[EFerrari]

88. I asked the OP IF BLACK PEOPLE SHOULDN'T HAVE THE VOTE

but so far, no response. :shrug:

[tekisui]

94. Maybe they are torn between "no" and "3/5ths"?

[Danzo]

134. Sorry, Didn't See Your Post

I ABSOLUTELY believe that African Americans should be able to vote.

[Big Blue Marble]

85. If Obama were white he would have won Texas

and this would be over.

[Danzo]

93. What Do You Base That On?

[Big Blue Marble]

296. In both Texas and Ohio

as in Mississippi and Alabama, Obama lost votes because he is black. There
are still those who will not vote for a black person period.

His color definitely hurt him in Ohio and Texas. The race was close enough in
Texas, he could have won if race was not an issue there for him.

[milkyway]

86. Don't bother mentioning the votes he hasn't gotten because he's black. Just subtract

the black votes, keep the racist votes, and tell us how lucky he is.

[Danzo]

95. Why The Anger?

If you disagree with the VERACITY of what I said, why can't you just CALMLY rebut what I say?

[EFerrari]

96. Why are you avoiding our questions?

Do you think black people shouldn't have the vote?

David Duke, is that you?

[Danzo]

233. Yes...

...I ABSOLUTELY believe that blacks should have the right to vote.

No to your second question :)

[milkyway]

106. Huh? I'm clearly pointing out that you are only subtracting black votes from Obama that you say

he has gotten because he is black, yet you don't factor in the votes he has not gotten because he is black. Then you declare Ferraro is right--he wouldn't be where he is if he weren't black.

And if you think my post was angry, you're wrong. I'm not angry, I'm laughing at how ridiculous your nonsensical argument is.

[boppers]

89. You forgot one.

5. Obama worked to get the votes of the AA demographic in 50 states. Hillary couldn't be bothered to try for their vote until it was too late.

He may be black (I've heard rumors), but his campaign took the effort to fight for the AA vote. Barak's got signups on blackplanet, mybatange, and migente, Hillary doesn't. "Civil Rights" is the first issue in the drop-down on Barak's website, Hillary's is "Strengthening the Middle Class" (gee, I wonder which one appeals to the AA vote more?). Hillary built out a deep-pockets lobbying revenue stream, Barak appealled to the larger pool of majority and minority Americans who didn't have the money, or the access.

Rather than acknowledge this, she wants to push the tired racist meme that he didn't actually do all that ground work, somehow instead all he did was talk (it's one of her favorite memes, accusing him of "doin' the Shuck and Jive").

Since he keeps winning, it appears that one of them has been wrong about their judgement.

[Major Hogwash]

Keep using race to explain Obama's wins in Idaho, Washington, Utah, Maine, Vermont, and the other

states.

Please keep using race to explain it - because it defies logic!!!

Get a clue - we voted for Obama based on the issues - and Obama was against the Iraq War before Hillary even started her histrionic race for the White House.

[Danzo]

108. Another Straw Man Argument

I don't know how much clearer I could have been when I MERELY said that the election would be closer. The notion that I said that ALL his success was a result of being part African American is a notion that you pulled directly from you sphincter. In fact, I NEVER even said that MOST of Barack's success was due to being part African American.

[EFerrari]

116. Do you know what a strawman fallacy is?

And do you think posters to this board are too stupid to recognize bigotry when its posted in front of their faces?

[Danzo]

211. Sorry. I'm Right, You're Wrong

The guy I'm responding to implied that I said that Obama's heritage is the explanation for ALL the delegates he won, when I NEVER SAID THAT.

How is that NOT a straw man argument?

[EFerrari]

256. I think Geraldine Ferrara is CORRECT that Obama wouldn't be in the same place as he is if he were a

caucasion.

[Major Hogwash]

122. Straw man, my ass! And your racist rant is obvious.

Especially out here in the West.

We depend on our neighbors in the small communities to help each other -

WE DON'T ASK "WHAT COLOR ARE YOU?" BEFORE WE MAKE THE CALL FOR HELP!!!

[Danzo]

222. I'm From The West, Too, and I Help Out All My Co-workers...

...regardless of their ethnic / racial heritage.

What exactly is your point?

[alcibiades_mystery]

101. Why would you assume that black people vote solely on the basis of race?

What a bizarre thing to say.

You make the jump from "Obama's black" to "Black people vote for Obama" as if the middle step (really, the major premise of the syllogism) wasn't disputable as all get out.

[Danzo]

111. It's True Of SOME African Americans

That's all I'm saying. I'll also acknowledge that SOME women vote for Hillary just because she's a woman.

[EFerrari]

115. Is that code for "those black people vote for each other"?

Why are you so concerned with how some black people vote?

Do you vote?

[alcibiades_mystery]

152. Notice that it went from "the lion's share" to "some"

These "facts" have a tendency to deflate with a mighty pffffffft when subjected to even high school level scrutiny. The glaring major premise in the OP's sad little syllogism is clear to anyone with basic training in reasoning.

So, I wonder how many is "some."

15% of blacks voted solely on race?
30%

I would think you'd have to be somewhere over 60% to claim the "lion's share" (a very scientific term, no doubt!). So, since the OP is so good with so-called "facts," I'm sure we'll be getting a well articulated claim together with his methodology and evidence some time soon.

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

159. Racist code is racist code. Slippery, slimy and obvious. n/t

[Danzo]

255. Wrong.

I said in my original post that Obama got the lion share of the people who ARE African Americans, not who are African Americans AND vote primarily upon race.

[Danzo]

259. I'm Not Really Concerned...

...just pointing out that there is some veracity in what Ferraro said.

[alcibiades_mystery]

139. It seems like a negligible point, but I'll play

The "fact" that SOME black folks vote for Obama solely because he's black doesn't translate into "he's lucky he's black," much less Ferraro's other nonsense about being attacked for being white. That's just silly. Indeed, the whole thing is just silly.

But let's play along. How many is "some?" Should we attach any meaning to the FACT that you've migrated from "a lion's share" to "some?" What do you mean by "some?" You're the FACT guy, so give us something resembling a FACT. 15%? 30%? 65%? Please feel free to state the FACT and your accompanying methodology and evidence. You wanna get empirical? Let's do it. Make your case.


Inventing meaningless contra-factual scenarios (What if Obama wasn't black? Hmmm?) while purporting to present a series of incontrovertible "facts" (the first incontrovertible fact ever preceded with almost certainly, I'd wager...) is just a silly procedure from the jump. It's a dumb premise. The fact is that we have no idea how the thing would play out if it wasn't what it was. That's a fact. NO. FUCKING. IDEA. I'd even daresay it is the height of idiocy to contemplate such alternate universes when we're trying to talk seriously about this one.

[VolcanoJen]

107. This is a divisive and horrible approach.

Any Democrat knows that African-Americans make up one of the largest, most committed voting blocks within the Democratic Party.

We're clearly in uncharted territory here, fielding the most viable white female and African-American male candidates for President in history.

Were it any other year, one white male candidate or another would have secured enough of the bulk of the African-American block to have won the nomination. It's crucial to any Democratic nomination.

What's different about Obama is, well, he's African-American and the likely nominee. Anyone paying attention to this race before, say, October of 2007 would have known that there was much controversy within the African-American community over whether Barack was "black enough." Michelle Obama spoke eloquently to this issue, and then Iowa happened, and the AA community saw something that hadn't ever happened before... an overwhelmingly caucasian state chose Obama over a white southern former Senator, and, arguably, the most famous woman in America, a current Senator and former First Lady.

It was something of an earthquake, and the community began to solidify support behind him. In the same way the rest of the nation did, as evidenced by his current popular and delegate vote lead. But I fail to understand why the African-American voting block is stands out more than any other traditional Democratic voting block, be it white females, senior citizens, union voters, what have you.

If John McCain were a Democrat, would you be somewhat put off by the fact that he was winning the traditionally Democratic voting block of white retirees?

In any other year, this "challenge" you're making would seem ludicrous.

[Danzo]

109. Blame The Press....

...no one held a gun to their heads and told them to beat the story to death.

[VolcanoJen]

110. The press didn't author your challenge and post it on Democratic Underground.

You seem to be stepping back a little.

[Danzo]

125. Not At All...

...I just don't appreciate you telling me it's wrong (horrible and divisive) for me to express my opinion. Would you like me to send you PM and ask for your approval before I make my next thread?

[VolcanoJen]

135. Oh please

Your premise is what's horrible and divisive, it's nothing personal.

Are you interested in having a discussion on any of the other traditional voting blocks, or do you just wish to shout from a rooftop about the African-American block and then get snarky when someone calls bullshit?

[EFerrari]

112. Who held the gun to your head?

[johnnydrama]

113. it's the math

Even if your theory is correct, since there are many many more white people then black people, if only 5% of white people won't vote for him because he's black, his entire black vote difference is wiped out.

[Danzo]

119. Perhaps I AM Incorrect On Mathematical Grounds

You may have a point.

Thank you for respectfully disagreeing and rebutting my statement, rather than calling me vicious names as so many others have done.

[Steely_Dan]

117. This Thread is Completely Amazing...

I think it goes to the heart of much of the disputes on this board. Obviously the OP struck a nerve. Is there anyone here that did not see this coming? Some of the responses here don't even address the OP. Many are just angry knee-jerk reactions born of over-sensitivity. We made this bed. I guess where going to have to.....

-P

[EFerrari]

120. This thread should have been locked at the OP

which is complete bigoted bs.

That we don't recognize that doesn't reflect very well on us.

[bhikkhu]

121. Is there a point to this, other than more flamebaiting?

The point you seem to be making is absurd, as has been repeatedly said. Is it inconceivable that people vote for a person, and not a race or a gender?

For every argument of racism there is a counter-argument. Obama won SC by a big margin, but he also won Wyoming by a big margin. I see no point in reducing all things to race.

[Danzo]

180. "Is it inconceivable that people vote for a person, and not a race or a gender?"

Obviously, which is why I said that race and gender are merely FACTORS in this election.

[theboss]

123. So blacks should only vote as a monolithic block in the general election?

Do you realize that by advocating diversity in black voting patterns, you are essentially calling for the destruction of the Democratic Party. We get 90 percent of the black vote nationally. It is 20 percent of our base.

Without the black vote, Bob Dole is president in 1996.

You are a political idiot.

[Danzo]

130. Bull

I didn't say ANYTHING about how African Americans should vote in the general election. I didn't even say how African Americans should vote in THIS PRIMARY. All I did was point out how the African American vote TENDS to go in this primary.

[EFerrari]

131. Damn those "African Americans" for exercising their franchise.

[Danzo]

142. Your Words, Not Mine

[EFerrari]

149. Yours in essence.

How dare you question who the black community supports?

How dare you minimize the power of that voting block?

How dare you minimize the lives that have been lost defending that vote.

You should be ashamed of yourself. I certainly am ashamed for you.

[Danzo]

197. None Of Those Statements Are True

1. I don't "question" who the black community supports, I always fully respect their decision. I'm just saying that I believe that there's some truth to what Ferraro said.

2. MINIMIZE the power of the voting block? I'm pretty sure that I said it had a SIGNIFICANT impact on the delegate score.

3. Like I said, I fully support the African American person's right to vote.

4. The fact that you're ashamed for me is not my problem.

[EFerrari]

198. Your OP was FULL of support. I know.

Sell it to a buyer.

[theboss]

137. Well, thanks for pointing out this revolutionary fact

Blacks are voting for Obama.

You are on the cutting edge, sir.

How did you finding out this stunning information?

[Danzo]

174. Where Were You...?

...when all this HYSTERIA about Ferraro's comments was going around? Did you say something along the lines of "(to be fair Geraldine's comments have SOME basis in fact, even though I find them repugnant)?"

I doubt it.

[Oilwellian]

133. Please do me a favor...

if you're going to say you're an expert on Geraldine Ferraro's intentions, please learn how to spell her name correctly. Thanks.

Oh, and you're obviously completely ignorant of what the Ferraro dust-up is all about. It certainly wasn't about the votes he's getting from the black community.

On edit: and you can take your "zealot" comment and stick it.

[Danzo]

138. Really?

"Oh, and you're obviously completely ignorant of what the Ferraro dust-up is all about. It certainly wasn't about the votes he's getting from the black community."

OK, I'll bite. What was it REALLY about?

[VolcanoJen]

144. You cannot be serious.

What on earth...?

[AllentownJake]

145. STOP IT

So what? Is an African American vote any less than the vote of a white woman's vote or any other demographic groups vote?

A vote is a vote. This isn't 1800 an African American representation isn't 3/5.

[Danzo]

186. Never Said It Was

I agree that the African American vote counts as much any other demographics and SHOULD.

[AllentownJake]

146. STOP IT

So what? Is an African American vote any less than the vote of a white woman's vote or any other demographic groups vote?

A vote is a vote. This isn't 1800 an African American representation isn't 3/5.

[EFerrari]

160. Welcome to DU, Jake.

I wish I could welcome you on a saner thread.

[Spider Jerusalem]

147. I think that's a pretty moronic assertion.

Jesse Jackson didn't get 90% of the African-American vote. Al Sharpton didn't get 90% of the African-American vote. Carol Moseley-Braun didn't get 90% of the African-American vote. Shirley Chisholm didn't get 90% of the African-American vote. What does this make clear? THat Obama is getting these percentages of the African-American vote not JUST because of race, but because he is a VIABLE CANDIDATE. It's actually rather condescending and INSULTING to say 'well, it's obvious that black people are just voting for him because he's black'.

[Danzo]

150. Your Straw Men Arguments Are What's Moronic

"THat Obama is getting these percentages of the African-American vote not JUST because of race, but because he is a VIABLE CANDIDATE. It's actually rather condescending and INSULTING to say 'well, it's obvious that black people are just voting for him because he's black'."

Point out where I said RACE is the only reason Obama is winning. Point out where I said that African Americans vote for Obama JUST because he's black.

Are you being stupid or just dishonest?

[Spider Jerusalem]

154. Right there in your original post:

'Obviously, these citizens are voting for him because of his skin color, and many couldn't tell you significant things about the Illinois senator otherwise that deem him worthy to be considered for the presidency.'

now, are YOU being stupid or just dishonest?

[Danzo]

157. Where's the Word "Only" In Your Quote?

Nowhere. You misrepresented my original post.

[Spider Jerusalem]

158. No, you're misrepresenting it.

It doesn't need 'only' in there as a qualifier; that's implied by the content.

[Danzo]

167. Where does it say that ALL or even MOST Black Citizens Are Voting...

...for Obama based on his ethnicity? It DOESN'T. She just used the word "citizens".

[Spider Jerusalem]

168. 'Citizens' is referring to 'African-American voters' in the preceding sentence.

If your reading comprehension is really THAT bad, there's not much point in us having this conversation.

[Danzo]

170. Um..duh?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. She never said that ALL or even MOST African Americans voted for Barack based solely on his race.

[Spider Jerusalem]

172. Then you obviously can't read.

[Danzo]

177. No, I'm Correct

"Obviously, these citizens are voting for him because of his skin color, and many couldn't tell you significant things about the Illinois senator otherwise that deem him worthy to be considered for the presidency."

Like I said, the words "most" or "all" do not appear in that quote.

[Spider Jerusalem]

178. No, you're making contradictory and counterfactual assertions.

"...many of the Democratic voters in these states are African-American. Obviously, these citizens are voting for him because of his skin color..."

Requoted with context.

[Danzo]

181. "these citizens"...

Is a GENERALIZATION.

[Spider Jerusalem]

184. A generalisation of 'African-American voters',

Which states that they're voting for him because of his skin colour, full stop. Your lame attempts to argue that there's any other possible inference one could draw from that are absurd.

[Danzo]

187. You're PARTIALLY Correct...

...she's stating that SOME of those African Americans are voting for Obama because of his ethnicity.

[EFerrari]

196. Just about every competent racist I've ever known can parse just like this.

Well done.

[Danzo]

240. I Can't Say FOR SURE What The Author Meant

All I know for sure is that the words "all" and "most" don't appear in that quote.

[EFerrari]

254. I think Geraldine Ferrara is CORRECT that Obama wouldn't be in the same place as he is if he were a

caucasion.

[VolcanoJen]

161. Do you even get what "straw man argument" means?

:shrug:

[Danzo]

171. Yes.

[EFerrari]

173. No, it doesn't. n/t

[theboss]

162. Then is your point just to point out a statistic EVERYONE knows already?

Bill James, you are not.

[Danzo]

169. Are You Obama Fans Changing Your Tune?

Before you said that what Ferraro said was BASELESS? Now you're saying "duh" to the FACTS that I'm pointing out?

[theboss]

175. No, her point is idiotic

Her point was about white liberal guilt. Not black voting patterns.

[EFerrari]

176. Aren't your friends at Free Republic feeling neglected?

What "facts" are you talking about?

The black community supports the black community?

White Americans recognize a real leader?

What?

Don't your sheets need laundering?

[Danzo]

183. Another Personal Attack? Nice.

[EFerrari]

185. I have no problem contronting blatant racism.

I have no need to be nice.

[Danzo]

192. You Need A Reality Check...

...if you think that I'm a BLATANT RACIST.

[EFerrari]

194. Nope. I've seen you and yours many times.

Enjoy it when Obama sweeps in November. :)

[Danzo]

215. "(me and mine)"?

Wow, if that isn't a form of stereotyping, I don't know what is.

[EFerrari]

219. Don't think of it as stereotyping.

Think of it as affectionate recognition.

[Danzo]

226. I Think Of It As Hypocrisy

You falsely accused ME of being a bigot, and then you STEREOTYPED me.

[EFerrari]

237. I think Geraldine Ferrara is CORRECT that Obama wouldn't be in the same place as he is if he were a

caucasion.

[rodeodance]

274. Was Ferraro Right?

http://news.aol.com/political-machine /


Was Ferraro Right?
By Faye Anderson

Mar 13th 2008 5:22PM

Filed Under: Democrats

In the real world, a gaffe happens when someone is caught in an awkward situation. But it's been said in politics, a "gaffe is when a politician tells the truth."

While Hillary Clinton has apologized for Geraldine Ferraro's racially offensive remark about Barack Obama, Ferraro says "it was a statement of fact, and that's it, nothing more and nothing less."

Political blogger Mickey Kaus thinks Ferraro was right: "She's not arguing that he's where he is because black voters are caught up in identity politics--more the opposite, that white and black voters alike are caught up in the idea of ending identity politics. Nor does she seem to be arguing it's wrong to be at least temporarily "caught up" in this concept. But the concept wouldn't be there if Obama was white."

Kaus observes: "If Obama were white, he wouldn't embody hopes of a post-racial future. Duh! That's part of his appeal. It seems obvious. Why does Obama dispute it? Why isn't Ferraro allowed to acknowledge it?"

[VolcanoJen]

195. Duh.

Duhhhhhhhhh slobber blarrrgggghh.

Refute something. I beg of you.

[EFerrari]

164. Are you being stupid or just dishonest?

[rodeodance]

278. OP does not live in a bublle --even Jim Lehrer was discussing this issue tonight. Wake up

[Political Heretic]

148. The majority of Obama's vote is WHITE.

:shrug:

He had to overcome more to acheive that feat.

[Danzo]

163. ANOTHER Straw Man Argument

I said that Obama's ethnicity was A FACTOR not THE REASON why he's winning. Is too complicated to understand?

[EFerrari]

166. I think Geraldine Ferrara is CORRECT that Obama wouldn't be in the same place as he is if he were a

a caucasion.

That's what you said.

Go away. We don't welcome racist bullshit here.

[Political Heretic]

193. Of course its A FACTOR. It's more OBSTACLE than BENEFIT

That's my point.

PS - if you really want to get into the subject of logical fallacies and cognitive biases, which I teach classes on, I'd be happy to.

It's not a straw man argument. I haven't proposed a counter argument, I've simply stated a proposition.


And my point, which has relevance, is that race is a hindering factor, not a helpful factor in American politics.

[VolcanoJen]

200. Stop already with "straw man"

Straw man does not = arguments in which you can not coherently respond to

I'm also sick of the phrases "think outside the box" and "throw him/her under the bus," but that's beside the point.

Edit: Oh, and also "I Drink Your Milkshake"

[Danzo]

213. Sorry Jen

But people keep implying that I made arguments that I actually DIDN'T and then they knock these fabricated premises down. That's EXACTLY what a straw man argument is.

Just because you don't AGREE with me doesn't mean that I'm not aware of what a straw man argument is.

[EFerrari]

216. People keep implying you said what you said.

"I think Geraldine Ferrara is CORRECT that Obama wouldn't be in the same place as he is if he were a caucasion."

[Danzo]

224. Yeah, Not In The Same Place In Terms Of Delegate Lead

[EFerrari]

239. Right. Just in terms of what you've posted.

[jgraz]

232. .

[VolcanoJen]

228. See, I hate when people use turns-of-phrase wrongly

It's just a pet peeve.

It's not a straw man until someone makes up a phony argument. Everyone I've seen on the thread has made a credible argument that you have yet to refute.

Sure, everyone's throwing it at you, but the thing is, they're arguing with your original premise. And instead of taking that on and defending your position, you're playing the "straw man" card. Just go all all in and, if you want to, defend your original argument, that the race would be closer if Obama weren't black.

Gack! Another of my hated phrases is the "playing the (insert offended party here) card."

[Danzo]

230. You're Showing Your Intolerance Toward Me Again

"It's not a straw man until someone makes up a phony argument. Everyone I've seen on the thread has made a credible argument that you have yet to refute."

Interesting language that you're using there. You could have said that you respectfully disagree with my opinions, instead you tell me that I HAVE FAILED to refute other people's arguments.

Why do you feel a need to insult and berate me so much?

[VolcanoJen]

251. Ohfergawdssake

Victim, much?

You start an intentionally divisive thread, and then scream "Straw Man!" everytime someone effectively refutes your initial, ludicrous argument (my own can easily be found at post #109 in this thread which now has far more responses that it ever deserved), and now you want me to apologize for insulting you?

This has dissolved into nothing but flamebait. Let it be. You have yet to defend the claim that started this runaway-beer-truck of a thread.

[Name removed]

214. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Danzo]

225. Hillary is Genetically Inferior?

You just engaged in bigotry YOURSELF.

[PerfectSage]

245. You say bigotry I say sarcasm

Why is it bigotry when a genetically/racially superior Aryan like Barack Obama, defeats his genetically/racially inferior nigger opponent, Hillary? She obviously must come from genetically inferior racial stock. :rofl: Blame her defeat on her genetically inferior parents. :rofl:

Obama, is the genetically superior candidate. and your a genetically inferior bigot if you can't figure it out. :rofl: And so on and so on and so on. Is the cognitive dissonance kickin' in yet? :rofl:

[Danzo]

257. It's All Because Of Genetics? Genetics Is Everything, Huh?

Most scientists disagree with that.

[PerfectSage]

270. All nutty right wing genetically inferior christian "Fellowship" cultists like Hillary...

...know that power is everthing. :rofl:

So what do scientists say is everything? At the beginning of the big bang Hillary's ego expanded into all local and non local spacetime and will expand and rule infinitely for ever and ever, amen? :rofl:

[mattclearing]

217. Can you deny that saying that his success has more to do with his race than

anything else is racist?

If someone said Hillary was only where she is because she's a woman, she'd be rightfully outraged, something the Obama campaign has pointed out.

It would be more accurate to point out that Hillary would not be where she is were she not married to Bill Clinton.

[Danzo]

229. Mischaracteriztion

I didn't say he would be successful if his race were different, just that it has AN EFFECT on the final delegate count. Like I said, Barack might even still be leading if it weren't for the race factor.

[mattclearing]

269. It wasn't an issue until Bill Clinton tried to turn Obama into Jesse Jackson.

That was when black people dropped the Clintons en masse. The Clintons calculated that if they could make Obama the black guy, then whites would abandon him for Hillary and blacks would rally around him, and Clinton would win based on the racial makeup of the Democratic electorate. Unfortunately for them, there are white people who see what they are doing and don't like it.

[Jim Sagle]

223. They can deny that water is wet if it helps The Cause.

[Danzo]

227. Not Only That...

...but they think that I'm an evil person just for pointing out that water is wet. I didn't even say that there was anything WRONG with water being wet.

[EFerrari]

262. You don't get to hide behind code.

Too bad.

[jgraz]

234. What I want to know is

Who is Geraldine Ferrara and what the FUCK is a caucasion??

I know: it's the subatomic particle that gives dumbass white people their sense of entitlement.

[Danzo]

236. CLASSLESS

I don't consider myself "entitled." You have no business making a personal attack like that.

[EFerrari]

241. I think Geraldine Ferrara is CORRECT that Obama wouldn't be in the same place as he is if he were a

caucasion.

[jgraz]

249. Actually, if he were a subatomic particle he wouldn't have a definite location

So yeah, she's kind of correct.

[EFerrari]

252. You are way too generous.

lol

[jgraz]

242. Did anyone call YOU a dumbass white person with a sense of entitlement?

Hmmm... I guess that shoe fit pretty well. :shrug:

[CreekDog]

235. do blacks voting for him because of race outnumber whites voting against him b/c of race?

of course you don't know, how could you know. to assume you do means you think blacks vote based on race more than whites.

ergo, let's talk about your prejudices.

ummmkay? :hi:

[Danzo]

238. Never claimed that was the case

I never claimed that it was a fact African Americans vote on race more than whites do. You pulled that directly out of your ass. And with a dorky, passive aggressive tone, no less.

[EFerrari]

244. I think Geraldine Ferrara is CORRECT that Obama wouldn't be in the same place as he is if he were a

caucasion.

[PerfectSage]

261. Your understimating Obama. He's got more politcal.asshole game than Ferraro ever had.

I think Obama is CORRECT that Geraldine Ferrara wouldn't be in the same place as she is if she weren't a
Caucasian.

[EFerrari]

265. I wouldn't want to field a team against him.

:)

[CreekDog]

260. prima facie

when you make a prima facie case if you don't intend it to be so, you should show a plausible reason that what you are presenting is not what it seems.

you didn't. now that's passive aggressive.

i am an ass, that's true and this came out of it. :hi:

[davidinalameda]

247. how can anyone defend that racist

go back under your bridge

or back to the Hillary HQ

wherever you came from

[Danzo]

253. Another Personal Attack

I'm a troll for stating my opinion apparently.

[davidinalameda]

266. you're a troll for defending racism

[rodeodance]

279. Social facts--the demographics are not racial. Get real.

[Warren Stupidity]

294. "Obama Zealot"

Your headline is flamebait. You were asking for a fight and you got it. That makes you a troll.

[rodeodance]

272. Race is a factor in this primary---why deny it? Its there for objective people to discuss.

[davidinalameda]

273. and which side has made the biggest issue out of it

hint-it isn't Obama's

[rodeodance]

277. Open you eys and bee---BO has racialized this campaign.

[davidinalameda]

284. he has?

silly me

I thought it was Bill Clinton who fired the first shots in South Carolina and Geraldine Ferraro who picked it up and ran with it

please tell me how Obama "racialized" this campaign

[rodeodance]

286. too bad you don't have star--then you could search DU---lots of post on this fact.

[davidinalameda]

301. since you have one

why don't you just give me the links

and is your no star comment supposed to imply something?

[casus belli]

271. It's easy to justify words after the fact

And you can parse whatever meaning you want out of those words. The problem is that it's not one isolated incident of Gerry "mis-speaking". She appears to have a pattern of questioning how viable an African American candidate would be if he weren't an African American. Her comments not only are misguided, they are flat out wrong.

[rodeodance]

283. her problem was the timing. BO had racialized this primary and to discuss

this issue was too politically charged.

[rodeodance]

275. "Why does Obama dispute it? Why isn't Ferraro allowed to acknowledge it?"

When will America be ready to discuss this issue?---instead of being demonized?

http://news.aol.com/political-machine /


Was Ferraro Right?
By Faye Anderson

Mar 13th 2008 5:22PM



In the real world, a gaffe happens when someone is caught in an awkward situation. But it's been said in politics, a "gaffe is when a politician tells the truth."

While Hillary Clinton has apologized for Geraldine Ferraro's racially offensive remark about Barack Obama, Ferraro says "it was a statement of fact, and that's it, nothing more and nothing less."

Political blogger Mickey Kaus thinks Ferraro was right: "She's not arguing that he's where he is because black voters are caught up in identity politics--more the opposite, that white and black voters alike are caught up in the idea of ending identity politics. Nor does she seem to be arguing it's wrong to be at least temporarily "caught up" in this concept. But the concept wouldn't be there if Obama was white."

Kaus observes: "If Obama were white, he wouldn't embody hopes of a post-racial future. Duh! That's part of his appeal. It seems obvious. Why does Obama dispute it? Why isn't Ferraro allowed to acknowledge it?"

[KoKo]

288. Good Point....n/t

[rodeodance]

281. "BO nomination would immediately erase 400 years of while guilt"--so says

someone on Jim lehrer news hour. actually it a quote from a discussant on his show.

But i have heard this said many times during this campaign. lehrer news hr. touched on this Friday evening

[GeorgeGist]

287. Can any of you Clinton zealots accept that the following fact is irrelevant?

Caucasian Americans make up a THE MAJORITY of voters in America.

[jeffrey_X]

289. 13% of the population is substantial?

OK.

[Warren Stupidity]

292. It certainly explains how he won Iowa and came within

8,000 or so votes of winning in New Hampshire. Those two states are around 95% 'white' whatever that bullshit demographic happens to mean. Your post is crap. Your post count does not merit posting flamebait such as "You Obama Zealots". Did I mention that your post is crap? Let me expand on that: your post is racist flamebait troll crap. Welcome to DU.

[Medusa]

298. So what are trying to say? Black people and their votes don't matter?

That white votes count for more? :shrug:

If he wasn't winning the black vote, the Clintonistas would be screaming at the top of their lungs, "He can't even win the black vote". Stop cherry-picking. It's getting quite tiresome.

[Danzo]

303. OOPS! Looks Like The Data Proves Me CORRECT!

I stated that African American vote had a significant impact on the race, and I've been proven CORRECT by the exit poll data from the Mississippi primary. I heard on Weekend Update on Saturday Night Live that Obama won about 90% of the African American vote and about 25% of the white vote in Mississippi. But in fairness to you Obama zealots, I looked it up to see if they were accurate. They WERE. As you can see for yourself, Obama won Mississippi despite garnering only 26% of the white vote, but 92% of the African American vote: http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/epolls/#MSDEM

And the record, I NEVER said that there was ANYTHING wrong with the way blacks or whites choose to vote; even though some of you FRAUDULENTLY called me a racist.

I've just PROVEN that racial voting patterns can significantly impact an election, which was my premise right from the outset of this thread.

Game over, people who attacked me!

[not_too_L8]

304. I can deny any advantage ...

When considering the womens vote going to Hillary

[meow mix]

308. sure. i deny them nt

[reflection]

312. Gimme a break.

If I were black and the first legitimate (sorry, Jesse) black candidate was emerging in the primaries, I'd probably vote for him/her also. It's like not there has been a plethora of black Presidential candidates to choose from. From my perspective, if HRC had not been so eager to race bait earlier, she might have kept some of that black vote. Bad call on her part.